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Old June 11, 2010, 13:15   #1
Timber Wolf
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How much generator should I buy?

I bought a XDm 3.8 .40 S&W as a to-myself birthday present but feel like I ought to get myself a little more since it is the big 5-0. Feeling kind of guilty about spending more money on guns until I sell a few or twelve, just to free up room in the safe you know. Anyway, I have a 10KW generator, actually a Lincoln Ranger 10,000 welding machine with two 120V & one 50 amp 220V receptacles. It is nice but not exactly portable as in throw-in-the-back-of-the-truck portable. More like get-the-front-end-loader-and-a-chain portable. That is OK but not happening if we are going in the wifeís mini van or just going camping or deer stand building or such and Iím not planning on welding.

So, how much generator do I need/want and which one? The needs I see putting one to are; power outage (a bi-annual occurrence here) when I need to use it all night to run my CPAP (breathing machine, canít sleep without it anymore), camping (very little) and small tools for deer stand building or general projects out away from power. I am definitely going with an inverter for the size, fuel economy, and weight and yes I know that it wonít be cheap. I feel comfortable buying the popular Honda EU series and have heard nothing bad about them.

I canít decide to get the 1000 watt or spring the extra $200 (maybe less) and get the 2000 watt? The 1000 will do 90% of what I will ask a generator to do and on less fuel (not a huge consideration no more then I see running it) and maybe a little quieter too (not sure). And is 20 pounds lighter at <30 vs. <50 for the 2000. The 2000 watt will do 99.9% of what I will ever need a generator to do and render my 10KW an expensive shop ornament (thatís OK). The extra weight is not that big of a deal with the 2000 although probably one of the two deciding factors along with physical size (for storage and carrying/hauling). The 2000 would be better for running an air compressor but I do have a gas engine compressor (wheelbarrow type) for real serious air usage. Also, at only ~8amps the 1000 could be too light for some more serious small tools or simultaneous usage/lighting. So to sum, the 1000 is probably all I really need to invest in but I donít think I would ever be sorry spending a little more on the 2000, until I have to carry it very far. What say you?
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Old June 11, 2010, 13:46   #2
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minimum to run a circular saw would be 2500 watts. compressor ? better be a small one. even then, the startup draw of a compressor is killer. get the EU2000 at least and then you have the option of running two of them in tandem for 4000 watts. i have an EU1000 and love it but i use my 2200 for working away form the grid.
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Old June 11, 2010, 14:14   #3
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Humm, I was not thinking just what start up and running amps on a heavy duty circular saw would be. Here is an interesting link to some requirements: http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/gener...quirements.htm
The 1000 is looking too small. When I think about running anything and needing lights at the same time it looks really small. Amybody have good experience with another brand? Or just go with the safe choice (Honda) and be happy.
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Old June 11, 2010, 15:07   #4
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you'll never regret buying the Honda. don't forget the ability to connect two units together either. there are plenty of EU copies out there at lower prices but when it comes to power equipent, especially generators, you need to buy the one that can be serviced.
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Old June 11, 2010, 18:24   #5
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Keep the big genny for running pumps and heavy amp appliances,and buy the 2000 eu to run sensitive stuff,like computer or flat panel TV. Keep them separate.
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Old June 12, 2010, 04:02   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by flopshot
minimum to run a circular saw would be 2500 watts. compressor ? better be a small one. even then, the startup draw of a compressor is killer. get the EU2000 at least and then you have the option of running two of them in tandem for 4000 watts. i have an EU1000 and love it but i use my 2200 for working away form the grid.
compressor start-up may be reduced by replacing the tube between the pump and the check valve with a longer coiled tube, or even a small tank on a tee. this gives the motor a compressible air chamber to start against, rather than a compression resistant area.
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Old June 12, 2010, 17:41   #7
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The generator condrundom is that you always can see yourself using more if you have it to the point you can't move it. My dad has a Honda EU6500 which is a great generator, but around 4k. He uses it when working around the homestead to run his large compressor, lights, saw, charger for powertools. The cheap 7000Watt Chinese one couldn't run the large compressor and work lights without randomly tripping the breaker. The Honda has never tripped. It is way quieter too. The only downside is that it is indeed heavier. He looses power four or five times a year for a day or so and it allows him to run the wood burning furnance and the freezer, fridge, microwave when he needs to. Moving it isn't a problem as he has frontend loader with backhoe, tractor with loader, 4 wheeler and various trailers for all.

