WTH?! Getting double and triple taps with US Trigger

[nictra]

Have an FSE trigger group. I made sure to clean the lower real well and make sure the trigger group wasn't dirty. Went out again today and still does it. Can't duplicate it if I wanted to, just random boom boom boom. Gotten to the point where I'm jerking the trigger to get my finger away!

Is there a fix or should I just toss it and go with surplus?

Specs:

G1 kit built on Coonan, FSE trigger group in G1 lower.

THX!

[big dee]

seems to happen alot with FSE's, especially earlier versions. I replaced my FSE hammers with surplus- no more problems.

[2barearms]

Originally Posted by big dee

seems to happen alot with FSE's, especially earlier versions. I replaced my FSE hammers with surplus- no more problems.

Be very careful mixing US parts and Surplus parts. The FSE M2 stuff
had lots of problems. Mark may know if they are fixable or not.

[Exit308]

How do the M3s compare? I just picked up a set in a complete lower and haven't used them yet.

[PASHOOTER]

I had the same problem with FSE hts. I put in a IMBEL hammer and that solved the problem so far. I have three FSE hammers, so if anyone knows how to fix them I would like to have it done. Looks to me were the sear catches the hammes is cut wrong.

[gunplumber]

The problem is the reset angle on the trigger (wall going up to the disconnnector shelf). It is 3 degrees. It needs to be 0 degrees. I skim it on the mill with a 1/8" carbide cutter. That's the first issue.

The second issue may or may not be present, or may only be present in conjunction with a DSA selector.

The trigger can be pulled too far to the rear - same as if the selector was in the FA mode. Problem is the lug on the back of the trigger is not long/tall enough or the clearance in the DSA selector is too deep, or a combination of the two. Easiest workaround is to put a blob of weld in the selector notch, favoring the end that is forward in the fire position. Then install. The trigger should not be able to fire. File down until it just fires. My guess is this will be about the thickness of 2 boxcutter blades, or .040"

[LaConservationist]

The problem is.....IT is US made JUNK!!
Yes you must play the 922R BS game BUT please keep SAFETY in mind FIRST!!

Gas Piston, Furniture, charging handle, mag parts.....receivers if you like......
OF course the ORIGINAL "US MADE" HTS from DSA works very nice also.....and I have the paper work that says it USA made.....so it MUST BE.....

KEEP SURPLUS OEM HTS!!!
Just my .02!!

LaC

[GMB74]

Mine would occasionally not reset, and frequently the hammer would drop when I let the bolt fly home to chamber a single round. If I was feeding the first round off a full mag, it would work OK. Apparently the bolt dragging across the next round in the full mag would slow it down a little and not jar the hammer out of the sear. I replaced the hammer with a factory one and have had no further problems. It was a FSE M3 set.

[gunplumber]

I've installed thousands of them. Had a few issues with a small number of them. Easily fixed once identified. Hardly junk.

But yes, the Austrian ones that DSA ground off the Austrian proof marks and stamped "US Made" are the best. Even the ones where they forgot to grind off the Austrian proof marks. Whoops! Their StG flash hiders with the cleverly and perfectly reproduced Belgium proof marks were very nice as well.

[ExCdnSoldierInTx]

Maybe a topic question, but,...

If he's getting unwanted multiples, why is he not blowing up his rile with an OOB boom?

I understand what the safety sear did to prevent that, but without it, isn't that an accident waiting to happen?

Mark,

Does the same thing happen with the Commnwealth, or just the Metric?

[gunplumber]

huh?

some FSE M2 hammers were overly hardened and brittle. Harold made the mistake of trusting people and replaced more hammers than he sold.

Some of the M3s had the reset angle off.

A very small number of the M3s had the limiting lug cut too low in the back.

Not aware of any issues with the inch

[ronbuell]

So Mark,
If a DSA HTS doubles, does that mean the problem could be the same issue? Reset Angle on the hammer. I'm using the selector that came with the kit. The stock HTS works normally.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by ronbuell

So Mark,
If a DSA HTS doubles, does that mean the problem could be the same issue? Reset Angle on the hammer. I'm using the selector that came with the kit. The stock HTS works normally.

I have not seen the reset angle as an issue with a DSA trigger. Just that it can be pulled too far to the rear. same fix - lug on back of trigger or corresponding surface on selector. I opt for the latter 'cause it also eliminates overtravel for superior felt trigger pull.

