Re: the discussion of rights

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 05:47

Since we had an ongoing and unresolved discussion on the subject, perhaps it may interest one or two people to spend a little leisure time on a several part lecture on the origin and development of the concept of individual natural rights by the very pleasant and knowledgeable Tom Woods.

I believe you can skip to about 4:00 to cut out the speaker intro.
Hope you enjoy:

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 06:27

I believe 'natural rights' are a lovely concept. They speak of some of the highest ideals humans have aspired to.

However, to possess and exercise them, you must be willing to kill to preserve them. Because others seeking to deny them to you will surely and demonstrably do the same to you.

Usually in the guise of government. These are where history inks in the great killings.

Criminals operate more on an individual basis. Perhaps that point illustrates criminals are less of a threat than governments.

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

I believe 'natural rights' are a lovely concept. They speak of some of the highest ideals humans have aspired to.

However, to possess and exercise them, you must be willing to kill to preserve them. Because others seeking to deny them to you will surely and demonstrably do the same to you.

Usually in the guise of government. These are where history inks in the great killings.

Criminals operate more on an individual basis. Perhaps that point illustrates criminals are less of a threat than governments.

Defense of rights is no wrong. It has been said that a proper pacifist is one who is willing to fight to defend his right to be peaceful.

As to your last sentence, I believe that no amount of private crime among humanity could possibly have matched the volume of property destruction and murder committed by governments in the last century.

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

As to your last sentence, I believe that no amount of private crime among humanity could possibly have matched the volume of property destruction and murder committed by governments in the last century.

No need to "believe" in something that is documented fact. It exists without the need for faith.

Used to call that type of thing 'hard data'. It is incontrovertible and not subject to misinterpretation.

It will however eventually fall to revisionist historians who will bury the facts as they don't fit with their narrative. Becoming available only to the acolytes who serve those in power. Those types are reluctant to talk out of school.

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

No need to "believe" in something that is documented fact. It exists without the need for faith.

I try to be careful how I phrase things. While we know the tally on governmental carnage, the amount of private crime as a substitute, absent government, is mere speculation.

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

I try to be careful how I phrase things. While we know the tally on governmental carnage, the amount of private crime as a substitute, absent government, is mere speculation.

Agreed. I was speaking only to the actions of government.

Private crime is not a substitute however. It is at times seen as competition and is eradicated. This also has been documented. The Khans may be the first example of this behavior.

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

Agreed. I was speaking only to the actions of government.

Private crime is not a substitute however. It is at times seen as competition and is eradicated. This also has been documented. The Khans may be the first example of this behavior.

I know they got on James T. Kirk's last good nerve.

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 07:13

Can you even make fine Corinthian leather from a yak?

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

Can you even make fine Corinthian leather from a yak?

Damn it Jim--I'm a doctor, not an upholsterer.

**GSP228** · November 16, 2012, 07:23

I got a cream puff Chrysler LaBaron for sale. Knee deep in rubber and the inside of the tail pipe is as white as your shirt. Oh, and as for Kahn-He's dead, Jim.

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSP228

I got a cream puff Chrysler LaBaron for sale. Knee deep in rubber and the inside of the tail pipe is as white as your shirt. Oh, and as for Kahn-He's dead, Jim.

Been reading you for years here my man. What's your first name? And when you gonna' travel up and shoot with us at the spring FAL match Stimpy hosts?

You really need to, you know?

Lowell

**GSP228** · November 16, 2012, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

Been reading you for years here my man. What's your first name? And when you gonna' travel up and shoot with us at the spring FAL match Stimpy hosts?

You really need to, you know?

Lowell

Lowell, I'm Tom. I try to stay below the gnat line as much as I can. I think I channeled my daddy in my last post. He sold used cars.

**308bolt** · November 16, 2012, 11:20

Just viewed all six parts and I learned that:

A cannon lawyer applied his Gracian formula so taxes are slavery and a German guy says all that should be viewed through the universal studio.
Anyone who says different is just a Khan man.
I'm still wondering why cannons need representation.

Gotta love those Mises to pieces.

(late night)

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSP228

Lowell, I'm Tom. I try to stay below the gnat line as much as I can.

Thank you, Tom. Good to meet you, far as this medium allows anyhow.

You really ought to try to get up for the FAL match Stimpy hosts. It's more fun than a new batch of puppies.

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Just viewed all six parts and I learned that:

A cannon lawyer applied his Gracian formula so taxes are slavery and a German guy says all that should be viewed through the universal studio.
Anyone who says different is just a Khan man.
I'm still wondering why cannons need representation.

Gotta love those Mises to pieces.

(late night)

**L Haney** · November 16, 2012, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

I'm still wondering why cannons need representation.

Cannons (sp) are the last argument of Kings. But everyone listens to Reason (TM). Don't make me power up Reason, nobody wants that.

shlomo · November 16, 2012, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

Thank you, Tom. Good to meet you, far as this medium allows anyhow.

You really ought to try to get up for the FAL match Stimpy hosts. It's more fun than a new batch of puppies.