I am saving for an EU3000iSA like my brother has. It weighs about 150 or so lbs full of gas so it is a 2 man lift, but he ran the thing all day for many days while building his new house this summer. His buddy's Northern Tool China generator didn't make it through the summer and had various stuff come loose before the generator head failed. I have also thought about buying 2 EU2000i generators and the parallel cables, which would cost around 300-350 bucks more than a EU3000iSA. Still would have 2000Watts of generator if one failed. One person can easily move one. I want to be able to run my freezer, fridge. microwave intermittantly, and a small AC unit at night if the power is out in the summer and the air handler for the furnace in the winter. Also nice when camping. Could split the purchase in two. You can fix hondas easily as parts are readily available.

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Old June 14, 2010, 09:59   #8
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Having owned a Honda 2000 for several years and using it both in the woods for power tools and at home during hurricane power outages for the fridge, freezer, and fan, I can say with no hesitation: Get the Honda 2000. After about 15-20 minutes of running it full throttle to get the fridge and freezer running cold, I simply switch it to economy mode and let it throttle up and down as needed and it just sips the gasoline.

Oh, and one other thing: get some type of watt meter so you can see what your tools and appliances really pull, then you will know what the Honda can handle at one time. The 2000 can put out 1600 watts indefinately and surge up to 2000 for 30 minutes at a time. Hope this helps.
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Old June 14, 2010, 11:56   #9
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original ??

As big as you can afford; as big as you can handle and as big as you like. IF all the above are met, get one at least twice the size you *think* you may need! Sorta like compressors, garages/workshops and trucks

SUre!! I can't move my 15 Kw unit around too well; but I can sure power more'n a couple circular saws

If I need minimal power on the fly, I'll pick up a little unit from HF and consider it disposable.
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Old June 15, 2010, 14:32   #10
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Anyone have any experience with Generac or Briggs and Stratton? Lowes has them in the 10-15k watt range for a bit over 2 grand. I like the idea of a couple of those little 2k watt Hondas, but I doubt if they'd be able to handle my water heater plus the fridge along with other misc. items like lights, computer and whatnot.
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Old June 17, 2010, 11:04   #11
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My CPAP machine will run for 8 hours off a car battery w/ a 400w inverter

Won't run much longer than that though...
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Old June 17, 2010, 11:54   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuck0411
Anyone have any experience with Generac or Briggs and Stratton? Lowes has them in the 10-15k watt range for a bit over 2 grand. I like the idea of a couple of those little 2k watt Hondas, but I doubt if they'd be able to handle my water heater plus the fridge along with other misc. items like lights, computer and whatnot.
i'm no fan of either and have seen many in the shop that shouldn't have been based on age and use. the engines always seem to outlive the generator.
Generac split off years ago into Generac Portable and Generac Standby. two totally seperate companies. they both tend to exagerate the output ratings in my opinion and fail to mention the lifespan designed into them.
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Old June 17, 2010, 13:55   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by flopshot


i'm no fan of either and have seen many in the shop that shouldn't have been based on age and use. the engines always seem to outlive the generator.
Generac split off years ago into Generac Portable and Generac Standby. two totally seperate companies. they both tend to exagerate the output ratings in my opinion and fail to mention the lifespan designed into them.
Alright, thanks. Is there any brand other than Honda that would be worth considering? I'm fully prepared to pay the money to get that level of quality, but if there's something else that's as good or nearly as good for a bit less money, I'm all ears.
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"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel.
Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you
are ruined." - Patrick Henry

