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Old November 13, 2012, 17:03   #51
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Originally Posted by DYNOMIKE View Post
OK, I gotcha..
The "parts" on a RR are a consideration no doubt and might relegate an otherwise very good gun to range/hunting rifle only.. Might invest in a spare bolt if they are prone to breakage..

I know your very fond of the 6.8, we talked about that round some back at the shot show when it was still relatively unknown outside it's field use. I recall you telling me then that the round had proven itself a solid performer/stopper in the places the guns where being used.

Personally I bought the LaRue OBR and so far find the gun to be very impressive. The gun shoots really well (it should) and the Geissele trigger is the best I've tried to date. While I've touched on it a couple times I've not come right out and asked you what your opinion (if any) is of these rifles?
Mark LaRue is a friend and ANYTHING he puts his name to is top notch. He does charge appropriately tho.... Bill Geissele is an acquaintance and he builds some awesome triggers. IMHO, you have one of the best .308 rifles on the market with THE best trigger and you will not go wrong with either other them. BTW, you have been buying some nice stuff recently!! That Blackout rifle is the heat!! I'm kind of resisting buying into the .300 BO just because Robert Silvers rubs me the wrong way in claiming he invented the round when it was plainly JD Jones who did so. Stupid I know but hey, no-one said I was logical...... I'm thinking it would be an ideal LE round but I have lots of 6.8 barrels, bolts and ammo but no .300 BO stuff so I'm going with what I have in hand.

Regarding the RR; like I say, I like mine but if I was buying ONE .308 rifle, it would not be the RR just for the parts issue. I'm thinking for down the road like it was during the ban when mags, parts and other items were often hard to get. It's difficult for me to recommend someone buy into a system that has so many proprietary parts when that might become an issue 10 or 20 years later. Hell, for the SR25/DPMS pattern rifles, you can go to Midway or Brownells and buy spare bolts, barrels, gas rings, handguards etc to lay in stock in case you need them. You can't do the same with RR and that's the only reason for choosing a DPMS pattern over the RR.

I see dark days ahead for EBR (or MSR if you prefer) owners and manufacturers now Obumbler has been re-elected; I would only buy stuff for which I could easily get parts from multiple sources.
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Old November 13, 2012, 19:14   #52
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Mark LaRue is a friend and ANYTHING he puts his name to is top notch. He does charge appropriately tho.... Bill Geissele is an acquaintance and he builds some awesome triggers. IMHO, you have one of the best .308 rifles on the market with THE best trigger and you will not go wrong with either other them. BTW, you have been buying some nice stuff recently!! That Blackout rifle is the heat!! I'm kind of resisting buying into the .300 BO just because Robert Silvers rubs me the wrong way in claiming he invented the round when it was plainly JD Jones who did so. Stupid I know but hey, no-one said I was logical...... I'm thinking it would be an ideal LE round but I have lots of 6.8 barrels, bolts and ammo but no .300 BO stuff so I'm going with what I have in hand.

Regarding the RR; like I say, I like mine but if I was buying ONE .308 rifle, it would not be the RR just for the parts issue. I'm thinking for down the road like it was during the ban when mags, parts and other items were often hard to get. It's difficult for me to recommend someone buy into a system that has so many proprietary parts when that might become an issue 10 or 20 years later. Hell, for the SR25/DPMS pattern rifles, you can go to Midway or Brownells and buy spare bolts, barrels, gas rings, handguards etc to lay in stock in case you need them. You can't do the same with RR and that's the only reason for choosing a DPMS pattern over the RR.

I see dark days ahead for EBR (or MSR if you prefer) owners and manufacturers now Obumbler has been re-elected; I would only buy stuff for which I could easily get parts from multiple sources.
Well I'll call that a respectable review indeed..
YES, Mark is "proud" of his stuff and certainly charges accordingly. One thing I can say is that this was a significant investment and was given proper consideration. Working at the shop now I was able to really do my homework and can say that in the end it paid off..

COOL, I'm glad you like the .300BLK rifle.. I think it's pretty damn sweet and gave a lot of consideration to it as well hand selecting ea part on the rifle.
The ONE thing that will change very soon however is the trigger as it sux. Once I install the Geissele though it will be exactly what I pictured in my head.. The rifle is really fun to shhot and ammo is easy to handload for so that makes shooting it even better..

LOL!! Yea JD Jones did indeed create the round and NOT just for the T/C (as I've heard some say). His design and intended use (suppressed AR) was way ahead of anyone else's.. Hell I bought my T/C Barrel and .300 Whisper dies about 20 years ago. I had a lot of fun shooting that T/C barrel and still have it. A very accurate round and easy to shoot..

