Rifle Challenge

[rowjimmy]

Alright, I want you to take three 4" clay pigeons and put them at 50 yds. Use a shot timer and see how long it takes you to break all three starting with the rilfe loaded at the low ready position.

I'm using an AR with a 4x scope and it's definitely my hold and trigger press which needs work. I have a stock Bushmaster doublestage trigger and it's the suck. I'm figuring a good shooter could clear three clays in about 9 seconds. It's taking me around 15 to 19. I find even when I have a good run, I always struggle with at least one of the three and end up taking multiple shots. But, If I can break 2 in 6 or 7 seconds, I should be able to do three in 9 s.

I'm sure it would be much harder with a battle rifle and/or irons, but if you want to give it a try, let me know how you do. I know there are some many fine rifle shooters on here I would be happy to learn some things from.

[brunop]

Considering that Moses and JCornss and a few others are killing 8 targets (8"x13") at 200 yards in 8 seconds (prone, supported), I'm guessing the "target time" is more like 6 seconds for the three targets.

[rowjimmy]

Try it and let me know how you do. Off hand, 50 yds, 4" clays, starting with the gun at low ready and safety engaged.

I had a 5 second run for the first two targets and missed on the third today. My best run today was 13 seconds. I'm getting better, fewer shots needed, etc...


I know those guys are real riflemen and I'm not taking anything away from them or their ability, but I believe they start with the rifle shouldered prone, safety disengaged and sights on the target. You're at least looking at two seconds to raise the rifle and settle into the first shot. It usually takes me between 3 and 4 seconds.

I hope they run it and let me know how they do. I think you should run it and let me know how you do.

[brunop]

I'll do it this week - before the Oregon Shoot if I can make the time, or during the 6th Annual Oregon FAL Shoot in Central Oregon.

Maybe we'll turn it into an impromptu event.

[rowjimmy]

You might be right about the target time, like I said, I cleaned 2 in 5 seconds, but off-hand with a 4" target makes it a little harder IMHO.

I'd be interested in seeing what times the riflemen take. I'm just an average shooter.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Try it and let me know how you do. Off hand, 50 yds, 4" clays, starting with the gun at low ready and safety engaged.

Sounds like a good test! Unfortunately it'll be a little while before I can try it - but I'd like to and will try to. Is there any reason you're staying standing? I would think you could start standing at low ready, drop to kneeling or a squat, and make the hits in less time and more easily. A "rifleman" always looks for a more stable position

If this is just to practice your standing position, then more power to you - more practice is always better!

[karambay]

Noting this, should be able to do it next time I'm in the desert, I'll post my time.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by kotengu

Sounds like a good test! Unfortunately it'll be a little while before I can try it - but I'd like to and will try to. Is there any reason you're staying standing? I would think you could start standing at low ready, drop to kneeling or a squat, and make the hits in less time and more easily. A "rifleman" always looks for a more stable position

If this is just to practice your standing position, then more power to you - more practice is always better!

Yeah, the purpose is to work on off-hand hold. I don't seem to take to a kneeling position well, another thing I need to work on.

I'm using a common CQB hold, where my right elbow is down against my side and my left arm is gripping the fore end with thumb wrapped over hand guard. It's pretty stable, but IMO, nowhere near as stable as prone, so it comes down to breaking the shot at the right time.

I had to shoot a 12 or 16" gong at 200 yds off-hand one time at a match and found it fairly challenging. I'm sure the CMP shooters would find it fairly easy, but I know they also use a different stance and hold.

I guess I'd just like to learn how people approach this challenge as well as their success at it. I'm starting to think Brunop may be right about a lower time, but I find settling back into your hold and stabilizing the rifle off-hand for hitting a relatively small target takes some time.

[shlomo]

This sounds like fun, but it'll be a couple weeks before I can give it a run.

The time I went to Moses's match, I won the "Drop 3" offhand at 200 with a time of ten seconds and change, IIRC. That's with an A2 with irons.

The short range thing with clays sounds interesting, but I also think that it's right on the borderline where you might get it done faster with a pistol. Might have to give that a whirl and compare.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I'm sure it would be much harder with a battle rifle and/or irons, but if you want to give it a try, let me know how you do.

I ain't so sure about that. For me personally, the clarity and magnification of a scope shows every little bobble and tremor, and it gets between my ears about pulling the trigger on a hold that isn't perfect. With irons, it looks "good enough" and I break the shot.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by shlomo

This sounds like fun, but it'll be a couple weeks before I can give it a run.

The time I went to Moses's match, I won the "Drop 3" offhand at 200 with a time of ten seconds and change, IIRC. That's with an A2 with irons.

The short range thing with clays sounds interesting, but I also think that it's right on the borderline where you might get it done faster with a pistol. Might have to give that a whirl and compare.

