Gunsmithing school selection help

[Freedom supply]

I have decided to go to gunsmithing school. The question is where? I have contacted Penn Foster online program and wanted to hear any thoughts on them as well.
Let me share some info about me. I'm over 40, two kids, one almost in college. I have an FFL already with a side gun business. There are next to no gunsmiths in my market. The one guy I know of is booked for months and I have customers who ask me all the time if I can work on guns.
I have a day job that is possibly being phased out in about a year. And so now is the time for me to get my education. I realize that the best method would involve about a decade of apprentiship but I am afraid that distance to a willing smith, 3 or 4 years of college and the time away from my family are going to prohibit that route.
Gentleman, what are your thoughts?

[whirlibird]

Both of the Colorado schools are good.

The Colorado School of Trades is where I went decades back, but the Trinidad State Junior College is where I'd go today.

http://nra.trinidadstate.edu/
http://trinidadstate.edu/

They have 'summer school' and decent tuition.

[def90]

Somehow reading about your experience and how long you have been in the business I think all you may really need is some evening classes at a machine shop. Other than lathe or mill operations you may have to do in extreme cases I would see most gunsmithing nowadays as simply understanding how a specific model of firearm operates and exchanging parts.

The Trinidad school has short summer classes in specific areas that may give you your best return on investment.

[Freedom supply]

I appreciate the info. I will definitely check these schools as well.

[gunplumber]

Howabout don't waste your time and money with any of them!

Unless you are retarded and need to be led around by the nose, there is nothing you can't learn with an internet connection and a few overdue fees at the public library.

Take those tens of thousands of dollars and buy tools and surplus cheap guns for practice (called lab fees).

You will want to buy some reference work. Everything by Khunhausen. All my gunsmithing DVDs, and a few other good specialty works.

Take some welding, and machining classes at your local junior college.

I've been a professional gunsmith for 20+ years and trained many others.

School is a product. The piece of paper has no real value. The school has to convince you of the spiritual value to get you to spend tens of thousands of dollars and years of your life to obtain it.

I have a BA, an MA, a medical certification, teaching certification, and a bunch of other pieces of paper gathering dust on the wall. I could outfit a complete machine shop for what I paid for those papers.

[Freedom supply]

I certainly don't have a problem with mental capacity but obviously thought seeking advice from experienced men such as yourself would benefit. I appreciate the fact that you believe it can be accomplished on one's own and will look into the materials you mentioned. Thank you.

[gunplumber]

It's 10% knowledge (which in the day of the internet is free) and 90% experience. And you can't pay for the experience. You can learn a technique in 10 minutes. Might take 10 days for competence and 10 years to master it.

Like the block wall I recently built. I read how to do it. I read how to use a level and a plumb and lay out my lines. I read the directions on the cement mixer. And now the last hundred blocks look a little bit more straight and level than the first hundred. It was doing it 500 times that built skill. Not paying someone to teach me to do it.

[Freedom supply]

Thank you very much. Solid, sensible advice. I will be checking the materials you reference as well.

[the gman]

Listen to what Mark (Gunplumber) sez. He knows whereof he speaks but if you had the opportunity to take a couple of classes with some skilled folks (like in the NRA summer gunsmithing program) it would be well worth it in my book.

My Dad was a master mason and I grew up mixing mortar, concrete and laying bricks and blocks. I learned many tips and tricks over the years I worked with my Dad but he was faster than me due to his years of experience. After he passed and I got on the tools on my own, I eventually got as fast as my Dad once was. 1000 bricks a day with 2 laborers feeding me bricks and mortar was an average day.

Just like Mark says, spend money on buying some project guns and working on them. Get comfortable with your tools and techniques. Take some local college classes on machine work and maybe buy some older, maybe previously loved machines to use. NOTHING beats knowing a little bit about HOW to do something and then practicing that a LOT.

Don't ever be afraid to turn work down if you don't feel 100% comfortable doing it or working for the person who is attempting to solicit your services. Some call Mark arrogant and he is but he has the luxury of deciding for whom to work for or not. Only turn out work you would be proud to show off. I would advise getting some liability insurance.

Many of the refinishing products out there today are fairly simply applied if you understand the basics of preparation work, apply it properly and bake it for the required time at the right temp. You'll need a decent workspace and a very good 220V supply of power if you choose to get into this full time. You might not get rich but you can make a decent living.

Don't neglect taking some classes on book keeping and business administration at the local college or business extension. Plenty of help out there for folks who wanna learn how to keep their books in order and their business afloat. More businesses fail as a result of failing to follow a biz plan (or not having one) and therefore not being aware of where they are financially than most any other reason. You may hear that businesses fail through being under capitalized but this is simply a by product of a poor or non existent business plan. Plan your work then work your plan. Good luck.

[gunplumber]

That's a really good point you made and something I think is neglected so much in the "schools".

It doesn't matter how good you are at something if you can't get people to buy it, and keep your lights on.

You have a national potential customer base, and you don't access them with an ad in your local paper. You need a professional website, and some skill with a camera to fill it. People aren't buying your work, they're buying the picture of your work. I spent a lot of money on a good SLR to make up for my lack of skill in using it. And I spent a week learning HTML. It really isn't that hard. What is hard is trying to get someone else to do it for you, and keep it updated. Quicker to learn it yourself.

