Kill the dog-- whoops.

[evan price]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...486_story.html






So shotguns at ten paces might not be a good idea. Duh.....

[L Haney]

Condition of the dog still unknown.

[shlomo]

“Dogs, armed parties, you never know what you are going to encounter when you kick a door in,” Armstrong said. “We have to make life or death decisions, not only about our lives, but about other people’s lives, in less than a second’s notice.”

Wonder if they thought about whether to kick the door for more than a split second?

Kick in somebody's door in the middle of the night, and your dumb ass deserves to get shot.

This kinda shit needs to stop. Like yesterday.

[Thorack]

Well,

At least they had the right house. I dont know what a pistol is that can fire armor piercing bullets is actually, probably an ill informed reporter. I hope said officer will recover and a review of procedures is conducted.

Thorack

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Thorack

I dont know what a pistol is that can fire armor piercing bullets is.

Thorack

A cover story.

[J MOSBY]

About 50 years ago a warrant was served on me. Two officers "knocked" on the door and I asked them, "can I get my coat?" They said yes.

It's not like we are going to wake up one morning and realize we are in a totalitarian society. You can see it happening just as clear as standing on a railroad track watching a freight train coming.

"hand gun capable of firing armor peircing rounds" Dang! Where do you get those at?

[the gman]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Wonder if they thought about whether to kick the door for more than a split second?

Kick in somebody's door in the middle of the night, and your dumb ass deserves to get shot.

This kinda shit needs to stop. Like yesterday.

Saw no mention of it being in the middle of the night.

I personally think we need to legalize all drugs and regulate it rather than trying to keep our fingers in a dam which is engulfing us but I digress.

This was a house inhabited by drug dealers who happen to be into all kindsa other nasty criminal shit, not just drugs. They'll trade dope for stolen property, weapons or anything of value. They ain't your nice neighbor across the street and if they weren't into drug dealing, they'd be into criminal activity period. No mistaken identity here; the house was full of criminals.

Criminals are going to do criminal things and that kinda shit needs to stop too. If I have credible information (like apparently these cops did) that there are armed men inside a house where serious criminal activity is occurring, why would I want to give them a chance to get their guns ready for when I came through the door???

I am no longer in the military or I would just call in an air or arty strike to wipe turds like this off the face of the planet. Yeah, I volunteered for the job and I will gladly stand between criminal scum and innocent citizens everyday BUT I don't have to commit suicide in the process.

I don't know how busy this anti-drug team is but you often don't get the luxury of waiting for them to come out of the house as drug houses are rarely left unattended. Ergo at some point, the house is going to need to get searched and you don't want to see your drug evidence getting flushed nor give potentially desperate criminals the opportunity to get ready to kill you.

No knock warrants are a last resort but even serving a regular search warrant, I can kick the door, I just have to give notice which can take less than a minute. We had to take a door the other night without a warrant when we got a call from a gal getting beat up in a house and the suspect wouldn't open the door. We could hear the fight so for HER safety, we kicked the door in. Or should I have stood outside, pleading for the nice homeowner to open the door before he killed his GF??

AP firing pistol? Hell, every pistol caliber from 9mm up has had AP rounds made for it at one time or another so you prolly have one in the safe right now. I rather think they *might* be talking about an FN 5.7 pistol as the mil rounds ARE completely intended to be AP. Most cops are NOT gun guys and a little bit of knowledge is dangerous; prolly saw the 5.7 and thought it was a nice label to hang on it. Not disagreeing with shlomo in that a label like that makes the raid sound a lot more important.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by the gman

Criminals are going to do criminal things and that kinda shit needs to stop too. If I have credible information (like apparently these cops did) that there are armed men inside a house where serious criminal activity is occurring, why would I want to give them a chance to get their guns ready for when I came through the door???


I don't know how busy this anti-drug team is but you often don't get the luxury of waiting for them to come out of the house as drug houses are rarely left unattended. Ergo at some point, the house is going to need to get searched and you don't want to see your drug evidence getting flushed nor give potentially desperate criminals the opportunity to get ready to kill you.

No knock warrants are a last resort but even serving a regular search warrant, I can kick the door, I just have to give notice which can take less than a minute. We had to take a door the other night without a warrant when we got a call from a gal getting beat up in a house and the suspect wouldn't open the door. We could hear the fight so for HER safety, we kicked the door in. Or should I have stood outside, pleading for the nice homeowner to open the door before he killed his GF??

