6th Annual Oregon FAL Shoot OFFICIAL DEBRIEF

[brunop]

List your suggestions, gripes, atta-boys, and general observations here.

[4x401]

Next year it is imparative that we contact the local authority having jurisdiction of the area to Help BLOCK the East access road.

[snowhawk jockey]

Originally Posted by 4x401

Next year it is imparative that we contact the local authority having jurisdiction of the area to Help BLOCK the East access road.

+1



This is where I say thanks to all the donors that send me checks in the mail, which paid for the preparations enjoyed by all.
4x401 plates of steel, Tailback's wok under the awning, the Shootin' Chef's smoken' meat and of course our very own rolling green throne room. There was just enough left, after the donations were shared, to give Dom a bill for his next load of truck fuel, going home.

Can't imagine what it would have been like without the amazing background music of the beltfeds.

The pistol class work was an excellent time and I had fun with the stages. I skipped the middle stage to run an errand and
loved the three gun stage.

The MC, Brunop needs his own mention

[brunop]

Been thinking a bunch about it. Here are my observations:

1. I liked the delayed start Saturday morning given the weather. This is 'substantiated' (sorta) by the lack of participation we had on the TOTALLY BITCHIN' handgun and 3-gun event on Friday while it was raining. I would do this again.

2. I did NOT like the delayed delayed start Saturday morning for sight-in. We posted over and over that people should bring zeroed rifles. Now, that being said, we (meaning "I") did not have a good place for people to sight-in on their own, so I was trying to help as fast as I could for a couple of people to get a zero. And the truth is, I like helping people get on target - this is a friendly shoot, not a high-zoot competition. I would NOT do this again - but I would solve it another way.

3. I did NOT like the target visibility level when the sun went above (and then behind) the targets in the afternoon. We painted very regularly, and I could see them well enough, but we had several guys who just couldn't see/find the targets. I would get an earlier start (if possible) so that all shooters in one event shot it in the morning - under the same (roughly) light. Then, after lunch, all shooters shot the next event in roughly the same conditions again.

4. I did like the Drop 10 event (as always). I would do this again.

5. I did NOT like the distance we put the targets at. 8" round at 250 yards is 3MOA, which not everybody can hit. We were okay with that, and we said it in the FAL Shoot thread. But add in the gusting wind and the rain, and it made the problem even harder to solve. I would do this at 100 and 200.

6. I enjoyed the pistol 'qualification' that Tat2 put on. I've done some of that stuff, but the coaching was top-notch, and even some old dogs learned some new tricks. Excellent. I would do this again. Not the same 'intro' discussion next year, but definitely some clinic or coaching by Tat2 before the pistol events begin.

7. I liked the variety of events in the pistol arena. Qual, Speed Steel, and 3-gun. Loved it. I would do this again.

8. I liked the 3 gun match. Did I already say that? Outstanding. And thanks, Tat2, for providing the shotgun and the ammo! 3 Gun again!!

9. I loved the food. Period. End of story. I even got all the ABTs and ribs I wanted, which I was not expecting.

10. I hate the rain, but if rain has to come, I'd choose it just like we got it - and I LOVED the Saturday afternoon 'break' for dinner and campfire. Perfect.



So next year:

a) Set up a sight-in range that is independent of the belt-fed/plinking area AND is independent of the rifle range. This should probably be 'manned' by volunteer R.O.s with radio contact to the rifle range and the Belt Fed Area. I would use this, too, as there are always new builds and newly fixed, dropped, banged on, re-assembled, or purchased rifles.

b) Set up sight-in range on Thursday. Let people shoot Thursday afternoon and all day Friday to sight in.

c) Friday handgun is perfect, and I love that people keep shooting handgun all weekend long for practice and for coaching. I'd like to start rifles on Friday afternoon next year - and roll the first (early) handgun shooters into at least one Friday slot so we can get more time in.

d) I think that a few of us volunteer ROs are going to shoot on Friday next year. Maybe in the morning before the mid-morning handgun start?

e) We are going to do a Drop 10 next year again. I suggest that we do them at 100 and 200. I also suggest we do a mandatory mag change like we did a couple of years ago. Not a 2 round change (hat tip to Garand shooters), but more like 5 rounds to empty, then a reload. That gives 13 rounds to Garand guys on 10 targets, and if you miss more than three times, you weren't going to win it anyway? Thoughts appreciated.

f) I like the idea of high power. I'd like to do it next year. Maybe this is a Friday evening event - kinda like the King Shot on Saturday evening. If you want to participate, you make it a priority. If you're not that excited about it, great!! Don't shoot it - go drink some beer earlier than the high power shooters.