Yep.

Second.

**308bolt** · November 16, 2012, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

Cannons (sp) are the last argument of Kings. But everyone listens to Reason (TM). Don't make me power up Reason, nobody wants that.

That's right reasonable of you.

**308bolt** · November 16, 2012, 22:19

Back to the serious discussion of rights.

It's interesting knowing the history of the philosophy of individual rights but knowing that history is not protection against others superseding your rights.

The only rights anyone really has are the ones they can maintain.

shlomo · November 17, 2012, 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Back to the serious discussion of rights.

It's interesting knowing the history of the philosophy of individual rights but knowing that history is not protection against others superseding your rights.

Knowing the history means having a moral foundation to stand on. And that is the very beginning and bedrock of any defense. That's why it's important.

Knowledge truly is power.

**Thorack** · November 17, 2012, 07:00

Hmmm,

So Might doesnt makes Right, if your the dead one? Wonder how any of these arguements stand up in court?

Thorack

**308bolt** · November 17, 2012, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

Knowing the history means having a moral foundation to stand on. And that is the very beginning and bedrock of any defense. That's why it's important.

Knowledge truly is power.

That will make me feel much better when I have to shoot some S.O.B..

Don't worry, I get it, but I'm bottom line type.
I always think of the worst case scenario first.
If I'm in position to defend myself with philosophy that's still a pretty good day where I come from.

shlomo · November 17, 2012, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack

Hmmm,

So Might doesnt makes Right, if your the dead one? Wonder how any of these arguements stand up in court?

Thorack

I have NO idea what any of that means.

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 09:37

You may not understand what he said but you have to recognize his right to say it.

homelandprotector · November 18, 2012, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

Knowing the history means having a moral foundation to stand on. And that is the very beginning and bedrock of any defense. That's why it's important.

Knowledge truly is power.

Appropriate........

who can argue with Abe?

JasonB · November 18, 2012, 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

Appropriate........

who can argue with Abe?

1) Abe was afraid to carry a pocket knife because he was so fucked in the head he thought he would commit suicide.

2) He held every limitation on the federal government and right of individuals in such disdain we can be assured that if he somehow could have wielded an MG it would have been used to subjugate the citizenry.

**L Haney** · November 18, 2012, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack

Hmmm,

So Might doesnt makes Right, if your the dead one? Wonder how any of these arguements stand up in court?

Thorack

From Shlomo: "I have NO idea what any of that means. "

Oh goody, I thought it was just me.

**GSP228** · November 18, 2012, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by L Haney

From Shlomo: "I have NO idea what any of that means. "

Oh goody, I thought it was just me.

That, or everyone from Georgia is slow.

shlomo · November 18, 2012, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSP228

That, or everyone from Georgia is slow.

Slow is from Texas.

homelandprotector · November 18, 2012, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonB

1) Abe was afraid to carry a pocket knife because he was so fucked in the head he thought he would commit suicide.

2) He held every limitation on the federal government and right of individuals in such disdain we can be assured that if he somehow could have wielded an MG it would have been used to subjugate the citizenry.

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

shlomo · November 18, 2012, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

That growling and metal-rending sound you hear from afar is me exercising restraint.

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

True dat.
Just think how bad things would be without the government we enjoy today.

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

That growling and metal-rending sound you hear from afar is me exercising restraint.

Better check your bearings.

shlomo · November 18, 2012, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Better check your bearings.

You're not questioning my orientation, are you?

**L Haney** · November 18, 2012, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

Your oppinion is noted. I'd just feel better if that war had been just a little bit about slavery. It weren't.

Sort of like that youtube video been bandied about recently by the current administration. The media has a long history of being complicit.

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

You're not questioning my orientation, are you?

If you're Chinese I apologize.

JasonB · November 18, 2012, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

You mean libertarians...people who are in favor of smaller government and individual rights. Liberals (overbearing government via democrats) and conservatives (overbearing government via republicans) both adore him and the big government tactics he used.

shlomo · November 18, 2012, 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

If you're Chinese I apologize.

ROR!

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 11:56

You funny guy!

**GSP228** · November 18, 2012, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

Slow is from Texas.

That may be, but I didn't understand Thorack either.

**L Haney** · November 18, 2012, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSP228

...but I didn't understand Thorack either.

He works in military purchasing. NOBODY understands that.

shlomo · November 18, 2012, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

You funny guy!

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 12:20

Rearry funny.
Rike Stan Raurer funny.

VonFireball · November 18, 2012, 14:02

Quote:

It's funny how most Liberals hate ole Abe Lincoln.... he did allot more good then bad in my oppinion.

Yeah those 38 indians hangin' in mahnomen was a great start......

**308bolt** · November 18, 2012, 16:13

Mankato, Mahnomen county.

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html

Methane · November 19, 2012, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Mankato, Mahnomen county.

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html

The Mankato incident would seem to diminish the lauded "Great Emancipator". His convoluted modus, subjugating the indigenous people while emancipating the slaves, is noteworthy.

