Deputies shoot and kill man after knocking on wrong door

[carguym14]

Originally Posted by Buster H

I would like to know what would happen if the situation were reversed?

Assume he survived and they both did not. Would he be charged?

It sounds like by their own admission they did not identify themselves.

Were they in uniform?

With documented instances of "bad guys" yelling "police" and whatnot, lately, I guess one of my questions would be: what constitutes a LEO legitimately identifying themself?

I too would like to hear from Gman; his cogent and informed opininon is always welcome.

Regards,

Buster

If he shot and killed them,I would imagine he would face life or the death penalty.

Nice that Indiana made it so if the cops raid the wrong house and get shot up,the shooter can't be held responsible-they go to the wrong house,they are just stupid thugs.

[Rick]

Yep. What police force sends two cops out to arrest a murder suspect in the middle of the night? Ain't gonna happen. They're going to surround the house, cover the exits, block off the street, maybe SWAT.........

I'd like to point out that once again the police are caught in a lie. Not that they'll have any problems from it. Lying is so much a part of the way cops conduct themselves it's hardly worth mentioning. It's how things are done, it's their culture, it is SOP. But boy oh boy you have a citizen contradict himself during hours of questioning and you just see what happens.

Bottom line, the police know exactly how to construct the report to extricate themselves from any criminal wrong doing here. There might be some civil suits from the family but that's the city's problem.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yep. What police force sends two cops out to arrest a murder suspect in the middle of the night? Ain't gonna happen. They're going to surround the house, cover the exits, block off the street, maybe SWAT.........

I'd like to point out that once again the police are caught in a lie. Not that they'll have any problems from it. Lying is so much a part of the way cops conduct themselves it's hardly worth mentioning. It's how things are done, it's their culture, it is SOP. But boy oh boy you have a citizen contradict himself during hours of questioning and you just see what happens.

Bottom line, the police know exactly how to construct the report to extricate themselves from any criminal wrong doing here. There might be some civil suits from the family but that's the city's problem.

Its more than likely the cops weren't "sent out to arrest a murder suspect." They were likely beat cops, making inquiries as to where the dude might possibly be hiding out. I knock on your door, you, law abiding citizen answer. I say "police dept, don't wanna alarm you but do you know anything about the motorcycle parked across the street there? You don't? OK, well, we're looking for the guy that rode it in, he has a description of X,Y and Z and wondered if you had seen anyone in the neighborhood prior to this that might give us an idea where he might be? Listen, I understand if you don't want to appear a rat or put yourself in danger but we're looking for a real bad guy here and I would hope you could help us take this guy to jail where he belongs. Would you mind if we could take a quick look around to make sure he isn't here and holding your family members hostage so you can get rid of us? That's fine with you? Hey we really appreciate your help."

A quick look around the apartment and then we're on to the next one. Sure, if you have 100% solid info the dude is in a specific (or even a general apartment #) apartment then you surround it and go to SWAT to get him. News flash: 9 times out of 10, the info you receive is out of date by the time you get it if you rely on radio or even eye witnesses. "I saw Joe do this and called you guys but by the time you got here, he was gone/loving it up with the gal he just beat/left 15 minutes ago and I didn't get in trouble for appearing like a rat."

We catch most bad guys by luck or because they are DUMB, not cuz we're smarter. Welcome to my world.

[4duece]

Another case of a cop panics and shoots the wrong guy. The others lie and ALL go free. What happens when a cop gets shot by mistake? Do all go free because after all it was a mistake, you know an error in judgement. I think not, I have no sympathy for them. They need to realize they are just humans like us with no special privelages.

[bakerjw]

Originally Posted by the gman

Would you mind if we could take a quick look around to make sure he isn't here and holding your family members hostage so you can get rid of us?

My response. "Yes, I mind. Come back at a decent hour with a warrant and you can look around."

[the gman]

Originally Posted by bakerjw

My response. "Yes, I mind. Come back at a decent hour with a warrant and you can look around."

And that is your right which I would respect. Period.

I try to be polite and respectful and ask the same of the citizens I encounter. I cannot for the life of me understand why some people have to get a huge attitude when I don't have one? I guess some folks just don't like cops? Certainly not going to affect the way I continue to do my job, YMMV.

[308bolt]

Last Friday I had an hour long conversation with one of the candidates running for DA in my county.
I asked him his take on SWAT teams serving warrants and often knocking with their boots.
He told me SWAT teams have a place in law enforcement today and in his opinion it's should be very narrowly defined. It should be restricted to tasks that can't be accomplished by other law enforcement officers.
He believes that if SWAT teams are used in the manner described in this thread that Constitution is trashed.
Interesting fella.

[SWOHFAL]

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Last Friday I had an hour long conversation with one of the candidates running for DA in my county.
I asked him his take on SWAT teams serving warrants and often knocking with their boots.
He told me SWAT teams have a place in law enforcement today and in his opinion it's should be very narrowly defined. It should be restricted to tasks that can't be accomplished by other law enforcement officers.
He believes that if SWAT teams are used in the manner described in this thread that Constitution is trashed.
Interesting fella.

He probably won't win with that attitude.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Last Friday I had an hour long conversation with one of the candidates running for DA in my county.
I asked him his take on SWAT teams serving warrants and often knocking with their boots.
He told me SWAT teams have a place in law enforcement today and in his opinion it's should be very narrowly defined. It should be restricted to tasks that can't be accomplished by other law enforcement officers.
He believes that if SWAT teams are used in the manner described in this thread that Constitution is trashed.
Interesting fella.

You might be surprised to know that many officers feel the same way. This is usually the way our and surrounding agencies employ their teams. A situation that is super high risk such as serving a search and/or arrest warrant on a very dangerous individual or violent gang is grounds for calling the SWAT team. Attempting to take a subject with an arrest warrant for felony level battery isn't.

Dealing with a barricaded individual with hostages calls for the SWAT team, not so much for the additional firepower but more for the specialized negotiators and tools they have (like throw phones and mini cameras) plus the additional training they receive in hostage rescue should they need to enter the structure for that purpose.

SWAT is the surgeon; patrol is the GP or ER docs who are in the trenches all the time. Don't forget that 95% of the police departments and sheriff offices in the nation do not have full time SWAT so many patrol officers are SWAT as well as on patrol. Big city departments present different problems and hence have full time SWAT teams. When you have guys on a team full time, the tendency is to try to find them something to do. Idle hands are the devil's playthings and all that......

[308bolt]

Originally Posted by SWOHFAL

He probably won't win with that attitude.

Actually I believe he will win.
He's being endorsed by every conservative of note in the county.
My county is one of the two dyed-in-the-wool conservative counties in the state.
It was my Senator who told him he should stop by our place and meet me and my wife. My Senator is as conservative as I am and the last time he was re-elected it was with 78% of the vote.