I think the pistol would be really challenging. While bulls-eye shooters regularly put them in a comparable-sized circle, they at least have the entire target backer for reference when aiming. In this case, it's likely the entire front sight post would obscure the clay. I've hit clays at 50 yds with the pistol, but it took multiple shots and you could have timed me with a sun dial.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I think the pistol would be really challenging. While bulls-eye shooters regularly put them in a comparable-sized circle, they at least have the entire target backer for reference when aiming. In this case, it's likely the entire front sight post would obscure the clay. I've hit clays at 50 yds with the pistol, but it took multiple shots and you could have timed me with a sun dial.

I wrote a reply about this, but shitcanned it. I ain't goin' down the same road as Elmer and the mule deer, spinnin' yarns about what I used to do. However, this has made me wanna go find out what I am up to doing currently. I believe I could tear up some clays at 50 with a 1911, but then 20 years was a very long time ago.

[rowjimmy]

Moses 8x13" plates would be approximately 8 times the area of a clay at only 4 times the distance. Of course, MOA and accuaracy kill you with distance. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a comparable challenge in terms of hold.

I hope to shoot with you one day, maybe I'll drive down to Georgia some time for one of Stimpy's matches or sumthin'...

Let me know your results. I have no doubt of your ability.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Moses 8x13" plates would be approximately 8 times the area of a clay at only 4 times the distance. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a comparable challenge in terms of hold.

Comparing circles and rectangles is like that. Subtending the plates to 1/4 distance would make them 2" wide and 3 1/4" tall at 50.

I'd rather shoot the clays.

Ol' Delta ten has come down from eastern PA once for Stimp's match. You two might carpool and room.

You are definitely one of the folks here who I'd like to meet.

[kotengu]

I haven't tried them at 50, but at 100yds from prone those damn clays gave us all fits at Stimp's FAL match. Surely I can hit them at 50!


(maybe)

[brunop]

I'm taking a box of clays to the Oregon Shoot this weekend. We're going to have almost 30 shooters, so we'll get some times posted up.

And I think we're going to try the pistol thing, too. I suspect the pistol thing will be difficult because the hold will be high, which might obstruct the clay. More next week (Monday)...

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by brunop

I suspect the pistol thing will be difficult because the hold will be high, which might obstruct the clay.

You might be surprised. Pleasantly.

I look forward to the results.

[WarriorPoet]

Originally Posted by brunop

Considering that Moses and JCornss and a few others are killing 8 targets (8"x13") at 200 yards in 8 seconds (prone, supported), I'm guessing the "target time" is more like 6 seconds for the three targets.

And two of us did it in just 7-point-something seconds.

Just sayin'

-WP

[brunop]

7.99 and 7.92, right?

That's 8 seconds.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by brunop

7.99 and 7.92, right?

That's 8 seconds.

That's still workin' all day long as far as I'm concerned, when you're talking about hitting something the size of a license plate at 200 from standing.

Helluva good job!

[L Haney]

Take what Shlomo sayz about the 1911 with a grain of salt. He thinks it's amusing to shoot .44 hulls off the top of steel poppers WITHOUT hitting the popper.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by L Haney

Take what Shlomo sayz about the 1911 with a grain of salt. He thinks it's amusing to shoot .44 hulls off the top of steel poppers WITHOUT hitting the popper.

Actually I think they were .38 ;-)

[shlomo]

38...39...

Whatever it takes.

[kotengu]

For the record, I thought it was pretty darn amusing too.

[kotengu]

I tried this today - good drill!

My first run was 6.54 seconds, and I was feeling pretty darn cocky until I went downrange to find two of the clays weren't hit (I hit the wood behind them and knocked them down, making me think I broke them).

I tried it a few more times after that, but the best I could do was 13.15 seconds when actually hitting all the clays.

This was with a 4.5x scope and shlomo's medium heavy barrel. I'd like to blame my problems on my left arm not being strong enough to hold up that beast, and the 111°F temperature - I'm pretty sure it was just me though.

I'll have to try it again with irons and my light carbine barrel.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by kotengu

I'd like to blame my problems on my left arm not being strong enough to hold up that beast, and the 111°F temperature - I'm pretty sure it was just me though.

I'll have to try it again with irons and my light carbine barrel.

We will accept that (ahem!) reason, so long as you perform with the carbine.

[rowjimmy]

Yeah, I've been averaging between 13 to 19 s. I'm going to run it a few times this week again. I'll let you know my best run or if my averages improve.

They present a slightly smaller target if they are leaning back on a hill instead of standing on edge, making it a little tougher.

I think 9 s is a reasonable target time, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone (ahem!) could run it a bit quicker. I'm waiting with baited breath.

Brunop should be reporting in from his shoot this weekend too, maybe his gang had some good runs.

