GOTTA BE ME -- WHY SHOOTING LOW?

[malpaismike]

Hello the camp! Results in from the range on L1A1 and first Argy. Both shot low; I have been changing sight posts and will head back in the next day or so.
Here's what I have so far:
L1A1--I ran out of sight-in ammo after first 6-shot cluster mid-group while setting gas. With gas set, I loaded some rounds that previously wouldn't function; what you see is the result. My first "magdump", I fired as soon as I got the sight picture--6 oclock hold. Fairly good for a one-eyed fat man--oh wait, I have 2 eyes, they just work so-so.



Argy--went from 4dot to 2dot; still low. Whittled the serrations off a sight disc and dropped another--whatever. The range test will tell. Group is 5 gas setting shots; good group, I think.


Brings up a thought previously thought and forgot, or so: there seems to be no correlation between gas setting and accuracy, or point of impact. My technique, so to speak, was to get good function, then set sights. Some of my best groups were way off the zero. Argy poa was 6oclock on bull above group. Well, back to the range, with more ammo. Oh, yeah, I'm using POR for this exercise. It's doing just fine imho. mm

[ronbuell]

Mike, My opinion for what its worth....
Group looks pretty consistent to me. Bottom pics look great. Probably shooter fatigue setting in and barrel heating up.

I read 2 fixes on sight picture. 1. raise the rear site to the 200 yd mark, then raise the front sitght to match POI. 2. once the front sight is screwed all the way down, file the front site down to match POI. Only problem is once you have filed the front sight down, you would have to replace it if using the first method.

edit On second thought, I may have misintrepreted. Are you aiming low and it hitting high?

[PAcanis]

Dang! I wish I could cut holes like that at 100 yds with irons.
Nice shootin'!

[msnyder]

Try putting a flash hider on the Argy. It might change your POI.

[malpaismike]

Much obliged for the input. First and foremost, PA, shooting at 25 yd; if I can't group at 25, 100 is a no-go. Plus, I sighted buku scopes for Sportsmans Whse customers; zero at 25 will get you 2 high at 100, for most std loads.
RB, I'm holding 6oclock on top bull, impacting as you see it; ie, front sight too high. Nearly all my kits have had the tallest sight postl guess they figured it would work, or you'd buy more parts. Aperture is at lowest range in all cases. For the argy, I filed off the serrations so disc screwed in 3-4 thds farther. If it works, I'll whittle the correct-height sight. Trouble with filing the 'cones' is lousing up aiming point. I have a chuck made to spin the sight post in my drill press [vertical lathe, sometimes] so I can thin the point. I've also ordered some -size posts from Palm Beach parts.
MS, could be a point, but I want to get close before adding another variable. I have a SloCat Arg FH, so it will happen--especially since this is a virtually new rifle, my second metric build--and pretty uch a thing of beauty [only to be improved by wood furn.].
Going to the range; will advise progress. thxnregards mm

[malpaismike]

Well, so much for today's range work:
---The G1 started pogoing; first time; will clean, check it out and grind a bit on the post as it is a 2dot, can't find any 1- or no-dot; groups well, though.
---L1A1 is still left; broke the right-side screw, need to replace; aperture moves forward under recoil--need to tighten or replace [will a metric sight work?].
---Argy is....I dunno. Since it's all but new -- hell, is is new; only old part is LS -- I can't see drilling the gas port yet. Gotta look at it a while and thimk on it a while. No film; next time. mm

[Stnwll]

If the holes are above the point of aim, why are we calling them low? If I aim center and the holes are below POA I usually say 'low'. If they are above POA ......

[ronbuell]

Yeah, that's why I called for a clarification on aim point. I would call that HIGH and TO THE LEFT. Basically, mine does the same only RIGHT about 1/2 width of front sight, so I compensate. If you don't have any eye issues like astigmatism or cataracs like I have, adjust as you can.

[MK ULTRA]

Yeah I thought same thing.

Read post #5. He says he is holding 6:00 on TOP TARGET and hitting bottom target. All this is at 25 yards.

Anyway.........have a nice day.

[def90]

I have no idea what you are doing with your builds.. Broke a rear sight screw? Grind off the detents on the bottom of the metric sight? Seriously?

No, a metric rear sight will not work on an inch rifle. Properly fix the sight you have. I don't know if your posts are in half jest but it always sounds like the grinder and hammer come out before you even know or understand what the problem is. I also seem to remember a post of yours (maybe it was someone else) that made it sound like you were building these with the intention to sell off later?

You rifle is shooting way low, is the upper locking up to the lower correctly or is the foot on the upper holding it from going all the way down? This would cause your rifle to shoot low.

BTW what upper are you using on the Argy? If you haven't modified the rear foot you may have to..



