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Old March 11, 2012, 17:36   #1
BlackgunCO
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Century C93

Hope to get my c93 from jg this week. Will be checking the bolt gap as soon as I get it. Will also check the barrel pin. Have a feeling that they are all loose. Have a question about how hard it is to press out the barrel and flip it. What type of set up do you need to jig up the receiver? I have access to heavy presses. If barrel does have to come out, I plan on using pennies and a socket. If the barrel just needs to be backed out a tiny bit, is it OK to just drill out the barrel pin hole bigger and use an oversized pin? If i have to flip barrel will set bolt spacing around 0.015 with - 2 rollers so it will give me a lot of life. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that it might be GTG out of the box.
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Old March 11, 2012, 18:15   #2
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I think you're getting way ahead of yourself. Check the gap before and after shooting 200 rounds. Don't mess with the barrel pin until the day comes that the barrel needs removed. Frankly, all the reports I've been reading about the current C93's have been very good.
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Old March 12, 2012, 03:07   #3
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Tomorrow is range day no 2 for me. This C93 is surgically clean and lubbed with the best. I received it last week, and I hope that I got one of the good ones. !!
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Old March 12, 2012, 15:34   #4
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There is hope for us yet!!
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Old March 12, 2012, 16:12   #5
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Ok range report?
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Old March 15, 2012, 10:30   #6
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Just got shipping confirmation from j&g. Hope to be able to report back on it soon Anybody know if all the latest c93s have the front of the reciever welded to the trunion? I'm going to check welds, bolt gap, tripple tree straightness before I fill out the ffl stuff so I can hopefully get an exchange if it is too fubared.
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Old March 15, 2012, 15:52   #7
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Everything I have read lately says they are good to go out of the box. It may depend on the age of the stock the vendor is sitting on.
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Old March 16, 2012, 03:08   #8
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Unless you have the luck of the Irish, although it is close to St Paddy's day, these babies all still have the usual problems. I got mine in just recently from a guy who just ordered 6 in from Century, and the usual problems were encountered.
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Old March 20, 2012, 11:33   #9
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Got mine from J&G this morning. Overall looks pretty good. Problems with mag well being too big. Hammered it into a nice rectangle and mags fit well now. I think it might have a G3 mag catch? It is much smaller than the opening in the mags. Cycles dummy rounds with no problems. Sights seem straight. Barrel is straight in trunion. Bolt group slides back and forth in reciever with no binding. Nice clean welds on reciever. Lower is pretty crappy with offset hole for the selector. The mag well didn't have one side properly fitted to the center block thing so there is a gap (part of the loose mag problem). Good cocking tube gap. Decent bolt gap at .008". Suspect that the barrel pin hole is not true as I gave the barrel muzzle a whack with soft hammer and bolt gap grew by .0005". Will shoot and see if it closes. Furniture is nice looking. Had some welding on the end of the bolt carrier where the recoil spring is. Hole in the front of it is slightly off center. Not sure why this was done? Gun was very dirty with shavings, grease, etc. Appears to have been fired a lot and not cleaned. Bolt #'s matched the locking piece (#8). Will be replacing the lower with a metal HK semi one. Also going to replace the Century hammer, sear, and HK trigger with a set of PTR ones for 922r and better trigger. Forgot to check the tripple tree alignment. Will do that the next time I break it down for cleaning. I think it is a keeper although it might need some tweaking.
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Old March 20, 2012, 15:39   #10
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Here are some pics of the issues. Looks like cocking tube is slightly off center. Tripple tree is tack welded on (one small tack is good). I was able to knock the barrel pin out with a punch and hammer. Will need to drill and use an oversized pin
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Old March 20, 2012, 15:41   #11
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More pics. Overall not too bad for drunken monkeys. I think it will at least go bang over and over.
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Old March 20, 2012, 16:07   #12
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Roller size was 8.02MM. I ordered some +4s to get a little more bolt gap. Will see how that goes.
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Old March 20, 2012, 19:33   #13
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Don't over analyze yet.......... Shoot the damn thing cause soon as you put a couple hundred rounds thru it, it may change. Give it a chance, mine rocks, wouldn't trade it for twice the money.
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Old March 20, 2012, 19:49   #14
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The welding on the front of the carrier tube is unacceptable. There's no way that it is flat across the front. Functionally, if it unlocks it'll probably be OK. Maybe I'm expecting too much out of a newly built weapon.

