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Old March 10, 2003, 09:15   #51
c east
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I keep reading FACs yellow flier and wonder why I dont see building a firearm for my personal pleasure that I plan to keep...Could this be going the way of MKS and the M-14 recievers?
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Old March 13, 2003, 20:19   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Paine
Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a reciever manufacturer paid the excise tax on it when seeling it to an FFL . The law says a reciever is a firearm , it doesn't matter if it is built up or not. Now if you are a manufacturer with a tax number I was under the impression you could buy recievers without the excise tax but had to collect it when you sold it. Like purchasing any other supplies with a tax number. What is the Reg or Statute that covers this?
Excise tax is paid only on complete firearms, not on receivers or incomplete parts kits.

When you buy a stripped receiver direct from Bushmaster or Olympic Arms, no excise tax has been paid on that transaction.

When you buy a COMPLETE firearm, 11% excise (for long guns) was paid on that firearm when it was first sold to the distributor or dealer by the manufacturer.
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Old April 04, 2003, 23:49   #53
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Just my .02....
Might just be much ado about nothing. Worked for a FFL for years down here. There is no space on the 4473 for the number of firearms bought, just rifle,shotgun or handgun. The FFL dials the number, the NICS ppl ask for your FFL# and code word, and ask questions pertaining to the blanks on the 4473. The clerk is essentially relaying all info on the 4473 that the customer has filled out. The back side is the rifle/shotgun/handgun question, which the clerk/FFL answers. You get a combination of letters and numbers and are proceeded, dleayed or denied.
As for BATF showing up at your doorstep.....
Maybe if you live in an area of the country with NOTHING going on. I live in SE NC. I am also a law enforcement officer. The local BATF field agents are like gerbils on those little metal wheels down here. Saying they are busy is like the understatement of the year! And contrary to popular opinion- they do know their weapons, at least the ones I know. These guys have a LOT more on their plates than someone screwing a FAL together. Doubt the visit will ever happen- of course thats just my opinion I could be wrong!
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Old June 21, 2003, 12:23   #54
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Don't forget the coffee & donuts for when they pay you a visit.
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Old June 25, 2003, 01:40   #55
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Agents in SE NC must be a lot busier than the one's in central Texas. I got a visit for a Change of Address on a C&R license.
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Old July 20, 2003, 20:20   #56
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As a dealer BATF visits my shop usually every three years at the time for renewing my FFL. The state police also come by regularly. The purpose of the visits by the inspectors are to seek and insure dealer compliance to firearms laws. I don't believe that the number of firearms is an issue but the type of firearms in inventory.. The interest seems to be mainly iin the recod keeping.
I have found the BATF inspectors to be courteous and professional but not very knowledgeable on firearms. I carry only traditional sporting firearms but did have one pre ban semi auto UZI in my gun safe last time the inspectors did the audit . They erroreously reported a suspected full auto rifle on my premises and they were soon back to visit me agiain. THis time two inspectors showed up.They requested that I field strip the firearm (which I did) and they proceeded to take digital photos of all of the parts to send to their technology branch. The rifle is now and was always a perfectly legal piece and subsequently nothing beacme of the incident. However,this may indicate that since 9-11 BATF seems to be doing a very thorough job of insuring compliance. In summation everything is fine and business goes on as usual.
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Old August 19, 2003, 14:42   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by cc48510
You could build an FAL for a friend if you wanted as long as it wasn't for pecuniary gain. But, this might tend to lead to issues with the ATF. So, generally I wouldn't manufacture guns for friends. I might help them manufacture their own OTOH.
If you separate the transactions - e.g. sell him the parts as a kit, then have him turn around and pay you to assemble his kit for him - would that make it less likely to garner unwanted attention?
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Old August 23, 2003, 12:11   #58
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If you're going to build weapons for other people, friends or customers, for profit or for free, it's cheaper to pay for an 07 FFL, than to keep a lawyer on retainer.

In either case, I'd be more concerned about Civil Liability, than Criminal Prosecution for manufacturing without a license or tax evasion. You can get the proper licenses and pay the appropriate taxes. However, since you aren't actually making all the parts yourself, and in fact are using used and surplus parts, you may have little control over the final quality (read safety) of the product. Additionally, you have no control over the weapon once it leaves your possession.

Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished". It may reach your level of comfort if your "friend" wants to use your tools, under your supervision, to build his weapon, with his supplied parts. I'd take a hard look at what my homeowners or liability insurance would/wouldn't cover.

I guess my point is that Liability Insurance may be a necessity, even if profit is not a goal.

I'm neither a Lawyer nor an Accountant, so none of my comments should be taken as legal or accounting advice. I have, however gone to a school of great minds and allegedly know something about commerce. Additionally, I had type 06 and 07 FFLs, with SOT status, for six years and, at one point, was very adept at interpreting and dealing with the regulations of the BATF.

YMMV.
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Old August 23, 2003, 18:43   #59
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Quote:
c east: to my knowledge the FFL need only make a single standard NIC's call to transfer the receivers to you. Nics will ask for 'how many' 'rifles' are being purchased to which the dealer will answer 10. You may or may not get a visit as a result.
The first part is correct. One call for any quantity of firearms to one person.

Regarding "long guns" (which is also the FAL upper receiver), no quantity is ever mentioned by either the dealer or the NICS representative. Same goes for handguns.

The dealer is required to fax to the ATF a Multiple Handgun form immediately after the multiple pistol transfer.

The NICS Center has absolutely no way of knowing either the quantity of firearms purchased, or the make or model. They ask..."What type of firearm?"
The correct answer is handgun or long gun. (or both)

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Old September 21, 2003, 21:14   #60
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There seems to be so many different opinions about these issues...I thought I would put on line the letter I received directly from the BATF about assembling a FAL parts kit on a Imbel receiver.....Read the items and you can see it's pretty straight forward....The second responce to clairy the BATF's position about the replacement Imbel receivers and the tax issue is ALSO clearly addressed...


"A person who assembles a taxable firearm, such as a rifle, may be liable for manufacturer's excise tax on the SALE(Key word SALE!) or USE of the firearm imposed by section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code."

A second letter was received from the National Revenue Center that I may also copy to the board for further clarification if I can find it in the next couple of days......This is the part which applied to individuals building there own FAL using available FAL kits and Imported "for repair or replacement" Imbel receivers

"The tax is ONLY APPLICABLE if you are a manufacture(section 4181-see above)...a individual assembling a gun for personal use IS NOT a manufacture according to the IRC code...If you SOLE purpose is to assemble for "profit" and not personal use, then you will need a BATF manufacture liscense AND have to pay the NRC tax accordingly.... " ...it goes on to say..."A manufacture may replace a known bad-defective receiver with a "import for repair/replacement only" receiver without additional tax because the original receiver or weapon when imported was taxed if within defined years of importation tax being applicatible"

This should clear a ton of questions up for everyone with first hand information ....remember second hand information is just that, and everyone has there "own" interpretation of the law..but a letter addressed to YOURSELF from the governing body's clears a lot of these issues up.

Hope this helps, and I'll dig up the NRC letter and copy it to this page also...


FYI



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Old September 22, 2003, 00:22   #61
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The second paragraph on the first letter list the things that are unlawful
when FAL kit and receivers are concerned.
From the way I read it they say you should not use a post 2000 Imbel receiver.
But they are being somewhat vague , if you ask me.

They know people are using these receivers and kits, the $64.000.00 question
is what (if anything) are they going to do about it ?

Bill Clinton sure screwed us over every chance he could get.

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Old September 22, 2003, 06:59   #62
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The only things that you can not use are the imported receivers and barrels FROM kits that where imported for repair/replacement....You can tear this letter apart from top to bottom, but personally I think there is JUST TOO MUCH being read into the building of these kits...it's pretty straight forward......and it even says they are legal to build in the finishing statements.....


Build the kits with which ever receiver you want.....

Remember, the BATF has to prove your NOT compliant--you dont have to prove your innocense.....And they know this, otherwise they would be contacting EVERY person that has purchased a kit....

There is NOTHING in this letter that states that you can not use a "repair/replacement" receiver---it only states that you "may" be liable for Import "tax" if it apply's to you..(Are you a manufacture?...probably not according to the NRC letter ) and even that is covered with the second letter that eventually I will get posted on this same link...

hope this information helps....


