Vickers: 18 round limit in FAL mags

[ronpaulFAL]

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/battle-rifles/

"...A few end user tips on the FAL: keep it reasonably clean and well lubed, learn how the gas regulator functions and how to adjust it, and only load 18 rds in the magazine. In my experience if you abide by these rules the FAL will serve you well..."

---------

Why only load 18 rds?

[2barearms]

So.......only 28 rds in my 30's?

I'm thinking 19, but Larry's been there and done that. He hangs around
here a lot lately and maybe he'd address the round count thinking in a little
more detail. (btw I'm bringing my 30rd L4's to the party)

[brunop]

Max spring compression reduces the reliability of feeding. I know that SADF vets did this. I know some Viet Nam vets (U.S.) swear that 28 rounds belong in a 30 round mag.

Could be that dirty, worn, or out-of-spec stuff works better with some 'wiggle room'. I don't know, but this is an oft-repeated bit of advice from several different places.

Peace.

[FUUN063]

I have normally put 19 rounds in all my mags and then, when the bolt flies home, there are 18 rounds left in the mag. I have, however, shot my rifle using 20 rounds in them. But, you never know when you need it for that Zombie hoard and they absolutely, positively have to work.......at night!


Leland

[msnyder]

Good reason to have a 25 round mag. Load it with a box of 20 and still not be at full load. A 22 round mag would be cool.

[Thorack]

Hmm,

I wonder if this is a mag or rifle shortcoming? If its the mag, the SCAR-17 is probably affected the same way. Haven't heard any mag issues with the SCAR, but I don't own one either. Makes you wonder though are G-3 mags affected as well?

Does anyone know what an Norwegian AK4 style bolt carrier with forward assist scallops looks like on an FAL?

Thorack

[EMSflyer]

I'll deffer to Mr.Vicker's experience on the two way rifle range.

That being said, I've owned several FALs, we have two in the family now.
I've always loaded my FAL mags to 20 and they always lock in the mag well
with the bolt closed and feed all 20 rounds.

I've done range drills which involved shooting, moving and reloading quickly.
Never had a problem shoving a fully loaded 20 round mag in the rifle and using it.

Maybe back in the day the FAL mags Mr. Vicker's was using had weak springs?

I've read two books on the African Bush Wars and don't recall any of mention of downloading FAL mags.

Anyone else?

EMSflyer

[2barearms]

I'm probably suffering from Magazine memory......I don't remember where
I stashed all of them

[Zeusizme]

I know that if the mag spring is to strong it will cause FTF in my AR. Downloading a round or two would solve the problem, so does leaving them loaded for a few weeks.

[brunop]

gunplumber points out in a post here on the Files that spring compression capacity doesn't change just because it got loaded and was left 'loaded'. He points out that spring capacity is changed due to cyclical wear (loading, unloading, loading, unloading, etc.), so I doubt that leaving a mag loaded changes anything.

@emsflyer - I haven't read any books on African Bush Wars, but I think I remember reading here on the Files two SOPs from the SADF (or SADF sub-units) regarding mags: a) loading mags with two or three tracer rounds at the end of the mag so that the operator knows that he's about to go empty, and b) downloading mags to 18. Can't remember where I read that, or if it was on a link that someone gave here.

Or I could just have a crappy memory and I'm making things up. Very real possibility.

[4markk]

Probably coming from the Basic Training Myths and Legends. Like "using a .50 cal MG against troops is against the Geneva Conventions", which is a myth.

Through the years I've heard several stories about the M16 20 rd mags and how you should only load 18 rds in them. One story is that the floor plate is too weak to hold the compression of 20 rds loaded. Second story was that with 20rds loaded the spring was too tight for the mag to lock properly if you had to insert the mag with the bolt closed. Third story was that the lack of bow in the mag causes the follower to apply uneven pressure on the rounds against the lips when the mag was full (20 rds), which results in a FTF.

