Need help with Para trouble...Update post #26

EMSflyer · July 07, 2011, 11:53

I've converted my all Imbel to an 18" para using the DSA para kit.

It runs 100% until I try to use a scope mount.

So far I've used three different ARMS mounts and now the DSA para scope mount.

Each time a scope mount is used the bolt carrier will get stuck in the extreme rear of the receiver, several mm aft of the BHO catch. I won't happen after every round fired. Mostly after the last round from the mag is fired, but once when there were still several rounds remaining in the mag.

At first I thought the bolt carrier was binding on the rivets at the rear of the ARMS scope mount and I'm sure it was to some degree due to the scratches on the bolt carrier. In fact you could get it to bind up by cycling the rifle by hand. So I sent back the ARMS mount and ordered the DSA mount.

When the DSA para scope mount is installed you can cycle the bolt carrier by hand with ease so I expected good results. However, I had the same results when firing the rifle at the range two days ago.

I did turn down the gas regulator thinking that maybe the rifle was over gassed
and it did not make any difference. The rifle is well lubricated. All the screws on the DSA para mount were tight. All locking plates were flush. The bolt carrier travels freely inside the receiver with the para scope mount installed.

So I don't know what to think about this. Should I try a recoil buffer?
Maybe grease on the receiver rails instead of oil? I'm using Mobil 1 oil for lube
so it's pretty slick in there already.

Could the recoil spring be binding inside the hole in the bolt carrier? The guide rod on the DSA para mount is shorter than the standard para top cover I think.

This malfunction will occur regardless of ammo type used. I've used Winchester 7.62 NATO, Rememington .308 FMJ and Federal 150 gr soft point, all with same results.

With the standard top cover the para runs 100%. But she does not like the scope mounts for some reason. I'm really bummed about this since I want to be able to mount my Aimpoint on the para and pig hunt with it.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

EMSflyer

4 brigada · July 07, 2011, 13:39

I worked on a customers that had the same discrepancy. I started the troubleshooting by removing the top cover and replacing it with a FAL para cover. And see if it duplicates the problem. Put everything back to the optimal settings (gas settings , ect). On a para that I owned I had to shorten the recoil springs because the were binding up, I suggest this as a last resort if nothing else works. Since you have done that, you have your answer the problem is with the mount, since it runs 100% with the para cover. One other question are the springs being used the same?

Cheers

**Michael64** · July 07, 2011, 15:42

Have you checked the inside of the scope mounts to look for any wear marks?

EMSflyer · July 07, 2011, 18:39

Yes and no wear marks inside DSA scope mount.

specs · July 07, 2011, 19:20

Have you checked the plates the screws go into? I have had a screw come loose and let the plate shift, bolt goes back, but not foreward.

EMSflyer · July 07, 2011, 21:44

Plates were flush and screws were tight.

Bolt carrier moves freely forward and aft inside receiver with bolt and recoil spring removed.

EMSflyer · July 07, 2011, 21:45

Recoil spring is the same when using scope mount or standard para dust cover.

4 brigada · July 07, 2011, 22:48

I dont know what to tell you, you use 4 known good in this combination, para cover, recoil springs, para bolt carrier and bolt and rifle functions 100%. You replaced a know good (para cover) with the ARMS scope mount cover, rifle fails. As impossible as it may seem, the problem lies with the scope cover mount. Either as you pointed out, that the guide rod is shorter, which could cause the recoils springs to become bound or kink, with itself or in combination with the springs ,the guide rod and the spring guide (part inside the para springs) or as many pointed out the mounting system of the ARMS mount. Not much left to check if the bolt carrier/bolt moves freely with the ARMS scope mount cover installed.

EMSflyer · July 07, 2011, 23:49

It malfunctions in the same manner with the ARMS or the DSA scope mount but runs fine with the standard DSA para dust cover.

Very confusing.

I've got an email out to the Tech Support Folks at DSA.

Thanks for the comments,

EMSflyer

EMSflyer · July 10, 2011, 17:06

Went to the range again today and the para continues to run 100%
with the standard para dust cover.