g) I like the gongs, but I'm wondering if the 8" re-setters are just too small for some sets of eyes. Those targets may be better for Precision Rifle or something like that, so instead...

h) I suggest we steal mercilessly from our FAL Files brethren in PA and SC for two new contests...

i) the '3 Clay Challenge' at 50 yards. Go look up rowjimmy's thread in the Competitive Shooting sub-forum, and

j) the Moses Special, which is 8 steel targets measuring 8" x 13" at 200 yards. This will allow us Westerners to practice and compare with Moses' matches, Stimpy's match (sometimes), and FAL Fest - all of which use the 8" x 13" rectangle at 200. I am looking at getting the steel in the coming months. Should be cheaper than a lot of other options.



In the end, if we start on Friday, get rid of the R.O.s (Snowhawk Jockey, 4x401, Pluskat, myself, and maybe the Saturday shootin' chefs like sportsnut and Jason) by shooting Friday (Tailback and PSL54Junkie MUST be kept busy cooking on Friday afternoon ), AND if we actually start on time, we could actually get through more than a couple events.

Your comments are welcome and needed and appreciated.

[Tuscan Raider]

The pistol stuff was spot on, but individual instruction PER shooter was a hindrance and time consumer. I kept looking over at poppers standing patiently Friday waiting to be knocked over for time. This could have been done while itching for top notch instruction by one of the best pistol shooters on the West coast.We all can't afford Benelli M2's, so 3 gun might be a moot event in our group, for now.


I would like to throw in that the moto cyclists took at least an hour away from us. We might consider both the emma gees and rifles be at the same point shooting N. next year. This line had great range and good backdrop.
Little far from current camp but doable.

8"x 13" at 200yds, bring it.

We need a plinkin' year.

[Tailback]

My .02

It all rocked.

Oregon is Oregon. The weather is what it is. As we said in the Army, "It's just a thing".

TAT2's pistol class rocked. As my friend Ray said, "I'd have paid lots of money to get that good of coaching." He's right.

TAT2 put lots of time into the 3 gun and everyone raved about it. I hope the 3 gun sticks as far as events go. (I know, didn't shoot it, my bad, don't hate on me, I was cooking)

The drop 10 was a tough match. Brunop is on the right track with reducing the distances. I would suggest 100 and 150. If anybody thinks we weren't shooting well, I got a big ass invitation to try their hands under the same conditions. Shooting match grade 30.06 155gr HPBT handloads I was getting lateral spread of over 30 inches at 250 yards.

Otis Jr's expression after firing that first burst on the ma duece was worth the trip hands down. He'll have some stories to tell his friends at school.

[Pluskat]

I've been to all 6....this one was by far the best!

I'll start with the most important....

I must say to the following...Sportsnut, his buddy Jason(so we know which Jason), PSL, Tuscan and Tailback.....I am very humbled and touched by your efforts to not only tolerate my food 'preferences', but to go out of your way to accommodate them. Sportsnut and Jason did chicken, when everyone would have been blown away (again) by just the fatty's and ribs. PSL not only does some turkey bacon abt's, but does them on a SEPARATE GRILL so I don't deal with the pork on the same cooking surface! Tuscan goes out and buys me a T-bone steak and cooks it for me for breakfast so I'm not left out. And Tailback makes sure I'm comfortable with knowledge of the non-oyster sauce in his bad-ass stir fry.

I want to thank you guys sincerely. I am touched by your display of respect for my 'choices'. (there's apparently some dust in my eyes while I type this)

Brush511 even walked into the 'dining area' carrying that pot of beans, sets it down, walks over to me and says "next year I'm doing a pork-free version".

I don't rate this level of consideration, but then again...maybe somehow y'all aren't doing it for ME.....and don't even know it?

I want to thank Black Elk, PSL, Tailback, Sparky and whoever else stood there and showed genuine interest in my convictions. I enjoyed that conversation immensely and I hope I didn't come across as 'preachy'.

Erik and Karl, you guys have inspired me. I commit to there being..."less of me" by Oregon Fal Shoot #7.

Tat2, thanks so much for the instruction. It was great to see it immediately vindicated when my 2nd and 3rd runs went faster using the 'new' pistol hold.
(I'll practice using your instruction and smoke you on the steel NEXT year, mmmkay?)

Jeff and Rich...you guys put on a great show this year! Thanks for all your efforts.

