7.62 AR????

[Deltaten]

My son called from the Sand Box this morning. Seems he picked up a SGN from the PX and was perusing the offerings of "big boy" AR's. He mentioned the Knight's and one, he sez, is made by LMT. Would that one be the LAR?? I believe that one uses a (slightly modified) FAL magazine; but which one, I don;t know.
He also told me that the one's he was looking at had a "cheese grater" forend and full length rail. Any clues as to which one that was? Apparently they all run close to 3K and the one he thinks he wants is closer to 5 G's !!!!!

IIRC, there were a few threads concerning pro/con debates and reviews on the big bore AR's. Anyone have them tagged? and could provide a link? My search-fu is weak

I'd like to be able to converse intelligently about these with him. Of course, he will chose the one he wants; not necessarily the one I recommend.
Ya can always tell a Marine.... ya just can;t tell 'em much!

[Illurian00]

The Knight offering was picked up by the Army a few years ago, after field trials against the other 7.62 ARs' that were availible at that time, for a spotter/sniper rifle. Their is a report online if you care to look it up.

Don't know anything LMT, but it was them or Daniel that the Brits' opted for. in 7.62.

Christensen Arms offers one w/ their carbon wraped barrel. I thought that might cut the weight, but their website is sparse for specs, they won't even give the price.

Rock River offers the LAR8 that runs on FAL mags, I don't believe that the mags are modified. Forrest has a couple that he has given good reviews, I'm acquainted w/ a fellow that bought one about a year or so ago, he likes it very much. They cost about half what those other things cost. That FAL mag thing is attractive to me.

The DPMS/Armalite mags the others run on cost twice as much at least. I believe they are a little wder to accomodate the 175grn. long range load.

RockingRiver http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=254

Hang on the real experts will be along soon I'm sure.......

[Illurian00]

Found this :

http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,146717,00.html

It was LMT for the Brits :

http://www.defensereview.com/dr-phot...n-and-snipers/

[TOWS220]

The fore-end and the mags make it sound like the rock river arms lar-8.

The sr-25 (knights armament) is used under the designation of mk-11 and the newer m110 by our military.

I have no real experience with any 7.62mm AR, so I can't add anything else really.

[DYNOMIKE]

I spoke to Reed Knight a few weeks ago while he was in our store.. He talked about his rifles and the KNIGHT'S SR-25 is an awesome piece no doubt.... It is however very expensive and since it's built like a tank it's also very heavy..

The LAR is a R/R offering and is quite good with a VERY favorable price point.

The POF is another option (it's a Piston Gun) and quite nice.

The LMT is very nice as are a couple others..

LaRue Tactical OBR is another option.

Personally after MUCH consideration I selected the LaRue Tactical OBR.
For what I wanted it was easily the best choice and mine was spec'd & ordered back in Feb.. Even Reed Knight commented to me that the OBR is a great rifle and while he may like his better the price is also much more..

Received a call from LaRue just the other day to confirm my rifles specs. It's built now or almost so and it seems I will very soon be the proud owner of an OBR... I can hardly wait..


A couple links:
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-t...ifle-18-barrel

NO I aint a sniper but it would be tough to ignore the results posted here.
http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/show...er-Competition

[Insider]

I would go with a SIG 716, an LWRC, or a POF. Stick with the gas piston models.

[Douglas S Graham]

The LAR8 is RRA mfr. I have one, the standard operator. It is a beast, very heavy. It takes FAL mags, which is a no brainer for me. Haven't fired mine at the range yet, but check out AZ Duece's thread for range reports. Mine was 1350.00 IIRC. Very well made, and I am very pleased so far. FWIW.

[DYNOMIKE]

Originally Posted by Insider

I would go with a SIG 716, an LWRC, or a POF. Stick with the gas piston models.

There is no real benefit to the piston guns under most conditions and the consensus seems to be the D/I guns are more accurate..

The POF and LWRC guns are very nice however as is the SIG although we've only had one of these in the shop to date..