[SWOHFAL]

Originally Posted by 308bolt

Actually I believe he will win.
He's being endorsed by every conservative of note in the county.
My county is one of the two dyed-in-the-wool conservative counties in the state.
It was my Senator who told him he should stop by our place and meet me and my wife. My Senator is as conservative as I am and the last time he was re-elected it was with 78% of the vote.

That's refreshing, but usually "conservatives" are just pro-government thugs masquerading as protectors of individual freedom.

[308bolt]

Originally Posted by SWOHFAL

That's refreshing, but usually "conservatives" are just pro-government thugs masquerading as protectors of individual freedom.

In Wisconsin we've started a whole new program.
We'll see where it leads.

[ronpaulFAL]

Applaud you guys for that. Good work.

[308bolt]

Reince Priebus had a lot to do with it.
I was hoping he'd do for the national party what he did for our state party.
So far no joy.
Also:
Even though I view the national Tea party as a disappointment, on local levels here in Wisconsin they are kicking RINO butt on a regular basis.

[bakerjw]

Don't get me wrong. I am very supportive of my local LEOs and am very polite and respectful. I just don't like the idea of giving someone a blank check to search my premises for any reason.

Originally Posted by the gman

And that is your right which I would respect. Period.

I try to be polite and respectful and ask the same of the citizens I encounter. I cannot for the life of me understand why some people have to get a huge attitude when I don't have one? I guess some folks just don't like cops? Certainly not going to affect the way I continue to do my job, YMMV.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by bakerjw

Don't get me wrong. I am very supportive of my local LEOs and am very polite and respectful. I just don't like the idea of giving someone a blank check to search my premises for any reason.

Perhaps "search" is the wrong word. I would ask you to show me around the house just so we knew the bad guy wasn't holding your family hostage is all. I have no intention of turning over beds, rummaging in drawers or doing anything other than making sure you and yours are safe. If you still choose not to allow me to help you or assist you, again, that's your absolute right and I would completely respect your opinion and honor your request to be left the hell alone. Clarified?

[crcksht]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

If a cop or deputy is so damned frightened for his own safety that he won't identify himself very loudly,that person is in the wrong damned profession. Grow a pair or quit.And stop shooting citizens.

Amen!

This is murder under the color of law. Just one man's opinion, but I'm sticking with it.

[Deltaten]

Yeah; but George, yanno, we know yer a dyed in the wool Constitutionalist and well versed in these issues. Were it only a few more of your Fellows so minded

Bolt...Are you sure you spelled "program" right?? Din;t yameen "pogrom"

[Super B]

My heart goes out to those deputies, as well as the family of the guy they killed.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by Super B

My heart goes out to those deputies, as well as the family of the guy they killed.

What happend to the deputies exactly?

[ronpaulFAL]

Originally Posted by Super B

My heart goes out to those deputies, as well as the family of the guy they killed.

I'm sure they feel bad.

However, if one of us had done something similar to that, the prosecutor wouldn't (and shouldn't) be satisfied that we are saddened by it. We would be charged. These cops should also be charged; a jury can decide whether they were guilty.

[wonderdog451]

Originally Posted by Super B

My heart goes out to those deputies, as well as the family of the guy they killed.

Why would anyone feel bad about people whose job performance was so pathetic, that it resulted in the death of an innocent person, then lied about the circumstances that led to the person's death? Does anyone feel sorry for a drug dealer whose " profession" lead to the death of an uninvolved person or feel any sympathy for anyone regardless of their profession, whose incompetence causes the death of another?

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

Why would anyone feel bad about people whose job performance was so pathetic, that it resulted in the death of an innocent person, then lied about the circumstances that led to the person's death? Does anyone feel sorry for a drug dealer whose " profession" lead to the death of an uninvolved person or feel any sympathy for anyone regardless of their profession, whose incompetence causes the death of another?

Hold on mate, do you have any evidence to back up your assertions that the deputies have "lied" about what happened? Or is this based on your own in depth, cutting edge investigation into the circumstances? I'm gonna guess that seeing how you live in MI and this happened in FL, you're flying by the seat of your pants and ascribing actions to the deputies that you have no idea if they are true or not; who's lying now??

I already said my piece but if you have some unknown evidence to back up your allegations, let's hear it. Otherwise, I might have thought you of all people would be hesitant to jump on the bandwagon of guilty until proven innocent??? If it's just a case of "they're the cops, ergo they're lying" by all means, lay that out there. I just want to be clear on your motivation for your post is all.

BTW, I can empathize with a person who causes the death of another if they are remorseful and even if the death was caused by incompetence. I happen to have a friend who killed another friend of mine by dropping a live arty round short of the impact area when training a number of years ago. There were some complicating factors but the bottom line was my friend was in charge and it was his fault. Barry was inconsolable for weeks and he never even knew my mate as he was from another unit I had been attached to a couple years before. What should I have done? Cut Barry off and treated him like shit? Or try to help a good guy who screwed up one time out of the hundreds of similar times get through his pain??

Would you feel sorry or bad for the parent or grandparent who negligently backs over their child/grandchild?? Same thing right? Or not?

I have empathy for most of the folks I deal with apart from a select number of evil people like child molesters and the like. To give up my ability to empathize would remove a part of my humanity I think is essential to being a human. YMMV.

[wonderdog451]

Regardless of how either one of us personally feels about the situation, the fact is that a person who was totally uninvolved in the actions that lead to the shooting was shot and killed by law enforcement and ( if the reported facts are correct), these same officers tried to lie about the incident to minimize the extent of their involvement. The lie alone discredits any and all credibility they may have had, in my opinion and in any courtroom they may find themselves in.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

Regardless of how either one of us personally feels about the situation, the fact is that a person who was totally uninvolved in the actions that lead to the shooting was shot and killed by law enforcement and ( if the reported facts are correct), these same officers tried to lie about the incident to minimize the extent of their involvement. The lie alone discredits any and all credibility they may have had, in my opinion and in any courtroom they may find themselves in.

Where's the LIE??? Quote please. Just because you find their explaination difficult to understand doesn't make it a lie.

Does it make any sense that a guy I arrested for DWI gets out of jail, has another argument with his wife and then blows his brains out?? Nope, not a lick of sense to me, you and possibly 95% of the US population. Does not alter the FACTS of what happened.

Doesn't make any sense to me that a guy continues to walk towards me in a road rage incident when I have a firearm in my hand and tell him to stay away but he did it. (pre-LEO days)

Lots of things people do don't make any sense but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Your guy in Detroit with the supposed AD from an IWB holstered M&P fails the sniff test based on physical impossibility NOT on "it doesn't make sense" test.