Did a few drills with lots of mag changes. No malfunctions of any kind.

Also I used the 5 pocket Rhody chest rig made by 101abn327 and it's awesome as well. A really cool retro yet very usable piece of kit.

I'm still scratching my head as to why the DSA scope mount is causing the bolt carrier to bind in the receiver. Maybe the DSA Tech Rep can shed some light on this for me.

So I'm rockin the para with the iron sights for now and it's good to go.

Thanks for all the feedback so far,

EMSflyer

**fal fiend** · July 10, 2011, 17:27

My buddy Derby fals bought a dsa para kit like what u have several years back, did same thing, was binding up, we kept sanding on its inside till it ran fine, then painted it.

EMSflyer · July 11, 2011, 08:41

Exactly which surfaces did you sand?

101ABN327 · July 11, 2011, 14:07

I have never found a non military scope mount that was worth buying... They are all aluminum junk!

101

EMSflyer · July 11, 2011, 14:26

101ABN327 you may be on to something there !!

I've been thinking about finding an old para stanag mount and getting
someone to modify/mount a rail to it so I can mount my Aimpoint.

Or, I could get another para dustcover and silver solder a rail to it.

At any rate it would be a fun project to think about.
I know some awesome aircraft mechanics who would be able to help me out.

By the way I really like the chest rig you made for me!
Used it during the mag change drills yesterday.
Everyone with a FAL should get one.

Cheers,

EMSflyer

emcroy · July 11, 2011, 17:10

Don't know if it'll help, but I had an ARMS para mount and the guide rod was blunt on the end instead of being smooth and rounded.

This setup would bind whenever I would go to install the cover/carrier goup on the rifle. I put a radius on the end of the rod and polished it up, runs fine now.

As some one posted above, if the recoil rod is shorter I think that would aggravate the situation as well.

**LaConservationist** · July 11, 2011, 17:39

Quote:

Originally posted by 101ABN327
I have never found a non military scope mount that was worth buying... They are all aluminum junk!

101

Just my .02 and I will hush......a PARA does NOT need a SCOPE mount any how! Made to be, light weight, nimble, and quick and DEADLY!!!

Silently, Swiftly, DEADLY!! Don't need NO STINKING OPTICS!

Glad to at least hear your rifle runs great with standard BATTEL equipment!

LaC

EMSflyer · July 11, 2011, 20:38

I agree 100% that a para does not need an optic and I proved
that to myself again yesterday at the range. I shot it quite well
if I do say so myself.

However, once one uses an Aimpoint extensively you find that
it works so wonderfully that you want one on all your semi auto
rifles.

So right now the para is lean and mean but I will
figure out a way to mount that Aimpoint somehow.

Cheers,

EMSflyer

4 brigada · July 11, 2011, 23:18

I have a DSA stripper clip extreme duty PARA. It put some wear marks on the reciever, nothing major. But I took it off and it sits in a box now. I didnt have any problems with it other than what I mentioned already. I did have to play with the plates moving them and then tightening them evenly checking to make sure that the bolt carrier moved smoothly. Then it would bind up when the charging handle was pulled back, I removed 3mm from the spring guide on each end the reason I did this was because I noticed the it had stress cracks on the one end, 4 coils from each of the inner springs just from one end so there still a flat spring area to fit against the spring guide then measured the inner springs + guide assembly and cut the coils of the outer spring on one end to match the the length. In your case , since you say that the spring guide rod seems to be short, I wouldnt mess with the spring guide to make it shorter. Worked on my Para and a FAL pistol I built. The reason for the removal, I got a PRK mag release shroud, and I unpinned the magazine. I live in the PRK.

**gobbler** · July 12, 2011, 02:26

just had the same issue with a DSA para scope mount, my trouble was the spring was binding & not letting the bolt cycle fully. the rod was not going into the metal spacer in the spring. I took the cover off, lubed & re-positioned the spring into the spacer.
gobbler

C nova · July 12, 2011, 15:02

I wish someone made a 1.5 inch rail that mounted in the carry handle slot so you could mount an aimpoint and not need to change out the top cover.