Snowhawk, thanks for the dirt riding tips. I've got a long way to go to even be 'comfortable' off the pavement but I'll get there. FYI- when I reached the caution tape out on the road leading up to the final turnoff into camp, rather than spend 20mins taking it down and putting it back up, I said 'screw it' and blasted up the embankment and busted through about 75ft of turn signal-high brush to come out on the other side. (I fully expected to drop the bike but it went well and I've got some nice brush scratches on my forks to prove it)

Black Elk, thanks for looking past the Adam Henry I wear as a costume.

Dave, it was good to see you again Old Man! (you're looking younger rather than older....no sh_t)

Otis, your son is squared aWAY! He saw me riding out of camp and ran over to warn me that the King Shot was in progress. That young man looked me straight in the eye when I told him it was good to meet him and when he shook my hand. You are doing well through him and he will be an asset to society when so many young men his age are jacked up just outta the gate! Good work sir!

There were others present I didn't get to/take the time to meet/talk to......my loss.

I'll end my say this way....If something ever happens to me, it would be good to know, and I'd be honored to have....you bunch of folks rally around my wife and kids.

FWIW

[sportsnut]

Anytime Marlin !

[PSL54Junkie]

[QUOTE=Pluskat;3377305]I've been to all 6....this one was by far the best!
.



I don't rate this level of consideration, but then again...maybe somehow y'all aren't doing it for ME.....and don't even know it?

I want to thank Black Elk, PSL, Tailback, Sparky and whoever else stood there and showed genuine interest in my convictions. I enjoyed that conversation immensely and I hope I didn't come across as 'preachy'.



Pluskat

Yes you do rate for that level of consideration,
I also enjoyed our conversation. It made me think about my own relation with Christ and all the areas that I am lacking in.( A little conviction is good for the soul)

This year was the best so far, I did everything that I showed up to do and also did a little shooting as a bonus. I was thinking after the woodshop gets put back together I might see what I can come up with for a first place plaque for next year. Once again I had a great time hangin with everyone at the Oregon FAL FEST.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

Tat2, thanks so much for the instruction. It was great to see it immediately vindicated when my 2nd and 3rd runs went faster using the 'new' pistol hold.
(I'll practice using your instruction and smoke you on the steel NEXT year, mmmkay?)

I hope you do bro!! Glad to help and thanks for being open to the changes!

T

[ALL FAL]

Hey Pluskat, was a pleasure to see you again too, as others have said, "the best shoot yet" I was not much help this year and am hoping that I won't be restricted for next year, (dang house remodel will be done) and maybe be of good help the next shoot.

FAL FEST?? HECK YES!!! Thanks to ALL for the great time.

[otis61]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

Otis, your son is squared aWAY! He saw me riding out of camp and ran over to warn me that the King Shot was in progress. That young man looked me straight in the eye when I told him it was good to meet him and when he shook my hand. You are doing well through him and he will be an asset to society when so many young men his age are jacked up just outta the gate! Good work sir!

There were others present I didn't get to/take the time to meet/talk to......my loss.

I'll end my say this way....If something ever happens to me, it would be good to know, and I'd be honored to have....you bunch of folks rally around my wife and kids.

FWIW

Thank you so much Pluskat. Thats very nice of you to say. This means a lot to me.

[4x401]

[QUOTE=Pluskat;3377305]I'll end my say this way....If something ever happens to me, it would be good to know, and I'd be honored to have....you bunch of folks rally around my wife and kids./QUOTE]

Done brother.
All I would ask is the same in return.

[Black Elk]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

...
Black Elk, thanks for looking past the Adam Henry I wear as a costume.
...

Brother even though I fail every day I am still an avid Follower of The Way and I attempt to do what God would have me do. You are Top Shelf Marlin and FWIW I've got your back. I don't fall into line 100% with your choice of Old Testament Lifestyle but I can't fault you for it and I see it as akin to Romans 14 and we each live on opposite sides of that while remaining Brothers in the Lord.

Eternal Life begins not at the moment of your death but rather when you accept Jesus as your personal Savior so anyone claiming Him should try to live like it..

[Pluskat]

Originally Posted by Black Elk

.....FWIW I've got your back.

Thanks bud....I'll say this....it sure does seem like we're rocketing towards a time in history where that's gonna mean a whole lot more than it does right now. For those of us that put any value on individual liberty, the walls are closing in on our being able to.......continue to stand by.

[4x401]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

Thanks bud....I'll say this....it sure does seem like we're rocketing towards a time in history where that's gonna mean a whole lot more than it does right now. For those of us that put any value on individual liberty, the walls are closing in on our being able to.......continue to stand by.

Now thats the gospel right there. Silly times we be in right now.