[MistWolf]

Originally Posted by Insider

I would go with a SIG 716, an LWRC, or a POF. Stick with the gas piston models.

The AR has a gas piston

[homelandprotector]

Rock River 308 AR's use Fal mags I think they are piston operated also.

[Right Side Up]

I would worry more about the barrel than the price of the mags.

Back when I was looking at getting a .308 AR style rifle I looked at the SR-25, but it had a hammer forged Remington barrel on it. Having spun up a few in my lathe to thread for muzzle brakes in the past, I decided they had cut way too big a corner for my tastes on the barrel.

I ended buying an new AR-10 that was a good deal, but not the caliber I wanted (.243), and bought a Kreiger cut rifled drop in barrel for it. I would do it the same way all over again.

I did put a Knights Armament 2 stage trigger in it. Best trigger I ever laid a finger over.

[DYNOMIKE]

I agree the Barrel is a BIG part of what makes an accurate rifle..
The OBR uses barrels that are LW-50 stainless steel.. LW-50 barrels seem to have a very good rep in a variety of applications where extreme accuracy & long service life are required/desired..

Another key element is the trigger, I think everyone knows that and appreciated a high quality trigger..
The OBR uses the very well know Geissele SSA Combat Trigger.

[V guy]

Remington supplied the barrels for the Knight SR25.

I have copy of SGN from 1998 and there is it--Knight SR25 offered for sale.
I look at the camo clad clone of the Knight SR25, the Remington SR25, also with Remington fluted bbl, and have to ponder.

I have handled a number of Armalite and DPMS versions lately, and do not like their heavy weight; they seem heavier than an FAL or G3.

The Remington SR25 seems to be better balanced and lighter, despite its 20" fluted bbl. I guess I have decided on the Remington, as if I need another 308.

[Deltaten]

Mail from him with links sez he's leaning towards the LMT package. He's the sort that'd sooner buy the whole schmagiggle than dick around w/bits'n'pieces. Dunno how THAT happened :wtf:
AT right around the $5k mark...thassa lotta "accessories" on top of a 2.5 grand rifle!! mg:

I don;t see the need for being "all that"; but it's his choice. I'll try ta steer him to the LAR; some due to specs and mostly due to mag availability/price. Seriously.... mebbe an eight or quarter MOA better for an extra grand+??? Add the fact that I can give him a ten pack of new mags (On hand) fer free vs the (?) $400 or so it would cost him to purcgase same quantity of a proprietary mag!. THe compatibility issue is big enuff for me to be the deal-sealer.

THe OBR *is* nice; but getting real close to the base price of the LMT.

I'd think that if he wants a "sniper", he'd be better off w/a Win 70 or Rem 700 AND an IMBEL on IMBEL "gift" as an MBR.

THanx for yer input

[Illurian00]

THe compatibility issue is big enuff for me to be the deal-sealer.

That is another issue w/ these 30&8 ARs'. Lack of compatibilty w/ major components. I blame Unkle Sugar for not standardizing the platform 'at the beginning'.
Still,,,I've got an LAR8 on my wish list.

[DK]

I've got the LMT and love it. It didn't cost anywhere near 5K though. What's he adding to the basic rifle? Tombstone Tactical lists them at $2370. Ive had mine for a bit but it was even less than that.

Mags aren't too bad... they use the same pattern mags as the SR25... they ship w/ Magpul P Mags. These can be had for less than $20 a pop.

DK

[fubar]

Originally Posted by DK

I've got the LMT and love it. It didn't cost anywhere near 5K though. What's he adding to the basic rifle? Tombstone Tactical lists them at $2370. Ive had mine for a bit but it was even less than that.

Mags aren't too bad... they use the same pattern mags as the SR25... they ship w/ Magpul P Mags. These can be had for less than $20 a pop.

DK

If I ever get the itch to buy a .308 AR, this is the route I'd go too.

Seems to work well for the Brits.