Cough up the quote where the deputies are shown to be lying and I will unreservedly apologize. If this is just a case of you throwing out the BS flag based upon your opinion, well, you just illustrated your character for all to see.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by CTW

I just saw this today.
http://m.wdbo.com/news/news/local/ca...ng-door/nPyJT/

The article mentioning the lying.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by JasonB

The article mentioning the lying.

Where? This?

The recordings raise questions about whether deputies were really looking for an attempted murder suspect the night Scott was killed, as they have claimed.

Or this?

WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer said it appeared authorities inflated the charges to justify what happened.

"From the minute this case was reported, it's been a constant attempt to shift the blame, shift the focus away from the sheriff's office," said Sheaffer.

Or what? Cuz unless someone is categorically stating the deputies involved in the shooting lied, I'm just not seeing it. I DO see allusions, allegations and journalistic license but PROOF of the deputies who were at the door and who pulled the trigger flat out LYING? All we have is an arrogant LT. running his suck about what he has been told happened. Not a WORD from the actual deputies involved in the whole thing. Nope, not there, try harder.

[carguym14]

Originally Posted by JasonB

What happend to the deputies exactly?

They probably feel bad.Maybe even really bad.Or maybe not.Any lawsuit payout will come from the taxpayers,and they aren't being charged,so mark it down as an "oops".

I'm sure them feeling bad will help the murdered mans family and friends feel better.

An innocent man was killed for no reason,and it doesn't matter.

[wonderdog451]

I do not mean to be rude, but you can not tell me that your opinion is not a little biased. What I see here is another name added to the list of American citizens who have been killed by members of law enforcement, and if anyone dares question or ask about what happened, the story constantly changes and the officers involved ask for a lawyer and/or their union representative. The question remains, were this men competent enough to successfully undertake the task to which they were either assigned to perform or took it upon themselves to complete? If either answer is "No" then someone needs to be charged with a crime. Look at it this way, with the increasing number of incidents being reported of Police corruption and abuse and with many of you fellow Americans already looking at them with fear, disgust, trepidation and suspicion. How much longer before a overwhelming number of people look at most interactions with Police as a deadly encounter( I know that is a bit of a stretch). If you do not believe me, just look at some of your local news reports where the Police are asking for the help of the citizenry in solving a crime. Someone a few years ago asked"why more people do not get involved in these efforts to solve crimes?" The most common answer was a total lack of faith in law enforcement and the legal system. But with incidents like these and similar ones in almost every major city in the United States, can you really blame them?

[Powderfinger]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

I do not mean to be rude, but you can not tell me that your opinion is not a little biased. What I see here is another name added to the list of American citizens who have been killed by members of law enforcement, and if anyone dares question or ask about what happened, the story constantly changes and the officers involved ask for a lawyer and/or their union representative. The question remains, were this men competent enough to successfully undertake the task to which they were either assigned to perform or took it upon themselves to complete? If either answer is "No" then someone needs to be charged with a crime. Look at it this way, with the increasing number of incidents being reported of Police corruption and abuse and with many of you fellow Americans already looking at them with fear, disgust, trepidation and suspicion. How much longer before a overwhelming number of people look at most interactions with Police as a deadly encounter( I know that is a bit of a stretch). If you do not believe me, just look at some of your local news reports where the Police are asking for the help of the citizenry in solving a crime. Someone a few years ago asked"why more people do not get involved in these efforts to solve crimes?" The most common answer was a total lack of faith in law enforcement and the legal system. But with incidents like these and similar ones in almost every major city in the United States, can you really blame them?

Well stated.
The ability to take your life with impunity is jealously guarded by the PTB.
IMHO.

[KoKodog]

I believe that most of us are acknowledging, without knowing it
(well, consciously anyhow) is a certain societal behavior .....

and to help make my point I refer you to a excerpt from the
Boondock Saints movie script that illustrates that of which I speak
(found here >> http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/b...ts-script.html )

MONSIGNOR
(loud, authoritative)
...and I am reminded of this holy
day of the sad story of Kitty
Geneviese. This poor soul cried out
time and time again for help but no
person answered her calls. Though
many saw, not one so much as called.
Her assailant wiped the bloody knife
off on her lifeless little body.
They watched as he simply walked
away. Nobody wanted to get involved.
Nobody wanted to take a stand... We
must fear evil men and deal with
them accordingly but what we must
truly guard against, what we must
fear most
(beat)
Is the indifference of good men.

The MacManuses turn and walk out the door.

EXT. CHURCH STEPS SUNNY MORNING

The boys put on their dark glasses and pause at the top of
the steps to light up their cigarettes. They both roll their
cigarette butts along their tongues and screw them into their
lips. In this unique way they light up, seemingly oblivious
to their synchronicity and mimic.

CONNOR
(Irish accent)
I do believe the Monsignor finally
got a point.

MURPHY
(Irish accent)
Aye.

the indifference of good men, ................
this is a double edged sword that cuts all of us from time to time
and whether law enforcement or regular citizen,
we cannot turn a blind eye to indifference, no one is above the law

a good clean (un-tainted) investigation of the officers is necessary
if they are proven innocent fine, if they are proven guilty of murder,
let them stand alone for judgement of their crime,
not the entire police force ..... unless the rest of the force is guilty of a cover up

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by the gman

Where? This?



Or this?



Or what? Cuz unless someone is categorically stating the deputies involved in the shooting lied, I'm just not seeing it. I DO see allusions, allegations and journalistic license but PROOF of the deputies who were at the door and who pulled the trigger flat out LYING? All we have is an arrogant LT. running his suck about what he has been told happened. Not a WORD from the actual deputies involved in the whole thing. Nope, not there, try harder.

So you consider changing the nature of the offense committed by the persons the deputies were looking for to something more serious in an apparent attempt to make the end result look better to be the actions of honest people?

I didn't see anything about the deputies saying it, nor do I see anything about the deputies disputing that twist and turn on their behalf either. Just a part of clan behavior.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

I do not mean to be rude, but you can not tell me that your opinion is not a little biased. What I see here is another name added to the list of American citizens who have been killed by members of law enforcement, and if anyone dares question or ask about what happened, the story constantly changes and the officers involved ask for a lawyer and/or their union representative. The question remains, were this men competent enough to successfully undertake the task to which they were either assigned to perform or took it upon themselves to complete? If either answer is "No" then someone needs to be charged with a crime. Look at it this way, with the increasing number of incidents being reported of Police corruption and abuse and with many of you fellow Americans already looking at them with fear, disgust, trepidation and suspicion. How much longer before a overwhelming number of people look at most interactions with Police as a deadly encounter( I know that is a bit of a stretch). If you do not believe me, just look at some of your local news reports where the Police are asking for the help of the citizenry in solving a crime. Someone a few years ago asked"why more people do not get involved in these efforts to solve crimes?" The most common answer was a total lack of faith in law enforcement and the legal system. But with incidents like these and similar ones in almost every major city in the United States, can you really blame them?