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." -- Samuel Adams

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences." -- C.S. Lewis
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Old June 17, 2010, 14:57   #14
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with me it all comes down to two things. if i don't really need the unit to be uber reliable i don't mind buying low end. .10 / watt. if it fails post warranty i scap it for parts. if i want a go to unit i can count on i have to have a servicing dealer to back it up with parts and service. now you're looking at .30-.40 / watt.
you pay a premium for attributes like lightweight and low noise as evident with the Honda EU series and the Honda EB vs EG series. i would recomend the Mitsubishi line but they have discontinued the power equipment line completely.
i have two Mitsubishi, and two Honda and love all of them. the Mitusu was every bit as good as Honda and about thirty percent less expensive. check with several local power equipment dealers in your area. what do they sell, how long have the sold it, are they factory certified on the generator as well as the engine and how many techs hold such certification. just as an FYI, when i sold Honda i was not required to be certified allthough i was on the engine side. someone selling Honda may not be a generator dealer but a re-seller which is what we are classified at this business. we pay a bit more for the unit
through our Honda engine distributor and are not required to supply warranty services. Mitsubishi required no certification at all and was distributed through my Toro LCG distributor. lots of grey areas at this end of the power equipment spectrum. you might even look at Yamaha and Kawasaki as they have a decent service base, don't rely soley on power equipment to exist and are widespread.
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Old June 17, 2010, 15:07   #15
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Good advice, thanks, Flopshot.
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"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel.
Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you
are ruined." - Patrick Henry

"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." -- Samuel Adams

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences." -- C.S. Lewis
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Old June 17, 2010, 15:22   #16
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see what Dynomike has to say as well.
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Old June 17, 2010, 16:44   #17
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Look at the Yamaha dual-fuel generators at the site below. Not sure if they still have tri-fuel versions available (gas, propane, natural gas), but I know they have propane/gas versions. The mods are Yamaha approved and still have the factory warranty.

Propane lasts almost indefinitely, burns very clean, very little noxious/dangerous fumes, and can power Mr. Buddy heaters and propane stoves. Great for an all-in-one camping fuel.

Yamaha Generators
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Old July 11, 2010, 08:36   #18
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I looked at whole house with transfer switches, ect. Conveint? Yes, Expensive? Yes. And they require a lot of fuel. This is what I decided . IMHO- There is really no one perfect size generator for all seasons. Instead of one generator, I have three. Each generator is a different size. I can use one or more as needed, where needed. My electrical load varies quite a bit during each 24 hour cycle.
My main generator is a Honda EX650(excellent quality, quiet). This will power lights, laptop and TV while using very little fuel. When I need to run the refrigerators, AC or heater, then I start up the other generators for a few hours only.
In most power failures, the 650 watt Honda was all I needed.
One gallon of gas would last for 6-8 hours.
Some things you never have enough of:
extension cords
gasoline
flashlights

Practice, practice, practice. try some dry runs, in the dark. I also use Sta-bil in my gas.
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Old July 11, 2010, 14:04   #19
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There are some good Genny's listed here already. I have a 5500 watt Porter-Cable and it's been through hell and still works like a champ. During a massive ice storm here we were without power for 16 days and it ran every day and never missed a lick. It would power everything except for the hot water heater,so in the evening I shut most everything down except for a couple of lights and ran the water heater until it kicked off for showers and then shut it back off. The generator always got shut down at night since we didn't need it for anything at night anyway.

During the day while it was running we could plug in the charger and re-charge batteries for flashlights,radio etc. BTW, Sony Eneloop (sp?) beat the hell out of the other name brand rechargeable batteries I had on hand at the time. They can be stored fully charged,loose very little charge over time and will run longer than other brands. Good stuff,get some!

I had 55 gallons of treated gas stored (Pri-G makes Sta-Bil seem like water btw) which was a life saver since none of the gas stations in town had power to pump fuel until several days after the event and then there were folks standing in LONG lines when a couple finally opened up.

Something I didn't have enough of on hand was oil. When you run a genny that much you'll need to change the oil fairly often and I only had a couple of quarts on hand, and oil,spark plugs etc. sold out in town damn quick. I keep plenty extra of them all on hand now.