[DK]

The Kiwis too

DK

[Deltaten]

DK;
The package listed at the link to LMY sez/shows it has a Pelican hard-case, 8 mags and other acces. See here;
http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-wea...system.htmlAll but 5 K and NO scope!!!!!!!

Sorry..no sale! Base price of nearly of +/- 2.5 K !

That;s a nice FNFAL a thousnd rds AND a nice starter .308 bolt gun..and just to be equally fair.. no glass either

[DYNOMIKE]

THe OBR *is* nice; but getting real close to the base price of the LMT.

Great gun but I had not seen an LMT at or near the OBR price yet (accept on their website) and I wonder where you looked? Base price for the OBR is about $3K and one can expect to wait 5mo that is assuming my example is the norm..
Which BTW is pretty much exactly how long it took since I got my Tracking # TODAY..

I've got the LMT and love it. It didn't cost anywhere near 5K though. What's he adding to the basic rifle? Tombstone Tactical lists them at $2370. Ive had mine for a bit but it was even less than that.

This is more in line with the price point I've seen as well..

[Bladewurk]

I have the LMT MWS with the 18 inch 5R barrel (supposed to be Mike Rock) and so far am happy with it. ..First time out shot 2.5 inch 200 yard 5 shot group..Just getting used to it and little time.. off the bipod rapid fire..

[DK]

Originally Posted by Deltaten

DK;
The package listed at the link to LMY sez/shows it has a Pelican hard-case, 8 mags and other acces. See here;
http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-wea...system.htmlAll but 5 K and NO scope!!!!!!!

Sorry..no sale! Base price of nearly of +/- 2.5 K !

That;s a nice FNFAL a thousnd rds AND a nice starter .308 bolt gun..and just to be equally fair.. no glass either

The link doesn't work for me.. My LMT came w/ back up irons, rail panels, QD sling swivles, sling, tourqe wrench and 1 P mag. I don't know what accessories are offered in the package, but you can buy 4 more P Mags for $80 and I could live without a Pelican case. Maybe that would save enough for the glass and mount?

DK

[Bladewurk]

Originally Posted by DK

The link doesn't work for me.. My LMT came w/ back up irons, rail panels, QD sling swivles, sling, tourqe wrench and 1 P mag. I don't know what accessories are offered in the package, but you can buy 4 more P Mags for $80 and I could live without a Pelican case. Maybe that would save enough for the glass and mount?

DK

Yep mine was special ordered with the 18 inch Stainless 5R and came with all that above.. and was $3K.. but I was willing to pay more for the Rock barrel

[afroney]

Originally Posted by DYNOMIKE

There is no real benefit to the piston guns under most conditions and the consensus seems to be the D/I guns are more accurate..

The POF and LWRC guns are very nice however as is the SIG although we've only had one of these in the shop to date..

I own and extensively shoot both DI and piston ARs and can say that the piston guns are less picky about ammo and are easier to clean/require less maintence.

DI. 308 AR systems have always been reliability challenged, even more so than their. 223 counterparts. I would much prefer a piston AR. 308.

[DYNOMIKE]

I own and extensively shoot both DI and piston ARs and can say that the piston guns are less picky about ammo and are easier to clean/require less maintence.

While I might be inclined to agree that piston guns run cleaner the "less picky about ammo" comment is pure nonsense..

DI. 308 AR systems have always been reliability challenged, even more so than their. 223 counterparts.

MORE nonsense and I would like very much to see your actual facts supporting that claim??
You may not know this but LOTS of guys here actually shoot and have a vast amount of experience.. NEVER have heard such a claim from any of them nor anyone else and I call BS on the statement..

Piston guns address a non-problem as far as AR's go for most shooters and applications.. I have never had a failure of any kind I can/could attribute to a dirty gun and I also shoot "extensively".. Yea their neat and clean and the mag dump hold the bolt against your face thing is cool but my understanding is that aside from the cleaner running aspect as long as a DI gun is properly maintained one is no more or less reliable the the other..