FYI

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Old September 22, 2003, 21:23   #63
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The only things that you can not use are the imported receivers and barrels FROM kits that where imported for repair/replacement....

YES, thats what I am saying. It's hard to tell when a parts kit came in the US
as all STG, Imbel, R1, G1 kits look the same , pre or post 2000.
But a receiver is a diffrent thing.

I would hate to see someone lose a FAL in this way.

Build on a US receiver and avoid this possible problem.

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Old September 29, 2003, 11:26   #64
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Has something changed? Item 3 on the list of requirements to build states that you can only have ONE of the following.. Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.
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Old September 29, 2003, 21:34   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jen
Has something changed? Item 3 on the list of requirements to build states that you can only have ONE of the following.. Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.
I thought the same thing when I read the letter. But since they omitted the detachable magazine I am "assuming" they "assumed" that since the letter was regarding the assembly of an FAL it would posses a detachable mag and you could hence only have one more of the evil features. But this is only my "assumption" and they obviously have no trouble changing horses in the middle of the stream and interpreting the rules as they see fit. I am still somewhat surprised that a thumbhole stock is now considered a pistol grip.
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Old October 01, 2003, 09:34   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jen
...Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.
Detachable mags are NOT "evil features" !!!

They are one of the 2 "Qualifying featues"

A weapon that is SEMI-AUTO -AND- Has the ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE... Is subjust to the FEATURE list of which said firearm is only allowed ONE on a post94 build.
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Old October 01, 2003, 09:48   #67
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RE: the letter and "repair/replacement" import parts.

They state that you can not build using parts that you would be banned from using due to "repair or replacement".

Well, someone show me the law that states these parts are not usable by you, the consumer, to build a compliant rifle?
The only people "BANNED" from building using the parts, per the import conditions, are the IMPORTERS.

Someone show me in text anything that says anyone other than them is banned from using these parts for building...

The letter on PG.2 does not state this.

Two places it addresses this.

1) It states "Some barrels and receivers were imported for repair and replacement only, not for assembly into new firearms"

What it does NOT say is that that is a form 6 condition and as such is only a restriction on the IMPORTER. The end user is not bound ny the conditions of the IMPORT license signed by the importer.


2) States it's ok to build if not a MG, AW, or unlawfully assembled from imported parts. Well - I can find no law preventing YOU from building on imported parts provided you comply with 922r. To be "unlawfully assembled from imported parts it would have to be non 922r compiant, or built by the IMPORTER (who IS not allowed to build from the imported parts).
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Old November 17, 2003, 13:22   #68
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Hello everyone, I found this in the December 2003 Small Arms Review
page 99.

Sounds like the ATF could go either way on this issue and are waiting to see
who wins the 2004 election. See below, under the link.

And please take a look at this link also,

http://www.atf.gov/pub/ffl/2001/may/p5.htm

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Old November 17, 2003, 13:47   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by FWRA
The dealer is required to fax to the ATF a Multiple Handgun form immediately after the multiple pistol transfer.
You can avoid that by going to multiple dealers for your pistols, right? One pistol per dealer. Not that I have the money to be able to buy multiple pistols at a time. Hell I wish I had the cash to be able to afford one a month!
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Old January 29, 2004, 00:28   #70
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My brother has a line he uses for everyone whether a panhandler, phone solictor, some one at the door, cops, or anyone else. He simply says, "I can't help you." If they continue, he says, "I can't help you." I've heard him several times with people and no matter what they say or ask him he will just keep repeating, "I can't help you." Its as if thats all the english he knows.
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Old August 28, 2004, 15:02   #71
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This link is related to the repair and replacement topic.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=118076

Read all the information you can find then decide for yourself what you think the ATF will do.

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Old March 22, 2005, 13:24   #72
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I believe that gunsmithing, if not done on ones personal arms only, requires that one have an FFL also. Even more trouble. Manufactoring or gunsmithing, does not matter if uncle sugar wants to make a federal case.

The purchase of ten receivers does indicate potential unlawful action.

