Are M1 Garand Price Going Up?

[K. Funk]

Are M1 prices being affected by this feeding frenzy?

krf

[AliYahu]

I don't think so. The CMP has piles of them, ready for sale.

Eli

[parallaxbill]

Originally Posted by K. Funk

Are M1 prices being affected by this feeding frenzy?

krf

Not yet, but anything could happen.

[gunplumber]

Not that I've seen, but then the prices have been all over the place anyway. $600-$1200 with little difference. Personally, I like the $600 ones with bad barrels so I can convert them to .308 and piss of Shlomo.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Personally, I like the $600 ones with bad barrels so I can convert them to .308 and piss of Shlomo.

And finish the stocks with Minwax "Tung Oil", so you can avoid using the inferior linseed oil.

[JeffJ]

Originally Posted by shlomo

And finish the stocks with Minwax "Tung Oil", so you can avoid using the inferior linseed oil.

Wow, your coming around!

[JeffJ]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Not that I've seen, but then the prices have been all over the place anyway. $600-$1200 with little difference. Personally, I like the $600 ones with bad barrels so I can convert them to .308 and piss of Shlomo.

If the Garand was meant to be 308 they would have come that way originally.
I don't know anything the 308 can do that the 30-06 can't do better.

[Illurian00]

7.62X51 can be availible better

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Illurian00

7.62X51 can be availible better

Not at my house.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

Wow, your coming around!

I'm gonna give you a gross of apostrophes for Christmas.

Here's what I'm coming around to:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=42

[Illurian00]

Not at my house.

Even so, no man is an island.

A few weeks ago I scored a tin of /06 Norwegian AP (clips & bandos') for a friend,,,I'm not holding my breath my waiting for another lucky find.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Illurian00

Even so, no man is an island.

A few weeks ago I scored a tin of /06 Norwegian AP (clips & bandos') for a friend,,,I'm not holding my breath my waiting for another lucky find.

Let's just say that the Garand ain't exactly the only arrow in the quiver.

[Mebsuta]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Not at my house.

Me neither. Go to range in November and December, pick up Fudd brass.

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

If the Garand was meant to be 308 they would have come that way originally.
I don't know anything the 308 can do that the 30-06 can't do better.

308 is more accurate.

Now before everyone piles on, the NRA had to reduce the size of their scoring rings when the military switched from 30.06 to 7.62x51 because scores went through the roof.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold

308 is more accurate.

Now before everyone piles on, the NRA had to reduce the size of their scoring rings when the military switched from 30.06 to 7.62x51 because scores went through the roof.

(piling on)

Another fan of that Bart whatsisname, I see.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340938

The fun begins around post #5

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally Posted by shlomo

(piling on)

Another fan of that Bart whatsisname, I see.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340938

The fun begins around post #5

I can sum it up this way. The military is forced to use whatever current caliber they have in service. Civilians aren't bound by this so by your logic they chould have stayed with 30.06 long after the military adopted their 'inferior' .308. Didn't happen.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold

I can sum it up this way. The military is forced to use whatever current caliber they have in service. Civilians aren't bound by this so by your logic they chould have stayed with 30.06 long after the military adopted their 'inferior' .308. Didn't happen.

That would be summing it up wrong.

My point is that the notion that the .308 is so overwhelmingly superior to the .30-06 that it caused the "5-v" target to be replaced by the decimal target it BS. The two cartridges have roughly equal accuracy potential in equivalent arms and with equivalent bullets. Only difference is that you can load the '06 hotter than the .308, and efficiently shoot heavier bullets if it is deemed desirable. You don't have to firewall 30-06 to keep a 175 supersonic at 1,000.

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally Posted by shlomo

That would be summing it up wrong.

My point is that the notion that the .308 is so overwhelmingly superior to the .30-06 that it caused the "5-v" target to be replaced by the decimal target it BS. The two cartridges have roughly equal accuracy potential in equivalent arms and with equivalent bullets. Only difference is that you can load the '06 hotter than the .308, and efficiently shoot heavier bullets if it is deemed desirable. You don't have to firewall 30-06 to keep a 175 supersonic at 1,000.