I find it amusing you accuse me of bias without obviously paying a whit of attention to my initial posts on this subject. I suggest you go back and re-read them to understand that I have no bias when it comes to wrong doing on the part of ANYONE, cop or citizen. My job is to gather FACTS and from the facts, put that with the physical evidence, eyewitness accounts and any other evidence I can find in order to determine what occurred and who, if anyone is to blame so I may recommend charges to be brought or warrants sought.

That is MY job. I do not pass sentence but I must be able to back up my criminal complaint with a statement of probable cause wherein I lay out the evidence I have gathered, including that which tends to support the charges brought or warrant sought and also any exculpatory evidence. I have no right to determine what evidence is or isn't valid or exculpatory in nature so all is presented. The DA's office and a Judge (and eventually) a jury may rule upon whether my probable cause statement and criminal complaint have merit or not. I have yet to have a warrant or case tossed for lack of investigation, incompleteness of facts or matters of doubt in the evidence presented. In other words, I do my job and to the absolute best of my ability, regardless of whom or what I am investigating.

If there is a possibility of bias, it would be in that doing a similar job to the deputies in this case, I understand more fully the decisions we are faced with every day. We do not know if today is the day the guy on the traffic stop who appears to be compliant is going to push us and have his 16 year old son get out of the passenger door and shoot us with an AK clone. My balls are flesh, not crystal and I cannot envisage why a supposedly normal guy would come to the door and point a gun at me as it has yet to happen to me personally. This may indeed have happened in this case; I don't KNOW and neither does ANYONE else, including the master Monday morning quarterback, Jason B.

We can all surmise what may have happened but for every supposition or theory, there is another equally valid counter theory. Perception is EVERYTHING. If the deputy that fired did so because he perceived the pistol was pointing at him, how can you say with full confidence he is incompetent? Have you ever made a mistake at work? Never, ever? Agreed, the potential consequences for mistakes in police work are much, much higher and as in this case, sometimes prove fatal. Sadly, there are people who walk this earth who mean to do harm to our fellow citizens, including harming police officers and deputies. Officers often have split seconds to decide if someone is or isn't a threat to them and I have previously posted links to many studies illustrating same.

You want to assume and request police officers and deputies to be superhuman with reactions and abilities no person could possibly possess and when they fall short, you label them incompetent and liars. Most cops do a decent job of what they do. Not a single cop I know wants to come home knowing they shot and killed an innocent person either by design or mistake. You and Jason accuse them of lying when we have not heard a single word from the deputies actually involved in the shooting, only the talking head LT who was far removed from the action and appears to be an arrogant ass.

You can accuse me of bias and yet I should assume from posts by you and Jason that you have no bias whatsoever? When you unfairly accuse the deputies of lying without a shred of evidence? You are basically talking out of your arses but you have the temerity to accuse me of bias? You don't see the blatant hypocrisy inherent in your argument? I guess there are none so blind as those who cannot see.

Why, if the LT is incorrect in the level of crime the suspect they were searching for had committed, have the deputies involved not come forward to correct him? Perhaps they have but rather than call their own press conference, they did it in the way their agency dictates via the chain of command? Jason doesn't know that they did but then, we could fill fooking volumes with what Jason doesn't know. Once the investigation is complete, we will know what actions are to be taken in respect to placing the case in front of a grand jury, the DA or whomever. Until that point, all speculation is simply mental masturbation on the part of all of us, including me. I love FACTS though so if you want to run your mouth and throw accusations around, can you please include some??

On a final note, yes, the Justice 'System' in this nation is sadly very badly broken. I might add that many folks "don't get involved" simply for the same reasons they don't vote or try every trick to get out of jury duty; they are lacking in the moral fiber that requires them to be a participatory member of this republic. Witnesses don't show up to court or vote or sit on juries because their civic duty is overshadowed by their desire to work, watch TV, surf the internet or anyone of a million other reasons.

Civic minded, responsible citizens are often hard to find, especially in the areas many crimes are committed. In addition, decent law abiding folks are often reluctanct to come forward for fear of retailiation by criminals against them for doing so. My area is a very safe place to live yet the perception of criminal retribution, so well fostered by endless TV shows and movies, is very high. Many witnesses want me to "keep my name out of this" or ask "can I get police protection" in exchange for passing on information. The chances of a regular person being the subject of criminal retribution for something like being a witness, even in some of the most crime ridden cities in America is extremely low. However, the PERCEPTION by the general public is entirely different.

Do the police share some of the blame for the reluctance of some citizens to engage in the process? Absolutely. Arrogant, obnoxious cops piss people off who are less likely to come forward but the blame for all of society's ills cannot be laid at the door of the police. Unless, of course, you are a moron and in that case, knock yourself out.

You post of ever increasing numbers of cases of police abuse and corruption yet I would argue that the oversight we see today has more of an impact than in the past. Would you seriously submit that there is more police corruption today than in the days of Prohibition? Or the NYPD of Frank Serpico or the Ramparts division of LAPD? The departmental requirement for video and audio recording of citizen/officer encounters plus the increased use of video and audio recording by 3rd parties of such encounters means officers are scrutinized much more closely than at any time in the past. However, corruption will always exist as the police employ human beings. Just as there is corruption in the military, banking industry, gaming industry and just about every other field of human endeavor, so there will be in the policing field. I and every other decent cop abhors such behavior. I know Jason likes to think otherwise but that's his problem, not mine.

[wonderdog451]

Gman, you can put forth a really good reasoned argument, and as a student of history, I know there was more corruption and abuse of power before and after prohibition, however we now have more access to information (accurate or otherwise) than our predecessors, therefore some of us expect more from our law-enforcement officers than actions that once again lead to the deaths of "innocent" American citizens. I also believe that certain individuals in law enforcement believe that the citizenry are utterly gullible and will believe any story they put out there to explain their actions. But unfortunately for them, these lies are so ill-planned and conceived that they really do not fool anyone. Therefore, if I assumed that because you are a member of law enforcement that your opinion might be a little biased toward other officers, please forgive my arrogance in stereotyping you.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by the gman

I and every other decent cop abhors such behavior. I know Jason likes to think otherwise but that's his problem, not mine.

Where did I ever say a decent cop doesn't abhor such behavior? Please feel free to link to where I said that.

Gonna be tough because I never said anything of the sort.