[ronbuell]

OK thanks Mark, I see, that makes sense now. I noticed a difference in the trigger once it was installed, but I couldn't tell what it was. At first I thought it was drag on the sides of the trigger since the stock unit shows wear marks on the sides, and the width is a couple of thou narrower. Glad I didn't do anything to it.

Didn't intend to hijack the original post, so my apologies. But HTS issues are interesting, and I noticed this is a teachable moment for me.

[PASHOOTER]

What about the Falcon Arms HTS. The kit I used for my last build came with a set installed. Have had no problems with doubling or reset, but the trigger pull is very heavy. Had no luck with the Falcon trigger pull reduction kit.

[gunplumber]

Falcon h/t/s is pretty rough with the casing line crossing the engagement points, and an excessive sear rake. It is serviceable with some cleanup. Square the sharp edge on the sear nose until when pulling the trigger it does not move to the rear before releasing (neutral rake).

[mp]

Careful. Gunplumber will call everyone else's faulty parts "junk" and call those that brought them to market "f-ckin idiots", but he will never talk bad about Harold and FSE. They are buddies, don't you know?

[Arizona Dog]

Originally Posted by mp

Careful. Gunplumber will call everyone else's faulty parts "junk" and call those that brought them to market "f-ckin idiots", but he will never talk bad about Harold and FSE. They are buddies, don't you know?

Come on MP,
If you’re goin to make a smart-ass comment, at least contribute something to the thread.

Put a Falcon hst in my rhodie and the casting on the trigger was so rough, it would not clear the selector.
AD

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by mp

Careful. Gunplumber will call everyone else's faulty parts "junk" and call those that brought them to market "f-ckin idiots", but he will never talk bad about Harold and FSE. They are buddies, don't you know?

Not sure if you have some agenda or if you are just stupid (or maybe both?).

I was pretty specific in outlining the problems with some of the FSE M2 hammers (which Harold replaced) and some M3 triggers. So I'm not sure what you are referring to . . . .

. . . .ooh, I remember you now - you complained in the thread on para recoil springs.

I pointed out that Falcon springs are fundamentally defective - they don't work because they are 30% weaker - but he sells them anyway because he is a cheat and a crook.

When Harold found he had sold bad hammers, he replaced them all. In fact, more people called him for free replacements than had bought them in the first place.

And that's the same?

You're such a dork . . . ..

[ExCdnSoldierInTx]

The entertainment value alone here is worth the price of admission....

bunch o'chilluns

[mp]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Not sure if you have some agenda or if you are just stupid (or maybe both?).

I was pretty specific in outlining the problems with some of the FSE M2 hammers (which Harold replaced) and some M3 triggers. So I'm not sure what you are referring to . . . .

. . . .ooh, I remember you now - you complained in the thread on para recoil springs.

I pointed out that Falcon springs are fundamentally defective - they don't work because they are 30% weaker - but he sells them anyway because he is a cheat and a crook.

When Harold found he had sold bad hammers, he replaced them all. In fact, more people called him for free replacements than had bought them in the first place.

And that's the same?

You're such a dork . . . ..

There we go...the cheat and crook list of person's who have wronged the gunplumper.

As for value to the post, my FSE HTS sets occasionally double, and fail to cock, even with the new replaced hammers.

But I can't replace them with Falcon sets, because gunplumber says Falcon Arms is a f-ckin idiot, a cheat, and a crook.

Can't replace it with DSA, because the gunplumber says their quality control sucks, and they are just remarking Austrian parts anyways, and everyone knows Dave S is a crook and a cheat.

Can't use ANYTHING from Entreprise, because according to the gunplumber anything that Enterprise touches is total shit and will blow up in your face. And the owner is a cheat and a crook--ripped off the gunplumber back in 1989!

Century Arms US made HTS? Are you kidding me? The gunplumber says that although they are a bunch of monkeys and produce shit product after shit product. They are just a bunch of crooks looking to take your hard earned money! But gunplumber would be happy to fix all their mistakes, for a nominal fee of course!

And I can't use the foreign original HTS parts because i have to remember to juggle 922r and stay out of prison (not the gunplumber's fault.)