I don't think we're really all that far apart, since you seem to realize that the drug crime is mala prohibita rather than mala in se. There isn't anybody on either end of drug dealing that isn't in it voluntarily. It isn't worth killing people over, and it isn't worth the cops losing THEIR lives over, either. What, somebody getting killed is worth it to keep a drug dealer from flushing his shit down the toilet? Serious disconnect there somewhere, IMO.

The beaten GF is a very different thing. There is someone inside who is in immediate danger of grave bodily harm. I've thought for DECADES that the only legitimate reason SWAT to execute a breach is if some innocent person inside is about to be killed or maimed.

This crap of assaulting a place you KNOW to be full of armed and belligerent criminals is idiocy. For what? To make some largely theoretical dent in the availability of drugs? Gimme a break.

[JeffJ]

Karma finally comes through in one of these stories!

I still can't believe as a society we allow the police to become an occupying army with complete immunity at the personal level.

The Sheeple may not inherit the earth, but they are going to run the USA for a while.

[J MOSBY]

Gman, I really respect you and your service but here I'm with Shlomo. The more doors that get kicked in and nobody takes responsibility, the madder people get. The more cops get injured or killed doing it, the madder they get. See the problem here? We're supposed to be on the same side.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

Carma finally comes through in one of these stories!

Jeff, yer cillin' me.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by JeffJ

I still can't believe as a society we allow the police to become an occupying army with complete immunity at the personal level.

OTOH:

What we need is some hockey thug to nut-up, and whip their asses into line.

Know anybody like that with the stones? If not, there's your answer.

[JeffJ]

Originally Posted by shlomo

OTOH:

What we need is some hockey thug to nut-up, and whip their asses into line.

Know anybody like that with the stones? If not, there's your answer.

There is no outrage anymore, the water has been sufficiently warmed to the point nobody cares..it only happens in "those" neighborhoods.

I won't comment on any personal experience Nutting up on them...

[Jimi X.]

Originally Posted by the gman

No knock warrants are a last resort.

What about Sheriff Dumpnick, and the warrant that got Jose Gorena of Arizona killed? Wasn't Gorena completely innocent of the accused crime?

Was that "a no knock warrant of last resort"?



.

[ronpaulFAL]

I actually don't have much problem with SWAT teams or cops kicking down doors and taking down criminals. I just want them to take responsibility for when they mess up. Latitude for human can be given in court, but currently there is really no opportunity for redress even if the cop commits an act of gross negligence.

Cops are professionals and I treat them as such. I expect them to gather their evidence carefully, reconnoiter when at all possible, and truly make every effort to limit mistakes. The current system really has no severe penalties for busting down the wrong door and killing the wrong person- a person who can and should be expected to grab a knife when they hear a guy busting down their door.

I hope this makes sense. I am simply calling for a reasonable level of diligence and responsibility on the part of our LEOs. The only way to do that is to enforce penalties when gross mistakes are made. That could include steep fines, reduction in pension, payment of legal fees out of the officer fund, dismissal and even criminal charges.

[L Haney]

Originally Posted by shlomo

The beaten GF is a very different thing. There is someone inside who is in immediate danger of grave bodily harm. I've thought for DECADES that the only legitimate reason SWAT to execute a breach is if some innocent person inside is about to be killed or maimed.

There it is. The ONLY good reason. I don't care if they are innocent or not, sort that out later.

I know beans about being a cop, but I do know a thing or three about risk mitigation. Maybe I need to hang out a consultant shingle and start selling the 'how to', cause the current MO for these operations is killing cops and citizens.

Unfortunately, my methods involve no bravado or glory. Just a vastly lower body count. Probably wouldn't sell.

[0302]

Was the pit whacked or not? Left me hanging. A 12 gage with. 00 would be my choice for whackin pits. Makes for a nice backflip.

Any cop willing to kick in a door and engage an unknown number of bad guys has my respect.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by 0302

Any cop willing to kick in a door and engage an unknown number of bad guys has my respect.

Maybe for guts, but certainly not for brains.

[evan price]

I don't have a problem with no-knocks- IF and only IF certain exigent circumstances are in effect. You don't get to no-knock every warrant. And if you are going to sign off on a warrant you should be taking personal responsibility for what happens if the thing gets cocked up- like your team of Ninjas kicks in the door across the street because they misread the address and pops the innocent homeowner, or like if you have no real credible evidence and the pot plants they thought he had were actually Japanese maple bonsai.