[wonderdog451]

Gman, just one more question, you state that you do not know why any "normal" man would answer a knock at his door late at night and point a pistol at the person who knocked, you are correct. Therefore, that means the one statement the officers made (which in my opinion) is part of the deception, no one comes to the door at night and just points a pistol at the person on the other side, that is such an outrageous assertion that it needs to be dismissed. But, if if was you, and someone knocked on your door late at night, would you not approach the door with a weapon in hand as a precautionary measure". But no matter what the officers claim happened, another American citizen is dead, guilty of no other crime than answering a knock on his door late at night. And that should be the only fact that matters.

[Story]

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

Gman, just one more question, you state that you do not know why any "normal" man would answer a knock at his door late at night and point a pistol at the person who knocked, you are correct. Therefore, that means the one statement the officers made (which in my opinion) is part of the deception, no one comes to the door at night and just points a pistol at the person on the other side, that is such an outrageous assertion that it needs to be dismissed. But, if if was you, and someone knocked on your door late at night, would you not approach the door with a weapon in hand as a precautionary measure". But no matter what the officers claim happened, another American citizen is dead, guilty of no other crime than answering a knock on his door late at night. And that should be the only fact that matters.

I completely understand what you are saying but perhaps you misunderstood my comments. After working in LE for a little bit of time, I have come to understand and appreciate how right Einstein was with this quote:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

I have seen people do the most stupid things you could ever imagine and yet they do them. Would you agree a normal person would not get their 12 year old daughter to blow into the ignition interlock device (fitted after their first DWI) so the intoxicated mom can drive after her boyfriend? And when the BF refuses to get into the car, the mom calls for the cops to come to force the BF into the car? And that the mom has thoughtfully brought her 12 year old daughter along in case she needs the interlock device blown into again?? Would a 'normal' mother do that? No. But that is EXACTLY what a mother in this town did not 6 months ago.

Would a 'normal' person be having a conversation with the front passenger when he is in the back seat and decide that to prove how tough he is, he will shoot the guy in the back of the head? Would the other 3 'normal' teenagers in the vehicle then assist in stripping out the interior, burning same and then help cut the chassis to pieces with angle grinders and burying it in a hole in order to try to cover up the evidence of the crime?

Only today I learned of a allegedly 'normal' person who carried a weapon into a movie theater here and then fell asleep with it between their feet. When woken by security, he tried to fight for the gun and then attempted to run from the police. He was quickly arrested and his gun was found to be an airsoft but after the Aurora shootings, you have to think "WTF, over?"

Would a 'normal' person decide to drive drunk? Or text and drive? I can give you example after example of where supposedly 'normal' people do the dumbest shit you can imagine. Only this evening I was out at a police function and we all agreed we had complete job security due entirely to the stupidity of human beings.

I cannot conceive of a person coming to the door and pointing a gun at whomever is out there but I see the inconceivable every day and often just shake my head at the stupidity level out there.

[JasonB]

Would a 'normal' group change their story from "looking for someone wanted for aggravated battery" to "looking for someone wanted for attempted murder" after one of their members shot someone while doing the looking?

[wonderdog451]

Originally Posted by the gman

I completely understand what you are saying but perhaps you misunderstood my comments. After working in LE for a little bit of time, I have come to understand and appreciate how right Einstein was with this quote:



I have seen people do the most stupid things you could ever imagine and yet they do them. Would you agree a normal person would not get their 12 year old daughter to blow into the ignition interlock device (fitted after their first DWI) so the intoxicated mom can drive after her boyfriend? And when the BF refuses to get into the car, the mom calls for the cops to come to force the BF into the car? And that the mom has thoughtfully brought her 12 year old daughter along in case she needs the interlock device blown into again?? Would a 'normal' mother do that? No. But that is EXACTLY what a mother in this town did not 6 months ago.

Would a 'normal' person be having a conversation with the front passenger when he is in the back seat and decide that to prove how tough he is, he will shoot the guy in the back of the head? Would the other 3 'normal' teenagers in the vehicle then assist in stripping out the interior, burning same and then help cut the chassis to pieces with angle grinders and burying it in a hole in order to try to cover up the evidence of the crime?

Only today I learned of a allegedly 'normal' person who carried a weapon into a movie theater here and then fell asleep with it between their feet. When woken by security, he tried to fight for the gun and then attempted to run from the police. He was quickly arrested and his gun was found to be an airsoft but after the Aurora shootings, you have to think "WTF, over?"

Would a 'normal' person decide to drive drunk? Or text and drive? I can give you example after example of where supposedly 'normal' people do the dumbest shit you can imagine. Only this evening I was out at a police function and we all agreed we had complete job security due entirely to the stupidity of human beings.

I cannot conceive of a person coming to the door and pointing a gun at whomever is out there but I see the inconceivable every day and often just shake my head at the stupidity level out there.

Well, your last statement is the one most in line with my opinion, the officers account of why they shot the wrong man is so outrageous that it should be thoroughly questioned and ruled implausible, if not just false. Like I have stated before,I have met many people who have kept a loaded weapon by the door. This has been a common practice for over 100 years in America and quite a few other countries, and I personally saw a few relatives of mine keep a shotgun by the door in case any unwelcome visitors (two or four legged) stop by. But, nobody, just opens a door and points a pistol at the person outside. However, when you kill the person who opens the door, thereby eliminating the only person who could refute your statement And change your story about what happened, there is a extremely high probability someone is lying. Now if that were a regular citizen uninvolved in law enforcement or government, they would be facing some serious charges. Personally, I have taken a great deal of interest in incidents involving law enforcement where uninvolved citizens have been hurt or killed, and in every case, the police emulate the politicians and try to minimize their responsibility in the incident and try to find fault with the victims. And that is only part of my problem ( besides the dead citizen), is that the officers are trying to blame the deceased citizen for their behavior. Not that they exercised some really poor judgement, which lead to the unintended death of an American citizen. But, in order to evade the loss of their jobs and the supposed "privilege and status" that come with it as well as any prison or jail time. these "men" have closed ranks and are trying to stick to this outrageous story! That is no different than the recent news story I posted about here in Michigan, where a young lady "supposedly" shot herself in the chest with an officers holstered sidearm.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

Well, your last statement is the one most in line with my opinion, the officers account of why they shot the wrong man is so outrageous that it should be thoroughly questioned and ruled implausible, if not just false. Like I have stated before,I have met many people who have kept a loaded weapon by the door. This has been a common practice for over 100 years in America and quite a few other countries, and I personally saw a few relatives of mine keep a shotgun by the door in case any unwelcome visitors (two or four legged) stop by. But, nobody, just opens a door and points a pistol at the person outside. However, when you kill the person who opens the door, thereby eliminating the only person who could refute your statement And change your story about what happened, there is a extremely high probability someone is lying. Now if that were a regular citizen uninvolved in law enforcement or government, they would be facing some serious charges. Personally, I have taken a great deal of interest in incidents involving law enforcement where uninvolved citizens have been hurt or killed, and in every case, the police emulate the politicians and try to minimize their responsibility in the incident and try to find fault with the victims. And that is only part of my problem ( besides the dead citizen), is that the officers are trying to blame the deceased citizen for their behavior. Not that they exercised some really poor judgement, which lead to the unintended death of an American citizen. But, in order to evade the loss of their jobs and the supposed "privilege and status" that come with it as well as any prison or jail time. these "men" have closed ranks and are trying to stick to this outrageous story! That is no different than the recent news story I posted about here in Michigan, where a young lady "supposedly" shot herself in the chest with an officers holstered sidearm.

