Rifle Challenge

[brunop]

^

This is just so much BS - I'm learning how to:

a) lathe and machine gun parts, and I'm also
b) shooting more regularly

specifically so I can be more like Shlomo and Stimpy - who mezmerized me a couple of years ago with tales from the shop floor...


I don't have a video camera besides my phone, which won't be the best tool for that job. But I'm going to run it at least once a month - gotta get ready for the Oregon FAL Shoot next year - where this challenge will be part of the festivities.

[brunop]

Originally Posted by shlomo

...But I will not surrender, and I still had a helluva good time with it. I also think I can do six seconds with the rifle, but the pistol may never get there.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm sure you can do it in six. After all, the guys running sub-8 on Moses' shoot aren't doing that every time. That's the 'target' time.

I'm pretty sure that the 4.5x magnification that Kotengu was using probably hurt him (small field of view, taking time to 'center' the reticle, etc.). I suspect that the fastest way to do this will be at 0 magnification or at 2x at the most. Irons should work really well - this is an 8 MOA hold after all. I think a good cheek weld is the most important thing here - head and eyes back on target as fast as possible.

[rowjimmy]

Alright, had my match today. The bolt on my Bushmaster broke right where the cam pin goes throught it on Stage 3. Stage 4 is the stage with the clays and reduced IPSC targets at 50 yds. My friend Meg says I can run her rifle. It's a Lancer Systems, I'm not sure what kind of optic she was running, free float tube and Miculek brake. Balances perfectly.

I shoot the three clays first on the stage. 7.12 seconds, 3 shots, 3 hits. Take that bitches...

I never shot the rifle before, but it practically shot itself. I think the major difference was the Chip McCormick single stage trigger versus my crappy stock Bushmaster double stage. While the rilfe does not make the rifleman, equipment can make a difference. Maybe I'm not as bad as I feared. I could definitely see running this in under 6 seconds.

[brunop]

Good for you!

Good triggers have always helped good shooting. Brake don't hurt none, either.

Yeah - that's what I was thinking: six seconds seems like a target time like 8 seconds on Moses' event. Some will shoot above and near it, and some people will, on occasion, shoot below it.

1. What ammo?
2. What magnification?
3. What stock?

If the rifle felt like it shot itself, it is more likely to be a fitment/comfort issue than the trigger - though that would help a bunch. I'm curious about how you liked the cheek weld vis-a-vis the optic you were using. And do you shoot this with both eyes open?

Congrats!

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

My friend Meg says I can run her rifle. It's a Lancer Systems, I'm not sure what kind of optic she was running, free float tube and Miculek brake. Balances perfectly.

Meg? Custom AR for three-gun?


Good on ye, lad. I guess I gotta get busy and get my mierda in one sock.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by brunop

Good for you!

Good triggers have always helped good shooting. Brake don't hurt none, either.

Yeah - that's what I was thinking: six seconds seems like a target time like 8 seconds on Moses' event. Some will shoot above and near it, and some people will, on occasion, shoot below it.

1. What ammo?
2. What magnification?
3. What stock?

If the rifle felt like it shot itself, it is more likely to be a fitment/comfort issue than the trigger - though that would help a bunch. I'm curious about how you liked the cheek weld vis-a-vis the optic you were using. And do you shoot this with both eyes open?

Congrats!

I'm not sure as she let me run her ammo out of her mags. I think it was a 1-4x set on 4. The optic had a small circle in the center for a reticle with no crosshairs. And I think the stock might have been a standard "lancer systems" stock built with the gun. I am getting this rifle in the same configuration. It was awesome to shoot. I am left handed but right-eye dominant and shoot right handed. I close my left eye. I know you're not supposed to, but my left eye vies for attention when I leave it open and I get a "duplex view" of the optic and the left side of the barrel.



Thanks, I felt vindicated when I ran this. I was frustrated with my prior attempts.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Meg? Custom AR for three-gun?


Good on ye, lad. I guess I gotta get busy and get my mierda in one sock.

She's married as am I. Her husband is one lucky man. They are both good shooters and just all around good people. They stay and help until the clean up work is done after the match even though they have a few hour drive. I am lucky to call them friends.

On a lighter note, she may have persuaded my wife to try shooting, something I have been unsuccessful at. My daughters have been more receptive to my encouragement though.

[shlomo]

Ya meet the best people at matches.

[brunop]

I was thinking the same thing.

[stimpsonjcat]

This sounds like fun!

20 clays at 50 yards for next years FAL match...standing of course!

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by stimpsonjcat

This sounds like fun!

20 clays at 50 yards for next years FAL match...standing of course!