BTW Pluskat,
I never got any CZ love......
I saw it hang'in there a couple times and though about grabbing it..
I decided I'd have more fun Not hemorrhaging from both ears all weekend.

[Pluskat]

Man...that pistol would've been in your hand as quick as you axe'd me for it. I forgot that you wanted some time with it.

[brunop]

I'll keep saying what I've always been saying - good fun, great group of guys. I look forward to this event all year. I can't believe how much I've been checking in on these Oregon threads since after the shoot...

I don't want to wind down the love fest, but I'm going to take advantage of the heavy traffic here right now and ask a couple of questions for the 'Debrief' part of this thread:

1) If we do pistol in the late morning again, are most people cool with doing some (one?) rifle events on Friday evening?

2) Is everyone cool with 'standardizing' a couple of events, and then going with something 'new' if we can think it up? Standardization suggestions are:

a) Drop 10 on the USA Poppers (same as always). Probably with one mag change required, which would help even out the Garand guys to the FAL guys, since the Garand shooters have to make one anyway. 5 at 100, and 5 at 200 (that's a 4MOA hold, which most guys can do, and all should 'aspire' to...), and

b) Drop 8 on 8"x13" rectangular plates at 200. This is a FAL Files and other 'Military Rifle' shoot standard across the nation (FAL Fest, Moses' Military Matches, and sometimes Stimpy's iirc), and finally...

3) This has been an issue in the past, and now it is coming up again. Because of older eyes, and the focal length issue, we are having guys that can't see a target in the sagebrush AND see the front sight of their rifle. I suggest that from now on we let red-dots be in the same class as iron sights in the MBR and MGR classes - no magnification - just a different aiming solution (in one focal plane). Optics would be scopes, ACOGs, or any other magnification device in front of a dot or a reticle.

I'm not 'wedded' to the idea, but it seems like the advantage of Optics is in the magnification + fine aiming point. If we are taking magnification out of the picture, it could be a big deal to the guys whose eyes are doing what all eyes do sooner or later - without giving that much of an advantage (or any) to them.

I would suggest NOT allowing red dots in some Classes - like Mil Surp Bolt Gun for example. Those pieces of history should be shot like they are.


Your thoughts please...

[4x401]

Originally Posted by brunop

I'll keep saying what I've always been saying - good fun, great group of guys. I look forward to this event all year. I can't believe how much I've been checking in on these Oregon threads since after the shoot...

I don't want to wind down the love fest, but I'm going to take advantage of the heavy traffic here right now and ask a couple of questions for the 'Debrief' part of this thread:

1) If we do pistol in the late morning again, are most people cool with doing some (one?) rifle events on Friday evening?

2) Is everyone cool with 'standardizing' a couple of events, and then going with something 'new' if we can think it up? Standardization suggestions are:

a) Drop 10 on the USA Poppers (same as always). Probably with one mag change required, which would help even out the Garand guys to the FAL guys, since the Garand shooters have to make one anyway. 5 at 100, and 5 at 200 (that's a 4MOA hold, which most guys can do, and all should 'aspire' to...), and

b) Drop 8 on 8"x13" rectangular plates at 200. This is a FAL Files and other 'Military Rifle' shoot standard across the nation (FAL Fest, Moses' Military Matches, and sometimes Stimpy's iirc), and finally...

3) This has been an issue in the past, and now it is coming up again. Because of older eyes, and the focal length issue, we are having guys that can't see a target in the sagebrush AND see the front sight of their rifle. I suggest that from now on we let red-dots be in the same class as iron sights in the MBR and MGR classes - no magnification - just a different aiming solution (in one focal plane). Optics would be scopes, ACOGs, or any other magnification device in front of a dot or a reticle.

I'm not 'wedded' to the idea, but it seems like the advantage of Optics is in the magnification + fine aiming point. If we are taking magnification out of the picture, it could be a big deal to the guys whose eyes are doing what all eyes do sooner or later - without giving that much of an advantage (or any) to them.

I would suggest NOT allowing red dots in some Classes - like Mil Surp Bolt Gun for example. Those pieces of history should be shot like they are.


Your thoughts please...

To answer your Q's in order;

1) Yes

2a) Yes.
Standardize the D-10 at 100 & 200. Those ranges are easily obtainable with a Fal....And some practice.

2b) Are these 8"x13" targets going to set up as gongs, swingers, or poppers? I'm game either way, just want to know so I can keep an eye out for build steel.

3) I'm not oppossed to letting dot scopes into the MBR, MGR classes. That said, I still believe they are an a distinct advantage over standard irons....Good eye's or not.