Like I tell my 7-year-old son:

If you want the heightened privelages, you get heightened responsibility.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by evan price

I don't have a problem with no-knocks- IF and only IF certain exigent circumstances are in effect. You don't get to no-knock every warrant. And if you are going to sign off on a warrant you should be taking personal responsibility for what happens if the thing gets cocked up- like your team of Ninjas kicks in the door across the street because they misread the address and pops the innocent homeowner, or like if you have no real credible evidence and the pot plants they thought he had were actually Japanese maple bonsai.

Like I tell my 7-year-old son:

If you want the heightened privelages, you get heightened responsibility.

There is not one thing above that I disagree with.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Jimi X.

What about Sheriff Dumpnick, and the warrant that got Jose Gorena of Arizona killed? Wasn't Gorena completely innocent of the accused crime?

Was that "a no knock warrant of last resort"?

.

Let me amend that to no knock warrants SHOULD be a last resort. They are in my jurisdiction and we absolutely HAVE to justify them with multiple sources of info, surveillance logs and a serious amount of evidence as to why it is necessary.

I cannot speak for what happens in other jurisdictions nor have I ever or will ever defend out and out wrongdoing by other police officers or deputies based upon the fact we do the same job.

That would be like me asking you to defend the actions of idiotic gun owners wherever they happen to be in the USA; after all, you both own guns right??

In EVERY profession, mistakes are made. Doctors kill thousands of folks a year, electricians wire shit wrong and mechanics forget to fill engines with oil; the list is endless. Some mistakes by folks end up killing other citizens, sad as it may be, we live in an imperfect world.

Police officers have the responsibility to ensure their actions are legitimate and accurate. As I have said, no knock warrants are applicable in certain, narrowly defined cases. In some cases, the criminals rarely, if ever, leave a residence unguarded. Many of the criminals involved in the drug trade are extremely violent, usually well armed, often involved in multiple other criminal enterprises such as prostitution, extortion, human trafficking, robbery, murder and many other unsavory activities. Sometimes officers HAVE to enter places to get to them and secure evidence of their crimes. That is simply a fact of life.

Where I have severe issues with no knock warrants or warrants period is when the officers, DA and Judges involved in the issuance and execution thereof are lazy, incompetent, scared or overly arrogant. Even worse is a combination of the foregoing! This is when innocents are killed, officers are shot and the whole LE profession is dragged down into the gutter. There is no reason to issue a no knock warrant for a guy dealing a few ounces of mary jane. There is NO excuse for targeting the WRONG fuggin' house or premises. There is no excuse for raiding a house on the basis of a single, untested informant's information or without any credible corroboration of the information received from another informer.

The local DA should be catching this shit BEFORE it ever gets to a judge; if they fall down, the JUDGE should be kicking this shit back. Ultimately, the chain of command in the LE agency should be fostering an atmosphere of competency and leadership that prevents lousy cops from submitting poorly drafted and inaccurate warrant requests. This would go a VERY long way in preventing the kinds of raids that garner justifiable criticism and condemnation from all right thinking, freedom loving citizens.


L Haney; Risk mitigation could be my fuggin' job title!! I and every other cop does it on a daily basis. Driving down the road, I see a traffic violation so I instantly start thinking about where can I turn round to catch up, what is the speed of the vehicle I need to catch up to and by the time I get turned around, will I be able to catch up to them? If so, where will I pull them over? Can't do it there, cuz it would be on a bridge; can't just do it here cuz it is a 4 lane divided hwy with no real shoulder and a speed limit of 50 mph. Hmm, could light them up about 300 yards from the next intersection, hoping they pull off there as there is a nice wide spot where we can both be safe and off the road. Once I have the vehicle stopped, shall I make a driver or passenger side approach? Wonder how many people are in the vehicle? Is this a known gang banger vehicle? Is it stolen? The list goes on and on.

As I have already said, poorly drafted, inaccurate, misleading no knock warrants submitted to inadequate DA's, signed off on by rubber stamp Judges and executed by cops determined to go home safe, regardless of the cost to someone else is the perfect storm. It starts with the LEADERSHIP of the agency, passes to the individual writing the warrant, goes to the DA and Judge and ends with the folks serving the warrant. Any and ALL of them have a responsibility to ensure the process STOPS when something with the warrant is wrong. Sadly, it appears that until EVERY person in the chain is held PERSONALLY responsible, preventable, avoidable mistakes will continue to be made.