I know you really love the '.06 but nothing that's happened since the military went to .308 supports your case. I don't remember exactly when the 6mm-6.5mm cartridges started to become popular but the civilian shooting world had 30+ years to decide if the 30.06 was superrior to the .308. I got my start shooting interservice matches in the mid 1980's and I've been shooting NRA high power since the mid 1990's. I see very few 30.06 rifles on the line outside of a Garand match so that has to tell you something.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold

I know you really love the '.06 but nothing that's happened since the military went to .308 supports your case. I don't remember exactly when the 6mm-6.5mm cartridges started to become popular but the civilian shooting world had 30+ years to decide if the 30.06 was superrior to the .308. I got my start shooting interservice matches in the mid 1980's and I've been shooting NRA high power since the mid 1990's. I see very few 30.06 rifles on the line outside of a Garand match so that has to tell you something.

Yeah. Powder costs money, .308 surplus brass is more plentiful, and bolt throw is quicker in a short action. Also, you don't need a ten-pound hammer to drive ten-penny nails.

None of which has anything to do with intrinisc accuracy, or the potential to load up when necessary.

I have a little mileage at Camp Perry myself.

We typically have 3 guns in .308, and 3 in 30-06 in any given year when we shoot the team events. If you are familiar with the Infantry Trophy Match, you know that it involves accelerated rapidfire by six people from the 600 and 500 yard line with an estimated wind call and no sighting shots. We started out shooting the 175 SMK, for wind bucking qualities, but found that the .308 guns could not carry the water to match the velocities of the '06 guns. That is important, since the captain and coach have to regulate the guns together. Thus, we wound up shooting the 155 palma bullet so all the guns could get as near identical velocity as possible.

As to accuracy, every year the top two guns on our team in both the Infantry Trophy match and the six-man NTT 500-agg bullseye event have been the '06 guns. The last year I shot there (2011), I was the high individual agg for the day of anybody shooting a Garand in the NTT, shooting my lousy .30-06.

Only reason I'm telling you this is to let you know that there is more than just supposition behind my opinion.

[Sgt_Gold]

Originally Posted by shlomo

As to accuracy, every year the top two guns on our team in both the Infantry Trophy match and the six-man NTT 500-agg bullseye event have been the '06 guns. The last year I shot there (2011), I was the high individual agg for the day of anybody shooting a Garand in the NTT, shooting my lousy .30-06.

Only reason I'm telling you this is to let you know that there is more than just supposition behind my opinion.

And like I said outside of a Garand match, or a match where Garands compete as a team I rarely see 30.06 in use.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold

And like I said outside of a Garand match, or a match where Garands compete as a team I rarely see 30.06 in use.

And like I said, shoulder to shoulder in the equivalent gun, there's nothing the .308 does that you can't do better with an '06. That's the original point, isn't it?

[gunplumber]

IF you are handloading. But 7.62 NATO boat tail outperforms .30-06 GI spitzer. The bullet had 50 additional years of development. Taking that 50 year of development and putting it back in the 1906 case does not give you a .30-06 GI, it gives you a custom loaded .30-06 with a custom bullet. Then the case capacity comes back into play.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

IF you are handloading. But 7.62 NATO boat tail outperforms .30-06 GI spitzer. The bullet had 50 additional years of development. Taking that 50 year of development and putting it back in the 1906 case does not give you a .30-06 GI, it gives you a custom loaded .30-06 with a custom bullet. Then the case capacity comes back into play.

Apples and oranges.

I can show you loads in .38 spl that outperform nato 9mm ball. I can also show you 9mm loads that outperform .38 RNL. Means precisely dick in determining which cartridge is superior and/or has more potential.

The point remains that there is nothing you can do with a .308 that you can't equal or exceed with the larger case.

The question is not whether a seventy-year old obsolete milspec load can match a load with a modern, ballistically-superior projectile.