On edit:

Look at the gas pattern on the front of the bolt. See how it's shiny in a circle around the periphery? Your bolt face appears to be resting on the trunnion rim rather than the back of the barrel. Your gap may be false because the weld on the end of the carrier tube is resting on the cocking handle support. Remove the cocking handle support and recheck the bolt gap with it out.
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Old March 21, 2012, 08:06   #15
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I am watching and learning with great interest. I am also feeling lucky with my purchase, and a few small problems. I wonder whats happened to all the other rifles that went to just "Joes" who wanted to shoot them and just have fun. They did not have all the armourers skills and resources that we have on this forum.
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Old March 21, 2012, 09:55   #16
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For reference, here is a couple of pics of parts that I've had in my shop. The bolt face shows the shiny ring of death from where the barrel was pressed too deep and the bolt rested on the trunnion rim. If you notice the finish just inside the silver ring you can see that early on the bolt was resting on the back of the barrel due to the finish wear but as the barrel shifted forward the trunnion took the majority of the impacts.



This trunnion didn't come from the same rifle but the photo shows the accumulative effects of impacts of the bolt on the trunnion rim. Note how the silver areas of the bolt face correspond.



With regard to your welded carrier tube you have to ask yourself what could have been so wrong with any weapon that required so much material to be added to a carrier that didn't need to be machined afterwards?

I realize I'm the one in the beginning that said these rifles have been getting good reports, but you got a turd.
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Old March 21, 2012, 20:29   #17
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Wonder how I would go about sending it back to be corrected? Through J&G or direct to Century? Hate to get back something that is even worse. Any way to correct the issues? Flip barrel and repress? Press barrel in to the receiver more and redrill pin for oversize? Would think that it only needs to be pressed back a few thousandths? Wonder if they would send me just a bolt carrier? I can do the barrel pressing and drilling. I trust myself more than I do the people who screwed it up in the 1st place. Would they take it back since it bolt gap is in spec? What do you all think?
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Old March 21, 2012, 21:07   #18
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I have never owned a century rifle but have read enough horror stories about them. There should be a toll free customer service number in the box. Call the number and talk to the nice lady about a return authorization number and call tag.
I've heard of people writing a note they put in with the rifle explaining the problem. One fellow went through this process 2 or 3 times, but finally got a great rifle.