All participants to be timed with a calendar.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I saw the winkie. I was jist givin props to Brunop, who, like Stimp, makes me ashamed for not being a better man.

Ha!

If you only knew how many clock cycles you have cost me! Still, I'd pay twice the price for what it has brought me.

I keep a very short list of people I consider 'very dangerous critters'. You may be older than some on that list, but you still outrank some of those that are younger. My estimation of folks often starts on the range, and some folks...that's all they've got. The really fun ones are the folks with skills I have not and find fascinating. In many ways I am happily still, and hope to remain, your student.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by shlomo

I saw the winkie.

I like the clay-shooting challenge, but if ya'll are showing each other your winkies I think I'm out.

I do want to know how fast Stimp can do it though - gotta have goals!

[brunop]

I wanna know how fast anyone with an iron-sighted FAL can do it.

The real challenge will be to do it with an FAL in six seconds.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by brunop

I wanna know how fast anyone with an iron-sighted FAL can do it.

The real challenge will be to do it with an FAL in six seconds.

The glory in that will be worth the expenditure in ammo.

[brunop]

Amen!! I'm trying tomorrow. Depending on how it goes, I may spend a whopping 50 rounds to get an FAL baseline...

[rowjimmy]

I have accruacy problems with my FAL, it seems to shoot around 4 moa at best with DAG. Also, different ammo seems to have different poi. I have shot it prone and from a bench and while the trigger is stout, I know I can shoot better groups with my AR even with iron sights.

I just expended 40 rounds readjusting the sights yesterday and at 100 yds think I got it around 1 to 2" high and dead on windage. It is amazing the amount small drifts in the rear sight will adjust poi. Also, sometimes I was getting horizontal stringing in my groups. Sometimes, the groups were really good, then they would be all over, and I really don't think it was me as I took the time to make good shots. Is it possible there is that much variation in the ammo and the tolerances of my rifle?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know if I could hit them with my FAL even if I did my part.

Shot a few at 25 yds with the pistol yesterday no problem. 50, not so much. I will get around to trying it with the FAL and see if I can even hit them.

[brunop]

4" clay at 50 yards = 8 MOA shooting. If your FAL can't do it, you either need a new muzzle crown, a new barrel, or (doubt it) a new FAL.

Or you need to start eating your Wheaties.


Joking aside, when you shoot your FAL off a bench, you should be aware of different pressures on your barrel - as they are known for vertical stringing on a bipod, and probably could string horizontally from different pressures from a bag or sling.

I shoot off a backpack, and keep it as close to the mag well as possible. And when I have to shoot well, I shoot decent ammo like DAG or MEN or Aussie or the new Privi (PPU) 145 gr. ball ammo which is pretty decent, and is boxer primed, and can be had from Wideners for ~ $0.52/rd.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by brunop

I wanna know how fast anyone with an iron-sighted FAL can do it.

Now you are confusing me. What has everyone been using?

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by stimpsonjcat

Now you are confusing me. What has everyone been using?

Poodle shooters so far.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by brunop

4" clay at 50 yards = 8 MOA shooting. If your FAL can't do it, you either need a new muzzle crown, a new barrel, or (doubt it) a new FAL.

Or you need to start eating your Wheaties.


Joking aside, when you shoot your FAL off a bench, you should be aware of different pressures on your barrel - as they are known for vertical stringing on a bipod, and probably could string horizontally from different pressures from a bag or sling.

I shoot off a backpack, and keep it as close to the mag well as possible. And when I have to shoot well, I shoot decent ammo like DAG or MEN or Aussie or the new Privi (PPU) 145 gr. ball ammo which is pretty decent, and is boxer primed, and can be had from Wideners for ~ $0.52/rd.

I actually had to file my front sight post down after I took the bipod off and quit using it because the rifle shot low. It is very ammo sensitive the SA and PPU shoots more accurately than the DAG. I have shot a few 2 or 3 moa groups from prone with the other ammo. It seemed to like the Malaysian too.

The rifle only has about 1 k through it, it is a DSA STG with American barrel. I use the bottom of the mag as a support when shooting prone or from the bench so I shouldn't be interfering with the barrel harmonics.

I'm probably gonna shoot it a little more today and see how I do. I don't think I need to eat any wheaties, I'm more concerned with muscling the gun than supporting it. I'm pretty dense muscle-wise.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Poodle shooters so far.

All my runs have been with the FAL, albeit a scoped one as I was doing load development at the time. I think I can do 6 seconds with an iron sight FAL - but it's going to take a little practice. I did four shots in under eight seconds and missed one by a hair. Three good hits at 2 seconds each sounds reasonable.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I use the bottom of the mag as a support...