I can tell you that besides countless ranges there was one time in my career when I was loading 20 and 30 mags from stipper clips like my life depended on it. I loaded them all full and none failed me. That I remember that is, but things can get a little blurry in some situations. YMMV.

All of these stories related to M16 mags and there are known issues with many a surplus mag. However, I have never heard these regarding FAL mags. I routinely load my 20 rd mags full on the range. Although I get an occasional problem, none often enough to suggest there is a problem with loading the mags full. Again, this is all based on my limited observations, so YMMV.

[Larry Vickers]

It is a cheap insurance policy that your FAL will have enough force behind the bolt carrier to chamber a round completely from bolt lock on a dirty, sandy, dry weapon - remember this is for FAL's that are being used in harms way; the majority do not have a forward assist and if it does not chamber completely you can easily induce a double feed when trying to re charge the weapon

Also think about doing this at night

You load 28 rds in your 30 rd AR magazine so you can seat the magazine with the bolt forward- there is inadequate spring compression room when loaded to 30 rds to do it and be 100% sure it is seated

Experience has taught me the loading/reloading sequence on a combat arm is an area fraught with danger where many things can go wrong at the worst possible time if you do not have solid techniques in place

I must quote the Pete Harbeck rule ( somewhat modified for this instance)-'It is one thing to execute something in bright daylight on the range- it is quite another to do it at night, under fire, in the rain'

LAV

[2barearms]

On one hand I don't ever want have to test my magazines on a 2 way
range, however I'd never want to bet my life either. At my age I'm
hoping for the Rodney King Doctrine but reluctantly I'd use what I've
got to the bitter end.

[PARA FN FAL]

I use the down load by one round rule. On my 20 round mags I use 19 and my 30s get 28 or 29 rounds. I do this because it is embarrassing when you jam in a full 30 round mag with a closed bolt and it just falls right back out. Or when someone says" hey where's your mag "and you realize it fell out somewhere. This has never happened to me with the FAL type rifle but has with a AR15 rifle and a handgun.

[DakTo]

I guess it boils down on what you feel most comfortable and needless to say most of us will never be taking a FAL into combat.
I have experienced an occasional failure to feed with a full 20 round magazine but on the other hand I have fired hundreds of full magazines without a failure.

In Nam we employed fully loaded 20 round magazines and if there were an occasional problem we would either smack the bottom of the magazine and the round would chamber or just drop the magazine and insert another.

In a combat situation if you are loading your own magazines it may be prudent to underload by a round or two as you will not likely be counting rounds during a firefight.

[airground]

I carried fully loaded 20s and 30s for 14mos in Iraq with no issues....it goes to back to users choice.

[lew]

Originally Posted by brunop

Max spring compression reduces the reliability of feeding. I know that SADF vets did this. I know some Viet Nam vets (U.S.) swear that 28 rounds belong in a 30 round mag.

Could be that dirty, worn, or out-of-spec stuff works better with some 'wiggle room'. I don't know, but this is an oft-repeated bit of advice from several different places.

Peace.

In both conflicts, just as many troops did not download their magazines, with no trouble to report. It was up to individual units to incorporate that as SOP, so one unit might do it, while the one right next to it didn't. An FAL or AR magazine is designed to work with how many rounds it is stated to take. Take note that there is still room for the spring to be compressed just a little further after the magazine has been filled to capacity. Fill 'em up and blast away.

[VonFireball]

I think Mr. Vickers has some good points about seating the mags. I have wolf springs in mine and you definitely have to put a little muscle in to get it seated on a full 20 rounder. It's possible that it may not lock in all the way in a stressful situation.

By the same token, a legendary engineer designed it to hold 20. It was tested at the factory and by many a military that way. How many died cause they loaded 20 and had a malfunction of sorts? How many died because they could've used the extra one or two rounds? There are no statistic for FAL with regard to that so I think preference plays the biggest part.