So that leaves me with the gunplumber's recommendation, and self admitted "buddy," Harold Shinn at FSE. Gunplumber and FSE have collaberated on many projects, and has not yet cheated the gunplumber and become a crook, so his products are the best. And the fix is so easy--mearly fire up the ole Bridgeport mill in the garage, chuck up a 1/8 carbide endmill, and face that pesky FSE disconnector to 0 degrees! Too easy!

Also, I find the odds astronomical that me, nictra, big dee, pa shooter, and gmb74 from just this post have all had FSE M2/3 issues, yet you have sold and installed thousands of FSE HTS and only found a handful that had issues? But the gunplumber is the chosen one with the magical touch.....and don't you forget it! Say anything otherwise, and you too will be a liar, cheat, and a crook!

I will continue to work through my occasional FSE issues, but not because the gunplumber told me too. Harold and FSE earned huge respect when they recalled their sub standard parts, and I will continue to support them even when Mark decides to put them on the cheats and crooks list.

[gunplumber]

Moral ambiguity - expected from you, but not from me.

First, you are lying. I am very specific about my comments. Any time I post something negative, I have in mind "can my assertions withstand a libel or defamation lawsuit?" Absolutely. That's why I stick with the FACTS and when I present my opinion, I differentiate it from the facts.

DSA sold Austrian fire control groups remarked as US made. I had many come through my shop that were different than previous ones. Previous DSA hammers, for example, were obviously cast, and the mold mark on the right front at the full auto sear notch was unique to the DSA. "Unique" means it differentiated it from other cast hammers. Then I receive DSA hammers that are machined. Hmmm. Since the major cost of casting is in the molds, and the per unit cost is low, why would DSA change? So I examined the hammers closely. I noticed machining that was exactly like the Austrian - except in one or two spots where the Austrian proof mark would normally be found. This spot - right top, and/ or inside recurve, showed an additional machine mark that was not on the original and coincided with removing the proof mark. Then I found some where DSA had marked them "US Made" but neglected to remove the Austrian proof mark.

I posted a picture for peer review. I had DSA's guido threaten to kick my ass (funny, he never showed up) and I had plenty of people say nasty things about me . . . but nobody disputed the image.

There were also DSA short StG flash hiders where they forgot the Belgians stamped them on the front, not the rear, where they cut off the Austrian mark.

So with some irrefutable evidence that DSA remarked imported parts, how is it inaccurate for me to characterize this behavior as dishonest?

I'm used to it. I called out George Gouger as a fraud, and took a lot of flack. Until everyone else eventually realized he was a fraud and it became "common knowledge".

Same with Solstice Arms (Gary Gucciano). I called him out as a fraud. A particular webmaster was deleting any negative posts about him. I noted that such behavior was making the webmaster a part of the crime. I am banned from the website. Years later, it becomes common knowledge and the Attorney General gets involved. I wonder where all the people who flamed me went? Now they are saying how GG was a fraud. No apologies to me.

Then there was Lancaster Arms - Chet Durska. I called him out as a fraud. Oh the wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'm just jealous and badmouthing my so-called "competition". Years later the AZ Attorney General indicts him for fraud and requires he pay $70,000 in restitution. Where are the apologies? None. Now it is just "common knowledge."

I could go on and on.

My analysis is worth exactly what one pays for it. Apparently you have some special love for Falcon. I point out that his para springs are 30% less powerful than factory and if you install them in your gun, your gun will malfunction. I also note that Falcon KNOWS this and continues to sell them, and is therefore a crook. You whine about me saying so . . . but don't dispute the accuracy of my statements.

I build guns. I have made small parts like flash hiders from time to time, but for the most part I use those parts made by others. That is, my business relies on other people making quality parts. I have a selfish interest in others making good parts. It costs me time, money and labor when someone makes bad parts. So it should be pretty obvious that I benefit from Falcon making good parts and it costs me when they make bad parts. Problem is, I'm honest and won't pretend black is white just to placate the whining ninnies.

So I guess your post only shows that

1. You are a liar, because you accuse me of things I have not done. You also accuse me of things that I gleefully take credit for, but I have no issues with that.

2. You endorse known liars and cheats.

[ExCdnSoldierInTx]

Gonna grab some popcorn and a cold beer, get in my Bark-o-lounger, put my feet up, kick off my shoes, and watch the comedy hour here...

Cain't we all just git along?