Before you hack up anything else, slowly and methodically verify and go through all of the possible scenarios. It's not rocket science yet at the same time more finesse than a grinder and a BFHammer is needed.

Good luck.

[malpaismike]

I suppose I should ease off the hammer talk, def90; it is in jest. My Arg upper is Coonan Arg flavor. I named the post thus cuz, with 2 exceptions, all my builds -- both G1 builds, the Arg and the L1A1 -- are shooting way low. As Arg target shows, I'm holding 6oclock on ul bull and grouping in ll bull. Shots are while setting gas--another buggerbear I have to address--but are grouuping well, nonetheless.
L1A1 is ready for final sight-in. I used a palm-fitting handle and put too much on the screw ['course, I useta break headbolts with a 3/8 ratchet too].
While I'm not building for sale, I will have to move a couple to fund other projects. I have a Mark 4 Arg and same-# L1A1 on the shelf awaiting receivers. I'll get the gas and sights figured out sooner or later. I guess my biggest puzzle is the Arg--it's virtually a new rifle; only LS is a used part. mm

[Stnwll]

Aaaaahhhhh. I get it. I was looking at the top pic and assuming the POI was high! Missed the upper/lower bull comment.

[JackA]

Is that a plastic mag in the Argy ????? If so , how did it feed ???

Jack

[malpaismike]

Yes, Jack, that is a Thermold 'plastic' mag. I bought two of each while CTD had them in stock--and a coupon event. If there is a knock, it's that they insert with effort. That said, they all fed just fine. Extraction was not much different than some of my metal mags--push the button, nudge the mag. I don't think any of mine drop free.
With sight tightened and screw replaced, it must be range time. Pretty good range -- http://www.sierravistarange.org/ -- ~15 mi and 20 min from the ranch. Film at 11oaght2 mm

[def90]

Originally Posted by malpaismike

I suppose I should ease off the hammer talk, def90; it is in jest. My Arg upper is Coonan Arg flavor.

Upper receiver lug may still be hitting the lower.. I would put your upper onto another metric lower and see where you are at with your zero.

[malpaismike]

Well, bazzfazz!!! This has me talking to myself. Need to try MP for no-dot front sight post, I guess. G1s still shooting 4-6" low. L1A1 is getting dialled in, but now the gas is going south--will cycle a new rd but not set hammer.

I'm going back to basics and check all the gas systems--this won't help sights, but it'll keep me busy until the new sights get here. I measured one before the range; piston was in spec @ .430 and fell thru the gasblock/tube/nut like it's supposed to.

The tube measures .435 nom via plug gage; .436 will start, but is tight. I found piston spec in GP manual, but no info, beyond how to shorten, for the tube. .005 doesn't sound like too much, but at this temp and pressure....hmmm.

Guess the film is on hold for a tad until I have success to report. mm

NOTE: one of the things I do for 922 is gas piston. Could this be an issue? The Izzy I got from DSA worked fine. The one in the L1A1 came with the barrel from Gun Parts Guy. I think the G1s were from Falcon; the Arg is still virgin. I know the TAPCO on the L1A1 won't fall thru, but a metric piston--that's where it came from, but I think all but HBs are the same, right?--will, and the TAPCO will push thru without too much effort with a plastic punch [aside: I sold nearly all my AR stuff, but I still have that Midway plastic punch for pivot pins; works grreat on FAL pivots as well--for those of you following along at home]

[NHBandit]

Are you sure the hammer on the L1A1 isn't following the bolt home rather than not getting enough gas to fully send the BC rearward ? Who made the HTS ? It sounds like you're still having alot of issues and it's good to see you pulled the WTS ad from the marketplace. I hope you'll either disclose those issues to any potential buyer or fix them before you put it back up for sale. There is no shame in dumping a "problem child" as long as your honest about it and tell people what the issues are. All the best.

[malpaismike]

Gotcha, NHB. I would not knowingly unload a problem on anyone. I have buku kaboy deals [Open Range, SASS, High Road, etc] and Auction Arms to bolster my bona fides. I thought I had the L1A1 ready for a good target test--oops!

I forgot to address def90's suggestion: putting Arg upper on G1 lower sent impact 8'' farther down. I couldn't get Arg lower and G1 upper to align for pivot pin, so no dice.

I obviously have two issues: gas and sights. Because all the rifles are grouping adequately, I'm amazed there is no more connection between gas setting and accuracy than there is--10-shot groups inside 2'' with surplus, 25yd notwithstanding, is not chump change. I have to figure where the leasks are--and why they are ever-present. It's enough to dissuade me of my delusions of adequacy. A start would be someone giving me the correlation of gas piston OD and tube ID, as alluded to previously.