I'm in the process right now of adding a couple of deep cycle batteries and an inverter to go along with the generator. The batteries will be for lights and other accessories at night and will get re-charged as needed while the genny's running during the day.
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Old July 12, 2010, 19:59   #20
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When I upgrade from the dinky stuff with a drop cord, it will be to propane. Today's gasoline is shit. My diesel does last, at least for an old piece of iron, so that would be my second choice.
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Old July 13, 2010, 07:44   #21
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Had a 3 hour power outage yesterday. I am prepared but then generator would not start. So I opened case, got tools, cleaned out dirty carb, then started right up. Took 20 minutes to repair in broad daylight. I would not want to attempt this in dark. I may add carb cleaning to annual routine maint.
If this had happened at night, my backup plan is 2 other generators ready to go.
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Old July 13, 2010, 10:42   #22
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Smokey,

that's exactly what I did with the batteries and inverters. I went to Radio shack after I figured the wattage for my TV and satellite box in the bedroom and living room and got inverters large enough to power them.

I used three UPS batteries in each room and they would run all night no problem. And like you said, during the day when I ran a genny I would put a charger on them. WORKED GREAT!!!

Also, about spare parts. Get some plugs, fuel and air filters to keep on hand.

AND RUN THOSE GENNYS about once a month. Turn the fuel off and let them run out. It really does make a difference.

For those that have gennys with battery start it's a good idea to get one of the small battery maintainers to keep on them. they don't cost much and sense when the battery needs a little charge to keep them up. WELL WORTH THE CASH!!!
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Old July 23, 2010, 12:20   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by fnogger
My CPAP machine will run for 8 hours off a car battery w/ a 400w inverter

Won't run much longer than that though...
I thought about getting an invertor to put on the tractor. Would not really matter if the battery in it went dead, can always pull it off or jump it from the F-150 or my little Black & Decker jumper.
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Old July 23, 2010, 14:16   #24
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Originally posted by SmokeEater2
There are some good Genny's listed here already. I have a 5500 watt Porter-Cable and it's been through hell and still works like a champ. During a massive ice storm here we were without power for 16 days and it ran every day and never missed a lick. It would power everything except for the hot water heater,so in the evening I shut most everything down except for a couple of lights and ran the water heater until it kicked off for showers and then shut it back off. The generator always got shut down at night since we didn't need it for anything at night anyway.

During the day while it was running we could plug in the charger and re-charge batteries for flashlights,radio etc. BTW, Sony Eneloop (sp?) beat the hell out of the other name brand rechargeable batteries I had on hand at the time. They can be stored fully charged,loose very little charge over time and will run longer than other brands. Good stuff,get some!

I had 55 gallons of treated gas stored (Pri-G makes Sta-Bil seem like water btw) which was a life saver since none of the gas stations in town had power to pump fuel until several days after the event and then there were folks standing in LONG lines when a couple finally opened up.

Something I didn't have enough of on hand was oil. When you run a genny that much you'll need to change the oil fairly often and I only had a couple of quarts on hand, and oil,spark plugs etc. sold out in town damn quick. I keep plenty extra of them all on hand now.

I'm in the process right now of adding a couple of deep cycle batteries and an inverter to go along with the generator. The batteries will be for lights and other accessories at night and will get re-charged as needed while the genny's running during the day.
I didn't think about the oil and plugs thing... good info. My Honda 2000EU runs like a champ, is quiet and can be linked to get 4000. I really like it a lot as it is easily carried anywhere.
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Old July 23, 2010, 19:41   #25
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AND RUN THOSE GENNYS about once a month. Turn the fuel off and let them run out. It really does make a difference.

Excellent advice. Wish I would follow it...I got a bunch of dirt bike carbs to clean out-----left em with fuel in them....too long.

Note: If you run them dry, the fuel mix goes very lean right before it starves completely for fuel and the engine will run hot. Try to dump the fuel bowl using the drain plug or screw some carbs have built in at the bottom of the bowl, that way avoiding the lean-run heat build up. If it is of concern.

Good thread, thanks.

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Old July 28, 2010, 14:17   #26
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2 years ago, I pulled the trigger on a 17KW Guardian whole house propane powered genset, with ABT panel. This was the last move in a complete propane changeover. ( A natural gas line runs down the highway right of way, a block from my house, but can only be tapped for commercial uses at this time) I had already done the stove, cloths dryer and water heater. All running from a 200 gal. above ground tank. $3400.00, installed turn key.