Century will arrainge pick-up (call tag) and will deliver the repaired/replaced rifle back to you about 6-8 weeks later.
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Old March 22, 2012, 01:12   #19
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J&G has a 30 day return policy. They'll even send you another example in exchange if they have any. Century may sort it out for you if want to go through the hassle of shipping and waiting. A tough decision for you, you may have to accept that this rifle is a POS and move on. You know PTR's are available for just twice the money, a much better rifle.
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Old March 22, 2012, 10:23   #20
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I checked a few things last night. Seems like it might actually be OK. I took out the cocking tube support and checked the bolt gap. Still the same and the cocking tube gap is within spec. So bolt carrier is not hitting the tube support. I also marked the front of the bolt face with sharpie. The black stuff in the pic was oil and grime as I hadn't cleaned it before the pictures were taken. After letting the bolt slam shut and letting the hammer fall several times the ink was worn off only where the breach face is. Stayed black on the outer area where the trunnion would contact. I also took the bolt carrier and smoothed out the welded area to make it flat. Will hopefully get to go shoot it this weekend. Only issue there really is is the bolt carrier welding, but it shouldn't actually affect the functioning of the rifle. I guess I don't have much to return it for other than that since everything else is within proper specs. I ordered some steel gauge pins. I plan on drilling out the barrel pin hole to a #9 drill and pressing in a .197" pin since the factory pin is not a press fit. Will also add some new +4 rollers. Think it should be GTG once I do these things.
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Old March 22, 2012, 12:37   #21
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One look at that welding and back she should go. IMHO
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Old March 22, 2012, 21:58   #22
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Found more issues. The receiver is out of wack on the bottom. The rear portion is good but the front of the lower opening behind the mag well is almost 1/8" wider than the back. The POS lower that comes with it is also flaired out. I have a HK metal semi lower that wouldn't come close to fitting. Also the back of the mag well is out of square. I was able to work on the upper in a vice and get the lower part of it true so the HK lower would fit. Will have to reweld some of the semi shelf as it is not square with the rest of the receiver. Luckily the rails are square. Mine has a c9310xxx serial #. If you happen to be looking at buying one, be sure and check: the barrel trueness, cocking handle gap, bolt gap, bolt face, roller size, magwell fit and squareness, and the lower gripframe/receiver fit. I also added the +4 rollers and it only gave me .0015" more bolt gap. I am going to use this as a learning tool for the HK platform. Buyer beware on these. I think it will still make a nice shooter but is going to take more work than I expected. Luckily I enjoy a challenge. I will not be beaten by drunken monkeys. The end results will be a dependable tack driver
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Old March 23, 2012, 14:42   #23
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Look at the replacement cost of a bolt carrier. It is one of the most expensive parts of the rifle. I'd at least want it to be right.
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Old March 24, 2012, 17:53   #24
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Wait until you find out that your one year warranty expired three days before you took delivery of the rifle.
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Old March 24, 2012, 18:33   #25
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Think about it.
Some of these rifles require little adjusment and others are a total FU.
I know that you have the skills to fix them, but you should not be big time out of pocket. Swap it out for another one that requires a lot loss work!!
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Old March 24, 2012, 20:59   #26
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Too late. I've already worked on it a bunch. I also found a HK semi carrier to replace the fubared one. The one in it works fine but looks like crap. Pressed in a larger barrel pin. The one in it was already oversized. It measured at 0.1975" and wasn't that tight of a fit. A 0.197 pin gauge went right in and a 0.198" one would start in. Ended up freezing a 0.199" pin and pressing it in. I should have just checked it out before farting with it and returned it. Problem is, I might have got one that was even worse. At least, now I think I have a decent one after working with it for several hours. I'll just chalk it up to experience. I have a Golani that I had to work the hell out off the upper to get the bolt carrier to clear and it runs like a top now. Century does seem to turn out a lot of crap now days. I used to buy a lot of stuff from them over 10 yrs ago with no problems. Been out of the game for a while and their quality/dependablility has gone down hill. Still have some cool rifles for a good price though. Thanks for all the input. Will take it out soon for a range report.
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Old March 25, 2012, 08:39   #27
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Nice knowing how to do things ones self, isn't it. I bet you did it right instead of just getting by like century would have. By-the-way, where did you get the pins and whats your new bolt gap ?
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Old March 25, 2012, 09:05   #28
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http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327207
Got the pins from this link. Gap is just under .009" now. I think with the tighter pin it should hold there.

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Old March 27, 2012, 14:11   #29
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Finally got around to shooting it. Ran 20 rnds of Federal 55 gr fmj and 20 rnds of Tulammo 55 fmj. Went through both boxes without a hiccup. I just function tested shooting at some plastic milk jugs. Seems to be pretty accurate. One problem is I don't know where the brass went I looked all over for the stuff and found none. I'm guessing that the stuff must eject pretty far. I was up on a hill. Must of went way down somewhere. Would have liked to have checked out the casings.
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Old March 27, 2012, 20:07   #30
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Bad news on this gun. The bolt gap shrunk to .003" after only 40 rnds. Tag that came with it has 5/31/11 on it. Maybe still within the CAI warranty? I sent them a ticket requesting that they replace it as it is out of safe spec now. I hope they make good. Think the barrel is not tight or the trunnion is soft. Bolt was also contacting the trunnion on the bottom right corner. If they don't replace, guess I'll have to press out the barrel, knurl it, flip it, repress and repin. That should work unless the trunnion is soft. Think that they used HK trunnions from demills though. Wish me luck. Out of around 10 CAI guns I've owned, this was the 1st lemon. Too bad it actually shoots so well.
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Old March 27, 2012, 20:27   #31
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Bad news on this gun. The bolt gap shrunk to .003" after only 40 rnds. Tag that came with it has 5/31/11 on it. Maybe still within the CAI warranty? I sent them a ticket requesting that they replace it as it is out of safe spec now. I hope they make good. Think the barrel is not tight or the trunnion is soft. Bolt was also contacting the trunnion on the bottom right corner. If they don't replace, guess I'll have to press out the barrel, knurl it, flip it, repress and repin. That should work unless the trunnion is soft. Think that they used HK trunnions from demills though. Wish me luck. Out of around 10 CAI guns I've owned, this was the 1st lemon. Too bad it actually shoots so well.
A friend of mine has one that had 0 gap after 100 rds , CAI had his gun back in around 2 weeks 2000rds later she's holding strong at 15. honestly they are good guns for the price.
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Old March 28, 2012, 09:35   #32
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Will be sending it back for a replacement. Unfortunately they don't pay for shipping They are currently producing more so it is replaceable. Hopefully the new ones have the major issues resolved by now.
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Old March 29, 2012, 10:25   #33
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Good decision and good luck. Hopefully you will get one that requires minimum tinkering. On the plus side you have got them figured out pretty well, and you will have a few spares laying around.
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Old March 29, 2012, 19:13   #34
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Yep, that was a learning experience. Now know exactly what to check and why. Was a great way to get my hands dirty in the roller lock rifles. Hope to get a good one this time. Old one is on its way back right now. Even for a screwed up one it sure was nice to shoot. Will be a while before I get one back in my hands. Will post the results on C93 #2 when it arrives.
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Old April 03, 2012, 10:38   #35
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My 1st C93 did the same thing; bolt-gap went from .017 to .004 after 100rds.