Id like to add.

We had a damn fine showing for the King Shot IMHO. I think it had alot to do with the prominent aiming point on the target (please hold your applause) .

I believe the King Shot should stay irons

[brunop]

4x401 -

I had it in my head that I was going to buy some AR500 in 8x13" rectangles. This is small and cheap (ish). I was thinking about asking you to help me and the gang out by welding a 2x2" foot on the bottom.

Then I want a 3x3" (or so) plate welded to the top of some hefty rebar that is 30" long. Then we walk out in the desert at 200 and pound those 30" pieces of rebar into the dirt, and set a plate up on top.

This has the advantage of lifting the targets up above the sagebrush, being cheap, easy to transport, easy to set up, and easy to score (they are knocked down off the stand, or it wasn't a hit).

We will have to reset, but we're doing that anyway.


I agree we should leave the King Shot as irons - there is a big target at 100 only, so it is shootable.

I don't care if we allow red dots into MBR and MGR or not - I always liked Stimpy's simple rules: either it's irons or it's optics. You choose what you want to do. Maybe we shouldn't clutter the thing with my 'rules bending', and should just let the guys whose eyes are getting older (I'm on my way) shoot optics in Unlimited - but you know that there is a big difference between an AR10 in .260 Remington with a comp/silencer and a scope (a true unlimited gun) and a stock FAL with a scope.

Do we go with more classes so people can shoot what they want without being 'forced' into a competition that they aren't that keen about in the first place? We could keep the same four 'Classes', and make a sub-group in the first two:

MBR with a) Irons, or b) Optics
MGR with a) Irons, or b) Optics
Unlimited - it's unlimited, so you do what you want (no sub-group)
Karate Rifelz


I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you don't want an Arms Race (gear race), you have to make classes that keep it in its place. If we make all optics on stock-ish rifles have to "play" in the Unlimited category, it isn't going to be long before someone brings a silenced .260 Rem in an AR, which won't be very fair to the guys shooting an FAL with a 4x scope so they can see the target.

I actually like this solution, because it would leave the red dots in the 'Optics' category - which is where they really belong.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

I'll keep saying what I've always been saying - good fun, great group of guys. I look forward to this event all year. I can't believe how much I've been checking in on these Oregon threads since after the shoot...

I don't want to wind down the love fest, but I'm going to take advantage of the heavy traffic here right now and ask a couple of questions for the 'Debrief' part of this thread:

1) If we do pistol in the late morning again, are most people cool with doing some (one?) rifle events on Friday evening?

2) Is everyone cool with 'standardizing' a couple of events, and then going with something 'new' if we can think it up? Standardization suggestions are:

a) Drop 10 on the USA Poppers (same as always). Probably with one mag change required, which would help even out the Garand guys to the FAL guys, since the Garand shooters have to make one anyway. 5 at 100, and 5 at 200 (that's a 4MOA hold, which most guys can do, and all should 'aspire' to...), and

b) Drop 8 on 8"x13" rectangular plates at 200. This is a FAL Files and other 'Military Rifle' shoot standard across the nation (FAL Fest, Moses' Military Matches, and sometimes Stimpy's iirc), and finally...

3) This has been an issue in the past, and now it is coming up again. Because of older eyes, and the focal length issue, we are having guys that can't see a target in the sagebrush AND see the front sight of their rifle. I suggest that from now on we let red-dots be in the same class as iron sights in the MBR and MGR classes - no magnification - just a different aiming solution (in one focal plane). Optics would be scopes, ACOGs, or any other magnification device in front of a dot or a reticle.

I'm not 'wedded' to the idea, but it seems like the advantage of Optics is in the magnification + fine aiming point. If we are taking magnification out of the picture, it could be a big deal to the guys whose eyes are doing what all eyes do sooner or later - without giving that much of an advantage (or any) to them.

I would suggest NOT allowing red dots in some Classes - like Mil Surp Bolt Gun for example. Those pieces of history should be shot like they are.


Your thoughts please...

1. Yes! I could run noobs thru a quick "class" like this year and Brunop
and Rich could run the rest thru the stages and be done early...easy

2. Yes!

a. Yes

b. Yes

3. Maybe.... I am getting there with the eyes too! USPSA did this recently
and it basically eliminated the iron sight category. Its "Limited" division
either irons or a red dot and now 90% run a red dot. Its not as good as
having a scope.... but its hands down easier than irons. Not sure yet??

It is no where near an advantage at distances past 100 on a 8" plate.
Guys in my matches have huge numbers of misses at 200-250 with a dot

T

[4x401]

My welding sevices are always free for this group. Give me the material and a drawing.....I`ll get it done.