It has the auto run feature. Once a week, it starts, warms up, takes the house load, shifts the load back to the grid, cools down and resets. The only required maintenance is a yearly oil/filter and air filter change, spark plug check and start battery test. (the built in charger runs from the grid, shifts to the gen set when the ABT opens. a very simple and reliable setup.

Prior to this install, I had been using 4 portable gen sets. 2 gas, 2 propane. I have installed a 2 cyl, Onan generator, salvaged from a dead motor home, on my 1 ton tow rig and mounted the others on a small trailer that I have used as a rapid response vehicle type deal here locally. (south west Florida) Charlie passed less than 15 miles south of me, I wasn't ready then, now I am.

Florida power and light (known locally as Fla. flicker and spark, lol ) provides us with as many as 3 grid drops a week in the rainy season, most are less than 10 minutes, but can last up to 12 hours.

With the 17 KW, I can even run my A/C and well pumps, seamless.

Admittedly, this is overkill, most of the time, but when you live in the land of "hurrycains" You pay more attention to survival issues, year round. I keep enough energy on site to run 10 or 12 days, with no outside help. ( The local gas company service trucks promise delievery within 48 hours in a disaster situation, I just smile and nod, I'll soon be adding another 200 gal. tank)

I was doing fine with the portables, but it was a lot of work keeping up with them. Now the wife and I are long of tooth and grey of muzzle, I wanted a set up that would be easy for her and the grand boys, if I was not here.

Just some things to think about when planning for your homestead.
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Old July 28, 2010, 23:30   #27
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This is the kind of thread that needs to be a sticky...
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Old July 29, 2010, 13:09   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Wolf


I thought about getting an invertor to put on the tractor. Would not really matter if the battery in it went dead, can always pull it off or jump it from the F-150 or my little Black & Decker jumper.
The 400w inverter made our lives much easier during 3 weeks of no power (1.5 weeks at a time) during the '05 'cane hits here in N Florida. Was enough to keep our fridge going, power a few small fans, a couple of flourescent shop lights, the tv and satellite. Kept us sane with 2 kids under 5 ...
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Old July 29, 2010, 13:19   #29
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How do you guy's deal with the problem of too many neighbors wanting to plug into your generator? Around here, they see the lights or hear the genset and come bangin' on the door. Paul
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Old July 30, 2010, 09:56   #30
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Originally posted by red caddy
How do you guy's deal with the problem of too many neighbors wanting to plug into your generator? Around here, they see the lights or hear the genset and come bangin' on the door. Paul
Post a few heads on pikes around your place, the neighbors won't come around then. Seriously, I have thought about this very issue and it is one of the reasons I want a smaller (quieter) generator besides my big 10KW rig. Although then they will want to borrow it because it is small and light. I can hear it now "when you get your freezer & refrigerator pulled down and nuke a weenie and some mac & cheese can you bring the genny over?". I will say, "I have plenty of propane for the grill, just bring the steaks out of your freezer over here and we will have a party!". This is one issue that will test everyone involved during a disaster senario.
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Old July 30, 2010, 12:56   #31
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I've got a single mom neighbor that I'd help with no problem, I've actually already figured her and the kid into my short-term prep plans. the other neighbors....not so much.

I have a neighbor that said when we loose power, he's just gonna run an extension cord into my gen. I told him the fee for that is 3 gallons of good gas an hour. He looked at me kinda funny and said...Uh....sure. He's gonna be surprised if/when he shows up with his extension cord.

I've tried to help him out and show him what he needs to do, but he's a young guy and spends all his money on stereos and toys....
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Old August 13, 2010, 23:31   #32
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I'd recommend that anyone thinking about generators visit the www.generatorsales.com website. They sell every type and size generator from 1K to 100K in diesel, gas, propane/NG, tri-power, bio-diesel. The only downer is that they are located in Maine.
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Old November 25, 2010, 20:24   #33
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Milsurp generators

All of us on this forum are shooting milsurp weapons. We like them because of their functionality and reliabilty (and looks too). So why not a milsurp generator? In most cases they are trailer mounted. The trailers are usually 3/4 ton, very stoutly constructed and are pincer hitch towed. Generators are diesel.