[blazer001]

I'm listening to Larry...who was Delta, who prob has shot over 5 million dollars worth of ammo. I am guessing any advise he has he learned the hard way.

[gunplumber]

Larry is full of shit.. Larry is repeating a myth that has no basis in reality.

Loading 21 rounds in a FAL Mag will cause problems, and yes, it can sometimes be done.

But there is not complete compression (spring going "solid") with 20 rounds.

If the gun does not reliably strip the 1st round, the problem is not with the magazine.

The AR-15 had problems in Vietnam independent of the magazine. Downloading the magazine may have assisted in working around the other problems. Or it may have been perceived to have done so. The design of the AR-15 magazine is probably too short for its capacity. But I've been loading 30 round AR Mags to capacity for 25 years and never had a problem with an otherwise in spec rifle.

The AK magazine is a far superior design, in that the follower bottoms out against the floor plate prior to the spring going solid.

I submit the opposite is more likely a problem - that is, a "weak" spring (rate constant) is more likely to cause a malfunction of bolt-over-base than a "strong" rate is likely to cause a failure of first round chamber.

spring rate = rate constant/length (active coils), and constant is the inverse of Hooke's law (material).

The challenge in spring design is to come up with a material (constant), a wire diameter, and a coil length, that will fit inside the magazine body, and exert enough force to "bounce" on recoil faster than the bolt carrier can return. Yet at the same time not provide so much force that the carrier can't strip the round. When the length (AR-15 magazine) is set, one has far less options on diameter and active coils, leaving only material constant. If one could start from scratch, I suspect we'd see AR-15 magazines a half inch longer.

Anyway, since the bolt carrier travel is a function of its mass and velocity, and the resistance of the return springs, and the velocity is a function of the ammunition pressure peak and pressure curve, there are far too many factors at play to pretend that downloading a magazine = greater reliability. It's just a myth that started in a different time, with a different rifle, different magazine, different ammunition, and a grossly different environment, and people who had control over only one factor - displacement. So they wore their protective amulets and downloaded their magazines - either of which could as rationally be credited with perceived fortuitous events.

So I say - load your FAL mag to 30 rounds. If you can't chamber the first round, fix the problem (new return spring?) rather than working around it by downloading the magazine.

[Tuscan Raider]

Maybe for tactical reload purposes? Makes it easier to seat a mag?

[gunplumber]

The leverage of a cam-lock magazine far exceeds anything spring displacement could resist.

Now on an MP5, you MUST download one round to reload with bolt closed. The magazine has no residual displacement when loaded to capacity.

Not so with a FAL mag.

On an AR mag, the insertion force is less, as one just pushes it in along a fixed axis - there is no force multiplying fulcrum as with a FAL or AK. So downloading the mag one on an AR may help work-around sloppy technique or out of spec parts. One should always tug on the mag after insertion to insure it is locked in place. One can take all their magazines and attempt to insert them fully loaded into a rifle with closed bolt. If one mag seems to have greater resistance than the others, wouldn't determining the cause make more sense than downloading all mags to work around the cause?

[ronpaulFAL]

Thanks to everyone for their comments- particularly Larry Vickers, as it was a statement of his that caught my attention in the first place.

Sounds like those of us that are at a comfortable range on a sunny day will probably be fine using mags at capacity. It's just my take but it sounds like the guys who are (or train to be in harms way) and use mags at capacity do so at their own peril.

I just shoot at the range- I'm not in the military and I don't like to pretend I am on weekends. Nonetheless I will be loading 18 in my FAL mags, for consistency.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by ronpaulFAL

Sounds like those of us that are at a comfortable range on a sunny day will probably be fine using mags at capacity. . . . .the guys who are (or train to be in harms way) and use mags at capacity do so at their own peril.

Then you got nothing out of the discussion you didn't have going into it, which is to say, myths and superstitions.