[4x401]

Originally Posted by Tat2

It is no where near an advantage at distances past 100 on a 8" plate.
Guys in my matches have huge numbers of misses at 200-250 with a dot

T

Now thats an interesting observation T, and honestly surprises the crap out of me.

[sportsnut]

I nailed all ten with open sights, but couldn't hit shit with the Eotech at 250 yds.

[brunop]

Yeah, but is that because the aiming point was less useful, or because the EoTech needed to be sighted in? Or lost its zero?

I'm not supporting either way - in fact, I'm thinking that it might be better to do the sub-group thing I was posting earlier:

MBR
MGR
Unlimited
Mil-Surp

but in MBR and MGR we call out Irons as one group, and Optics as another group.


Another option is to leave it just like it was this year, and encourage people to migrate to Unlimited? The problem with that is that FALs with scopes shooting against comped 6.5 Grendel ARs is going to make "Unlimited" less attractive.

We could kill "Unlimited", and just call it .308 and .30-'06 MBRs with scopes? So it would look like this:

MBR Irons
MBR Optics
MGR Irons
MGR Optics
Milsurp Bolt Gun

for a total of five categories instead of four.

I'm not trying to over-think this. I'm trying to answer some of the comments and suggestions I got from people within our group on the weekend of the shoot.

[sportsnut]

[QUOTE=brunop;3379150]Yeah, but is that because the aiming point was less useful, or because the EoTech needed to be sighted in? Or lost its zero?



Yeah it was dead nuts at 125yds, but I hadn't tried it at 250yds.




EDIT: I'm inclined to go with operator error on this one.

[Black Elk]

I'm betting I have the worst eyes at this competition and I will say it is NOT easy but I manage most of the time, add to that my very weak body with poor health and I can say I have earned the right to speak for all those who would complain about "anything" at the FAL Fests:

• Most people's problem with 'hits' is lack of practice and or sighting in.

• Other people do not truly utilize concentration and sight picture either due to lack of knowledge/understanding or they are just plain too lazy to do it: the first can be taught the later is on them.

• There are "enhancements" available for iron sights which would leave you in that category yet give you a better sight picture should you care enough to utilize one.

I am more proud of myself for any competition which I place along side those with good eyes and strong bodies because I know I went through more to get there and all things being equal I would have cleaned house..

I would love to use an *cough- properly sighted and practiced EoTech* but I wont use my eyes as an excuse for poor performance. Maybe once everyone decides to step up and improve themselves then I will complain about my eyes but for now as long as I'm in the running its all good.

ETA: my problem this year was sight picture as I broke my Iron Crosshair front post just prior to the event and had to go perform a hasty stock install and sight in then was unable to get my preferred sight picture. One day I will draw a picture of what I see so you can understand but for now suffice to say if you don't have major cataracts or are legally blind then my eyes are worse than yours and I can make a showing every year..

[otis61]

I would go with whatever, but I'm personally not crazy about red dots being in the MBR class. Let just keep it simple.

I liked the way it was this year. I didn't really see anyone with a fullblown unlimited.

[Pluskat]

.....can we resume the love-fest now?

[4x401]

Yes, please!

My palms have been sweating ALL day!

[brunop]

The funny thing is that that comment is not a thread-kill on this sub-forum.

[brunop]

Probably go with what Otis61 said - just leave it the way it is for now.

I love you, Pluskat...

[Pluskat]

Originally Posted by brunop

I love you, Pluskat...

Since you're kinda asking for folks to 'vote'....I vote everyone says that at the end of EVERY post...in fact....let's just all switch your sig lines to it....mmmmKAY?

[otis61]

Originally Posted by otis61

I didn't really see anyone with a fullblown unlimited.

I forgot about Jeffs Green Meanie.

[Pluskat]

I skipped out on the competition this year, but that will NOT happen next year. I wanted to ride the new MC over there and I've done it, so the 7th Oregon Fal Shoot will for me, be about the shooting and the camping/camaraderie. I'll shoot whatever brunop and 4x401 and Tat2 come up with....they have shown they will NOT let us down event-wise. The cool thing about this weekend every year is a guy can make it about the shooting, the camping, the whatever or....a combination of all.

I'd vote we listen to the insight in Black Elk's earlier post (did I just say that?). I like the simplicity of irons/optics but I'll go with whatever the group settles on. I'll say this though....to me, there's a world of difference/advantage in having the precise aiming point provided by a red dot/EOtech etc., even without magnification, and the sight picture of a rifle with irons. I just don't see them in the same category.