Cease this behavior immediately.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by stimpsonjcat

Cease this behavior immediately.

Why Stimpy? I do it with my AR and it doesn't affect anything. Why can't I use the bottom of the mag as a monopod with the FAL? I'm always willing to learn.

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Why Stimpy? I do it with my AR and it doesn't affect anything. Why can't I use the bottom of the mag as a monopod with the FAL? I'm always willing to learn.

The mag/mag-catch was not designed to deal with the stresses that using it as a monopod adds. A marginal lockup rifle will start dropping mags when you don't want it to, a good lockup rifle will become a marginal one. Or it may eventually just shear the pin/screw.

I have been an RO for many years and watched many shooters do various things, using the mag as a rest is in my top 5 habits that will cause you failures at some point. It may never happen to you, but I have seen it so often I feel compelled to comment on it.

[rowjimmy]

Thanks. So how do you usually support the rifle from prone if there is no raised surface (sand bag/dirt mound, etc..) to shoot off of? Just use your elbows and support the forend as though shooting off-hand?

I know what the bipod on my STG58 did to my poa/poi when not using the bipod. It seemed to me that if you had it sighted in to shoot from the bipod that shooting it off hand made everything hit low. I dumped the bipod as a result.

I definitely don't want to screw my rifle up if that is a possibility of using the mag as a monopod. Is this true of the AR as well or just the FAL as I've not had any problems in 7 or 8k rounds of doing this.

Your insights are appreciated.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Thanks. So how do you usually support the rifle from prone if there is no raised surface (sand bag/dirt mound, etc..) to shoot off of? Just use your elbows and support the forend as though shooting off-hand?

I know what the bipod on my STG58 did to my poa/poi when not using the bipod. It seemed to me that if you had it sighted in to shoot from the bipod that shooting it off hand made everything hit low. I dumped the bipod as a result.

I definitely don't want to screw my rifle up if that is a possibility of using the mag as a monopod. Is this true of the AR as well or just the FAL as I've not had any problems in 7 or 8k rounds of doing this.

Your insights are appreciated.

The sling is used for support. When used properly in the prone position, it is as solid as using sand bags. But, it requires a lot of practice to do it right and to get your body adapted. At first, it is very uncomfortable. But once acclimated, it is not uncomfortable at all.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle

The sling is used for support. When used properly in the prone position, it is as solid as using sand bags. But, it requires a lot of practice to do it right and to get your body adapted. At first, it is very uncomfortable. But once acclimated, it is not uncomfortable at all.

I don't know how to properly use a sling as whenever I do (since it is attached to the barrel on the AR and FAL), it pulls my shots to the side. I've tried shouldering the rifle and wrapping the sling around the elbow of my support arm and tightening up the slack but it has a detrimental effect on my poa/poi.

[stimpsonjcat]

On a free-floated AR then the sling is for sure a good way to stay stable.

On a FAL or other gas-block mounted sling point type rifle, you are correct it will affect POI. You can either figure this out and get used to it, or skip it.

When I was shooting highpower reduced matches with the FAL, I used a sling and just got used to how much I could yank on it.

For 3-gun I wouldn't use it. I use a single point sling on a 'sling-thingy' I got here on FALfiles. So when I shoot off of the ground I am up on elbows and pulling into the shoulder. It isn't as stable for sure, but I have made some really difficult shots this way before at 200 yards.

If you get a rest of any kind, try to prop the rifle just forward of the magwell rather than further out the bbl.

[shlomo]

Jimmy, rest the mag on your support fore-arm, hand out on the fore-end. This is not as good as a bag/bipod/sling, but about 75% as good, and WAY better than holding it up by muscle power in prone.

Just don't shoot Wolf ammo when doing this. The reason should be obvious.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Jimmy, rest the mag on your support fore-arm, hand out on the fore-end.

I know your arms are a whole lot longer than mine, but I can't figure for the life of me how you make this work. I even just went outside to try it - when I rest the mag on any part of my forearm, my support fingertips just barely touch the forend (and only with my wrist cocked awkwardly). Can you post a pic?

For what it's worth, in addition to the possibility of malfunctions I've found that any mag-based rest I've tried isn't very accurate either. Resting the mag on a hard surface makes the rifle jump unpredictably and seems to scatter the shots a bit. Soft surfaces are better, but still doesn't do very well for me. Even holding the magazine on the front and pulling into my shoulder (sort of like a vertical grip on an AR) makes me more likely to anticipate recoil and pull shots low and left.

I was never as good as Stimpy (on SEVERAL levels!) at figuring out the sling hold thing, and always did better without a sling at all. Of all the different prone positions I found just holding my support palm OPEN (almost flat - fingers not curled around the forend) and under the handguard gives me the best groups. It's a little like shooting standing as it's still not very stable, but for whatever reason that's what's worked best for me. That is, until my bicep gets tired and then it all starts to go to hell.