Like the "never light three cigarettes off a single match" there may have once been something behind it (a cigarette can be seen for long distances at night), but the interpretation and the context changed, making it a superstition. That is, a sniper can aim at the glow of a cigarette, which becomes brighter when one inhales. It might take the typical sniper a few seconds to identify the glow and align his sights, making the third guy the target. The number of a people lighting their cigarettes off a match (carried over to zippos) isn't the point, the time it takes to sight in on a target is. So closing the zippo and opening it doesn't break the spell. Not smoking at night breaks the spell.

[blazer001]

Say you were issued a 240 rounds, 8 magazine, and an M4 over in the middle east and you were on a year tour. You might shoot your bullets and you might not, would it be better to load the magazine full or just put 28 rounds in it? Or would it matter at all?

[gunplumber]

Load them full and clean them frequently. Understanding that unloading them to clean them puts more wear on them then leaving them loaded. (Another myth of spring technology). Cycling causes wear. Stasis does not. Cycling causes heat. Heat expands the stress risers created through wrapping a pre-heat-treated spring stock. Not so much with soft wire heat-treated after winding, like used on valves or suspensions.

[blazer001]

Good info to know!

[4markk]

Originally Posted by blazer001

I'm listening to Larry...who was Delta, who prob has shot over 5 million dollars worth of ammo. I am guessing any advise he has he learned the hard way.

I think you are still missing the overall point ... Is Larry wrong??? Of course not, 18 rds will function just fine and in some circumstances maybe better. Does that mean 20 rds is wrong??? Of course not. If you are intimate with your tools you know their limitations. You work within those strengths and limitations to achieve the desired results.

I know I don't have the bonfides of Larry. Nor have I ever been a member of "Delta Force", afterall no named organization exist in the US Military. However, while I was with OCFI we max packed when we left the wire. Mostly because you never assume it's a milk run, you always assume you are going to be there for awhile and beyond the reach of help. Does that mean everyone max'd out his mags? Of course not. But those that didn't probably had an extra mag to compensate. Remember, winning or losing can come down to those missing 20+ rds (10+ mags 2 rds each) per man.

I digress, bottomline for 99.999% of us it won't matter whether we have 1, 5, 10, 18 or 20 rds in our 20 rd mags the FAL should operate as designed. YMMV

[gunplumber]

It is foolish to infer that, because one was a bad-ass operator in the distant past, that one automatically has the requisite engineering and design understanding to gauge and troubleshoot the equipment. It is a different skill set entirely.

Consider an aircraft pilot, an aircraft mechanic, and aircraft designer. All have valuable skillsets, but they are different. While there is some overlap, I'd no more want Rambo building me a rifle, than I'd want John Browning leading my entry team.

[brunop]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Larry is full of shit.. Larry is repeating a myth that has no basis in reality.

Loading 21 rounds in a FAL Mag will cause problems, and yes, it can sometimes be done.

But there is not complete compression (spring going "solid") with 20 rounds.

If the gun does not reliably strip the 1st round, the problem is not with the magazine...



...load your FAL mag to 30 rounds. If you can't chamber the first round, fix the problem (new return spring?) rather than working around it by downloading the magazine.

Like no one saw this coming.

Mark - I applaud your knowledge and your willingness to help people here better understand their weapon of choice. I also love the amulet comparison and other intelligent and funny stuff.

But I believe you have (inadvertently?) bolstered Larry's position when you posit that underpowered or otherwise unsatisfactory "return spring" performance could, in fact, detract from round-chambering reliability. You suggested that a person should fix the root cause ("...fix the problem..."). Larry would no doubt agree. He is saying that in the field, and where less-than-perfect conditions prevail (dirt/sand, etc.), he'll try to solve the problem the only way a guy in the field can solve it. Download.

Now I understand you were on a two way range as well. I'm not saying you are wrong, per se. I'm saying that you like your explanation better than other people's explanations, and like yours so well you frequently don't see that there are more than one satisfactory explanations in an argument. Larry is not full of shit; and he may not even be spreading the myth/Gospel of Download. Rather, it is entirely possible that an intelligent person has witnessed enough 'events' that don't occur when the Download Gospel is 'in play', that they have decided it even though their own life may be hanging on the round-count, they'd rather have 18 than 20. Does 'wrongly attributed' make them Wrong? In your scientific/black-white world it may. Does it make him wrong in the utility of that equipment (which was the question in the first place)? Not. At. All.

And your comparison between Rambo and John Browning is funny and 'true', but it isn't appropriate or applicable to the question at hand. Larry isn't claiming that he can design, spec, and manufacture a rifle (or a mag). He's claiming that the field usage, something he is an expert in, is superior under certain circumstances. Just because you'd rather solve the problem in the shop doesn't mean he's got it wrong in the field.

Just like people who wore brass amulets over their chests and thought that magic spirits would keep arrows from killing them. Turns out that wearing brass chest decorations was a bitchin' idea - whether they did it for the wrong reasons or not.

[L/FN]

I've had new 20 rnd mags that wouldn't feed off the top when full.

When to use 18/19 rnds: When TSHTF and someone hands you their spare FAL and some odd extra mags from the bottom of the pile.
When you have to jump in using unknown mags.
----------------------
When to use 20 rnds: When you know your FAL and mags are in proper working order.

My FALs are well tuned w/ extra margin of gas regulation.
I use VG cond or better military mags with the feed lips deburred and polished.
My action is slick and I prefer sand cut carriers and receivers.
I do not use a recoil buffer as I want full rearward travel of the B&C as this will provide more spring compression, more travel time and stronger stripping of a rnd from a mag.

If you use the charging handle to charge the 1st rnd out of a mag, make sure the charging handle operates smoothly and don't ride the handle down.
------------------------------------------------------
I would fill any magazine for any weapon to full capacity, but if the weapon/mags exhibits a problem w/ feeding, I would figure out the problem or pull a rnd or 2 from ea mag if need be.
NEVER take a unproven weapon, mags or ammo into a life threatening situation unless you have no choice.

Not all weapons and mags of the same style seem to be exact clones in reliabilty. For yrs I heard about how crappy FALs were based on Century FALs.
Who would have thunk there could be better.

[gunplumber]

I run into this frequently with people who have more enthusiasm than knowledge working on their guns.

a FIX corrects the problem. It returns a system to its design parameters from which it has deviated through wear or defect.

a WORKAROUND bypasses the problem, usually by modifying a correct part to work in conjunction with an incorrect part.

sometimes the FIX is impossible or impractical, thereby making a WORKAROUND a rational choice. For example, welding up a mag catch to work with an EAI FAL receiver with a too-long mag well.

the key is to know which you are doing and why.

If your rifle is out of spec, then it seems to me more rational to FIX it than to WORKAROUND the problem.

downloading a a magazine is a workaround to another problem. During Vietnam, M16s were plagued by problems associated with corrosion and incorrect powder changing the pressure and pressure curve. This also affects bolt carrier velocity and could well have made downloading a magazine a rational workaround since the problem itself was above the operator's paygrade. The M16 continues to have problems (M4) when it is used outside its design parameters. It is not a squad support weapon. Doing continuous BETA mag 100 round dumps is going to overheat it quickly. Is the scalpel defective because it does a poor job splitting wood?

I've read a lot of books on WWII and Korea, with particular interest in books like "Ordnance up Front" that analyzed the small arms. I don't recall ever reading of a need to download a BAR magazine. Or an M14 magazine. This started in vietnam with the M16. The M16 has had a lot of improvements since then. Continuing a WORKAROUND for a problem that no longer exists makes no sense to me.

If your FAL does not strip the top round from a loaded magazine, the rifle is defective. I submit that identifying the defect and FIXING it is a better option, than adapting a workaround for a different problem, on a different gun, from a different era and environment.