**308bolt** · November 19, 2012, 08:23

I guess he didn't respect natural rights like some people who don't know anything about history think he did.

**GSP228** · November 19, 2012, 08:48

And the only slaves that he emancipated were the ones in the South over whom he had no jurisdiction at the time.

Methane · November 19, 2012, 08:51

I'm somewhat curious about the latest propaganda movie piece, "Lincoln", and how it is intended to play into the current National crisis agenda.

DancesWithMethane

**308bolt** · November 19, 2012, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSP228

And the only slaves that he emancipated were the ones in the South over whom he had no jurisdiction at the time.

I guess that' just another one of those inconvenient facts that the victors want to rewrite.

Quote:

The very words of his 1863 Emancipation Proclamation revealed his deceit and cunning; it freed those slaves held "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States." It didn't apply to slaves in West Virginia and areas and states not in rebellion. Like Gen. Ulysses Grant's slaves, they had to wait for the 13th Amendment, Grant explained why he didn't free his slaves earlier, saying, "Good help is so hard to come by these days."

Another inconvenient fact:

Those blacks who were so put upon by the cruel white slave owners fought for the South in the same percentage as they did for the north.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/blacks.htm

November 16, 2012, 05:47	#1
shlomo Registered FALaholic #: 12779 Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: elsewhere Posts: 12,021	Re: the discussion of rights Since we had an ongoing and unresolved discussion on the subject, perhaps it may interest one or two people to spend a little leisure time on a several part lecture on the origin and development of the concept of individual natural rights by the very pleasant and knowledgeable Tom Woods. I believe you can skip to about 4:00 to cut out the speaker intro. Hope you enjoy:

November 16, 2012, 06:27	#2
L Haney Seriously Ponderin' Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 20446 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NW Ga Posts: 8,359	I believe 'natural rights' are a lovely concept. They speak of some of the highest ideals humans have aspired to. However, to possess and exercise them, you must be willing to kill to preserve them. Because others seeking to deny them to you will surely and demonstrably do the same to you. Usually in the guise of government. These are where history inks in the great killings. Criminals operate more on an individual basis. Perhaps that point illustrates criminals are less of a threat than governments. __________________ “I am quite sure I do not get what is so funny about my RO style." stimpsonjcat You'd have to be there, and if you ain't it's your loss.

November 16, 2012, 07:13	#8
L Haney Seriously Ponderin' Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 20446 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NW Ga Posts: 8,359	Can you even make fine Corinthian leather from a yak? __________________ “I am quite sure I do not get what is so funny about my RO style." stimpsonjcat You'd have to be there, and if you ain't it's your loss.

November 16, 2012, 07:23	#10
GSP228 Senior Member Contributor FALaholic #: 13887 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SW GA Posts: 793	I got a cream puff Chrysler LaBaron for sale. Knee deep in rubber and the inside of the tail pipe is as white as your shirt. Oh, and as for Kahn-He's dead, Jim. __________________ Mr. Personality

November 16, 2012, 11:20	#13
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	Just viewed all six parts and I learned that: A cannon lawyer applied his Gracian formula so taxes are slavery and a German guy says all that should be viewed through the universal studio. Anyone who says different is just a Khan man. I'm still wondering why cannons need representation. Gotta love those Mises to pieces. (late night) __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 16, 2012, 22:19	#19
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	Back to the serious discussion of rights. It's interesting knowing the history of the philosophy of individual rights but knowing that history is not protection against others superseding your rights. The only rights anyone really has are the ones they can maintain. __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 17, 2012, 07:00	#21
Thorack Acquisition Corp Dude Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 748 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA Posts: 5,631	Hmmm, So Might doesnt makes Right, if your the dead one? Wonder how any of these arguements stand up in court? Thorack __________________ 1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised. 2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.

November 18, 2012, 09:37	#24
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	You may not understand what he said but you have to recognize his right to say it. __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 18, 2012, 11:56	#39
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	You funny guy! __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 18, 2012, 12:20	#43
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	Rearry funny. Rike Stan Raurer funny. __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 18, 2012, 16:13	#45
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	Mankato, Mahnomen county. http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 19, 2012, 08:23	#47
308bolt Heathen Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 19255 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,027	I guess he didn't respect natural rights like some people who don't know anything about history think he did. __________________ "The bandwagons rumble past. I sit here on the curb," ~ John Hartford ~ "Nil desperandum, -- Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it." ~ Samuel Adams ~

November 19, 2012, 08:48	#48
GSP228 Senior Member Contributor FALaholic #: 13887 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SW GA Posts: 793	And the only slaves that he emancipated were the ones in the South over whom he had no jurisdiction at the time. __________________ Mr. Personality

November 19, 2012, 08:51	#49
Methane Registered FALaholic #: 54848 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: "shade of the trees" Posts: 232	I'm somewhat curious about the latest propaganda movie piece, "Lincoln", and how it is intended to play into the current National crisis agenda. DancesWithMethane Last edited by Methane; November 19, 2012 at 09:15.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode