"I just fugking shot myself!" - shooter report follow-up - Page 2

**skeeterbay** · October 28, 2012, 18:07

Yea Andy that's what I mean and now I am going to have trouble sleeping.

RG Coburn · October 28, 2012, 18:21

I know my Ruger P90 ain't the most popular gun on the planet,but you'd be hard pressed to do an accidental discharge with it,hammer down. No safety of any kind,just a long-assed deliberate trigger pull on double action.Single action,the trigger is pretty good,and its fairly accurate.

**tdb59** · October 28, 2012, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyC

Like this guy:

As you mentioned, caused by a worn holster:

Another case for checking our gear, replacing before it is necessary, and not going cheap.

I am extremely frugal...... really frugal.....Scotch....

My holsters cost $ 150.00 and up, sheaths are near that, and all are custom, hand made, to fit my needs.

Hospitals and attorneys are more costly than good gear that fits.

**skeeterbay** · October 28, 2012, 21:12

Myself, I prefer a holster that is broke in fairly well and allows a nice and smooth draw. I can remember when we use to do all sorts of things to our revolver holsters to make them less stiff and allow for a decent draw.

emcroy · October 29, 2012, 07:09

I carry a 1911 on duty in a Serpa holster.

Search for Rob Leatham and note his advice on the draw.

The thumb's not on the safety or the finger on the trigger until the pistol is coming up on target.

gunshack · October 29, 2012, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyC

Like this guy:

As you mentioned, caused by a worn holster:

Holey cow hide

chet · October 29, 2012, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

I know my Ruger P90 ain't the most popular gun on the planet,but you'd be hard pressed to do an accidental discharge with it,hammer down. No safety of any kind,just a long-assed deliberate trigger pull on double action.Single action,the trigger is pretty good,and its fairly accurate.

Accidental discharge? True, since your P90 DAO is still equipped with a firing pin safety is is unlikely it will fire without depressing the trigger.

Negligent discharge? Pull the trigger, your P90 will go boom just like the rest of the guns we are talking about.

A long heavy trigger full of mush and creep does not a "safe" gun make. Ask NYPD.

It's the tool behind the tool that makes the difference.

RG Coburn · October 29, 2012, 15:27

What I'm saying is there ain't much you could do to it other than deliberately pull the trigger to make it go boom. I don't think theres a holster made than could bugger the trigger enough to cause it to discharge.I doubt dropping it would do much either.Still won't carry it hammer cocked.

chet · October 29, 2012, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

What I'm saying is there ain't much you could do to it other than deliberately pull the trigger to make it go boom.

And what I'm saying is that is also true for the 1911 with the exception that a cocked and locked 1911 has two active safeties that yours does not which means a poor holster design that activates the trigger will not cause a 1911 to fire like it would on your P90.

The cocked hammer looks spooky but as AndyC tried to point out to you, there are millions of Americans that carry "cocked and locked" single action rifles, many of them select fire, every day and their one active safety seems to work fine low these past 70ish years.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.

Ironhandjohn · October 29, 2012, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdb59

Pay no attention to TV and Movies, where jackhole actors have been told by jackhole directors to cock a loaded 1911 for effect. It is formula for disaster to set up, and to accomplish.
This is called Condition Two, but is really Conditioned DooDoo.

The older Detonics Combat Master 1911s were supposedly meant to be carried in Condition 2. The rear of the slide was even sloped toward the hammer and the rear sight moved forward, in order to make it easier for the thumb to reach the hammer spur. Granted, this was the height of 1970s gunfighter mindset, and we know more about things these days.

Look at the angle of the slide here

not my pic)

**tdb59** · October 29, 2012, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironhandjohn

The older Detonics Combat Master 1911s were supposedly meant to be carried in Condition 2. The rear of the slide was even sloped toward the hammer and the rear sight moved forward, in order to make it easier for the thumb to reach the hammer spur. Granted, this was the height of 1970s gunfighter mindset, and we know more about things these days.

Look at the angle of the slide here

not my pic)

I do not believe that to be the case.

Page 6, c, ii

http://stevespages.com/pdf/detonics_combatmaster.pdf

AndyC · October 30, 2012, 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by chet

The cocked hammer looks spooky but as AndyC tried to point out to you, there are millions of Americans that carry "cocked and locked" single action rifles, many of them select fire, every day and their one active safety seems to work fine low these past 70ish years.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.

I'm glad someone noticed the point I was trying to make

partisan50 · October 30, 2012, 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcroy

I carry a 1911 on duty in a Serpa holster.

The thumb's not on the safety or the finger on the trigger until the pistol is coming up on target.

Exactly, this Dude screwed up big time by placing his finger in the trigger guard before he cleared the holster and had already popped off the safety. This AD has nothing to do with holster design, it's all about proper training with a 1911.

RG Coburn · October 30, 2012, 16:01

How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)

shlomo · October 30, 2012, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)

Condition three for sentries and assorted hoi polloi. Elite troops carry condition one.

It seems cocked and locked scares the administrative types but not the warriors.

**tdb59** · October 30, 2012, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

Condition three for sentries and assorted hoi polloi. Elite troops carry condition one.

It seems cocked and locked scares the administrative types but not the warriors.

IIRC, Charles A. Skelton wrote of being a chaser in the Corps, and being ordered to carry a 1911 with 6 rounds in one magazine, and only one, and the magazine separate from the gun.

AndyC · October 30, 2012, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by partisan50

Exactly, this Dude screwed up big time by placing his finger in the trigger guard before he cleared the holster and had already popped off the safety. This AD has nothing to do with holster design, it's all about proper training with a 1911.

Sorta-kinda, yup.

While even he was the first to admit he was at fault, not the holster, it was a perfect storm of events.

He'd apparently been practising earlier with a different holster which has a retention-lock - needing the thumb to release it. You can see where this is going already, I bet....

Once he switched holsters to one which didn't have a retention-device, his now-ingrained thumb-movement deactivated the safety on his 1911 - in itself not a huge deal.... however - because he'd tried to run before he could walk, he'd gotten into the habit of getting his finger on the trigger way too early in the draw and got bitten for it.

GLS_1956 · November 03, 2012, 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)

In combat, they were carried however the sailor, soldier, marine, or airman wanted to carry them

**idsubgun** · November 06, 2012, 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

I never could understand people who carried hammer-cocked. I don't run around the woods with my levergun hammer cocked..

That's why they invented Glocks. For people too stupid to carry real handguns which are usually cocked and locked.

Sadly that includes most law enforcement.

I've carried a 1911 in Condition One for 35 years or so. Never had any issues.

RG Coburn · November 07, 2012, 05:12

So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?

shlomo · November 07, 2012, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?

I suppose it is. But it ain't "all that" anymore for carry. Times do change.

**idsubgun** · November 07, 2012, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?

I was talking pistols, not revolvers.

John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried in Condition One. The half cock on 1911's was never intended to be used while carrying. Good way to have a AD. The half cock feature was designed as a fail-safe in case your thumb accidently slipped off the hammer while being cocked.
And carrying Condition Three (hammer down on a live cartridge) is an accident waiting to happen.

A properly installed thumb safety, and a properly adjusted grip safety, is all that's needed on a 1911.

kevin134 · November 11, 2012, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by shlomo

Note to self:

Avoid "retention" holsters which have a release actuated by the trigger finger.

That design is a solution in search of a bitch-slap.

I would blame the shooter long before the blackhawk holster he was using. I use one quite often, if you keep your trigger finger straight, you avoid shooting yourself, start to curl that finger so your in the triggerguard quickly, thats when the problem occurs.. if you hit the button properly, your finger is above the triggerguard and along the slide with all the ones I have used(Glock, 1911, 92..) have not found one yet which my finger is in a bent ready to pull trigger state

Olaf · November 11, 2012, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?

I see your point, but the single action colt was not designed to CARRY around cocked with a live round in the cylinder, apples and oranges.

I agree with those who said its just the sight of the hammer being cocked that freaks people out, if they knew how the pistol functions then it wouldnt be an issue IMO. All the people carrying a 1911 that I know all carry "cocked n locked" in case an issue comes up where you NEED your weapon its just a matter of clickin off the safety and your ready to defend, when seconds count your not going to want to/or might not have time have to rack the slide before you can engage the threat, just my .02

shlomo · November 11, 2012, 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin134

I would blame the shooter long before the blackhawk holster he was using. I use one quite often, if you keep your trigger finger straight, you avoid shooting yourself, start to curl that finger so your in the triggerguard quickly, thats when the problem occurs.. if you hit the button properly, your finger is above the triggerguard and along the slide with all the ones I have used(Glock, 1911, 92..) have not found one yet which my finger is in a bent ready to pull trigger state

I am glad that it's worked for you so far, but my take is that using a holster that requires you to press something in or around the trigger while pulling on the gun is just asking for it.

TheRussian · November 14, 2012, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironhandjohn

Literally tears from laughing!!!

**moses** · November 15, 2012, 01:35

And is DAMN lucky he didn't shoot his toe off too!!!!

You can see the bullet strike an inch from his foot!

ronpaulFAL · November 23, 2012, 14:11

Seems to me that this is a good example of training consistently- the same high-quality, well-maintained equipment every time. This is why I use only one holster for each handgun I own.

In terms of his injury, I can tell you that accidental discharges of handguns into the leg are extremely common. That guy should have known that he didn't need an ambulance. Injuries like that, lateral to the femur, with known entry and exit wounds, present very little injury. He would get a physical exam (neurovascular function, which should be normal), some dressing supplies, 20 Vicodin and a nice firm slap in the face from me.

He failed to obey rule #1- finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire. He can blame the SERPA if he wants but the button on those is up towards the frame and he fired well after the gun had been drawn. His finger didn't roll off the button right onto the trigger; he put it there in preparation to fire, and without reason.

V guy · November 24, 2012, 12:14

A Great video to play at Range Officer training, for IDPA, and Cowboy Action!!

Jeeze, you can dressem up, but cannot takem anywhere.......
I think that was Todd Hoffman? Gold Miner?

**SteelonSteel** · November 24, 2012, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRussian

Literally tears from laughing!!!

Well it is much funnier set to music, isn't it?

October 28, 2012, 18:07	#51
skeeterbay Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 20461 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,772	Yea Andy that's what I mean and now I am going to have trouble sleeping. __________________ 'S Rioghal 'Mo Dhream Ard Choille!

October 28, 2012, 21:12	#54
skeeterbay Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 20461 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,772	Myself, I prefer a holster that is broke in fairly well and allows a nice and smooth draw. I can remember when we use to do all sorts of things to our revolver holsters to make them less stiff and allow for a decent draw. __________________ 'S Rioghal 'Mo Dhream Ard Choille!

October 29, 2012, 07:09	#55
emcroy Registered Contributor FALaholic #: 33420 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: IL Posts: 1,007	I carry a 1911 on duty in a Serpa holster. Search for Rob Leatham and note his advice on the draw. The thumb's not on the safety or the finger on the trigger until the pistol is coming up on target. __________________ "It's not that we're that good, it's just that everyone else sucks"

November 15, 2012, 01:35	#77
moses One of the original 400 Contributor FALaholic #: 392 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: charlotte nc usa Posts: 5,471	And is DAMN lucky he didn't shoot his toe off too!!!! You can see the bullet strike an inch from his foot! __________________ . Military rifle steel plate match schedule for 2013, March 9th, May 26th(Sunday), Sept. 14th & Nov. 9th AKA "8.47"

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October 28, 2012, 18:21	#52
RG Coburn Registered FALaholic #: 27406 Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10,867	I know my Ruger P90 ain't the most popular gun on the planet,but you'd be hard pressed to do an accidental discharge with it,hammer down. No safety of any kind,just a long-assed deliberate trigger pull on double action.Single action,the trigger is pretty good,and its fairly accurate.

October 29, 2012, 15:27	#58
RG Coburn Registered FALaholic #: 27406 Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10,867	What I'm saying is there ain't much you could do to it other than deliberately pull the trigger to make it go boom. I don't think theres a holster made than could bugger the trigger enough to cause it to discharge.I doubt dropping it would do much either.Still won't carry it hammer cocked.

October 30, 2012, 16:01	#64
RG Coburn Registered FALaholic #: 27406 Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10,867	How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)

November 07, 2012, 05:12	#70
RG Coburn Registered FALaholic #: 27406 Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 10,867	So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?

November 23, 2012, 14:11	#78
ronpaulFAL Registered FALaholic #: 65535 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: somewhere Posts: 2,159	Seems to me that this is a good example of training consistently- the same high-quality, well-maintained equipment every time. This is why I use only one holster for each handgun I own. In terms of his injury, I can tell you that accidental discharges of handguns into the leg are extremely common. That guy should have known that he didn't need an ambulance. Injuries like that, lateral to the femur, with known entry and exit wounds, present very little injury. He would get a physical exam (neurovascular function, which should be normal), some dressing supplies, 20 Vicodin and a nice firm slap in the face from me. He failed to obey rule #1- finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire. He can blame the SERPA if he wants but the button on those is up towards the frame and he fired well after the gun had been drawn. His finger didn't roll off the button right onto the trigger; he put it there in preparation to fire, and without reason.

November 24, 2012, 12:14	#79
V guy Registered FALaholic #: 10282 Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: miami Posts: 8,206	A Great video to play at Range Officer training, for IDPA, and Cowboy Action!! Jeeze, you can dressem up, but cannot takem anywhere....... I think that was Todd Hoffman? Gold Miner?