You are correct, that if you choose to use defective equipment, you may have no alternative but to work-around the defects in the field.

But the problem is not with the design of the 20 round magazine or the FAL. Therefore the "solution" of downloading magazines is flawed.

The problem is using 50 year old springs from a rusted out parts kit that has seen decades of combat in Africa. And then adapting your tactics to WORKAROUND an easy hardware fix.

Does Mr. Vickers still recommend taping a cleaning rod to the M16 handguards? Of course not. This was a workaround for a hardware problem of the 1960s that was fixed long ago. But it made sense then.

[Outlaw Patriot]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

I'd no more want Rambo building me a rifle, than I'd want John Browning leading my entry team.

What this guy? afraid he'd shoot you in the leg with his booger picker on the trigger of that squirrel gun?

[Thorack]

Huh,

I thought this was a John Browning worship site and now we are questioning his room clearing skills?

As penence you should throw 20 BDA mags over you shoulder and promise to never sin again.

Thorack

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by Thorack

Huh,

I thought this was a John Browning worship site and now we are questioning his room clearing skills?

As penence you should throw 20 BDA mags over you shoulder and promise to never sin again.

Thorack

I have a set of 1-2-3 and V blocks on which are engraved the initials JMB.

Just sayin'.

[ghf]

I agree w/ Mark- we never downloaded magazines. No correctly built, govt spec FAL nor G-3 nor M-16 magazine was made to work better with less rounds in it.

Then again, one must know one's equipment and oneself. If one's rifle malfunctions w/ fully loaded mags or the soldier malfunctions by not slapping the mag in hard enough to seat it and downloading the mags solves the problem until one can get the malfunctioning weapon fixed (if ever...knowing the army and its maintenance system) or the soldier can be retrained, download the mags.

Re using tracers to know when one is about to "go empty".
Remember us playing around w/ that idea in the M-16. General consensus was that if one were to do this, placing the tracer at the 18th round (in 20 round mag), would be the way to go. But, that tracer also may also attract a lot of attention from the other side, as well as telling a "saavy" enemy that you are about to go dry. We never used tracers for this purpose.

[Larry Vickers]

Gentlemen I have conducted myself here in an extremely professional manner- as a general rule I don't frequent gun forums and I hate to see this one going down the tubes

If you don't agree with me that is fine - but to imply that I am full of shit is extremely unprofessional; my resume speaks for itself

I expect you to talk to me exactly the same way you would to my face- because someday you may get the chance

Gunplumber this is directed at you in case you have not figured it out

Larry Vickers
Tac-TV.com

[4markk]

Originally Posted by Outlaw Patriot

What this guy? afraid he'd shoot you in the leg with his booger picker on the trigger of that squirrel gun?

Scared me there for a second .... I thought the picture showed John Browning as a lefty. But it must be a reverse print because the buttons are on the wrong side. Pppppphhhheeeewwwwww !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[1gewehr]

I have to admit, the idea of downloading a FAL mag never occurred to me or anyone else I knew until I read it here on the FALFiles. I've been shooting various models of FALs since 1979 in both military and civilian roles.

The only times I've ever seen a FAL fail to strip the first round properly was where the mag had dented or bent feed lips.

As always, other folks have had different experiences. For me, it seems to be a non-issue, so I'll keep my FAL mags topped up with 20rds.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by Larry Vickers

If you don't agree with me that is fine - but to imply that I am full of shit is extremely unprofessional; my resume speaks for itself

I expect you to talk to me exactly the same way you would to my face- because someday you may get the chance

Gunplumber this is directed at you in case you have not figured it out

Larry Vickers
Tac-TV.com

I'm not implying anything. I'm not one to mince words. Doesn't matter what kind of bad ass you were in the distant past. You are in this case full of shit*, and I'll say it here or to your face.

A long time ago, you were a great soldier. As one vet to another, thank you for your service. But it doesn't give your assertions here, today, on this specific subject, a gold plating.