And I stand by my comment that DI guns are more accurate than piston guns and that statement seems supported by many..

[Right Side Up]

I only have experience with my one AR-10, but it never had a problem with extrraction/feeding with the stock .243 barrel, and the 26" Kreiger is fine also.

As a matter of fact I added a Mallory metal weight to the inside of the carrier. I made the carrier too heavy to function, then I trimmed weight off it in my lathe a little at a time until it functioned fine again, and then took off a few more grams.

I was trying to keep the bolt locked up a little longer.

[afroney]

Originally Posted by DYNOMIKE

While I might be inclined to agree that piston guns run cleaner the "less picky about ammo" comment is pure nonsense..


MORE nonsense and I would like very much to see your actual facts supporting that claim??
You may not know this but LOTS of guys here actually shoot and have a vast amount of experience.. NEVER have heard such a claim from any of them nor anyone else and I call BS on the statement..

Piston guns address a non-problem as far as AR's go for most shooters and applications.. I have never had a failure of any kind I can/could attribute to a dirty gun and I also shoot "extensively".. Yea their neat and clean and the mag dump hold the bolt against your face thing is cool but my understanding is that aside from the cleaner running aspect as long as a DI gun is properly maintained one is no more or less reliable the the other..

And I stand by my comment that DI guns are more accurate than piston guns and that statement seems supported by many..

Less picky about ammo? Do you own both systems? Do you have any experience with AR piston systems? I do.

All of my DI AR's malfunction more frequently while shooting lowered powered ammo (like Wolf) than my AR piston systems. The only advantages I see to the DI AR is that its generally a little lighter, cheaper, and its parts are more interchangeable with other DI guns (at least in 5.56 models)

It also appears to be Larry Vickers's opinion as well (as taken from m4carbine.net). With as much experience and expertise as Larry has, I'll take his opinions as fact.

Piston AR's have their place- to determine if you need one ask yourself four questions;

1) Do I need a barrel length shorter than 14.5 inches
2) Do I need to run my gun suppressed a lot
3) Do I need to shoot a lot of full auto
4) Do I need to shoot a wide variety of ammo

Piston guns have been shown to be superior in those four categories over a DI gun. If you can say no to all four questions a good DI gun will do you fine


I'll also defer to Larry's experience with .308 DI systems on this one. I'd give the DI LMT .308 a chance though, since it has had glowing reviews. However, I'd still grab the SCAR-H if I could.:

No time with the OBR yet- since it is a DI .308, and they have been reliability challenged for a long time, my default response would be SCAR-H- at least until I get some time behind the LaRue to make an informed decision


As for accuracy - all of my AR15's, piston or not, are all at least MOA shooters. If there is a difference between the two systems, I sure as hell can't tell.

[homelandprotector]

Ammo would be prohibitive..........

But, check this baby out >> http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=61651

Your one shot solution.

[homelandprotector]

Originally Posted by Deltaten

Add the fact that I can give him a ten pack of new mags (On hand) fer free vs the (?) $400 or so it would cost him to purcgase same quantity of a proprietary mag!. THe compatibility issue is big enuff for me to be the deal-sealer.

THanx for yer input

Parts compatibility????? why not an M14?

They make plenty of accessory stuff that'll outclass any AR config, and have TOTAL parts config with all forces.

Just tryin to help That Sage stock is pretty awesome lookin.

http://www.desertwarriorproducts.com...14-Stocks.html

[afroney]

Originally Posted by homelandprotector

Parts compatibility????? why not an M14?

They make plenty of accessory stuff that'll outclass any AR config, and have TOTAL parts config with all forces.

Just tryin to help That Sage stock is pretty awesome lookin.

http://www.desertwarriorproducts.com...14-Stocks.html

That's real purdy....