I would disagree with your last statement. There is a WORLD of difference between the two incidents; in one, there is simple physics at play whereas the other is a matter of perception or opinion. It is simply physically impossible for a M&P in an IWB holster to fire "accidentally" and kill someone with a round to the chest while the wearer is receiving a 'hug' from another person. I am an M&P armorer and it is simply not possible for the incident to have occurred the way it has been described. It is going to take a wrongful death lawsuit from the victim's family to discover the truth in this matter.

In this case, while it is difficult to conceive, I already gave you several examples of where supposedly 'normal' people do completely inconceivable things and I have no doubt other officers could give you a million more. Ergo, rather than focus on what you PERSONALLY find difficult to believe, we have to focus on what was possible. Arthur Conan Doyle, author of the 'Sherlock Holmes' novels famously said:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

It is absolutely NOT impossible this guy came to the door and pointed a gun at whomever was outside it. Stupid people do stupid shit every day; some die as a result of their actions. I am not trying to make light of the situation but you are completely fixated on how impossible it is for you to understand or believe the guy might ACTUALLY have done what the deputies say he did.

If you were faced with a man telling you to keep back when he held a firearm in his hand, hearing the man tell you you were making him scared for his life, would you keep advancing? I had a guy do exactly that some years ago. Is that inconceivable? Impossible? NO. Stupid? You bet your ass and he could have got dead right quick if I had perceived he was a bigger threat. If I had shot him, would you have read my account of the incident in the paper and arbitrarily decided that because my story was so far away from what YOU considered logical, sensible and conceivable, I MUST be lying?

That is EXACTLY what you are doing. You are projecting YOUR values, belief system, experiences and life onto the dead guy for some emotional reason over being objective and evaluating the situation in the whole. It might very well be inconceivable but I cannot conceive of deliberately flying a jet liner filled with men, women and children into a skyscraper. I cannot conceive of walking into a theater and randomly shooting men, women and children. I cannot conceive of getting my rocks off on images of children being tortured or sexually abused or plotting to abduct, rape, murder and then cook and eat children but there are people out there who do inconceivable things and they do them every day.

Jason, charges are amended, upwards or downwards everyday by supervisors, DA's and attorneys. I have absolutely no doubt the charges being amended upwards was a result of the shooting and were done for political reasons, probably by upper management at the Sheriff's office or the DA's office. Still does NOT mean, no matter how fooking hard you try to spin it, that the deputies involved in the shooting have or did lie at any point. Nice try but no cigar.

[JasonB]

I never said the deputies directly involved lied.

I also never said decent cops do not abhor bad behavior by other cops.

Want to make up something else today that I haven't said and try to see if it will stick? Do you do this with your investiagations?

[wonderdog451]

So you mean this is simply going to come down to the fact that despite evidence that the deputies exercised some really bad judgement, either through arrogance, ignorance, or just plain stupidity and killed the one person who might have proved them wrong , we will have to accept the fact that they have sullied whatever positive reputation this man might have had with this incredible tale that I find incredibly hard to believe. At the very least, if you are going to lie about the events of that night, tell a lie that does not insult the intelligence of any American with an I.Q over 50. And the reason I still think it is a lie is because unless someone is expecting violence from someone, no one would ever open a door and just point a pistol at someone. That situation ranks up there with winning the state lottery, but you are right about one thing and I will use your quote," When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.". And I am saying that even with an unannounced knock on the door at night, what they are claiming is so rare as to be almost impossible. Especially living in a multiple occupant dwelling, such behavior is unheard of, even in trailer parks!

[the gman]

Originally Posted by JasonB

I never said the deputies directly involved lied.

I also never said decent cops do not abhor bad behavior by other cops.

Want to make up something else today that I haven't said and try to see if it will stick? Do you do this with your investiagations?

No son, you never directly said those things but you have certainly intimated the same. You asked why, if the LT wasn't telling the truth, haven't the deputies involved come forward to refute his account did you not? I countered with you have NO FOOKING idea if they have or haven't but you still toss out mindless BS in an attempt to smear people's reputations. You mentioned lying but when called on it, you can't show a single LIE anywhere.

Even upgrading charges isn't lying if the elements of the crime fit the description of what the suspect did. You have nothing, you never had anything and you twist words to suit your purpose. So, to use your own words, SHOW ME WHERE THE LIES WERE IN THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED TO AND HIGHLIGHT WHERE THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE MENTIONS THE WORD(S) "LIED, LYING OR LIES" OR JUST STFU.

[the gman]

Originally Posted by wonderdog451

So you mean this is simply going to come down to the fact that despite evidence that the deputies exercised some really bad judgement, either through arrogance, ignorance, or just plain stupidity and killed the one person who might have proved them wrong , we will have to accept the fact that they have sullied whatever positive reputation this man might have had with this incredible tale that I find incredibly hard to believe. At the very least, if you are going to lie about the events of that night, tell a lie that does not insult the intelligence of any American with an I.Q over 50. And the reason I still think it is a lie is because unless someone is expecting violence from someone, no one would ever open a door and just point a pistol at someone. That situation ranks up there with winning the state lottery, but you are right about one thing and I will use your quote," When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.". And I am saying that even with an unannounced knock on the door at night, what they are claiming is so rare as to be almost impossible. Especially living in a multiple occupant dwelling, such behavior is unheard of, even in trailer parks!

You need to get out more. Seriously. The level of stupidity exhibited by many of our fellow humans is staggering in its enormity.

You talk of behavior in "trailer parks" without the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Why would a 17 year old Native American male dress as a female (complete with fake boobs and make up) and attempt to violently break into a trailer he has no connection with occupied by an elderly Native American couple? Why would he then run away and try to gain entrance to another trailer a 1/4 mile away in the park occupied by a Hispanic family with whom he also has no connection to? And this would be at 4am on a Thursday morning?? I deal with activities in this 400 space trailer park on a nightly basis as do my fellow officers and some of the stuff we see, well, let's just say you would understand completely where I am coming from!!!