[brunop]

Got a lot of rain this weekend in the desert, and we dropped the impromptu challenge.

On the good side, it is an interesting enough challenge that one of the guys who runs a three-gun match in two weeks is going to make it one of the events.

That'll get some times for comparison.

And I'm heading to the range this coming weekend to try it out. Sorry to drop the ball.

[rowjimmy]

Just an FYI, when the 5.56 round hits, sometimes they just poke a hole in the clay without exploding it. To circumvent this, you can make a "clayoreo" where you rubber band two together with some sand or dirt between them. It then becomes a frangible target which affords positive hit indication. You can suspend them from some duct tape with a toothpick extruding form the end to provide a lip for the clayoreo to rest on when the tape is placed between the backs of the banded clays.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Just an FYI, when the 5.56 round hits, sometimes they just poke a hole in the clay without exploding it. To circumvent this, you can make a "clayoreo" where you rubber band two together with some sand or dirt between them. It then becomes a frangible target which affords positive hit indication. You can suspend them from some duct tape with a toothpick extruding form the end to provide a lip for the clayoreo to rest on when the tape is placed between the backs of the banded clays.

That sounds like a lotta trouble to go thru.

I think I'll just hold for the rim.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by shlomo

That sounds like a lotta trouble to go thru.

I think I'll just hold for the rim.

Show off....

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

Show off....

"Bullshitter" would be closer to the truth.

[kotengu]

I'd give you a hard time about using a "real" rifle, but I had the same thing happen once with the FAL. I like Oreos - maybe I'll have to try the clay version.

[rowjimmy]

Had a couple of 10 and 11 second runs today. Ran one under 8 s but I flipped the first clay off the bank and didn't break it.

I need to become one with my rifle...

I'm using new ammo, the PMC .223 and it groups better than the fed xm193. I had a decent 5 shot group at 500 yds which was probably around 1.5 moa but it was a little windy. Everything was off paper onto the right of the target backer, but elevation was good. I'm not sure how much is required scope adjustment versus wind.

[kotengu]

I tried it again today with the Imbel carbine. It still had the heavy scope on it as I was doing some load development just before this. Scope was set on 4.5x. I limited myself to 6 shots per run, figuring if I hadn't hit them all by them I was just wasting ammo.

First run was 7.72 seconds and it took me 4 shots to hit all three clays.

Unfortunately, I couldn't repeat that performance. The next three runs were 11.65s, 14.97s, and 15.47s (6 shots for all of them). The last two runs I left a clay standing.

My new goal is to beat 6 seconds, and to do it more than once!

[shlomo]

Finally arranged to shoot this today, and it was a mixed bag. I had thought that it would be a toss-up between the pistol and rifle; it was not.

We shot in a sort of alley cut in a wooded area, with canopy overhead. I found that I had a hell of a time in the semi-gloom seeing both the rifle sights (irons on an AR) and the targets, sights being the worst problem. Guessing where I was holding, shot a couple runs in the mid-twenties, taking something like twelve rounds. Painted the top half of the front post orange, and cut the time to 9 seconds and four shots.

I really thought I could do that or a little better with the 1911, but I am evidently no longer up to that. The clays at 50 were just outside the envelope of the shooter/pistol/ammo combination, and the best I was able to do was 17 seconds. All the above, with both guns, from low ready and safety on.

Getting old sux. But I will not surrender, and I still had a helluva good time with it. I also think I can do six seconds with the rifle, but the pistol may never get there.

This is quite a fun little challenge, and I will be doing this again in the near future.

[kotengu]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Getting old sux. But I will not surrender,

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by kotengu

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Pretty soon, I ain't gonna be good for nothin' but burnin' the shitters.

[rowjimmy]

I haven't tried it since my last post, but it's part of a stage in my multigun match this Sunday. I won't get to know individual runs as it's part of a bigger stage, but I will be able to tell if the guys in my squad are scoring hits or making chin music...

Glad you guys enjoyed it.

I shot like shit this past Saturday at my friend's match. I nailed the 300 yd Larue target on my second shot shooting supported from a barricade, but struggled with the 200 and 150 yd flash targets. I know my gun is nuts on and shoots accurately with this ammo (as verified prone with 2 moa or smaller groups) but I couldn't settle into a good hold. I need to work on different rifle positions more.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I need to work on different rifle positions more.

This. Other than indoor-distance stuff at large targets, the job is being able to form your body into a gun platform, and do it quickly.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

My understanding of "low ready" is:
Shooter standing w/loaded rifle shouldered, finger off trigger, facing 90 degrees to target( like a batter at the plate waiting for a pitch) and the muzzle pointed downward at about 45 degrees or so. Is that about right?

How far apart must the clays be from one another?