[gunplumber]

I have never said a .30-06 custom handload outperforms a 7.62 NATO custom handload. The .30-06 wins. Not everyone reloads. The as-issued 7.62 NATO beats the as-issued .30-06 GI. For those willing and able to do custom stuff, this is not an issue. But changing the terms to favor your pet does not refute my statement.

That's like comparing automobiles, but then when yours loses, adding a custom engine to claim yours is better.

[RG Coburn]

Compare 172 grain national match rounds,7.62x51 to .30-06...
Which does better? I guessing there isn't a world of difference.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

I have never said a .30-06 custom handload outperforms a 7.62 NATO custom handload.

And I have never said that M2 ball outperforms 7.62 Nato with a boat-tail bullet. So what are we arguing about?

Originally Posted by gunplumber

That's like comparing automobiles, but then when yours loses, adding a custom engine to claim yours is better.

I was thinking along the same lines- Your SHO Taurus with 435 hp vs my 1972 LTD with the big eight. Apples and oranges.

[PA Garand Boy]

Originally Posted by Sgt_Gold

308 is more accurate.

In a Garand?!?

Next thing you know we are going to be arguing if it is better to have a plasma or LED flatscreen TV for viewing VHS tapes.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by PA Garand Boy

In a Garand?!?

Next thing you know we are going to be arguing if it is better to have a plasma or LED flatscreen TV for viewing VHS tapes.

Oh, but the renowned Bart Bobbit has proclaimed that the .308 is at least three times as accurate as the '06.

That means your six minute rattletrap can be a two-minute wonder, just by changing to a .308 barrel.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I'm gonna give you a gross of apostrophes for Christmas.

The ammo war is boring me, but this was funny as hell!

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Oh, but the renowned Bart Bobbit has proclaimed that the .308 is at least three times as accurate as the '06.

That means your six minute rattletrap can be a two-minute wonder, just by changing to a .308 barrel.

Don't know who that is, but the boat tail design of the more modern 7.62 NATO bullet tends to give it a better ballistic coefficient for longer range and flatter trajectory than the flat based (spitzer) bullet of the .30-06 GI.

No argument from me that the larger case capacity of a handloaded .30-06 will make it outperform the same bullet/(less) powder/primer in a handloaded 7,62 NATO - in a bolt action.

But given the critical pressure curve required for reliably functioning a Garand, is the larger case really a benefit? You cannot load it hotter without also adding an adjustable gas plug to vent off the excess pressure. I've had two Garands this year locked up solid and needing to be pounded open with a mallet because the operator used commercial .30-06 that was too hot for the Garand.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

But given the critical pressure curve required for reliably functioning a Garand, is the larger case really a benefit? You cannot load it hotter without also adding an adjustable gas plug to vent off the excess pressure. I've had two Garands this year locked up solid and needing to be pounded open with a mallet because the operator used commercial .30-06 that was too hot for the Garand.

I would think that a fella who thinks nothing of spending $1000 for a glass sight on his Fish would not be daunted or scandalized by spending thirty bucks on a Schuster plug. If for no other reason than you can tune the op-rod impulse, which I have evidence DOES affect grouping.

Also, our '06 Garands could get another 100 fps over the .308 with either bullet we used, without going past the pressure envelope.

And, to paraphrase somebody I know, I can load my '06 ammo just as slow as your .308 ammo.

[Mebsuta]

M1 is looking real good after reading Feinstein's bill, isn't it?

[ppo84]

Funny, the garand, nor the Fal were originally designed for .30 cal. , guess we'd be pontificating .280 or something if they hadn't changed them. Btw, best groups from GI ammo I ever shot though my garand was with AP/m2 but thats another story.

Question: does the .308 garand have the same pressure curve issues with commercial ammo?

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Mebsuta

M1 is looking real good after reading Feinstein's bill, isn't it?

Sounds to me like you're ready to acknowledge that the fedgov gets to violate the most fundamental law of the land, and erase your rights.

Which is a shame.

[Mebsuta]

Owned them in both .308 and -06. -06 is more fun. For average person no reason to go .308 unless you just have a mountain of ammunition in that caliber. I can make -06 with the right curve and stuff with Lee hand tools. It's just not a big deal.