Sights will get figured out,even if I have to fabricate them. Hope MP comes thru. later mm

[NHBandit]

Mike are you absolutely sure the problem with the L1A1 hammer not resetting is gas related ? Have you tried working the action manually without rds in place to make sure the hammer reset issue is not HTS related ? Hold the trigger down & cycle the charging handle. Does the hammer follow the bolt or does it stay cocked ? Obviously it should stay cocked until you release the trigger & pull it again.

[msnyder]

Wouldn't filing the upper receiver lug cause it to shoot even lower?
I wonder if the barrel might be bent slightly.

[malpaismike]

I knew I was forgetting something earlier; all HST are as they came with the kits. I have US parts on order, but not here yet.

I suppose there could be a bent barrel in the mix, but wouldn't it have been manifested somewhere else in the build, as in timing? While one of my G1s, both Apex kits by the way sans barrels, wears a barrel from Entreprise, the other is from Coonan--a special deal they had last fall [buy a receiver, get a barrel installed and the whole schmear parked for $whatever]. The balance came sith SARCO kits. Bent or not, lthey group well--I just need shorter sight posts.

I'll give your suggestions a go in the am, NHB. thxnregards mm

[RPBII]

This may help.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...+receiver+pads

[msnyder]

Originally Posted by malpaismike

I suppose there could be a bent barrel in the mix, but wouldn't it have been manifested somewhere else in the build, as in timing?

A bent barrel just forward of the gas block could throw your poi WAY off and it would not affect timing.

[malpaismike]

Boy howdy, do I have some work to do. All suggestions, of course, are gratefully accepted. However, the previous posts cited above, and bent-barrel proposal, are causing buku head scratching:
---4 builds; 2 G1, Arg and L1A1;
---2 Coonan, 1 DSA and 1 Entreprise receivers;
---rifles seem to close like a bank vault==>highly subjective, will verify;
---I liberally lubed during assembly, except gas systems (I'm used to M1 and AR);
---the most common factor is MOI; if I did something wrong, I was, at least, consistent;
---appropos of not much, each build had the highest sight post in the kit, L1A1 excepted.

We built the pyramids and Lee Press-On Nails, I can get these puppies working. I am ordering NOS gas tube, piston and spring, to start, as another check; not much golddust and will be eventually used.
I am going to map each rifle: measure piston OD, tube ID, gas block OD and gas plug ID; review vent dia.
I am going to degrease and dry-lube recoil springs and plunger; I didn't grease them, but may have been heavy on the CLP--another check.
I will check fit as noted in above posts and in cited posts.
Since we're going to Tucson next week, I may try a better grade of Scotch; can;t hurt.
Will advise. thxnregards mm

[NHBandit]

Very interested to see what you find when you cycle the L1A1 by hand.My thinking is that if the bolt/carrier is moving rearward enough to eject the spent case and pick up the next round there is no way it's not moving far enough to reset the hammer. I am 99% convinced you have a HTS issue going on, NOT gas related. With that said I have been wrong before.. Try it quick: unloaded rifle, selector on semi, hold trigger & cycle the action using the CH. Hammer should reset until you release the trigger & pull it again. If it does not you have something amiss with the HTS.

[malpaismike]

Well, that didn't take long. First thing I noticed was how neat the operating parts were. Second was, is a loose top cover a bad thing? This one slides right off; on most I use a shop rag to keep from getting dinged in the ej port--is this FAL version of M1 thumb? Of course, I digress: function was Aok. No drag marks in top cover; hammer stays back on safety sear notch [is that correct?]. As this was my first build, I will check out return spring assy first, then gas sys--again, measuring this time. mm

[NHBandit]

Very odd that it's getting enough gas to cycle, eject the spent case & pick up the next rd. but not reset the hammer. Have you tried closing the gas a couple more clicks ?

[malpaismike]

At the moment, it's one click from closed. Since they're all running together, sorta, don't remember if I pink-tefloned the L1A1--I know I did the 2 G1s.
will check after lonches. mm

[MK ULTRA]

All my kits have the soldered short gas tubes.

Man I NEVER had all the problems you are having.

Good luck. You will need it.

[Grinder]

Start with ONE rifle
Check everything from scratch and lube as required
Start your testing over
Too much going on

[malpaismike]

Grinder, where were ya when I started this war? I hate it when someone tries to use reason! Yup, that's what I'm doing, and taking measurements, right after the second shot of joe takes hold. Keep'em coming, pards; I can use all the help I can get.

OOOOOOOOO!!! Is red Loktite really a viable gas fix? mm

[def90]

Originally Posted by malpaismike

OOOOOOOOO!!! Is red Loktite really a viable gas fix? mm

[malpaismike]

Soooo, that's an indefinite prolly not, eh def90? mm