[kysjck]

I've used 2 of the M4 HTS sets for years and can't find any problems with them. Any maker of these parts can have QC issues. My SAR48 came from Imbel with trigger that had a rounded reset notch and would double. Never saw another Imbel trigger with the same defect, but I used an inexpensive STG set to fix it.
I repaired a friend's FAL with a horrible trigger pull, that had a Falcon HTS. The Falcon was so rough it made Century look good. Since neither of us built the rifle I used another $10 STG set. Now he loves his rifle.
Has Falcon improved their quality? Inch HTS are getting harder to come by and 922s compliance for inch rifles is already difficult. The Century hammer and sear are fixable but if Falcon hasn't improved quality there isn't an option.

[kbahus]

I keep reading about the different models of FSE hammers, what would the model be if it is just marked FSE USA? I don't see any other markings. Is it GTG?

[homelandprotector]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Moral ambiguity - expected from you, but not from me.
1. You are a liar, because you accuse me of things I have not done. You also accuse me of things that I gleefully take credit for, but I have no issues with that.

2. You endorse known liars and cheats.

[saigamantx]

So....did the question get answered?........

[nictra]

Well now.....


Anyway, a member here is selling me an OEM Belgian set. I will report on that after I get it and install it.

[mp]

Originally Posted by saigamantx

So....did the question get answered?........

Nope. The gunplumber will continue to rant and rave about the cheats and crooks he has routed out and run off to be pounced on by the Attorney General, but will ignore the defective FSE parts.

I have no particular fascination with Falcon Arms. In fact, I have never done business with him, nor do I plan to do business with him in the near future. But I AM fascinated by the gunplumbers egotistical manifestation that I get to watch unfold on the Files on a daily basis.

Here's an idea. Quit bitching about everyone else's US made parts, raise some capital and buy FSE's not quite perfect HTS set or help Harold fix the issues which you have already identified, and market the 5th generation perfect, drop in, gunplumber created and stamp of approval, put everyone else out of business metric guaranteed made in the US of A, from US sourced steel, best in the world HTS set. Or keep bitching about all the other folks who actually provide us all not quite perfect HTS sets, and continue to perpetually remind us about Gary Guciano, and George Gouger, and Williams Arms, and Lancaster Arms, and the multitude of other gunsmiths you have personally put out of business.

[gunplumber]

Maybe I'm wrong (shutup Shlomo). Maybe you are not a willful liar - maybe you're just too f-cking stupid to comprehend basic English. Naaah, I don't buy it. You're just a bold-faced liar - you can't fulfill your fantasy of "getting me" through facts, or reasoned dialog, so you revert to repeating the same lies in the hopes the repetition will somehow make it stick.

I think that's good example of "trolling."

Whatever you or anyone else may think of me personally, it a rare instance where anyone can demonstrate me factually incorrect.

I'm just awesome that way!

[Spktyr]

Originally Posted by mp

Or keep bitching about all the other folks who actually provide us all not quite perfect HTS sets, and continue to perpetually remind us about Gary Guciano, and George Gouger, and Williams Arms, and Lancaster Arms, and the multitude of other gunsmiths you have personally put out of business.

Hm, so somehow gunplumber caused all those people to conduct business in an illegal manner, produce substandard product, annoy their customers enough that they had criminal charges brought against them, then oversaw the prosecutions.

Yeah, I'm thinking no.

Also, it's not about "not quite perfect" parts, it's about "parts not fit for purpose" as the British would say.

[RT]

mark please post the pic of the dsa hts with the proof mark please

[Spktyr]

This was the URL for the photo back then, but since 2009 he's redone his website and there doesn't seem to be a /wp/ directory any more:

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...aldsahts10.jpg

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by Spktyr

This was the URL for the photo back then, but since 2009 he's redone his website and there doesn't seem to be a /wp/ directory any more:

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...aldsahts10.jpg

there is, but now it is wp (web pictures) /ak , /fal, /hk.


http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...shammer-04.jpg

[RT]

mark thank you for posting the pic,-----Dsa should be ashamed for doing shit like that, people could get PRISON for that........

[Spktyr]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

there is, but now it is wp (web pictures) /ak , /fal, /hk.

Changed the picture URL to embed it for easier viewing.

[R1shooter]

And these are from when? I have been monitoring some of the posts by some members recently and I can see something is going on here that must have started way before my time, whatever it is I want no part of it, sound like a bunch spoilt children.