I enjoyed the 6.8 when I shot all your stuff.. GREAT guns and a nice round but I'm the opposite of you.. I had nuthing 6.8 but already had .300 data, dies, and experience so I just needed the upper..
I'm sure you would like the .300BLK, not saying you would like it better (not as good long range no doubt) but it's really versatile which I like..

YUP, sad days for us no fer sher.. EBR/MSR's will be on the hit list and that pretty much blows..
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Old November 15, 2012, 10:49   #53
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another vote for cmmg in that price range
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Old November 15, 2012, 22:40   #54
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This is the FAL Files. Come on.
Yeah but they are giving him sound advice. A .308 ar is gonna be more accurate than the average FAL.
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Old November 15, 2012, 22:43   #55
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Yeah but they are giving him sound advice. A .308 ar is gonna be more accurate than the average FAL.
Not all, my brother in law got a RRA , it's the standard and looks like an overgrown standard AR. It shot about 2.5 inch groups. My STG not only shot smaller groups but is funner to shoot.

I will stick with my FAL's and G3...dependable if nothing else.
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Old November 16, 2012, 00:26   #56
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I've never been in the poop, so I have nothing to contribute regarding reliability under poor conditions. I have, however, been to lots of rifle classes at TR (Oregon and Texas), SI, OFA, etc. I have never seen an AR-308 of any type make it through a class (~750 rounds) without crapping the bed. Under ideal conditions.

I'm not saying that the Larue OBR or the Knights couldn't do it. I'm not even saying that one of the others couldn't do it. I've just seen a high percentage of them NOT do it. Yes, it is a small sample.

On top of this, I'm assuming we're not doing a good job of comparing apples to apples here: how many guys trying to find out if their FAL is a 2MOA rifle are shooting match or hand-loads through the rifle? Yeah - that's what I thought: most people are shooting 'surp through them. Are those AR-308s shooting 2MOA with Port and SA? Maybe, maybe not.

Finally, if the ARs are 2MOA rifles with less-than-match ammo, and the FALs are 3MOA rifles with the same ammo, but the FALs will last like Ol' Dirty, then they are performing EXACTLY like they were built to perform.

If I were a weapons sgt who shot off of benches at the range, had an unlimited bench full of parts, and could fix and clean anything without the problem of re-supply, I might take a DPMS .308, too. If I were going to have a rifle that was going to be there and be man-accurate to 400 with iron sights for 15,000 rounds without a re-barrel, and wouldn't break anything for the same round count, and was something I was going to bet my bippy on, I think I'd take the FAL.

Someone who keeps hanging around an FAL board so they can talk about how crappy it is says more about himself than he does about the rifle. The rifle spoke for itself when it was adopted by 99 nations, and did what it was supposed to do in difficult times all over planet earth for the better part of four decades.

That's not a "FAIL" - that's a definitive statement based on achievement and real performance in real places.
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Old November 16, 2012, 02:58   #57
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Someone who keeps hanging around an FAL board so they can talk about how crappy it is says more about himself than he does about the rifle. The rifle spoke for itself when it was adopted by 99 nations, and did what it was supposed to do in difficult times all over planet earth for the better part of four decades.

That's not a "FAIL" - that's a definitive statement based on achievement and real performance in real places.
FALs are not a great glorious rifle........they are a classic relic and popular with hobbyist due to being prevalent and cheap.
I own 2 FALs but they are outclassed by the HK and even the AR type.
What about me? I'm not a band wagon schlub like yourself who is stuck on a weapon type.
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Old November 16, 2012, 05:45   #58
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Hmm..in all this thread,nobody mentions an M1A..
Me..I like the FAL. AR? eh..maybe in .243
Now..maybe if they made ARs in .338 federal,or .358 Win.

As an edit: the Vepr in .308 is very tempting.

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Old November 16, 2012, 11:56   #59
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Hmm..in all this thread,nobody mentions an M1A..
Me..I like the FAL. AR? eh..maybe in .243
Now..maybe if they made ARs in .338 federal,or .358 Win.

As an edit: the Vepr in .308 is very tempting.
I agree completely about the VEPR. I think it would bear looking at.

You could do a lot worse than an M1A, as a matter of fact there are a lot of suggested rifles here that are. For shooting with plain, reliable, don't fail irons tell me what beats it? A Garand?

That being said, once you do figure out what really neato cool type of rifle you just have to have, tote it around the the hills a few days and report back.
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Old November 16, 2012, 20:32   #60
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The thread has actually morphed some no doubt but there's still good info being posted..

The OP originally asked about rifles in the $1000.00-$1200.00 price point.
Those rifles have been touched on and good recommendations where made.

Other rifles came into the mix that don't even come close to that price, I for one was part of that and apologize if the thread wondered off track.. Rifles in that mix now include the M1A which unless ya find a great deal or straight up hose someone aint gonna be had for $1000.00 unless you also own a fuggin time machine..

The VEPR is a nice rifle and does come "close" to that price point. However Mags are tough to find and retail for $60.00. I know this for a fact because we just ordered and sold them to a Customer yesterday.. The Mag availability and price takes this rifle completely off the table for me..
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Old November 16, 2012, 20:33   #61
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Is the VEPR just another bastard AK?
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Old November 16, 2012, 20:40   #62
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Is the VEPR just another bastard AK?
IMHO, yes....
Nice looking rifle though and seem to be well made. The customer I reference above seems thrilled with his but I suspect he's never shot a Nice FAL, SCAR, AR type .308, HK91, or even an M1A so a true comparison is prob lost on him?

While I do like my PSL, and it is accurate, the pencil barrel takes it out of the running as a true DMR.. However a number of the rifles listed above could fill that roll pretty well..

MOLOT link:
http://www.molot-usa.com/
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Old November 16, 2012, 22:33   #63
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FALs are not a great glorious rifle........they are a classic relic and popular with hobbyist due to being prevalent and cheap.
I own 2 FALs but they are outclassed by the HK and even the AR type.
What about me? I'm not a band wagon schlub like yourself who is stuck on a weapon type.
I agree: FALs are a classic. I don't know what you mean by relic, but if it means that it is something from a by-gone era, I agree with that, too.

Cheap? Low-priced? Maybe: you definitely couldn't build one for what you can buy them for right now. Seems like ARs are cheaper, but I'm no expert on the matter.

"Outclassed" depends on how you choose to define it: there's not an AR on planet earth that is as tough as an FAL. Are those ARs you named as superior (DPMS, etc.) better because they shoot tighter groups under ideal conditions, or because they can chomp through some grit and mud and keep on trucking? It only depends on what you prefer to call "class".

I am not stuck on a weapon type. I own AKs that I have built. I own FALs that I have built. I own LMT ARs. I own POF piston ARs. I own bolt guns. I own lots of things. One thing I am NOT, is "stuck" on a "weapon type". I didn't buy an FAL to get with a group of people, so I don't think "band wagon" applies, either. I mean, are you a band-wagon lover of the SCAR because someone had it before you, or did you do some research and make your own decision? Or you wish you were a JSOC Delta Ninja and had to settle for one of their rifles, so you're a fan-boi? Sounds a little silly, doesn't it.

Finally, I may be a "schlub", but I guess that depends on who's doing the naming. If a "schlub" is a silly little boy who hangs out with people who generally like discussing a rifle that they can build and enjoy, for the sole purpose of running his mouth about how much better his toys are, then I am definitely not a 'schlub'. If a schlub is a person who points out to silly little boys shouting "My toys are better - neener, neener, neener!!!" that this is widely regarded by grown-ups to be bad behavior, then I definitely AM a schlub.

I'll wear that with pride.
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Old November 16, 2012, 22:52   #64
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FALs are not a great glorious rifle........they are a classic relic and popular with hobbyist due to being prevalent and cheap.
I own 2 FALs but they are outclassed by the HK and even the AR type.
What about me? I'm not a band wagon schlub like yourself who is stuck on a weapon type.
Keep going Jeffery, you only need to blather out about 30k more posts to secure your position as king Asshat above your mentor DABTL...I'm root'in for ya!!
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Old November 16, 2012, 23:16   #65
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Keep going Jeffery, you only need to blather out about 30k more posts to secure your position as king Asshat above your mentor DABTL...I'm root'in for ya!!
Looking at what you have posted on here it's purely social and you have nothing to offer. You have no idea what I do or my depth of knowledge. I have some very strong opinions on weapons for a reason.
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Old November 17, 2012, 00:00   #66
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Looking at what you have posted on here it's purely social and you have nothing to offer. You have no idea what I do or my depth of knowledge. I have some very strong opinions on weapons for a reason.
Your right, it is a social place for me. But really, Nothing to offer?

Crap man, I've offered up far more in the way of assistance to other local (and distant) Fal friends than I`ve ever seen you offer. Ask those folks wether or not I have anything to offer. How many people here have you helped Jeffery?

You just seem to come here to pooo-pooo the Fal, and offer your "Strong opinions", about various weapons. Good for you, you can add another gold star to your potty chart.

Shit man, I have opinions too. If you want people to respect yours, offer them up as such....Respectful. Instead of the "You have no idea what I do or the depth of my knowledge" card.
Jeez Rambo, get over yourself.
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Old November 17, 2012, 00:09   #67
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At this point I would get a Remington 700 or something like that and pretend it's an autoloader.
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Old November 17, 2012, 00:58   #68
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If I had to choose one rifle as my all purpose go-to the fal would be it.
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Old November 17, 2012, 07:29   #69
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Jeffery has strong opinions on guns based on running around on weekends with the Guard or what the folks over at Warrior Talk, Glock Talk and M4 Carbine have to say. Very little of his opinions are based on his own personal experience in combat with them unlike some of us here who have used the L1A1 to actually shoot people with in combat.

Brunop brings up a good point about .308 AR reliability in classes and such but I have to think this is more a function of the participants not running their guns hard prior to the class and hence, not being aware of issues that might arise. On the other hand, good, intense classes are well beyond the level of what use any civilian owned weapon might reasonably or realistically be expected to put to short of all out war. Even in the event of the complete collapse of society, it is unlikely you would punch out 750 rounds over a couple or 3 days, especially with little breaks between firing. Unless of course, you happen to get stuck in a mall with thousands of zombies floating around outside......

For what the OP indicated the requirements were, a .308 AR based off the common DPMS style rifle would fit the bill perfectly. CMMG would be my choice.
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Old November 17, 2012, 08:43   #70
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At this point I would get a Remington 700 or something like that and pretend it's an autoloader.
Aside,I would NOT buy a Remington autoloader.I've yet to see one that actually functioned reliably.
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Old November 17, 2012, 10:05   #71
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Then howcome your names not "308 Auto"?
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Old November 17, 2012, 11:25   #72
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Yeah but they are giving him sound advice. A .308 ar is gonna be more accurate than the average FAL.
In the OP, no mention was made of 400-600 yd hunting shots. I'm not sure if Mosby ever did say that in subsequent posts, but the thread evolved into that POV.
As someone else said, 90% of hunters have no business taking such a shot.
Mosby also said his friend wants a "good 308 semi auto." for around a grand. IMO the FAL fills the bill.
If money was no object, I would have recommended the Larue OBR.
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Old November 17, 2012, 20:05   #73
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In the OP, no mention was made of 400-600 yd hunting shots. I'm not sure if Mosby ever did say that in subsequent posts, but the thread evolved into that POV.
As someone else said, 90% of hunters have no business taking such a shot.
Mosby also said his friend wants a "good 308 semi auto." for around a grand. IMO the FAL fills the bill.
If money was no object, I would have recommended the Larue OBR.
Yeah......the fal is a great choice. Know for being finicky and having feed issues...then there's the horrible sights on a 4 MOA rifle at best.
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Old November 17, 2012, 21:23   #74
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Known for being finicky where - in your century-built POWs, or just the ones you built? Saying stupid stuff that has no basis in reality may work in front of your guard friends who think that armorers know lots of stuff, or over on arf-com, but isn't going to fly here.

Oh, and front posts and rear apertures aren't any more "horrible" than most other rifles with front posts and rear apertures.

Keep on keeping on - your strong opinions are of great importance to you; other people are making their decisions based on your presentation. So far, no good.

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Yeah......the fal is a great choice. Know for being finicky and having feed issues...then there's the horrible sights on a 4 MOA rifle at best.
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Old November 17, 2012, 21:31   #75
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Thanks for all input. I have re-read all posts in this thread and don't know why I dropped the CMMG off the short list. Not a done deal yet but have shortened the DPMS list to three based mostly on price but dropping the Sporticle. In no particular order and all under $1100.
1. AP4
2. Oracle
3. RFLR-308T
4. CMMG? Which model?

We don't hunt (yet) we are just social creatures looking to the future.

Off topic but my bro in L is getting some stunning (to me) results with his Rem 700.
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Old November 17, 2012, 21:52   #76
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Known for being finicky where - in your century-built POWs, or just the ones you built? Saying stupid stuff that has no basis in reality may work in front of your guard friends who think that armorers know lots of stuff, or over on arf-com, but isn't going to fly here.

Oh, and front posts and rear apertures aren't any more "horrible" than most other rifles with front posts and rear apertures.

Keep on keeping on - your strong opinions are of great importance to you; other people are making their decisions based on your presentation. So far, no good.
Your a troll obsessing on a moderately good weapon.....your a joke.
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Old November 18, 2012, 00:10   #77
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Your a troll.....
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Old November 18, 2012, 02:34   #78
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Your a troll obsessing on a moderately good weapon.....your a joke.
That would be "You're a troll obsessing on a moderately good weapon... you're a joke" - since I don't own any "a troll[s]". You're welcome.

I'm not a troll - I'm pointing out that you are saying things that aren't true. And since I'm doing such a good job of it, and since you can't refute it, you are going down to the ad hominem attack level - the sure sign of a loser in any argument. Normal for someone who has strong opinions of his own "strong opinions", and finds out that no one cares - or isn't buying your BS.

And, as I pointed out earlier, I don't obsess on FALs - I buy lots of them, and keep the ones I like. I do the same thing with 1911s (another relic), ARs, custom bolt guns, and piston guns of various types. I like FALs, but not to the point of obsessing or liking beyond what I suppose is normal - lots of people seem to like them.

So let's get back to why you hang out on a (wait for it...) FAL Files forum - when your strong opinions based on lots of experience classes in the National Guard lead you to believe the rifle is a "FAIL", "finicky", and mostly a crappy old "relic". Is that because you like spreading your own version of the gospel to people, or because you want to shout "Look at me!" over and over again?

Thanks for calling me a joke - I'd rather have that from you than you assert your strong opinion that I was a "really great guy".
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Old November 18, 2012, 04:03   #79
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Give it up, Jefferyc22. You're just digging yourself a deeper hole, and making yourself out to be a bigger fool in the eyes of everyone here.

I had no intention of getting involved in this argument until you started taking things to a personal level against 4x401 (one of the most selfless and generous people on this forum) and Brunop (who has volunteered countless hours as a moderator and has demonstrated his knowledge and skills over and over again), but when you derail a thread to engage in childish name-calling, it's time to step in and say "cut the bullshit".

Finally, as a former member of your National Guard battalion, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from bringing your limited experience into the argument. We know you're an armorer, and that counts for something, but unless you've done things the rest of us don't know about, you've never had to rely on your weapon to protect your life, spent months in extreme field conditions with it, put it up against other weapons, or used it in any other situation other than recreation.
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Old November 18, 2012, 04:36   #80
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I'm a little late to this party but what's wrong with the Saiga in 308 at 599.99 from Classic arms? AK reliability. Cheap enough to even buy a few mags and a crate of ammo. I still like the FAL better. But you wanted something in a tough price range. I do not like the Stoner designs. AR's are never talked about around me by people that know how cantankerous I can be. I LOVE M1's Garands and Carbines, 1911 A1's and Fals! Does that tell you anything? I would rather have a good M1 carbine than a box full of Abarfs. Have we ever won a war with that thing? oh yeah, Granada, 5 days in hell, right! The line is hot! A wise man would not impune Brunop's or 4x401's integrety!
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Old November 18, 2012, 13:29   #81
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So I'm thinking about the ARs mentioned (CMMG, DPMS, other) as a $1000 solution to a >$1000 problem.

The OP wants a rifle in .308 that can do a lot of things:

1) deal with social problems that may occur in the future
2) hunt
3) be reliable
4) be accurate
5) lots of rounds available (semi auto, box mag fed)

And unless a person is going to spend $2700 - $3300 for a SCAR, LaRue, KAC, or an LWRC, it seems like numbers 3 & 4 are going to be more or less inversely proportional to each other: the more accurate the rifle, the less reliable.

I don't think 1MOA accuracy, which some people think the CMMG and DPMS rifles are capable of (with match ammo), is necessary unless you are tasked with head shots at 400 yards. Is it great to have? You bet! Will it help a person achieve numbers 1, 2, 3, & 5? Not so much.

I don't know any reason on earth that a person who was truly interested in solving social problems with a rifle would skimp on reliability and proven track record in the name of 1MOA accuracy - when the 1MOA accuracy doesn't actually help achieve the stated aims. I have a story...

I was in Germany for a month about four years ago. While driving on the autobahn, I saw several cars which were several miles back start flashing their headlights at the person in the left-most lane - just ahead of me (and to my left). The driver of that vehicle fairly 'dove' for the right lane (directly in front of me), and barely made it out of the lane as three Porsche 911s (or some better model) came flying by. I was doing 180 kph, and I guessed they were doing 300 or greater.

Later, by coincidence, I was at my hotel when these three Porsches came into the parking area. The drivers got out, and were laughing and shaking hands with each other, etc. I walked over and asked if any of them happened to speak English, which they all did. I asked the guy what their cars' top speed was - he said 330 kph (220 mph). I asked him how fast he was going when he passed the maroon-colored Daimler-Benz Sprinter van. He laughed, and said "which one?" Then he said, "when we rally, we are typically running around 280 to 300 on the autobahn sections that allow it."

Then he said (the point of the story), "I don't understand why anyone in America would spend the money to purchase one of these cars - there is no place to make use of the engineering."

So I get that SCARs are cool, and I get that they are better than FALs in many respects. But we're not talking about $1,000 rifles versus $2,700 rifles. We are talking about $1,000 versus $1,000.

If I were buying for the above-mentioned list (which I may have misunderstood or gotten completely wrong), I wouldn't sacrifice reliability for accuracy that doesn't matter to the mission. If I were solving social problems with a rifle, I wouldn't want that to be the time that I needed to take my car to the shop, so to speak.
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Old November 18, 2012, 17:40   #82
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Then howcome your names not "308 Auto"?
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Old November 18, 2012, 17:42   #83
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I agree completely about the VEPR. I think it would bear looking at.
I had one and hated it....probably THE MOST inaccurate rifle I ever owned.

I think I still have a pic of it. found it..........

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Old November 18, 2012, 19:37   #84
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...and you were shooting FCC GMM in it, right?

Oh, that's right - you were shooting Wolf in it. I'm not saying that it was an accurate rifle otherwise; I'm pointing out that we continually compare apples and oranges with the various rifles we shoot.

I shot Privi "match" in a Moses-built G1 with a not-nearly-new barrel at an Oregon FAL Shoot a few years ago. I won the King Shot and the Sniper Match with that rifle. With iron sights.

The guys who are saying that the FAL isn't accurate enough for its job are shooting crappy rifles - either that they built incorrectly, they purchased from someone else who built them incorrectly, or built with badly degraded components.

Or all of the variables above, along with suspect mil-surp (or mil-surp that is great, but each from differing manufacturers [or lots] all in one shooting session). What could possibly go wrong?

C'mon, J. Mosby - you need a FAL for your near $1,000 solution. I'll sell you an Imbel kit I was keeping back. Get an Imbel receiver. Send it to Gunplumber for assembly + metacol. You'll be in the thing about $1150, and you'll have a rifle that will take you through thick and thin. For the $1,600 you saved on not getting a SCAR, you can buy 3200 rounds of .308. Or a great optic. Or some of both - optic & ammo. And while it won't be as accurate as a SCAR, it will be every bit as reliable. And plenty accurate to do what you need it to do.
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Old November 18, 2012, 21:37   #85
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FWIW, I think my OBR is prob the nicest AR type rifle I've ever seen, fired, and certainly owned.. BUT it came with a very large price tag and I don't even have the optic I want YET..
That being said I still own more FAL's then any other rifle or type (AR's are close). The reason being is they do what I need them to do every time and do it with regularity and reliability..
While I do like and am impressed by the FAL's history, it's much more then that for me.. I just think not only are they great rifles but they are great rifles at a reasonable price, and a hoot to shoot..
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Old November 18, 2012, 22:10   #86
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I have a DSA stg-58 that shoots 3 1/2" that I am satisfied with but I don't want another one right now. We're looking for about 1 1/2" w/surplus hopefully.

If I could get a 1 1/2" FAL for $1100, we would be interested.
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Old November 18, 2012, 22:14   #87
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I understand wanting to have something other then an FAL & think the CMMG would fit your requirements well...
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Old November 19, 2012, 01:06   #88
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I just got done doing quarterlies on 160 of my weapons. Got up at 0445 on a Sunday to do my job. My CWO wants me to go around to the other companies in the battalion to square them away because I'm so high drag. It's insulting to here arguments from most of you lame brains. I am not an armorer....an armorer hands out weapons and secures the vault. Most of you on here are complete douchbags or think with your prior service it qualifies you to talk shitt to current service members....piss off. There are a few of rank on here that could fuckk me up if they wanted to. Guess what? They aren't the ones talking shitt to me. I'm off to bed you piss ants.
gman? g nothing you old shitt.
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Old November 19, 2012, 01:22   #89
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Of course it's "insulting" to hear that one's highly held opinions are of no interest to grown ups - especially when other people's opinions are based on experience superior to one's own.

Of course it's "insulting" to hear that the rank BS you've been spewing isn't holding up to the low level of scrutiny that someone as inexperienced as myself can hold it up to. Getting smacked in the gob because you were running your mouth is never a pleasant experience. Some people even learn from it.

You made it work on time?!! Congratulations. Lots of people do it with regularity - and they don't talk about it like its a great accomplishment.

No one is "talking shit" to you - people are pointing out to you that when you either: a) make stuff up, or b) talk about how great your opinions are, you should expect either to back it up with something credible, or to find out that people aren't buying what you are selling. If that hurts your feelings, that isn't on any person besides you.

"High drag" indeed. You couldn't have set that in stone any better than with the last sentence of your post. Of course someone like you would say that a combat veteran is an "old shit" when he points out the obvious weaknesses in your presented arguments. Remember what I said about lowering yourself to the level of ad hominem attack - and that it was proof positive that you were losing an argument? This is that. Again.
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Old November 19, 2012, 01:28   #90
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Of course it's "insulting" to hear that one's highly held opinions are of no interest to grown ups - especially when other people's opinions are based on experience superior to one's own.

Of course it's "insulting" to hear that the rank BS you've been spewing isn't holding up to the low level of scrutiny that someone as inexperienced as myself can hold it up to. Getting smacked in the gob because you were running your mouth is never a pleasant experience. Some people even learn from it.

And you even made it work on time?!! Congratulations. Lots of people do it with regularity - and they don't talk about it like its a great accomplishment.

No one is "talking shit" to you - people are pointing out to you that when you either: a) make stuff up, or b) talk about how great your opinions are, you should expect to either back it up with something credible, or find out that people aren't buying what you are selling. If that hurts your feelings, that isn't on any person besides you.

"High drag" indeed. You couldn't have set that in stone any better than with the last sentence of your post. Of course someone like you would say that a combat veteran is an "old shit" when he points out the obvious weaknesses in your presented arguments. Remember what I said about lowering yourself to the level of ad hominem attack - and that it was proof positive that you were losing an argument? This is that. Again.
On and on you go. Why don't you fill us in on your vast knowledge armchair?
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:01   #91
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Here's my vast knowledge:

1) I've hired and fired lots of people who thought that their opinions were worthwhile - whether those opinions were based on reality, real-world experience, and success - or not.

2) I've noticed that people who hang out in any group for no other purpose than to draw attention to themselves by saying (in effect), "Look at me - I'm so smart", or "My stuff is better than your stuff", are either deficient in their own heads and needy, or are lacking in true achievement, and want to make up for it by spouting off what little they know very loudly. Or both.

3) I've noticed over the years that people who spend their time cutting down other people's efforts or interests are saying more about themselves than the people who's interests they are pooping on.

4) I've noticed that those same people will, in their effort to draw attention to themselves, say things that just don't add up. Things like I've pointed out previously (the FAL is a "FAIL", "horrible", "finicky", etc.). Things that you expect (hope?) people will just accept as "fact" because you said it (see number 1 above).

5) I've noticed that those same people get really angry (mostly at themselves) when someone points out that the BS is BS, and that the opinions are based on something that is less than credible.

6) And I've noticed that when this happens, the same people start calling names and attacking the persons who don't buy their BS. As if calling the gman an "old shit" will somehow make your opinion more valuable. What a laugh - I'm sure people think you're right, now.

My experience with FALs is limited - something I've said multiple times here. I believe I started my tiny contribution to this thread by saying "I've never been in the shit..." (of course, neither have you). I have shot FALs in several rifle classes at some well-known schools. It definitely doesn't make me a Delta Operator - but I don't aspire to be one, and I've never hidden what my (non) service record is.

I've built ten or so FALs. They all run and run. And, interestingly enough, they are all much better shooters than 4MOA. Is it because I'm a better shot than you, or is it because I am a better builder than you? Or is it because you are basing your opinion of FALs on a small sample of crappy rifles. Your "finicky" comment is one of the dumbest things I've read on this site. And you didn't say that your rifles were "finicky", you said that FALs were "known" for being finicky. Really.

Finally, I know that I don't have anything near the experience that many professionals in the firearms industry have with the FAL (or other weapons), and I don't have the experience that many people in the armed services have with the FAL or other weapons. But I don't show up at sites saying things like "I have really strong opinions for good reason" (or some stupid stuff like that), and then say stuff that is completely nonsensical.

My vast knowledge, therefore, is based mostly on a few things I've learned over the years:

1) if you can't back up what you are saying, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT

2) calling people names (douchebags has an 'e' in it, and "old shit" to a man who: a) has a combat record, b) has had a firearms manufacturing business - on his own dime, mind you, and c) has kids your age and could still give you a run for your money) is just plain ignorant and stupid. If you can't make an intelligent argument, then KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT

3) hanging out to do nothing but piss in other people's Cheerios is bad behavior. If you can't say anything nice, then KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT

4) Properly built FALs with decent barrels will shoot better than 4MOA. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that other people can't. When you suck at something, you should KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT

You're welcome.
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:10   #92
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Like I thought......."I've noticed"
Push off.
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:13   #93
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Noticing things (making proper assessments) is a fundamental sign of intelligence.

Insulting your superiors in both intellect and experience (the gman) is a fundamental sign of stupidity.

I've been trying not to say it so bluntly, but you are in need of a dose of reality. Good luck. I mean that.
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:25   #94
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Noticing things (making proper assessments) is a fundamental sign of intelligence.

Insulting your superiors in both intellect and experience (the gman) is a fundamental sign of stupidity.

I've been trying not to say it so bluntly, but you are in need of a dose of reality. Good luck. I mean that.
I'll see you at the Oregon shoot sweetheart
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Old November 19, 2012, 02:47   #95
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Excellent. I look forward to it.
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Old November 19, 2012, 14:23   #96
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My preliminary search finds CMMG's about $200 more than DPMS. DPMS seems to have a better selection and more readly available than CMMG.
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Old November 19, 2012, 18:55   #97
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I recently purchased an ar(300 b/o) from CMMG and found them a really good company to deal with. Fyi.
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Old November 19, 2012, 19:34   #98
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I agree completely about the VEPR. I think it would bear looking at.
I've been eyeballing the heck out of the .308 VEPR. Read some reports where guys were getting much better than 2moa with quality ammunition. The plus for me is I could start stacking that cheap steel cased crap away for blasting and not worry about a KB in a FAL.

