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Old August 20, 2009, 23:43   #1
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Arrow Receiver rail mods improve feeding

Finished up another one tonight, looks so good I may have to charge myself.

Trying out some new Spray-on Dry lube, it kinda went where I wasn't lookin and got where I didn't want it.. I hope the stains will come out?

Thought I might mention I have not touched the rails at all forward of the case neck on either of the two I have done so far..
Using a few different mags while I check my progress there simply has been no need to remove anything up front..




LINK to the Original GIILLIIEE Mod...

http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiill...GIILLIIEESRAIL/
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Old August 20, 2009, 23:52   #2
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I read that as "Gayified" and figured you had painted another rifle "Jeep Pink" .....


Looks like you did a good neat job mate, well done ...
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Old August 21, 2009, 01:35   #3
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good god ....let the file cool down !!!....hehehe

try an acid brush loaded with PLUS -P lube "RIG"tm...just a "light" coat on the rails and C lugs....will give ya another 12% more CHING hehe....works good !!!

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Old August 21, 2009, 15:40   #4
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Another one done and ready for the range.. Think I've got a handle on this now, but my Finger is kinda sore..

There is definitely a variance from one receiver to the next, so far I have done a DSA, DCI, & a Century.. I think the DSA required the least work but not by much, it was also the last one done and may have been easier for that reason as well....





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Old August 22, 2009, 09:42   #5
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Hey, Mike?
You didn't by chance take any 'Before' pictures, did you?

Nice lookin' work, btw.

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Old August 22, 2009, 10:23   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by GW870
Hey, Mike?
You didn't by chance take any 'Before' pictures, did you?

Nice lookin' work, btw.

GW
YUP, sure did... This is the first one I did and it's my new Build using a Century Receiver.. The 3 have been pretty similar really but like I said the last one seemed the easiest....

Before:




And after:



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Old August 22, 2009, 10:46   #7
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Pardon my ignorance, but what are we suppose to be looking for? Congrats on the new build.
Thanks.
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Old August 22, 2009, 11:24   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by ggiilliiee
thats easy ...on a stock rifle ...(if) when it feeds it makes this sound ....
KERRRRSLLLCCHHLAAKKSSCCRRRAPPEEDD WWHAMMMBBBBOOOMMM...I CANT FIND MY LEGGS ...I CANT FIND MY LEGGS ...SSSCRRAPPEE WWHHHUUUUUMMMMPPP. unngggghhh..5 INCH GROUPS ...

THATS WHEN YA KNOW .....HHE

WANNA HEAR ....CHING .everytime .this is what ya gotta do ....
Damn, I wish I spoke ggiilliiee. I definitley need an interpreter.
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Old August 22, 2009, 11:43   #9
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Opening up the rails in the receiver. It supposedly allows better feeding from the magazine.

I don't understand the "I can't find my legs, I can't find my legs" thing either but he's been saying it for years.....I just figured it was a ggiilliiee thing.
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Old August 22, 2009, 11:56   #10
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From what I can discern it giilliieefication is replacing an empty mag for a full one.
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Old August 22, 2009, 11:56   #11
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Does any one here understand ggiillee speak?
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Old August 22, 2009, 13:08   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIG552
Opening up the rails in the receiver. It supposedly allows better feeding from the magazine.

I don't understand the "I can't find my legs, I can't find my legs" thing either but he's been saying it for years.....I just figured it was a ggiilliiee thing.
Ahhhh! I see. Excellent. Thanks for the interpretation. Looks like a fairly easy mod, and one that actually makes sense.

Hey ggiilliiee, Zip Bing-Slap POW baby!!!! ...hehe.

I either said, "Great mod, thanks for the suggestion!" or "Your head is brown like my horse"...not really sure which.
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Old August 22, 2009, 14:38   #13
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Oh, y'all leave giillee alone before y'all have Jen fussin' at him again!

So, Mikey, essentially what you've done is open the rails even with
the mag lips from the points to just back of the shoulder? Right?

Those were Great pics, man. Thanks!

GW

(And, Gillee? Keep on with the good tips, dude)
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Old August 22, 2009, 17:18   #14
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Here are some more. Before I did the rails I needed to have the gas set real low, now I never run it on less than 5.





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Old August 22, 2009, 17:41   #15
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ya be nice ..i just came out of a bad case of scizophrenia.........

but were both ok now ....
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Old August 22, 2009, 17:57   #16
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I did that a while ago.
It only takes a few minutes and it runs much smoother now.


I never needed to fiddle with the ejector, until I installed the scope mount. Now it's getting beat up.
I'll mess with that before I head out shooting again.
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Old August 22, 2009, 18:30   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randall
Pardon my ignorance, but what are we suppose to be looking for? Congrats on the new build.
Thanks.
Randy
Thanks for the Props on the Build, the rifle runs great (more on that in another thread)..