You refuse to countenance even the possibility that this person may have done exactly what the deputies said he did? And this is because you cannot even think that anyone would be so stupid?

Is it beyond stupid to keep advancing on an armed person when they tell you to stop? Or to punch out a window because you are mad at someone else when that results in you almost dying from the resultant laceration? (seen that twice in the last 4 months with 2 different people) Or to drive drunk? Or to run a red light in front of a cop when your driving privileges are revoked with an arrest clause? Or to call the cops to have your sister removed from your hotel room when you KNOW you have 3 warrants for your arrest, one of which is a no bond warrant for violating your parole and will put you back in jail for 2 years??

Are you kidding me?? This stuff above happened in the last MONTH and most within the last 2 weeks to people I have arrested or come into contact with. I notice you totally ignore the Einstein quote that is ABSOLUTELY the single most accurate observation of human nature I think has ever been made.

You postulate that "no-one" would do as this guy did but guess what? A whole bunch of people do stuff every day that you and I would think "no-one" would ever do. The FACT remains that despite your incredulity and absolute reluctance to accept that the possibility EXISTS that this guy either did as the deputies say he did OR they PERCEIVED that is what he did, your position is fundamentally untenable and illogical.

It's fine to hold such emotionally based views but please don't attempt to pass them off as absolutes or anything more than your opinion or use them as an indication that others are lying because of your reluctance to consider alternatives. I can see the discussion we have been having is at an end for I cannot discuss matters with people who refuse to have an open mind.

My mind is certainly open to the possibility that the deputies may be lying and they made a terrible mistake, either by nervousness, inexperience or incompetence. It is also open to the possibility the deputy who shot the guy is not lying, even if the guy did not have the gun pointed at him if his PERCEPTION was that was the case. It is also open to the possibility that the guy was stupid enough to point a gun at the deputy and that is why he got shot.

You talk of reputations being sullied yet you have no problem sullying the reputations of the deputies involved with your inability to wrap your head around the level of stupidity displayed by humans at times. Maybe this guy didn't intend to point the gun at the deputies; maybe it was in his hand and as he opened the door, he used that gun hand to pull the door open, thereby inadvertently muzzle sweeping the deputies? Ever consider that possibility?

I guess not.

[JasonB]

Originally Posted by the gman

No son, you never directly said those things but you have certainly intimated the same. You asked why, if the LT wasn't telling the truth, haven't the deputies involved come forward to refute his account did you not? I countered with you have NO FOOKING idea if they have or haven't but you still toss out mindless BS in an attempt to smear people's reputations. You mentioned lying but when called on it, you can't show a single LIE anywhere.

Even upgrading charges isn't lying if the elements of the crime fit the description of what the suspect did. You have nothing, you never had anything and you twist words to suit your purpose. So, to use your own words, SHOW ME WHERE THE LIES WERE IN THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED TO AND HIGHLIGHT WHERE THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE MENTIONS THE WORD(S) "LIED, LYING OR LIES" OR JUST STFU.

Well we do know for a fact I have never said a decent cop does not abhor wrong doing as you directly said. That doesn't even make sense, but you were grasping for anything to smear me so we know how you operate now.

The switching the charge may or may not be lying, but given the circumstances it would seem to fall under the former rather than the latter.

[wonderdog451]

Originally Posted by the gman

You need to get out more. Seriously. The level of stupidity exhibited by many of our fellow humans is staggering in its enormity.

You talk of behavior in "trailer parks" without the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Why would a 17 year old Native American male dress as a female (complete with fake boobs and make up) and attempt to violently break into a trailer he has no connection with occupied by an elderly Native American couple? Why would he then run away and try to gain entrance to another trailer a 1/4 mile away in the park occupied by a Hispanic family with whom he also has no connection to? And this would be at 4am on a Thursday morning?? I deal with activities in this 400 space trailer park on a nightly basis as do my fellow officers and some of the stuff we see, well, let's just say you would understand completely where I am coming from!!!

You refuse to countenance even the possibility that this person may have done exactly what the deputies said he did? And this is because you cannot even think that anyone would be so stupid?

Is it beyond stupid to keep advancing on an armed person when they tell you to stop? Or to punch out a window because you are mad at someone else when that results in you almost dying from the resultant laceration? (seen that twice in the last 4 months with 2 different people) Or to drive drunk? Or to run a red light in front of a cop when your driving privileges are revoked with an arrest clause? Or to call the cops to have your sister removed from your hotel room when you KNOW you have 3 warrants for your arrest, one of which is a no bond warrant for violating your parole and will put you back in jail for 2 years??

Are you kidding me?? This stuff above happened in the last MONTH and most within the last 2 weeks to people I have arrested or come into contact with. I notice you totally ignore the Einstein quote that is ABSOLUTELY the single most accurate observation of human nature I think has ever been made.

You postulate that "no-one" would do as this guy did but guess what? A whole bunch of people do stuff every day that you and I would think "no-one" would ever do. The FACT remains that despite your incredulity and absolute reluctance to accept that the possibility EXISTS that this guy either did as the deputies say he did OR they PERCEIVED that is what he did, your position is fundamentally untenable and illogical.

It's fine to hold such emotionally based views but please don't attempt to pass them off as absolutes or anything more than your opinion or use them as an indication that others are lying because of your reluctance to consider alternatives. I can see the discussion we have been having is at an end for I cannot discuss matters with people who refuse to have an open mind.

My mind is certainly open to the possibility that the deputies may be lying and they made a terrible mistake, either by nervousness, inexperience or incompetence. It is also open to the possibility the deputy who shot the guy is not lying, even if the guy did not have the gun pointed at him if his PERCEPTION was that was the case. It is also open to the possibility that the guy was stupid enough to point a gun at the deputy and that is why he got shot.

You talk of reputations being sullied yet you have no problem sullying the reputations of the deputies involved with your inability to wrap your head around the level of stupidity displayed by humans at times. Maybe this guy didn't intend to point the gun at the deputies; maybe it was in his hand and as he opened the door, he used that gun hand to pull the door open, thereby inadvertently muzzle sweeping the deputies? Ever consider that possibility?

I guess not.

But you just made my point for me when you state " the level of stupidity exhibited by our fellow human beings is unbelievable". That should and would include the deputies. Who never thought that an unannounced knock at 0130 might be construed as a prelude to a hostile act by a resident. So at the very least these deputies or deputy/deputies who fired the are guilty of manslaughter. just as if the resident had put his pistol in the face of his unannounced visitor and pulled the trigger and then tried to claim that he felt "threatened" by that person. Now if any of the inconsistencies in the deputies story are found to be attempts at deception, then they need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, not the slap on the wrist that many members of law enforcement get ( desk duty, administrative leave, etc...)