[crcksht]

Originally Posted by afroney

[I]Piston AR's have their place- to determine if you need one ask yourself four questions;

1) Do I need a barrel length shorter than 14.5 inches
2) Do I need to run my gun suppressed a lot
3) Do I need to shoot a lot of full auto
4) Do I need to shoot a wide variety of ammo

Piston guns have been shown to be superior in those four categories over a DI gun. If you can say no to all four questions a good DI gun will do you fine

Your own criteria rules out probably 98% of users and 99.999% of civilian users.

Nobody really needs a barrel shorter than 14.5(unless you are a mall ninja).
Nobody really needs to run a suppressor a lot(unless you are LE or military).
Nobody really needs to shoot a lot of full auto(unless you are LE or military).

I don't think #4 holds much validity.

[DYNOMIKE]

Originally Posted by afroney

Less picky about ammo? Do you own both systems? Do you have any experience with AR piston systems? I do.

All of my DI AR's malfunction more frequently while shooting lowered powered ammo (like Wolf) than my AR piston systems. The only advantages I see to the DI AR is that its generally a little lighter, cheaper, and its parts are more interchangeable with other DI guns (at least in 5.56 models)

It also appears to be Larry Vickers's opinion as well (as taken from m4carbine.net). With as much experience and expertise as Larry has, I'll take his opinions as fact.

Piston AR's have their place- to determine if you need one ask yourself four questions;

1) Do I need a barrel length shorter than 14.5 inches
2) Do I need to run my gun suppressed a lot
3) Do I need to shoot a lot of full auto
4) Do I need to shoot a wide variety of ammo

Piston guns have been shown to be superior in those four categories over a DI gun. If you can say no to all four questions a good DI gun will do you fine


I'll also defer to Larry's experience with .308 DI systems on this one. I'd give the DI LMT .308 a chance though, since it has had glowing reviews. However, I'd still grab the SCAR-H if I could.:

No time with the OBR yet- since it is a DI .308, and they have been reliability challenged for a long time, my default response would be SCAR-H- at least until I get some time behind the LaRue to make an informed decision


As for accuracy - all of my AR15's, piston or not, are all at least MOA shooters. If there is a difference between the two systems, I sure as hell can't tell.

Well I (briefly) considered a lengthy retort, BUT decided I aint in the mood..

Soooo for now all you get is a Blah Blah Blah.....
Your list of 4 criteria is nothing but more nonsense with diff words and I stand by my comments that whether real or perceived "for most" there is no need for a Piston AR..

As to what I own or have experience with I might suggest you stick around for a bit and see for yourself. I regularly post PICS of things I own and while I don't own a Piston AR I "DO" have enough experience with them to formulate an opinion W/OUT the readings/teachings of The Great L. Vickers..

As to the OBR, I might suggest you do a bit of homework on your own.. LaRue did this rifle right and they have a very respectable following with folks that know how to shoot some...
Soon a I get good weather and my optic I'll be sure to share my "personal" experiences with my new OBR, but I fully expect to be impressed..

As to my FALL BACK 7.62 rifle, I don't need (or want) a SCAR as I am plumb covered up with FAL's, own Two M1A's and now an OBR..

The SCAR is a very nice rifle but I said from my very first post (re: the SCAR)way back when that I had issues with the reciprocating charging handle, the flimsy stock joint, and the bad triggers..
Imagine my surprise when the only real complaints I have ever heard about the SCAR (from those actually using them in hostile environments) are the trigger sux, the stock joint sux, and the recipro handle can/has caused malfs in tight quarters..

[splogan]

The Stock on that M14 is not a sage it is a VLTOR. The sage is all aluminum. i have pondered the VLTOR but a hard pill to swallow at 500 for a modified GI stock.

[bob_e95482]

This is my DPMS pattern LR308. The 18" CrMoly freefloated barreled upper was $750. The Tactical Machining 80% lower was $200(I already have the machining jig). The Geisselle SSA trigger was $180. I used a DPMS LPK, about $60. I already had a CA. compliant Raddlock bullet button. I used Burris med. rings, a Caldwell bipod, and a Leupold VX-L scope($750, Alumina covers, $100). This rifle is only an inch longer than the M4gery in the foreground.