[gunplumber]

yeah, (DSA Salesman) R1Shooter, you're right. People noticing when they are defrauded are "spoiled children." F-ck 'em. It's the Chicago way.

[LaConservationist]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

yeah, (DSA Salesman) R1Shooter, you're right. People noticing when they are defrauded are "spoiled children." F-ck 'em. It's the Chicago way.

Sorry GP.....I think I have to take credit for the SPOILED one THIS TIME!

It seems that (DSA Salesman) R1Shooter, has been really upset with me talking about DSA receivers NOT hand timing properly, EXTREMELY small Locking shoulders and of course OUT of spec/incorrect or call it what you wish.....WRONG Ejector Blocks for metric receivers.......Well I see it like this...IF you don't wish to have negative feedback......DON'T SCREW over the BUYER!!
PERIOD!!

BUT hey I have spoken very highly of the VERY EARLY DSA HTS sets.....hell I have some that WORK great! Was really cool they even included the Steyr proofs !!

LaC

[R1shooter]

I am not upset, as stated all the concerns raised have been addressed and corrected on current production, I was referring to how some members interact on this forum and what they say about each other and even those not around to defend themselves, not what I would consider honorable behavior, but before my time and no one I know, just an observation.

[gunplumber]

Some of us have long memories and not prone to unilaterally forgive unrepentant dirtbags.

[R1shooter]

Perhaps in time I may understand but find it hard to accept how some responses are deemed acceptable, but I am the newbie.

[gunplumber]

Perhaps in time I may understand, but find it hard to accept how a major company remarking imported parts "US Made" is deemed acceptable. Nor do I understand how having the company Guido call me, and threaten me with violence, is deemed acceptable. Maybe after enough time has passed I'll simply forget? Not likely, I have a really long memory - back when Dave was working out of his garage.

[R1shooter]

Over twenty years is a long time to hold a grudge, but judging from my time on the files it seems many people have wronged you in some way, if per chance you are going to shot show stop by and I will buy you a beer.

[gunplumber]

The "oops, we forgot to grind off all the import proof marks" and was maybe 5 years ago. How long should we wait before it never happened?

And I don't know about a "grudge". I don't stay awake at night fretting over it. But when a company establishes it's "character" that way, a wise man should always be mindful of that fact.

Don't feel too bad, I have an import mag floorplate engraved "EAI USA"

[R1shooter]

My offer still stands, don't let a few marks in metal years ago done intentionally or not stop us from moving forward.

[Spktyr]

Originally Posted by R1shooter

My offer still stands, don't let a few marks in metal years ago done intentionally or not stop us from moving forward.

How about DSA making good on the borked and unusable receivers first before you ask us (i.e., FALFiles members) to move forward? Doing that would go a long, long, long way towards clearing the air.

I know that I'm not buying DSA products again (though I don't own one of the affected receivers) until that big screw up is remedied - even though I've not had problems with my DSA parts, how I have seen DSA treating their customers over this problem has made me not want to deal with DSA again. Why? Because I now know that if DSA screws up and sends me goods not fit for purpose I'm going to be left hanging, SOL and on my own to try to get it to work if that's even possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that and adjusting my buying habits accordingly. Have you guys at DSA considered this aspect of your conduct? And the screwball receivers weren't any 'twenty years ago' either.

[Ironhandjohn]

Originally Posted by Spktyr

How about DSA making good on the borked and unusable receivers first before you ask us (i.e., FALFiles members) to move forward? Doing that would go a long, long, long way towards clearing the air.

I know that I'm not buying DSA products again (though I don't own one of the affected receivers) until that big screw up is remedied - even though I've not had problems with my DSA parts, how I have seen DSA treating their customers over this problem has made me not want to deal with DSA again because I now know that if DSA screws up and sends me goods not fit for purpose I'm going to be left hanging, SOL and on my own to try to get it to work if that's even possible. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that and adjusting my buying habits accordingly. Have you guys at DSA considered this aspect of your conduct? And the screwball receivers weren't any 'twenty years ago' either.

[LaConservationist]

Well I guess WE sure did screw up the OP thread......maybe the discussions should be brought to a new thread in fairness to the OP!!

LaC

[G3isMe]

Ahhh, I just love these shows, especially when I tune in someone is already up against the ropes.

.