OP's budget was $1200, that's six bills for the VEPR itself and six more for mags ($40 each), a more versatile stock, optic mount and optic, and ammo. After getting my greasy palms on Brunos AK I've become quite a fan of the simplicity of Kalashnikov type stuff. Pretty sure this is where my holiday money is going this year.
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Old November 19, 2012, 20:09   #99
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Excellent. I look forward to it.
I've seen you shoot.

I'm kinda looking forward to it too.
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Old November 20, 2012, 12:49   #100
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I love the L1A1. Have done from the first time I saw one as a kid in the UK and that love was only deepened through service first in the Army Cadet Force (from age 13) and then into the British Army proper for 12 years. I was issued an L1A1 for the first 4 years of my service and used and carried one in Gulf War 1. I hated the SA80 for it took away my 'real' rifle and replaced it with something in a lesser caliber with much worse balance. Ultimately, I came to appreciate the SA80 for what it was and begrudgingly accepted it. I would love to own one for old time's sake.

I can't really accept the metric version of the FAL; the stock height is wrong for me, the pistol grip is at too much of a rake, I hate the fixed charging handle, the front sight is a PITA to adjust, the horizontal body locking catch hits my hand when I shoot and the safety is too short to easily manipulate among other faults compared to the L1A1.

I guess I have owned about 60 FAL's in the last 7 years and still own more a bunch. I have hunted with them, shot targets with them and built more than a few custom one off versions. I own them with match grade replacement heavy barrels, have 'em in .260 and .358 Win as well as .308. I'm currently building a suppressed shorty in .308 for use on duty as I vacillate between .308 and 6.8 as a duty rifle.

In short, I love the damn rifle to bits. It is a thoroughly proven weapon that has stood the test of time and can be made to shoot well but it does take a little effort. I am not blind to it's shortcomings as a whole; parts are not really interchangeable like barrels and bolts as readily as AR's. The FAL can be difficult to scope without the right scope mount. Williams QD Pro is THE mount with the Grenadier Precision COP coming a close second. Both are out of production and have been for some years. The DSA is a reasonably decent work around but it has it's own issues.

Why did I not recommend a FAL/L1A1 pattern rifle over the AR? Simply for what the OP listed as his requirements for his BIL, the FAL was not in the running. The FAL is a connoisseurs rifle whereas the AR is an every man's rifle. There is no doubt the FAL is flat out rugged and reliable but they can be so damn frustrating to get to shoot well sometimes, even with all new parts including the barrel, AMHIK!!

I think the 1 MOA thing is a distraction; there are plenty of rifles out there that have the MECHANICAL accuracy that enable them to out shoot their owners. Equally, there are more than a few shooters who can make the rifle perform at its best, even if it doesn't shoot 1 MOA.

The AR style rifle has the ability to be easily scoped, to change pistol grips, stocks, hand guards and barrels. The trigger is often the Achilles heel of the FAL where as the AR rifle has a TON of great triggers available for it. It is a simple matter to mount a bi pod or light or other devices without affecting accuracy at all.

I am not blind to the imperfections of all the rifles mentioned, whether it be price, difficulty in changing parts/obtaining spares, ergonomics or whatever. The OP had a very specific set of criteria he wanted to be fulfilled; given his list, the FAL is not the best solution nor the only possible solution. Personally, the DPMS/CMMG rifles offer the best blend and value for money given the OP's list of requirements. We all have our biases and every well thought out, eloquently argued point serves the purpose of informing him as to possible options but ultimately, it is his BIL's money and decision to make.

As for Jeffery? Well, he suffers from the arrogance of youth for which there are only two possible cures; getting older or sometimes a good ass whupping from what he would prolly label a 'geezer'....... No, I'm not offering violence towards him, just stating the possibility some older guy may decide to kick his ass when he runs his mouth at the wrong time.

He will learn sooner or (probably) later that he really doesn't know half as much as he thinks he does. I did many years ago. There is no point debating or arguing with him as he is too arrogant to acknowledge there may be others in this world who have done more, seen more and learned more than he ever could if he had two lifetimes to burn instead of one.

BTW, I got up at 0530 this morning to get ready for court so I could testify at the trial of a DWI driver I caught in March when she was intoxicated at more than twice the legal limit. She was also driving without a license, running red lights and stop signs, had an open beer with her and could have killed someone through her reckless actions. This is called doing your job and I expect no approbation for doing it. Jeffery seems to think that eyeballing a few AR's is a cause for all here to kneel down and lick his boots when it surely isn't anything out of the ordinary. Such is the arrogance and immaturity of youth......
__________________
A sucking chest wound is God's way of telling you that you will take no further part in the firefight.

God is on the side, not of the big battalions, but of the best shots- Voltaire

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
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