[Mebsuta]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Sounds to me like you're ready to acknowledge that the fedgov gets to violate the most fundamental law of the land, and erase your rights.

Which is a shame.

I was answering K. Funk's question. Everyone gets their say on the FAL Files.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Mebsuta

I was answering K. Funk's question. Everyone gets their say on the FAL Files.

Sorry Mebs. I prolly shoulda known better. U R from TXS.

Mea Culpa 2 U.

[Mebsuta]

Shlomo you don't have to apologize. I deserve to be griefed.

[sct1886]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

If the Garand was meant to be 308 they would have come that way originally.
I don't know anything the 308 can do that the 30-06 can't do better.

Really?? Last I read it was originally designed similar to an M14 from inception. Only changed to the 8rd end-bloc to satisfy military morons.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by sct1886

Really?? Last I read it was originally designed similar to an M14 from inception. Only changed to the 8rd end-bloc to satisfy military morons.

Quoted for posterity.

I hope that didn't come from Mr. Bobbit as well.

[tdb59]

Originally Posted by sct1886

Really?? Last I read it was originally designed similar to an M14 from inception. Only changed to the 8rd end-bloc to satisfy military morons.

Get your firearms history lessons from CNN ?

[shlomo]

Dude. I got a headrush from holdin' back.

[bubbagump]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

I have never said a .30-06 custom handload outperforms a 7.62 NATO custom handload. The .30-06 wins. Not everyone reloads. The as-issued 7.62 NATO beats the as-issued .30-06 GI. For those willing and able to do custom stuff, this is not an issue. But changing the terms to favor your pet does not refute my statement.

That's like comparing automobiles, but then when yours loses, adding a custom engine to claim yours is better.

That might be important if M2 Ball was plentiful, or if the NATO round was cheap and available, or if I was content with a .30 caliber shooting platform that does not perform to it's capabilities. But none of those things are true.

b.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I would think that a fella who thinks nothing of spending $1000 for a glass sight on his Fish would not be daunted or scandalized by spending thirty bucks on a Schuster plug. If for no other reason than you can tune the op-rod impulse, which I have evidence DOES affect grouping.

Also, our '06 Garands could get another 100 fps over the .308 with either bullet we used, without going past the pressure envelope.

And, to paraphrase somebody I know, I can load my '06 ammo just as slow as your .308 ammo.

Just pointing out in my subtle way that you have to customize your rifle and your ammo to obtain the results you want. I don't have a problem with that, but shouldn't it be relevant to the debate that the perceived benefits of the custom-loaded .30-06 don't happen without also customizing the rifle? And without doing so can damage your rifle?

[JeffJ]

Well apples to apples I have a Shlomo tuned M1 Garand that truely shoots sub moa with handloads, I also have a Arrington tuned M14 that shoots sub moa with handloads...just can't shoot them as far.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Just pointing out in my subtle way that you have to customize your rifle and your ammo to obtain the results you want. I don't have a problem with that, but shouldn't it be relevant to the debate that the perceived benefits of the custom-loaded .30-06 don't happen without also customizing the rifle? And without doing so can damage your rifle?

I thought I just told ya I could outperform .308 without exceeding redline. And not by a trivial margin, either.

[ftierson]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Dude. I got a headrush from holdin' back.

Forrest

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I thought I just told ya I could outperform .308 without exceeding redline. And not by a trivial margin, either.

so why do you need a custom-adjusted gas plug?

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

so why do you need a custom-adjusted gas plug?

So I CAN jack it up even more, if desired, and also to tune the op-rod impulse for accuracy, which I believe I also already said.

This probably doesn't make sense to a guy who's satisfied with blasting milsurp into a junk vehicle at pistol distance, I know.

[gunplumber]

Occasionally I shoot garands and 03s off hand at 300-500, but my local desert shooting spot is only 100. And I'm satisfied with hitting a man-sized target. I don't trek down there to see where on the man sized target I hit.