If I want to know how a 737 hijacking would have been dealt with in the 1970s, I'd consider your historical input valuable. On the technical firearms issues in general, and the FAL in particular, I think *my* resume speaks for itself.

*I thought replacing "full of shit" with "repeating a myth that has no basis in reality", was kindof funny. Especially in the context of one SpecOps vet to another . . . people who aren't supposed to have fragile egos.

If you want to compare penis size, perhaps we can do the Darby Queen? I'll spot you a few seconds for every year you're older than me (I'm 43).

Or we can grab a couple beers and you can articulate why *I* am full of shit.

[Olaf]

Originally Posted by 4markk

Scared me there for a second .... I thought the picture showed John Browning as a lefty. But it must be a reverse print because the buttons are on the wrong side. Pppppphhhheeeewwwwww !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like the great n mighty JMB would hath been sent here by the O'mighty
WRONG HANDED

[ronpaulFAL]

For the record, the only opinion I was directly soliciting was Larry's- because he originally made the comment, a fellow surgeon whom I respect greatly took his class and spoke highly of him, and it made me interested in what he has to say about the FAL (plus I have an HK45 that I consider to be the ideal polymer .45). Really it was Larry's interest in the FAL that got my attention as I had almost bought an HK MR762. Not to say that most of the other comments are unwelcome---far from it---but as the original poster, I have the info I requested and we don't need to continue this. However, a few were unsolicited and are indeed unwelcome.

I have only been checking this forum out for a few months but I have already noticed a trend: conversations are cordial and full of useful info--> gunplumber joins in and offers a useful perspective--> gunplumber fires off some unprovoked verbal jabs--> the entire discussion melts down, and dozens of people are annoyed with no clear benefit to the discussion or the forum.

[NHBandit]

Originally Posted by Larry Vickers

Gentlemen I have conducted myself here in an extremely professional manner- as a general rule I don't frequent gun forums and I hate to see this one going down the tubes

If you don't agree with me that is fine - but to imply that I am full of shit is extremely unprofessional; my resume speaks for itself

I expect you to talk to me exactly the same way you would to my face- because someday you may get the chance

Gunplumber this is directed at you in case you have not figured it out

Larry Vickers
Tac-TV.com

Mr Vickers if you expected professionalism from GP you don't know the man very well. He honestly believes that his knowlege and experience gives him the right to berate everyone he dissagrees with. He can't simply dissagree with you and state why. He has to try to trash you to make himself feel important. Being courteous or even simply polite is not what he's about. You must know people in "real life" who beat people to death with their opinion simply by talking louder than those who dissagree with them and will keep at it until you give up. He has zero respect for the fact that you're a fellow soldier because he thinks he's the best & baddest soldier ever to draw a breath. If you continue to dissagree with him he'll pull out the GP patented "you're a liar" card and continue to try to beat you down. He ain't worth it. Let him think his opinion is the only "correct" opinion.. I have done my best to keep my fingers off the keyboard lately where GP is concerned after the last exchange we had that resulted in him finally getting the thread closed but It's not my nature to sit back & watch him bash a well respected member of the firearms community simply because he hates to share the spotlight. Contrary to what you believe Mr Graham it's not always all about YOU.. GP don't even think this is an invitation to start another of your famous exchanges of insults. That's not why I'm posting this. Just stating the obvious... Now your cheerleaders will cheer you and the rest of us will just shake our heads & walk away. Most of us can read you like a cheap dime store novel..

[2barearms]

Starting a sentence with 'you're full of shit' is really uncalled for in this case.

It's really a shame we have a total jackass know it all here who resort to insults
first. I'd move to have you banned after this one since basically it's against
board rules to do what you did, so hey everyone here that thinks gunplunger
should be banned send the Mods a PM. You won't hurt his feelings because
he doesn't care about you or anyone else here.