I've been considering a 5 kw myself, and have never seen one sell for more than $400. 10kw and 15kw models are also available. I walked past a running 10kw this week (I work at Fort Lewis), and noted that it was a very quiet. They can be purchased through government liquidators. www.govliquidation.com

http://www.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
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Old November 27, 2010, 23:24   #34
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In my short and limited experience as a power production tech I learned that the electronic governors for the newer generators are of the devil, and the LCD screened B models are the biggest pieces of trash ever invented. The older models (MEP-004 MEP-005 MEP-006) were much more reliable, easier to work on, but louder.

The best 15k generators I saw are the john deere 4 cylinder commercial models. Easy to service, parts are available at every john deer farm supply dealer, run for effing ever.

We have one of those JD 15k's on one of the ferrys I operate in the Summer. It has ran 10 hours a day 5 days a week 7 months a year for 11 years. It's had 4 water pumps, multiple hoses, and 2 injector pumps replaced along with regular oil and filter changes. The little sucker just keeps running like a champ. We had the same exact generators in Kuwait that had been running for years with no problems. Easiest generator to service that we had. I'd buy an older used one in a heartbeat if I had the need and funds.
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Old July 31, 2011, 10:35   #35
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gens

Old thread newer technology. Anyone look at the new solar generators? Expensive but no fuel concerns and depending on the model right now you can take a tax reduction for owning one. Also you can connect them to your existing power grid and start using them to offset your electricity costs. Goole solar generator and it will pop up info. These would be a great addition to coventional Gen!
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Old March 07, 2012, 03:19   #36
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What about cobbling up a steam powered generator. If theres anything we have in abundance here in the Pacific NW, it is wood and water.
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Old September 08, 2012, 20:41   #37
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I have an EU2000. Bought it right before Ike hit. The eye went right over my house. We were without power for 19-20 days. I ran the Honda just about the whole time. I was able to run a 5,200 BTU window unit at night that sufficiently cooled my sleeping quarters. It would also run the refrigerator at the same time. I plugged the deep freezer in during the day, and cycled between the appliances we needed to use (t.v., computer, fans, etc.). I know this is hard to beleive, but even during hard usage, the EU2000 ran at least ten hours off of ONE GALLON of gasoline...and it was quiet. I started out with 20 gallons of gasoline, and didn't need fuel until the last couple of days without power.

The EU2000 would not power the washer, drier, or electric stove. However, I had several cylinders of propane prepared for the event, and I cooked outside on a portable camp stove.

My neighbor had a 5,000 watt genset with a briggs and stratton engine on it. It sounded like a B-52 taking off and it used 3-4 gallons of fuel per hour. Yes, it ran more appliances, but he ran out of fuel the first day.

The only thing I ran out of was beer.
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Old September 09, 2012, 19:08   #38
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I have seen good deals on Craigslist. You need to be patient and of course know what you're looking at. Honda seems to be the way to go for the smaller, portable gen (for a # of reasons).
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Old November 12, 2012, 19:25   #39
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I picked up a 20kW diesel for $150...fixed with a piece of string and a bolt...
Hooked it to the house...plumbed it into my 275 gallon heating oil tank...

That was the week before the big power out in VA....it did just fine...

Small gens are good but you have to remember they are temporary...not designed for long term use...that is where the bigger gens come into their own...slower RPMs, run cooler, last longer.
If you are planning 24/7 ops big, slow revving engines run longer.
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:26   #40
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It is better to have multiple generators,a small 1k to 2.5k 1800 rpm to run at night to keep things cold. A larger 10K to 20k 1200 to 1800 rpm diesel gen that will run on multi fuels,diesel,trans fluid,filtered waste oil,cooling oils. for the long runs. A ground muffler is one of the best ways to keep the noise down. Older Onans were built to run 24/7 you can find them very reasonable on craigslist now that the feeding frenzy has slowed down. I have a 1947 4cyl onan that runs like a top they were made to run forever I bought it for $150.00
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