And the Summer NRA programs are pretty good. One of my mentors, Phil Arrington, teaches the NM Garand/M14 and M16 classes. I'm not saying that taking a class is bad. Far from it. I'm saying getting involved in a degree program, where the degree is a guarantee of nothing and really a representation of nothing, is a waste of time and money. Much better to target your investment at your specific areas of interest.

A small business accounting and management class at your local GC may be useful as well. I took 1st year accounting in college before I changed my major and it was useful - it was just way more than I needed to run a small business. The JCs have classes targeted for small business owners. You've probably picked up quite a bit already in life skills, that a youngster just starting out hasn't.

[Freedom supply]

This has all been most excellent advice. I will begin developing a plan and business model. To give me specific goals to aim for. Since I am new to the "files" I may start by getting an argy kit and a few needed tools to build my first FAL. I hear that the video by mr gunplumber is the best source to guide a project like that. If that is the route I take, I will post pics of the build as it happens. Thanks again to all for you thoughts and suggestions.

[def90]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

A small business accounting and management class at your local GC may be useful as well. I took 1st year accounting in college before I changed my major and it was useful - it was just way more than I needed to run a small business. The JCs have classes targeted for small business owners. You've probably picked up quite a bit already in life skills, that a youngster just starting out hasn't.

+1.. Read the book the "E-Myth". Basically the E-Myth is the Entrepreneurial Myth. Many people starts businesses because they think, Hey I can do that. they often approach it as a job rather than a business and ultimately fail. Just remember there are thousands of other guys out there that are "gunsmiths". Some will charge $20/hr, some $100/hr. Some will stay in business, some wont. Some run it as a business, some as a hobby or a job. Ultimately a strong business plan with all of your "true" costs and goals laid out will make the difference in the end. Who knows, you may look at the numbers in your business plan and think to yourself how the hell can anyone survive in this industry.

Anyway, good luck! Stick to your pricing and don't let the hack around the corner undercut you. In the end your work and reputation will stick in your customers heads longer than the lowest price will.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by def90

Stick to your pricing and don't let the hack around the corner undercut you.

I think you mean "stick to your pricing because the hack around the corner will always undercut you . .. but you aren't the hack around the corner"

[tdb59]

Michael Gerber's " E- Myth " is excellent. I first read it about 20 years ago, and said to myself, " Shit ! THAT is what I have been doing ! ", and altered my methods immediately.

The majority of my " education " is just what Mark describes- buy the right tools, work on your own stuff if you must, before attempting the unknown on a customer's piece, and seek out help from professionals.

Ron Walton showed me methods of work that I could not have gotten from schools.

A friend that attended one of the mentioned schools got some practical knowledge, but overall is no longer as impressed with his experience.

The best business advice I EVER received, was from my father.
" Terry, sometimes you can make money by turning down work"

Good luck to you !

[def90]

Originally Posted by tdb59

Michael Gerber's " E- Myth " is excellent. I first read it about 20 years ago, and said to myself, " Shit ! THAT is what I have been doing ! ", and altered my methods immediately.

Same thing myself.. My turn around has been slower because i am tied to the building industry but I am still alive and doing well now after revamping my whole situation while many others in the area have simply disappeared.

Mark, thanks for the "correction".

[idsubgun]

Go to trade school and become a machinist. I did 30 years ago and have made a 1000 times the money as a machinist then I ever did doing gunsmithing. And machinist jobs are WAY easier to find!

Then, use those skills to gunsmith on the side.


For every guy out there that has machining skills, and who actually knows the trade, there's a million out there that don't know shit about about machining, and sadly most gunsmiths fall under the latter category.

Also, you probably won't be able to send that kid thru college on gunsmithing wages. Have you checked into how many different, specialized tools you'll need for gunsmithing? When I first started 'smithing, I used gunsmith work to pay for the tools to do that job. If I had to buy those tools, pay my mortgage, buy food, send my kid to school, make car payments, etc., etc., etc., I could have never have done it all on gunsmithing wages. That's where my career as a machinist came in. That paid the bills while I bought gunsmithing tools with gunsmithing jobs.
Remember, most gunsmithing tools take several jobs to actually pay for that tool. You may buy a tool for $200 but current gunsmithing fees for the job that tool is used on may be $40. And if you are a "general" gunsmith and don't specialize, you'll be adding tools constantly! Some you can make, some you can't. Making those tools is where machining skills come into play.

[ronbuell]

Freedom, your OP "I have an FFL already with a side gun business. There are next to no gunsmiths in my market. The one guy I know of is booked for months and I have customers who ask me all the time if I can work on guns."

You are already qualified on the business end from life experience, assuming you are turning a profit now. I believe you have a natural side line to your original business, and it sounds like the market is there. Like others said above, pick and choose the jobs you take on carefully. Your reputation is on the line, and insurance mentioned is also a good idea to cover liability. Maybe Mark can come back in with a PM to you on that subject.

What you have to evaluate is how much time it will take, wheather you need to hire someone to cover you original position while you do the smithing, and what other things you are missing.

I say "Go For It", commit to 100% quality and customer satisfaction, start small and don't take on too much since you can get overwhelmed quickly. You want to protect your reputation. A man is only as good as his word! Stay positive. (Cheerleading now since I've owned a business, and its hard work.)

[Freedom supply]

Thanks. I have bought a few quality tools and begun some basic work. Great success so far. I am struggling with one gun right now that seems to elude me as to what is wrong with it. I posted on the gunsmith part of this site and have gotten some excellent advice. Working on it now and will report back my findings.