[gunplumber]

Wow.

G-man, hats off to you for excellent writing. We seem to butt heads on occasion but it is always a pleasure to read your posts.

Three tangential stories.

My dogs went wild. Not their "get the rabbit" barks, but something that told me not only to get out of bed, but to get my gun. I have a surefire 300 weapons light on my G17 and flip-flops. nothing else. I do a perimeter search. I find nothing. But now I'm thinking. Suppose I found someone in my front yard or driveway. I cannot illuminate them without also pointing my weapon at them, considering my light is weapon-mounted. Suppose it is a legitimate trespass, such as a sheriff officer investigating something, chasing someone, whatever. Now I'm pointing a gun at a cop. This is not a desirable situation. Now I keep a 9P surefire with the Glock so I can illuminate without pointing my gun at someone.

My parked truck was the victim of a drunk hit and run in CA around midnight. I filed a report. Two hours or so later, I'm asleep and there is a pounding on the door. No ID. I open the door a crack with my Browning Hi Power behind the door. It is the San Bernardino Police Department. I inform the officers that I have a gun and I am going to close the door, put the gun away, and come back unarmed, and if that was ok with them. They agreed, I did, and I found they were here to tell me that they had caught the guy and did I wish to press charges.

So there are legitimate reasons for cops to be banging on doors in the middle of the night, and there are legitimate reasons to answer the door armed.

In this case, I just don't know. If the guy was merely armed, the cops murdered him. If the guy was pointing his gun at the police, they responded rationally. That we only have one story, and my past experiences lead me to distrust police in general, makes me suspect that the former is the case, but there is simply no evidence to support my suspicions.

I'm passenger in a friends car around 10 PM after having dinner. Daughter is maybe 5 years old, in car seat in back. Some college type person (right by ASU) begs for money. I tell him to f-ck off. He begins screaming incoherently and kicking the $hit out of the side of my friend's car. The window is halfway down. I pull my Glock 17, point it at his face and command him BACK OFF! He says "oh - you gotta gun - well f-cking shoot me I want to die. Go ahead and shoot me!" My mental line in the sand is if his hands come through the window, I pull the trigger. He apparently had friends and they tackled him and shoved him into their car. I call 911. Call drops. I don't call back. I'm tired and just want to go home. I'm pondering how the report can be skewed. "Deranged gunman threatens innocent college student with gun." Point of story - some people are not intimidated by having a gun in their face and are unbalanced enough that the threat of lethal force is insufficient to resolve the problem. I'd like to carry pepper spray as that would have been a great response, but unfortunately with inside car temperatures exceeding 140F in AZ, pepper spray tends to blow up if left in car. Still pondering less-lethal alternatives.

G-man: If I were to call dispatch and say "I have two guys who won't identify themselves banging on my door, do you have any cops on official business on my street?" would dispatch answer, or be unable to because of the covert nature of responding to a high-risk call?

[wonderdog451]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Wow.

G-man, hats off to you for excellent writing. We seem to butt heads on occasion but it is always a pleasure to read your posts.

Three tangential stories.

My dogs went wild. Not their "get the rabbit" barks, but something that told me not only to get out of bed, but to get my gun. I have a surefire 300 weapons light on my G17 and flip-flops. nothing else. I do a perimeter search. I find nothing. But now I'm thinking. Suppose I found someone in my front yard or driveway. I cannot illuminate them without also pointing my weapon at them, considering my light is weapon-mounted. Suppose it is a legitimate trespass, such as a sheriff officer investigating something, chasing someone, whatever. Now I'm pointing a gun at a cop. This is not a desirable situation. Now I keep a 9P surefire with the Glock so I can illuminate without pointing my gun at someone.

My parked truck was the victim of a drunk hit and run in CA around midnight. I filed a report. Two hours or so later, I'm asleep and there is a pounding on the door. No ID. I open the door a crack with my Browning Hi Power behind the door. It is the San Bernardino Police Department. I inform the officers that I have a gun and I am going to close the door, put the gun away, and come back unarmed, and if that was ok with them. They agreed, I did, and I found they were here to tell me that they had caught the guy and did I wish to press charges.

So there are legitimate reasons for cops to be banging on doors in the middle of the night, and there are legitimate reasons to answer the door armed.

In this case, I just don't know. If the guy was merely armed, the cops murdered him. If the guy was pointing his gun at the police, they responded rationally. That we only have one story, and my past experiences lead me to distrust police in general, makes me suspect that the former is the case, but there is simply no evidence to support my suspicions.

I'm passenger in a friends car around 10 PM after having dinner. Daughter is maybe 5 years old, in car seat in back. Some college type person (right by ASU) begs for money. I tell him to f-ck off. He begins screaming incoherently and kicking the $hit out of the side of my friend's car. The window is halfway down. I pull my Glock 17, point it at his face and command him BACK OFF! He says "oh - you gotta gun - well f-cking shoot me I want to die. Go ahead and shoot me!" My mental line in the sand is if his hands come through the window, I pull the trigger. He apparently had friends and they tackled him and shoved him into their car. I call 911. Call drops. I don't call back. I'm tired and just want to go home. I'm pondering how the report can be skewed. "Deranged gunman threatens innocent college student with gun." Point of story - some people are not intimidated by having a gun in their face and are unbalanced enough that the threat of lethal force is insufficient to resolve the problem. I'd like to carry pepper spray as that would have been a great response, but unfortunately with inside car temperatures exceeding 140F in AZ, pepper spray tends to blow up if left in car. Still pondering less-lethal alternatives.

G-man: If I were to call dispatch and say "I have two guys who won't identify themselves banging on my door, do you have any cops on official business on my street?" would dispatch answer, or be unable to because of the covert nature of responding to a high-risk call?

Gunplumber, you and G-man both make some highly reasoned arguments and as someone who has been shot and shot at several times,I can tell you that it is my experience that tells me there is something suspicious about the officers account of that night. The last time someone knocked on my door at night, it was to tell me that the house next to mine was in fire! And even then I still had a weapon at my side until I could verify that fact ( the orange glow and smell of smoke made it quite obvious). But being that this man did live in an apartment( remarkably similar to one I lived in 6-7 years ago), it is a distinctly remote possibility that anyone would behave like that, knowing that you have multiple neighbors. And even though some of us have met some extremely deranged individuals, that does not mean that the overwhelming majority of people are insane.

[NHBandit]

Good thing this kind of stuff dosn't happen often... http://www.cato.org/raidmap/