For 3-gun and action stuff I hold the forend firmly with my support hand and pull tight into the shoulder with both hands. Accuracy suffers a little this way, but recoil control is better and follow-up shots come more quickly.

Bottom line is that you just have to try a bunch of stuff and see what works best for you.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by kotengu

I know your arms are a whole lot longer than mine, but I can't figure for the life of me how you make this work. I even just went outside to try it - when I rest the mag on any part of my forearm, my support fingertips just barely touch the forend (and only with my wrist cocked awkwardly). Can you post a pic?

For what it's worth, in addition to the possibility of malfunctions I've found that any mag-based rest I've tried isn't very accurate either. Resting the mag on a hard surface makes the rifle jump unpredictably and seems to scatter the shots a bit. Soft surfaces are better, but still doesn't do very well for me. Even holding the magazine on the front and pulling into my shoulder (sort of like a vertical grip on an AR) makes me more likely to anticipate recoil and pull shots low and left.

I was never as good as Stimpy (on SEVERAL levels!) at figuring out the sling hold thing, and always did better without a sling at all. Of all the different prone positions I found just holding my support palm OPEN (almost flat - fingers not curled around the forend) and under the handguard gives me the best groups. It's a little like shooting standing as it's still not very stable, but for whatever reason that's what's worked best for me. That is, until my bicep gets tired and then it all starts to go to hell.

For 3-gun and action stuff I hold the forend firmly with my support hand and pull tight into the shoulder with both hands. Accuracy suffers a little this way, but recoil control is better and follow-up shots come more quickly.

Bottom line is that you just have to try a bunch of stuff and see what works best for you.

This is the best that I can do for the moment, to illustrate the support arm. Not me, obviously. But it illustrates the forearm directly under the stock line, and the position of the upper arm. The mag is rested on the fore-arm, and the hand grasps the handguards wherever it falls on it, creating a triangle between barrel, mag, and forearm. The hand is actually pulling down slightly on the handguards, pressing the mag into the arm. (I do not wear sweatshirts for this because I'm chilly.) With the butt in the shoulder and the pistolgrip hand an arm grounded well, it makes a surprisingly stable position without a sling.

The length of the FAL's receiver may make this troublesome for many. I know that it gives me fits when trying to shoot from sitting. Adapt, improvise, overcome. Many a technique has been developed in the basement at odd hours.

[rowjimmy]

I tried to run this with the FAl today with irons and it was miserable. I'm going to see where it's at on paper, supported at 50 yds. I had some dirt piles chewed up above the clays, but I've noticed I sometimes tend to shoot high off hand, don't know if it's me, the sights, or more likely, a combination.

[brunop]

In the famous words of one Clint Smith, "Hey, uh, Jeff - it ain't the gun."

Those are words to live by.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I tried to run this with the FAl today with irons and it was miserable. I'm going to see where it's at on paper, supported at 50 yds. I had some dirt piles chewed up above the clays, but I've noticed I sometimes tend to shoot high off hand, don't know if it's me, the sights, or more likely, a combination.

If yer goin' out to hit something, Rule #1:

Have a zero.

[rowjimmy]

I had a 50/200 yd zero, but then adjusted the sights. I was shooting three different types of ammo and they all seemed to have different poi. I wanted to find a compromise. Last time I was shooting only DAG at 100 yds and I thought I was 1 1/2" high or so (which I should be for 50/200 zero) but I need to recheck it. DAG is the least accurate ammo in my rifle. SA, Prvi and Malaysian all shoot better. Alas, I have no more SA though. Maybe my poor groups with DAG are a result of using the mag as a monopod, I am going to check that as well.

Brunop, sometimes it is the gun. My Glock shoots to the left. I have to drift the rear sight to the right so poa/poi coincide. One time, the rear sight screw backed out and when I reset it, the rear sight was centered. I shot a hell of a group, but it was left of poa. When I adjusted it and drifted it to the right , I was gtg. So, sometimes it is the gun. I also find the trigger on the FAL makes it challenging to shoot.

[rowjimmy]

I'm about 90% certain I ran this in 7.76 s with the FAL with iron sights on my third run yesterday.

I had two sets of clays set up at 50 yds, and when I went to check, I found I rolled/flipped 2 of them, but I think they were from the second set of clays, not the run I cleaned in 7.76 s. It's tough to tell because there is so much more energy in the 7.62 that it could have flipped the clay all the way towards the other set and up the bank from it.

Anyway, I'd call the run good.