In the early 60s my father got a visit from the same folk for stocking up on sugar after the Cuban takeover by Castro. They went into the attic to verify that the 25 lb sacks of sugar were not being made into wiskey.
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Old March 22, 2005, 14:25   #73
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10 coonan recievers

I have used 2 recievers and the rest sit in my closet with 8 FSE trigger groups and 8 FSE folding cocking pieces and 8 Izzy LB wood stock sets. ans 2 STG 58 sets and 6 Imbel parts kits....Now to get some time....Charlie......I'll get to them some day
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Old May 30, 2005, 20:36   #74
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Thanks...never thought something I love to do so much would get me nervous...weird times.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson

If we are feeling nervous about our rights from the government you might need those 10 built!
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Old October 18, 2007, 15:38   #75
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Well it's now 2007 and no Imbel receivers have been imported for a while.
And all FAL, AK, G3 and other machinegun barrels are being tourch cut to be allowed in the US.

Whats next ????


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Old January 06, 2013, 12:39   #76
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JMHO, don't EVER say you bought guns as an investment. An individual buying and selling guns with the intent to make a profit is something the ATF takes a very dim view of. Even one gun can get you all sorts of legal hot water.

You are a collector with no profit motive, not an investor. Again JMHO.
I'd be the first to say I'm not that knowledgeable so comments/corrections welcome.
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Old October 12, 2018, 11:36   #77
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So this is October 2018, How did Brother C. East ever make out?

Brother C. East originally posted on 31 DEC 02 that he ordered (10) Coonan receivers and somewhere along the thread it was mentioned that he would be visited by the ATF for "manufacturing". Here we are close to !16 years! later. Does brother C-East still post on Falfiles? Did he ever get a visit from ATF, even through the O-Bama reign of oppression?

More importantly, did he ever get the Coonan receivers together WITHOUT any problems? How did the rifles shoot and function overall? Did he sell off the unused receivers during this receiver drought?

Does any one know? Does anybody really care? "

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Old October 12, 2018, 17:59   #78
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C east

Yes I bought 10 and a couple by them selfs....I* worked on them for about 4 years ...Had a bunch of Dans $99 kits....Sol;d 2 or 3 receivers when the price was up. Mostly build and learned..Still have my dream rifle and it is one of a kind in the world..Sold all STG 58'S as the were so sought after....All Dsa kits..Still have al the pin gages and every tool I could buy...GO.....NO go......I have co witnessed mine now with a burris fastfire as my eyes are old....The burris is a miracle with both eyes open....,.Have a B jones lens for the rear....I had it Hard chromed and took 3 years to get it back together and working..0002 of an inch makes things tight...Israeli wood all except the grip and it is american made.....A bugger to match the color.....If anyone doubts I'll get a picture.....ATF never showed but the receivers could be built into pistols or rifles so I was worried....Can buy lots of rifle receivers but for some reason 10 pistol receivers at that time was a problem..Took me 10 years to sell them all off...The STG 58 were aw sum accurate Charlie
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Old October 12, 2018, 18:51   #79
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Quote:
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...The STG 58 were aw sum accurate Charlie
Amen.

Ain't no FAL rifles like the StG58 rifles.
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Old October 12, 2018, 21:33   #80
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Well this was why I warned folks against buying "pistol" marked AR lowers en masse'

For decades if you buy multiple handguns the FFL has to do another form that gets sent to the Bureau
quite a few dealers don't like kicking the cradle
frankly pistol marked lowers were always dumb as bat shit

bare never built recievers are neither rifle or pistol
thing is you mark them as pistol for many FFLs that changes
see, it's now seen as a receiver for a "pistol"
change in status

anyone care to debate this ?

1911 frames were and remain handguns, never have then been lawfully an "other"
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Old October 16, 2018, 10:48   #81
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According to the BATF the transferable receivers that we are likely to encounter are classified as "frames" or "receivers", but they have most of the same transfer requirements as a pistol, since they could be built into a pistol. So long as a semi-auto receiver has all of the required BATF markings, it doesn't matter if they are additionally marked "pistol" , "rifle", or "machine gun", they are still a "receiver".

Multiple handgun sales forms (ATF forms 3320.4) are NOT required for sales of multiple frames or receivers of any firearm, as they are not pistols or revolvers. Comment: This may seem inconsistent with points 1 and 2 above, but this follows from the provisions of CFT 478.11 which states that bare frames or receivers are not handguns until so assembled.

https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download

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