In this case in question, it appears the only mistake made was by some trigger happy idiot who shot his buddy instead of what sounds like a legitimate case of an attack dog trained by drug dealers to be aggressive. The haul of items seized in the raid would seem to back that up so this is not a case of a bad warrant just poor execution on the part of the cops.

[carguym14]

Sounds like a bullshit story to me.

Probably poor trigger discipline and accidently shot the other officer when the dog barked/was seen/etc...

How do you shoot someone in the back trying to shoot a dog?

[wonderdog451]

Originally Posted by the gman

Let me amend that to no knock warrants SHOULD be a last resort. They are in my jurisdiction and we absolutely HAVE to justify them with multiple sources of info, surveillance logs and a serious amount of evidence as to why it is necessary.

I cannot speak for what happens in other jurisdictions nor have I ever or will ever defend out and out wrongdoing by other police officers or deputies based upon the fact we do the same job.

That would be like me asking you to defend the actions of idiotic gun owners wherever they happen to be in the USA; after all, you both own guns right??

In EVERY profession, mistakes are made. Doctors kill thousands of folks a year, electricians wire shit wrong and mechanics forget to fill engines with oil; the list is endless. Some mistakes by folks end up killing other citizens, sad as it may be, we live in an imperfect world.

Police officers have the responsibility to ensure their actions are legitimate and accurate. As I have said, no knock warrants are applicable in certain, narrowly defined cases. In some cases, the criminals rarely, if ever, leave a residence unguarded. Many of the criminals involved in the drug trade are extremely violent, usually well armed, often involved in multiple other criminal enterprises such as prostitution, extortion, human trafficking, robbery, murder and many other unsavory activities. Sometimes officers HAVE to enter places to get to them and secure evidence of their crimes. That is simply a fact of life.

Where I have severe issues with no knock warrants or warrants period is when the officers, DA and Judges involved in the issuance and execution thereof are lazy, incompetent, scared or overly arrogant. Even worse is a combination of the foregoing! This is when innocents are killed, officers are shot and the whole LE profession is dragged down into the gutter. There is no reason to issue a no knock warrant for a guy dealing a few ounces of mary jane. There is NO excuse for targeting the WRONG fuggin' house or premises. There is no excuse for raiding a house on the basis of a single, untested informant's information or without any credible corroboration of the information received from another informer.

The local DA should be catching this shit BEFORE it ever gets to a judge; if they fall down, the JUDGE should be kicking this shit back. Ultimately, the chain of command in the LE agency should be fostering an atmosphere of competency and leadership that prevents lousy cops from submitting poorly drafted and inaccurate warrant requests. This would go a VERY long way in preventing the kinds of raids that garner justifiable criticism and condemnation from all right thinking, freedom loving citizens.


L Haney; Risk mitigation could be my fuggin' job title!! I and every other cop does it on a daily basis. Driving down the road, I see a traffic violation so I instantly start thinking about where can I turn round to catch up, what is the speed of the vehicle I need to catch up to and by the time I get turned around, will I be able to catch up to them? If so, where will I pull them over? Can't do it there, cuz it would be on a bridge; can't just do it here cuz it is a 4 lane divided hwy with no real shoulder and a speed limit of 50 mph. Hmm, could light them up about 300 yards from the next intersection, hoping they pull off there as there is a nice wide spot where we can both be safe and off the road. Once I have the vehicle stopped, shall I make a driver or passenger side approach? Wonder how many people are in the vehicle? Is this a known gang banger vehicle? Is it stolen? The list goes on and on.

As I have already said, poorly drafted, inaccurate, misleading no knock warrants submitted to inadequate DA's, signed off on by rubber stamp Judges and executed by cops determined to go home safe, regardless of the cost to someone else is the perfect storm. It starts with the LEADERSHIP of the agency, passes to the individual writing the warrant, goes to the DA and Judge and ends with the folks serving the warrant. Any and ALL of them have a responsibility to ensure the process STOPS when something with the warrant is wrong. Sadly, it appears that until EVERY person in the chain is held PERSONALLY responsible, preventable, avoidable mistakes will continue to be made.