Returned it on my nickel, Century replaced it with one with a different recvr (S/N on mag-well as opposed to in front of rear sight) and a barrel tagged as a Spcl Weapons barrel. Nice cosmetics and fit, but same crappy, incomplete welds. Bolt-gap went from .015 to about .012 - and held steady.

Happy that I was able to re-sell it without a loss.
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Old April 03, 2012, 10:51   #36
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Would be happy to get one that just stays in spec. The out of spec one sure shot nice and was accurate. Not a single malfunction! Wish they would weld the trunnions correctly. Seems like it would be easier for them to just do the correct spot welds Bet they are taking a bath on these as there have been so many returned for replacement. Hoping that they are getting them straightened out finally. They have a new batch in the pipe. Not sure if the new batch has been released yet? Anybody know for sure? CAI confirmed that they are still making more. Wonder if the same subcontractors are making them?
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Old April 05, 2012, 20:03   #37
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Thanks for the post. Informative.

I'm always tempted by the low prices on the CAI guns but it just seems that they don't have any quality controls in place. It's a total gamble - you might get one that's great or you might get a basket case.

My friend purchased two Yugo AKs - one was fine, with just a single mis-formed rivet head, the other was so twisted up it was amazing. Canted front sight, rear sight bent to try to match the front, and the pistol grip bent to one side so that you could kind of line up the sights! It was ridiculous.

CAI does have great customer service and they replaced the twisted one right away with another that was fine.

I just can't understand how a FIREARM manufacturer can get by with such poor QC, though.
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Old April 05, 2012, 21:39   #38
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I was looking at getting one of these right around the time you first posted that you were waiting for your order from J&G. I called them when their web site showed about 50 rifles in stock. The lady said about 15 of those were customer returns due to be sent back to CAI. Soon after they were out of stock at JG and then you updated this topic with your problems. And so I gave up on the idea The C93 definitely looks like a lot gun for $500 but on closer examination I think I'll pass.
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Old April 05, 2012, 21:46   #39
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There are good ones out there. Much better if you can check it out in person. Feeler gauge to check bolt gap. Straight edge to check barrel sights. Check bolt/carrier, etc. Unfortunately no dealer near me has any in stock. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if you could check for the usual problems 1st. Still have to worrie about the shrinking bolt gap after shooting them though.
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Old April 05, 2012, 22:55   #40
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Thanks for the post. Informative.



I just can't understand how a FIREARM manufacturer can get by with such poor QC, though.
Quite easily; CIA farms their build work to the lowest possible bidders, period, end of discussion.

The lowest, dumbest forms that need some kind of work to keep their bills paid, regardless of the lack of effort to do a quality job.

Let me torture an analogy... CIA works on the same business model as does Maronda Homes here in SW PA; use the lowest-bidding subcontracters to build up a home.

Substitute "gun" for "home" in these next few sentances:

Moranda Homes (or in our case - Century Arms ) supply the subs with EXACTLY enough materials to build a home to an exacting specific plan of theirs. No more, no less.
If the subs discover they need something additional - more wood, nails, bricks - they have to provide it themselves - or steal from another build site at lunchtime. Leads to a lot of corner cutting when building a Maronda home so the subs can get the homes cranked out.

The faster the subs get the home done, the faster they get paid and can move on to the next home.