FWIW

[brunop]

Yep - I'm hearing a lot of people say that. And since this isn't arf.com, and since the FAL shoot has lots of FALs attending, it would be kinda uncool to start putting red dots on them for all the categories.

I still like the idea of killing "Unlimited" and any rifle that would show up for that class: we could kill all the 6.5mm ARs (right - I didn't see any either...) and other stuff like it in favor of:

MBR irons (very nearly stock)
MBR optics (and other goodies)
MGR irons (stock - same as above)
MGR optics (comps, etc. - same as above)
Karate Rifelz (stock)

We could say that MBR was .30 cal (minimum) in a military cartridge (.30-'06, .308, 7.62x39, 7.62x54) - you know, to go with the 'B' in MBR...

We could say that MGR was .22 cal in a military cartridge (5.56x45 and 5.45x39) - no 6mm or .264 FALs (they're out there), no 6.5mm ARs or whatever. Just plain old .223 like we're actually Americans. Or Russians...

The 'Unlimited' thing was supposed to be a catch-all, but I'm not that excited to hold a class that could see a $3,200 Noveske in .260 Rem, a silencer, and a scope. The FALs, PSLs, and HKs with scopes will compete still, but the guy driving that gun starts with a serious advantage. Great rifles, to be sure. I'm happy people own them, and I'd love to own one, too. I just don't want the Oregon FAL Shoot to turn into that race - I'd rather keep it like it is.

Stimpy has FALs with Irons, which rifles have to be stock or darn-near it, and he has FALs with Optics, which rifles can have comps and other stuff. I like the way he does that. We can apply the same idea to all the various rifles that people shoot at our event.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by 4x401

Now thats an interesting observation T, and honestly surprises the crap out of me.

Well its because you are trying to kill an 8" plate at 250 with a 4 MOA dot. Even with a "hard hold" the dot is bigger that the target.....you will have misses.

T

[Tat2]

I personally have no problem with irons in the MBR class.... But it is the FAL
Shoot and I would kinda like to see this turn into a FAL only Class with irons.... ??

T

[Pluskat]

Two things....

First- When I 'voted' to have folks add something to their sig lines....it wasn't a "vote" in the traditional sense of the word. A 'vote' is more or less a statement made by someone in a given group who attempts to influence the minds/wills of the other group members to follow or adopt the 'preference' or 'desire' of the one voting.

Let me be clear....when I state that 'I vote'....it should be taken as more of a 'directive' for all here. My 'preference' or 'desire' is really not up for a 'vote'....it just needs to be.

To that end, I want to express both my appreciation for the compliance displayed by one...'brunop' and, at the same time, express my DISpleasure in the REST of you for your failing to IMMEDIATELY make the stated 'addition'.

Second- Tat2...I'd like to see something incorporated into your pistol stuff that would allow me to run my Cz with the .22 conversion. I'm going to be even LESS 'wealthy' by next year's shoot and I can hear the 'hits' on the steel just fine with the smaller caliber rounds.
(and again....do I really need to explain here that the preceding was not so much a 'request' as a.....)

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by Pluskat

Second- Tat2...I'd like to see something incorporated into your pistol stuff that would allow me to run my Cz with the .22 conversion. I'm going to be even LESS 'wealthy' by next year's shoot and I can hear the 'hits' on the steel just fine with the smaller caliber rounds.
(and again....do I really need to explain here that the preceding was not so much a 'request' as a.....)

Done deal dude.... .22 Steel Challenge. Its very popular and easy to add.
Its also always done from the low-ready. I hope everyone will consider bringing
a basic iron-sighted .22 pistol next year.

T

[4x401]

Originally Posted by Tat2

Done deal dude.... .22 Steel Challenge. Its very popular and easy to add.
Its also always done from the low-ready. I hope everyone will consider bringing
a basic iron-sighted .22 pistol next year.

T

T-

A .22 Steel challenge sounds great!!

I'll have 2 new .22 target racks built next year. Each will have 4 targets. One has evil clown targets, the other zombies. The targets are approx. 4" wide x 8" tall. Maybe you can work these into your gig.

ETA,

I love you Justin......

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by 4x401

T-

A .22 Steel challenge sounds great!!

I'll have 2 new .22 target racks built next year. Each will have 4 targets. One has evil clown targets, the other zombies. The targets are approx. 4" wide x 8" tall. Maybe you can work these into your gig.

ETA,

I love you Justin......

Yeah I think everyone can appreciate the fun/economy of a .22 pistol event!

T

[4x401]

Originally Posted by Tat2

Yeah I think everyone can appreciate the fun/economy of a .22 pistol event!