[ronpaulFAL]

Originally Posted by NHBandit

Mr Vickers if you expected professionalism from GP you don't know the man very well. He honestly believes that his knowlege and experience gives him the right to berate everyone he dissagrees with. He can't simply dissagree with you and state why. He has to try to trash you to make himself feel important. Being courteous or even simply polite is not what he's about. You must know people in "real life" who beat people to death with their opinion simply by talking louder than those who dissagree with them and will keep at it until you give up. He has zero respect for the fact that you're a fellow soldier because he thinks he's the best & baddest soldier ever to draw a breath. If you continue to dissagree with him he'll pull out the GP patented "you're a liar" card and continue to try to beat you down. He ain't worth it. Let him think his opinion is the only "correct" opinion.. GP don't even think this is an invitation to start another of your famous exchanges of insults. That's not why I'm posting this. Just stating the obvious... Now your cheerleaders will cheer you and the rest of us will just shake our heads & walk away. Most of us can read you like a cheap dime store novel..

+1

[EPC WN]

Oh man!
Popcorn: check
Cold beer: check
Front row seat to the sweetest 'been there, done that too many times to count' thread ever to be posted on this site: double check
I think I can officially cancel DirecTv now. There's nothing on television this good.
If I could write the end though, I'd be rooting for the beer gentlemen.
Peace,
EPC WN

[gunplumber]

Oh spare us the drama. Waa Waa Waa Gunplumber is so mean.

The illuminating thing is how certain people who profess to be MEN get so butt-hurt when I present the facts without including a massage and a long, warm shower, to placate their fragile egos.

The FACT is, that Mr. Vickers doesn't know what he's talking about. He is propagating a MYTH that originated on a different gun, in a different era, to workaround a problem that has long since been resolved.

How awesome he was in a former life is completely irrelevant. And yes, I know as only those who have been through SF selection can, the true measure of his accomplishments. Having been awesome at one thing in one's younger days does not make one an expert at all things forever. Which is why I limit my posts to those topics on which I am intimately familiar. Which coincidentally is why I am almost always right. But even with my vast experience with the FAL rifle, I've still had a few gaffs.

Like the time I got my wires crossed and posted a stupid speculation (DSA short barrel timing creating the short locking shoulder problem). I got called out on it, and rightfully so (it would result in an excessively large locking shoulder). Being one of the best FAL gunsmiths in the country didn't make my wrong answer right. And Mr. Vickers, having once been a ninja warrior, doesn't make his every utterance beyond reproach.

When someone is full of shit, they are full of shit. When I am full of shit, I am full of shit. Obviously the humor of rewording "you're full of shit" with a more flowery euphemism (the kinder, gentler arrogant bastard) was lost on some. I thought the strikeout was a funny way of saying "let me phrase this in a bullshit euphemism so my trolls won't get their panties in a bind". Like the "b" in subtle, some just don't get it. And some say *I* lack humor . .. . (sigh).

Some people take themselves too seriously and start believing their own hype. I hope to never become one of those.

[ad263210]

It strikes me as hilarious that people on this forum can't take a joke or a playful jab. Both LAV and GP have their opinions, and guess what...... they are just that, opinions.

If you disagree, it is your opinion. But calling for someone to be banned because you didn't apply the correct amount of lube this morning is bullshit.

Personally, I am taking the opinion of a credible FAL gunsmith when it comes to a FAL related subject (not saying LAV is inexperienced on the subject).

[ronpaulFAL]

The point is that I started this discussion as a FAL rookie with a legitimate question and people had to make an argument out of otherwise civil discussion. I appreciate and use dry humor and sarcasm constantly, but it is too easily misunderstood when typed in an email or posted online. When it is not interpreted as intended, it becomes a huge distraction.

I'm just glad I was able to hear the pro and con rationales before everything devolved.

[L Haney]

Originally Posted by ronpaulFAL

the ideal polymer .45

Heh, and y'all thought what Mark said was bad.