Most good framers, drywallers, electricians, roofers, HVAC guys will not put up with dealing with these piker-azz Maronda mo-fos.
So Maronda ends up hiring whatever drooling, mouth-breathing, flared-nostrel, thick-browed, knuckle-dragging, hair-backed inbred drecks looking for a start in the home-building field, or for ANY employment to feed the family, and so on, etc.

Cent's C93 subcontracters cut corners welding and barrelling the C93s together. They started out with just enough decent parts (including new US barrels) provided by CIA - and then eff'd them all up royally during the build - they cut corners for build SPEED. They don't even properly clean them after building them.

Forget the quality that time and care requires; instead of properly jigging and pressing the new USA barrels in - they shaved them so as to be able to hand fit into the trunnion, and then pinned them and incompletly welded them up. Faster build times but now we have the floating bolt-gap.

And a now unusable barrel...

Bottom line is you get screwed while CIA's subs got paid quicker, and they got needed work to stay afloat.
Cent paid pennies to have the work done FAST so to get product out to J&G, Centerfire, Dunhams - and we got the result that CIA paid for - a screw job.

You won't find Red Jacket or Krebs or RSA or OOW building for Century any time soon. But there is a site sponser right here on the FAL Files that supposedly is the prime CIA contracter for C93s..

Dig around and find the posts.
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Steve in PA, USA - where we are a re-election away from becoming Zimbabwe

Last edited by nfafan; May 07, 2012 at 20:52.
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Old April 06, 2012, 18:14   #41
jjjxlr8
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I understand WHY they do it, I just don't understand how they can get away with it for so long. Someone is going to get injured one of these days.
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Old April 06, 2012, 20:26   #42
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Reading this stuff reminds me how incredibly LUCKY I must have been with the Century CETME clone I bought several years ago. Never a bobble or choke and was as accurate as I am. Used it for awhile until I read HERE about how damn bad/possibly dangerous they were, and traded it off to get my first FAL. I like the FAL, but find myself wishing I had kept the CETME AND got the FAL. The luck of the Irish.....
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Old April 06, 2012, 21:22   #43
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Originally Posted by BlackgunCO View Post
There are good ones out there. Much better if you can check it out in person. Feeler gauge to check bolt gap. Straight edge to check barrel sights. Check bolt/carrier, etc. Unfortunately no dealer near me has any in stock. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if you could check for the usual problems 1st. Still have to worrie about the shrinking bolt gap after shooting them though.
True. Bought my 1st one over the counter at Dunhams, with my blade-style feeler guages. Good gap, straight everything, indiffrent welds but tight. Gap still dissappeared.
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Steve in PA, USA - where we are a re-election away from becoming Zimbabwe
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:44   #44
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Update. Still waiting for the replacement. Said it should ship next week.
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Old April 20, 2012, 21:23   #45
0302
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i saw a c93 at a local store today, maybe i'll lay hand on it tomorrow and check it out, looks nice from 10'. on a side note, just put another 80 rds thru the century sar-2 (ak74) this afternoon with canted front sight and canted gas block, ugly as janet napolitano runs like carmen electra.
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Old April 21, 2012, 02:32   #46
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I have read threads like this on various forums. Its kept me many times from buying a C93. I still want one but just cant risk buying a lemon.

Also I cant seem to find an answer on 10rd magazines for them. As I live in CA
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Old April 22, 2012, 04:49   #47
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Seems like the best thing to do would be to inspect one (or a few) before buying. Not that that's exactly easy sometimes if no one around has any in stock.
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Old April 30, 2012, 19:59   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 762x54R View Post
I have read threads like this on various forums. Its kept me many times from buying a C93. I still want one but just cant risk buying a lemon.

Also I cant seem to find an answer on 10rd magazines for them. As I live in CA
Find a vendor willing to take them apart and sell them as parts kits - you can then block them to 10 rounds using a "perminent" solution (pop rivits and aluminum bars will legally work). As a former Pepoples Republik resident, that is what I did on several different types of mags.
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Old April 30, 2012, 21:33   #49
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Who is making the furniture on these things?

Surplus HK?
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Old May 01, 2012, 00:20   #50
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Originally Posted by Tuscan Raider View Post
Who is making the furniture on these things?

Surplus HK?
The stock and handguard might be Malaysian H&K contract furniture. The lower grip housing though may be US made. I've never seen a German or any other nation contracted HK 33 rifle with a Navy lower with those finger grooves and textures.
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