T

Your first post was funnier.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by 4x401

Your first post was funnier.

LOL.....saw that did ya!

T

[brunop]

It is the FAL Shoot, but I don't want to discourage people who want to shoot Garands or G3/CETMEs or M1As.

I officially propose the idea from my previous post, wherein we get rid of Unlimited, and introduce Optics:

MBR Irons .30 caliber (stock)
MBR Optics .30 caliber (w/ enhancements)
MGR Irons .22 caliber (stock)
MGR Optics .22 caliber (w/ enhancements)
Karate Riflez


I think this is the best way to encourage stock FAL shooting if you have the eyes for it. And if you don't, you can do FAL with scope - without having to compete against race guns in the future.

Same for MGR - irons and stock, or optics, comps, etc - but only in .223 or 5.45x39mm

[4x401]

Originally Posted by Tat2

LOL.....saw that did ya!

T

Saw it I did.
LOL'erd I did.

[4x401]

Originally Posted by brunop

Same for MGR - irons and stock, or optics, comps, etc - but only in .223 or 5.45x39mm

I agree with everything you said, but you lost me with this sentence?

IMHO, I don't want this gig to become an "Equipment race" either. So don't open That door and it won't.

At this point, we are struggling just to complete the classes on tap now.
I say we completely dump any kind of "Unlimited" catagory and keep it simple.

I see alot of people loosing interest because we haven't "Yet" streamlined our system. This year our problems came from weather and bikers.
Next year the road HAS to be blocked, and our firing point COVERED so the show can go on without any delays.

This is a work in progress.

[Tailback]

Originally Posted by Tat2

I personally have no problem with irons in the MBR class.... But it is the FAL
Shoot and I would kinda like to see this turn into a FAL only Class with irons.... ??

T

I'm cool with a FAL only with irons class. It will motivate me to FINALLY dial in my FAL that's been mostly sitting in the safe since 2008.

(Edit) Actually, if the rifle has to be mostly stock, I'd like to still be able to shoot my Garand in the Irons category, and I'll use the FAL in the Optics category. I'd like to see a mandatory mag/clip change for the events after either five or eight rounds. Preferably 8 rounds since that makes it even across the board in the .30 cal category.

[brunop]

That is the crappiest sig line in the whole world. For real.




4x401 - exactly: dump Unlimited, standardize the shooting events and classes, and lock down the shooting schedule so we go on regardless of weather. I said .223 and 5.45x39 in MGR because that is what those military rifles are chambered in (AR & AK74). This will cover what most people (everyone so far) already have, and will disallow all the potential 'super' cartridges that people are putting in ARs and other rifles these days. I'm specifically trying to STOP an equipment race by limiting the chamberings to standard mil-surp chamberings.

I'm sticking with my suggestion (stolen from other FAL shoots) that both MBR Irons and MGR Irons be stock or roughly stock rifles. I'm sticking with my suggestion that Optics for both categories should allow non-standard stuff: heavy barrels, scope mounts (obviously), comps or brakes, scope-friendly stocks, etc.

I'll stand by the suggestion that .30 cal should be .30 cal mil-surp of some sort, listed above. I'll stand by the suggestion that MGR should also be mil-surp in .22 caliber, and not allow any of the 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, or 7mm stuff that is out there.

Tailback - I said the same thing: Garands should be in the MBR (it was the first American contribution to changing the definition of MBR, after all), and we should standardize around a mag change - at either five rounds or at any time - whatever the group thinks.

[Tat2]

Originally Posted by brunop

I officially propose the idea from my previous post, wherein we get rid of Unlimited, and introduce Optics:

MBR Irons .30 caliber (stock)
MBR Optics .30 caliber (w/ enhancements)
MGR Irons .22 caliber (stock)
MGR Optics .22 caliber (w/ enhancements)
Karate Riflez


I think this is the best way to encourage stock FAL shooting if you have the eyes for it. And if you don't, you can do FAL with scope - without having to compete against race guns in the future.

This is a quote from the winner of the Single Stack 2012 match .... this is
an annual event in Illinois that only allows Single Stack, iron sighted, 8 round
1911's....for a reason. His quote is....

"Everyone shoots the SAME thing, and no one has an equipment advantage"



IMHO the best way to "encourage stock FAL shooting" is to make it a FAL class like Stimpy does it.....

And if you are going to call it MBR(FAL) Optics.... the the only "enhancement"
should be just that....optics. Otherwise you are just kidding yourself and it all turns into an "equipment race"....again. Again....just IMHO.

T