In this case in question, it appears the only mistake made was by some trigger happy idiot who shot his buddy instead of what sounds like a legitimate case of an attack dog trained by drug dealers to be aggressive. The haul of items seized in the raid would seem to back that up so this is not a case of a bad warrant just poor execution on the part of the cops.

Gman, I really wish that personal responsibility was the motto of those who sign these warrants and for those who execute them. But, in seems (in my opinion), that those in management seem to looking for quantity of arrests and seizures over the quality of the investigative work being done. I have seen too many television interviews of police "brass" looking proudly over seized drugs, property and money as if they did all the work themselves and not once once credit given where it was due. These are also the same people that when a search and or seizure goes wrong will quickly invent some imaginary tale to explain the situation regardless of the facts. And it would seem that thew biggest enablers of errant, irresponsible behavior are the police union/unions. They have been compared to the UAW simply because they make it exceptionally difficult in not impossible to terminate unfit employees. Now if more people in law enforcement knew that if they were partially or wholly responsible for the execution of a warrant that caused the death or injury of a uninvolved American citizen and would or could be suspended without pay or have their employment terminated we would see a quick change in attitudes. just like there was a change in attitude regarding "rubber stamping" foreclosure paperwork in the banking industry.

[308/223shooter]

Originally Posted by Thorack

Well,

At least they had the right house. I dont know what a pistol is that can fire armor piercing bullets is actually, probably an ill informed reporter. I hope said officer will recover and a review of procedures is conducted.

Thorack

FN 5.7MM will fire BODY-armor piercing projectiles, due to the high velocity of the small bullet.

[0302]

The police I knew said he caught shit from his fellow cops if he made too many arrests, crap from management if too much over time was required for court time related to arrests, other cops were more than happy to rat on another officer for brownie points, and the management was very willing to throw any officer under the bus to save money or controversy. It was every man for himself.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by the gman

L Haney; Risk mitigation could be my fuggin' job title!! I and every other cop does it on a daily basis.

Every cop huh?

[the gman]

Originally Posted by JasonB

Every cop huh?

Perhaps unwittingly or without conscious thought but yep, I'll stand by the statement that every cop considers a range of factors when attending a call, whether that is a traffic stop or an alarm call or a domestic violence call that reduces the potential risk of the call.

From where to stop a vehicle to what business the alarm is at (and the past history of alarm calls at that address) to waiting for a second officer on the domestic call. We have policies and procedures (as do 90% of agencies) that specify our response to certain calls and how we can minimize the potential for risk to both officers and the public.

Here's a definition of risk mitigation so we're on the same page:

The process by which an organization introduces specific measures to minimize or eliminate unacceptable risks associated with its operations. Risk mitigation measures can be directed towards reducing the severity of risk consequences, reducing the probability of the risk materializing, or reducing the organizations exposure to the risk.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by the gman

Perhaps unwittingly or without conscious thought but yep, I'll stand by the statement that every cop considers a range of factors when attending a call, whether that is a traffic stop or an alarm call or a domestic violence call that reduces the potential risk of the call.

From where to stop a vehicle to what business the alarm is at (and the past history of alarm calls at that address) to waiting for a second officer on the domestic call. We have policies and procedures (as do 90% of agencies) that specify our response to certain calls and how we can minimize the potential for risk to both officers and the public.

Here's a definition of risk mitigation so we're on the same page:

Well of course all police do that for themselves and each other, but you speofically tossed in the theoretical person you were about to pull over. As we have seen, plenty of LE do not take anyone but their own ass in to consideration.

[SWOHFAL]

Originally Posted by L Haney

There it is. The ONLY good reason. I don't care if they are innocent or not, sort that out later.

I know beans about being a cop, but I do know a thing or three about risk mitigation. Maybe I need to hang out a consultant shingle and start selling the 'how to', cause the current MO for these operations is killing cops and citizens.

Unfortunately, my methods involve no bravado or glory. Just a vastly lower body count. Probably wouldn't sell.

Trying to piss off the presbyopics on the files?

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by SWOHFAL

Trying to piss off the presbyopics on the files?

Jack up the screen zoom to 125%, and wear 2x specs. DAMHIK

[SWOHFAL]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Jack up the screen zoom to 125%, and wear 2x specs. DAMHIK

I'm not there... yet.

[0302]

I hit a dog with my car last week, sucker sprinted out onto sr491, no way i could avoid it, I was going about 65 mpg, that arb bumper really worked great, didn't even get a dint.
The semi steam behind me left a real mess, coyote special up!