Originally Posted by shlomo

This. Other than indoor-distance stuff at large targets, the job is being able to form your body into a gun platform, and do it quickly.

I have formed my body into a biscuit platform and it has taken me about 20 years to do it.

[rowjimmy]

In competitive shooting, I usually find your description of low ready is accurate except for requiring the muzzle to be 90 degrees from the target, that would put it right at the 180 degree safety zone. I usually square up on the target, rifle shouldered, finger indexed along receiver, muzzle down about 45 degrees with rifle maybe 45 degrees left of line of sight of target. maybe I'm doing it wrong. I place the clays about 2 or 3ft apart, but we never really specified. I guess we should decide on a standard for consistency. I say let's do 2 ft.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

In competitive shooting, I usually find your description of low ready is accurate except for requiring the muzzle to be 90 degrees from the target, that would put it right at the 180 degree safety zone. I usually square up on the target, rifle shouldered, finger indexed along receiver, muzzle down about 45 degrees with rifle maybe 45 degrees left of line of sight of target. maybe I'm doing it wrong. I place the clays about 2 or 3ft apart, but we never really specified. I guess we should decide on a standard for consistency. I say let's do 2 ft.

That's my take too. Right angles to the target line is at the limit of the 180 plane and a degree away from a DQ. I'm squared up, muzzle down at approx. 45 degrees, finger out, and safety on.

My clays were about 18 in apart, hanging from duct tape straps. That's the spacing the crossbar allowed. I really don't think the spacing matters much unless they're REALLY far apart, because you have to re-acquire the sight picture after recoil no matter what.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Originally Posted by shlomo

That's my take too. Right angles to the target line is at the limit of the 180 plane and a degree away from a DQ. I'm squared up, muzzle down at approx. 45 degrees, finger out, and safety on.

My clays were about 18 in apart, hanging from duct tape straps. That's the spacing the crossbar allowed. I really don't think the spacing matters much unless they're REALLY far apart, because you have to re-acquire the sight picture after recoil no matter what.

That was a mistake on my part. I had envisioned a shooter standing about 90 degrees or so from the target with the rifle shouldered and the muzzle downrange at a 45 degree angle. I should have clarified that in my previous post.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle

That was a mistake on my part. I had envisioned a shooter standing about 90 degrees or so from the target with the rifle shouldered and the muzzle downrange at a 45 degree angle. I should have clarified that in my previous post.

I was wondering if that was the case.

One thing I didn't think to try was shooting this using the large short-range aperture. Next time.

[brunop]

Went to the range with my dad, mom, and wife. Left the kids at home today to fend for themselves. Outstanding.

Forgot the timer. Not outstanding. But we had a digital stopwatch. I ran it five or six times. Two of the first four runs were right at 7 seconds to break the three clays: fifty yards, two feet apart, about three feet above the ground. Yellow four-inchers - not the red/orange ones. One run in nine-ish seconds. Last two I quit after I missed multiple times trying to go fast.

Started from low-ready, safety on, round in the chamber (obviously). She said, "Shooter ready...go!" - and hit the stopwatch at the same time. She pushed stop after the last clay broke. This means I could probably get three-tenths back if we were using the timer.

I did the runs with two rifles: the LMT M-4gery owned by SWMBO with an Aimpoint Comp4, and the LMT upper on a plastic Cav Arms lower (that I love) with an Eo-tech (1 moa dot inside the 65 moa donut of death). I did the seven second runs once each with the two rifles.

If I ever break six seconds, it will be pure numbers (luck?). If a body had to 'ensure' they were going to hit all three, rather than go fast and see if they got lucky, I'd probably be in the nine second category most of the time.


I thought I'd have a go with an FAL and iron sights. Ran out of time. But I'm sure it will be a slower time than I originally thought - I was thinking the FAL might be in the same ballpark. Not so sure any more.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by brunop

Went to the range with my dad, mom, and wife. Left the kids at home today to fend for themselves. Outstanding.

Forgot the timer. Not outstanding. But we had a digital stopwatch. I ran it five or six times. Two of the first four runs were right at 7 seconds to break the three clays: fifty yards, two feet apart, about three feet above the ground. Yellow four-inchers - not the red/orange ones. One run in nine-ish seconds. Last two I quit after I missed multiple times trying to go fast.

....

Video or it didn't happen...

Nice runs.

[shlomo]

Brunop can shoot. I done seen it with my own eyes.

Believe it.

[rowjimmy]

Originally Posted by shlomo

Brunop can shoot. I done seen it with my own eyes.

Believe it.

I was just funnin'...

He doesn't strike me as a prevaricator.

[shlomo]

Originally Posted by rowjimmy

I was just funnin'...

I saw the winkie. I was jist givin props to Brunop, who, like Stimp, makes me ashamed for not being a better man.