EMSflyer · July 14, 2011, 12:48

I was mistaken about the length of the guide rods
on the standard para dust cover and the DSA para scope mount.

They are very nearly the same length with the scope mount
guide rod being only slighty shorter and not enough to make
any difference.

However, I did notice that one of the inner recoil springs
was not securely fitted over the end of the small metal spacer
that connects the two springs.

Also I discovered that one end of each inner recoil spring
is smaller in diameter. Is the smaller end of each spring intended to
slide over the spacer thingy? Seems like the smaller end of the spring
stays fixed to spacer much better. Anyone else notice this with their para?

Thanks for all the help so far guys,

EMSflyer

L1A1 59 · July 15, 2011, 11:44

My para w/Arms mt runs perfect with a Buffer tech buffer.

Tim

EMSflyer · July 15, 2011, 12:58

Did you ever try the ARMS mount without the buffer?

IRONWORKER · July 15, 2011, 13:08

Sarco has NOS para scope mounts (i believe they are Argie)

L1A1 59 · July 15, 2011, 14:52

I have never shot an L1A1 or FAL(and never will) without a buffer. The thought of the metal to metal contact makes me cringe. Some of you will say that It was not designed for a buffer...So what.....It may make the rifle last longer.

All of mine run PERFECT WITH THE BUFFER.

Carry on.

Tim

EMSflyer · August 07, 2011, 01:50

Well I made sure the guide tube between the inner recoil springs was
installed correctly and I also installed the recoil buffer.

Shot the para Saturday and had zero malfunctions. I'll keep shooting it like this and see if it's a solid fix for my bolt carrier binding issue.

At least now I can use my Aimpoint again.

Thanks for the ideas guys,

EMSflyer

July 07, 2011, 11:53	#1
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Need help with Para trouble...Update post #26 I've converted my all Imbel to an 18" para using the DSA para kit. It runs 100% until I try to use a scope mount. So far I've used three different ARMS mounts and now the DSA para scope mount. Each time a scope mount is used the bolt carrier will get stuck in the extreme rear of the receiver, several mm aft of the BHO catch. I won't happen after every round fired. Mostly after the last round from the mag is fired, but once when there were still several rounds remaining in the mag. At first I thought the bolt carrier was binding on the rivets at the rear of the ARMS scope mount and I'm sure it was to some degree due to the scratches on the bolt carrier. In fact you could get it to bind up by cycling the rifle by hand. So I sent back the ARMS mount and ordered the DSA mount. When the DSA para scope mount is installed you can cycle the bolt carrier by hand with ease so I expected good results. However, I had the same results when firing the rifle at the range two days ago. I did turn down the gas regulator thinking that maybe the rifle was over gassed and it did not make any difference. The rifle is well lubricated. All the screws on the DSA para mount were tight. All locking plates were flush. The bolt carrier travels freely inside the receiver with the para scope mount installed. So I don't know what to think about this. Should I try a recoil buffer? Maybe grease on the receiver rails instead of oil? I'm using Mobil 1 oil for lube so it's pretty slick in there already. Could the recoil spring be binding inside the hole in the bolt carrier? The guide rod on the DSA para mount is shorter than the standard para top cover I think. This malfunction will occur regardless of ammo type used. I've used Winchester 7.62 NATO, Rememington .308 FMJ and Federal 150 gr soft point, all with same results. With the standard top cover the para runs 100%. But she does not like the scope mounts for some reason. I'm really bummed about this since I want to be able to mount my Aimpoint on the para and pig hunt with it. Any ideas? Thanks, EMSflyer Last edited by EMSflyer; August 07, 2011 at 15:11.

July 07, 2011, 19:20	#5
specs Registered FALaholic #: 63211 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Clay NY Posts: 67	Have you checked the plates the screws go into? I have had a screw come loose and let the plate shift, bolt goes back, but not foreward. __________________ Upstate NY, in the land of the enslaved.

July 07, 2011, 22:48	#8
4 brigada Registered FALaholic #: 17849 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,575	I dont know what to tell you, you use 4 known good in this combination, para cover, recoil springs, para bolt carrier and bolt and rifle functions 100%. You replaced a know good (para cover) with the ARMS scope mount cover, rifle fails. As impossible as it may seem, the problem lies with the scope cover mount. Either as you pointed out, that the guide rod is shorter, which could cause the recoils springs to become bound or kink, with itself or in combination with the springs ,the guide rod and the spring guide (part inside the para springs) or as many pointed out the mounting system of the ARMS mount. Not much left to check if the bolt carrier/bolt moves freely with the ARMS scope mount cover installed. Last edited by 4 brigada; July 07, 2011 at 22:54.

July 10, 2011, 17:27	#11
fal fiend Curio & Relic Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 7091 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Indiana USA Posts: 2,267	My buddy Derby fals bought a dsa para kit like what u have several years back, did same thing, was binding up, we kept sanding on its inside till it ran fine, then painted it. __________________ In memory of a true friend, Derby Fals 1956-2007/ I'm a Contributor, u should be 1 too, support the Fal board.

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July 07, 2011, 13:39	#2
4 brigada Registered FALaholic #: 17849 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,575	I worked on a customers that had the same discrepancy. I started the troubleshooting by removing the top cover and replacing it with a FAL para cover. And see if it duplicates the problem. Put everything back to the optimal settings (gas settings , ect). On a para that I owned I had to shorten the recoil springs because the were binding up, I suggest this as a last resort if nothing else works. Since you have done that, you have your answer the problem is with the mount, since it runs 100% with the para cover. One other question are the springs being used the same? Cheers Last edited by 4 brigada; July 07, 2011 at 13:45.

July 07, 2011, 15:42	#3
Michael64 Veteran Member Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 4237 Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 1,314	Have you checked the inside of the scope mounts to look for any wear marks?

July 07, 2011, 18:39	#4
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Yes and no wear marks inside DSA scope mount.

July 07, 2011, 21:44	#6
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Plates were flush and screws were tight. Bolt carrier moves freely forward and aft inside receiver with bolt and recoil spring removed.

July 07, 2011, 21:45	#7
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Recoil spring is the same when using scope mount or standard para dust cover.

July 07, 2011, 23:49	#9
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	It malfunctions in the same manner with the ARMS or the DSA scope mount but runs fine with the standard DSA para dust cover. Very confusing. I've got an email out to the Tech Support Folks at DSA. Thanks for the comments, EMSflyer

July 10, 2011, 17:06	#10
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Went to the range again today and the para continues to run 100% with the standard para dust cover. Did a few drills with lots of mag changes. No malfunctions of any kind. Also I used the 5 pocket Rhody chest rig made by 101abn327 and it's awesome as well. A really cool retro yet very usable piece of kit. I'm still scratching my head as to why the DSA scope mount is causing the bolt carrier to bind in the receiver. Maybe the DSA Tech Rep can shed some light on this for me. So I'm rockin the para with the iron sights for now and it's good to go. Thanks for all the feedback so far, EMSflyer

July 11, 2011, 08:41	#12
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Exactly which surfaces did you sand?

July 11, 2011, 14:07	#13
101ABN327 Registered FALaholic #: 19486 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: OKLAHOMA Posts: 5,993	I have never found a non military scope mount that was worth buying... They are all aluminum junk! 101

July 11, 2011, 14:26	#14
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	101ABN327 you may be on to something there !! I've been thinking about finding an old para stanag mount and getting someone to modify/mount a rail to it so I can mount my Aimpoint. Or, I could get another para dustcover and silver solder a rail to it. At any rate it would be a fun project to think about. I know some awesome aircraft mechanics who would be able to help me out. By the way I really like the chest rig you made for me! Used it during the mag change drills yesterday. Everyone with a FAL should get one. Cheers, EMSflyer

July 11, 2011, 17:10	#15
emcroy Registered Contributor FALaholic #: 33420 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: IL Posts: 1,016	Don't know if it'll help, but I had an ARMS para mount and the guide rod was blunt on the end instead of being smooth and rounded. This setup would bind whenever I would go to install the cover/carrier goup on the rifle. I put a radius on the end of the rod and polished it up, runs fine now. As some one posted above, if the recoil rod is shorter I think that would aggravate the situation as well.

July 11, 2011, 20:38	#17
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	I agree 100% that a para does not need an optic and I proved that to myself again yesterday at the range. I shot it quite well if I do say so myself. However, once one uses an Aimpoint extensively you find that it works so wonderfully that you want one on all your semi auto rifles. So right now the para is lean and mean but I will figure out a way to mount that Aimpoint somehow. Cheers, EMSflyer

July 11, 2011, 23:18	#18
4 brigada Registered FALaholic #: 17849 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,575	I have a DSA stripper clip extreme duty PARA. It put some wear marks on the reciever, nothing major. But I took it off and it sits in a box now. I didnt have any problems with it other than what I mentioned already. I did have to play with the plates moving them and then tightening them evenly checking to make sure that the bolt carrier moved smoothly. Then it would bind up when the charging handle was pulled back, I removed 3mm from the spring guide on each end the reason I did this was because I noticed the it had stress cracks on the one end, 4 coils from each of the inner springs just from one end so there still a flat spring area to fit against the spring guide then measured the inner springs + guide assembly and cut the coils of the outer spring on one end to match the the length. In your case , since you say that the spring guide rod seems to be short, I wouldnt mess with the spring guide to make it shorter. Worked on my Para and a FAL pistol I built. The reason for the removal, I got a PRK mag release shroud, and I unpinned the magazine. I live in the PRK.

July 12, 2011, 02:26	#19
gobbler Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 44154 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 2,766	just had the same issue with a DSA para scope mount, my trouble was the spring was binding & not letting the bolt cycle fully. the rod was not going into the metal spacer in the spring. I took the cover off, lubed & re-positioned the spring into the spacer. gobbler

July 12, 2011, 15:02	#20
C nova Registered FALaholic #: 61228 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 270	I wish someone made a 1.5 inch rail that mounted in the carry handle slot so you could mount an aimpoint and not need to change out the top cover.

July 14, 2011, 12:48	#21
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	I was mistaken about the length of the guide rods on the standard para dust cover and the DSA para scope mount. They are very nearly the same length with the scope mount guide rod being only slighty shorter and not enough to make any difference. However, I did notice that one of the inner recoil springs was not securely fitted over the end of the small metal spacer that connects the two springs. Also I discovered that one end of each inner recoil spring is smaller in diameter. Is the smaller end of each spring intended to slide over the spacer thingy? Seems like the smaller end of the spring stays fixed to spacer much better. Anyone else notice this with their para? Thanks for all the help so far guys, EMSflyer

July 15, 2011, 11:44	#22
L1A1 59 Registered FALaholic #: 5065 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix,AZ Posts: 308	My para w/Arms mt runs perfect with a Buffer tech buffer. Tim

July 15, 2011, 12:58	#23
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Did you ever try the ARMS mount without the buffer?

July 15, 2011, 13:08	#24
IRONWORKER Registered FALaholic #: 48581 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Millspring NC Posts: 2,652	Sarco has NOS para scope mounts (i believe they are Argie)

July 15, 2011, 14:52	#25
L1A1 59 Registered FALaholic #: 5065 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix,AZ Posts: 308	I have never shot an L1A1 or FAL(and never will) without a buffer. The thought of the metal to metal contact makes me cringe. Some of you will say that It was not designed for a buffer...So what.....It may make the rifle last longer. All of mine run PERFECT WITH THE BUFFER. Carry on. Tim

August 07, 2011, 01:50	#26
EMSflyer Registered FALaholic #: 2936 Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 769	Well I made sure the guide tube between the inner recoil springs was installed correctly and I also installed the recoil buffer. Shot the para Saturday and had zero malfunctions. I'll keep shooting it like this and see if it's a solid fix for my bolt carrier binding issue. At least now I can use my Aimpoint again. Thanks for the ideas guys, EMSflyer