Okay the best way I can explain it is to have you visualize the mod.. I think the very best way to do that is for one to remove the Top Cover, B/BC, and then insert a Mag with several rounds in it.. It will quickly become quite obvious that each round (from either side) contacts the bottom of the RAILS "BEFORE" it pops up in the correct position for the feed lips to hold it and the B/BC to strip it when it goes into battery..

This Mod simply removes just enough metal on the rails to follow the contour of the Mags feed Lips, thus allowing the rounds to POP up into the prper position and NOT force each and every round to be forced out from under the rails..

I think my Before and After PICS show this pretty well although I need to take PICS of the next one with rounds in the mag for the BEFORE PIC to realy show what I am trying to explain..


Quote:
Originally posted by GW870
Oh, y'all leave giillee alone before y'all have Jen fussin' at him again!

So, Mikey, essentially what you've done is open the rails even with
the mag lips from the points to just back of the shoulder? Right?

Those were Great pics, man. Thanks!

GW

(And, Gillee? Keep on with the good tips, dude)
Basically yes, but as I mentioned above I have NOT touched the rails FORWARD of the Case mouth on any of the receivers done so far.. On my examples the Rails have NOT impeded the mag at any point forward of the Case mouth,Bullet crimp area so nothing was needed there at all..

I am GLAD to see some other PICS here, it seems others have done the Mod and although slightly different in appearance well done just the same..

IMHO this is a great mod and it simply makes sense to me, allowing the rounds to pop into the proper position W/Out hitting the rails seems to be a no brainer..

FWIW, I tool 4 Rifles to the range today.. Three of them just modified one f of those a Brand New build.. The two rifles ran great, and I would say were in fact smother then before, the third (new build) rifle also ran great but I have no previous range tests to compare that one too.. All I can say there is that function for a brand new build was quite good and I'm fuggin happy as Pig in shit with it..
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Old August 22, 2009, 18:52   #18
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99% of ya will notice your soft points not getting decapitated too ..another one of the bonuses ..if yer still whakin points mike ..ya may need to pull a tad up front ...

great description ..


there are some pics in the sticky up top too ...under Radio

i usually go for it like Mike,and take it rite to the mark first time ....but remember sometimes it wont take much to get it to fly .....as mike said just at the wide profile and an inch forward will get it most times ..
take a little test alot is the best bet ...if your aprehensive about the mo-de-fication
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Old August 22, 2009, 19:26   #19
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Ya know what Randy, I have to say before we went to the range I loaded up 40 rounds of a handload I have been working on for several weeks..
Of that 40, 20 were 147 gr FMJ's, the other 20 were Sierra 150 gr SOFT Points..
While the rounds have functioned fine to date, they shot the BEST (by far) out of my M1A's and did show some deformation in the FAL's..

Sooo today the SOFT points shot friggin awesome and I gotta say I was pretty surprised.. I shot a few rounds and then removed the mag, ejected a chambered round so I could take a Look-Ce at what I had..

Well guess what, I'm NOT gonna say the lead soft point was pristine but Sumbitch it looked DAMN good for runnin up an over the feed ramp..
It was scuffed but not fuggered all up at all.. Was this directly related to the mod??? Well I can't say for 100% but I can tell you the group I shot (only 50 yards) impressed me fer sher..

I simply can't see anything bad about this Mod unless you get nutz and take too much metal off.. As Ggiilliiee stated, GO SLOW, make a few file swipes and re-check with the mag... I have found a Purple Sharpie and a sharp 3-sided file is the shizzle fer me..
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Old August 22, 2009, 19:46   #20
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Mike .ya buddy thats one of the benefits ....most ive assisted with this all have the same results ..better groups ,less gas ,and no more bullet tip damage, or the chance of knocking the bullet out of the cannalure .
.it aint that strong ...if ya think about the fact that ya got an 18lb spring shoving on it with a ramp crash ...dam, a good collet system with a bullet in it wont take that ...now imagine how easy it is to cleave the end of a clad bullet ...OFF!!! ...quite a bit of force ta do that ...

thats what i said about taking a bit up front ..it may stop even more of the "scuffing "...
the round after opening rail tends to "climb" and go to the center of the mag from either side and miss the ramp as its being pushed out by the bolt under real fire .... ...the bit up front may be defeating that movement ...
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Old August 22, 2009, 20:31   #21
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I think I'm going to give this a try. I have been an electrician, millwright, and a machinist. I am all about anything, that spells reliability, and improved function.

Is there anyone out there that can tell me don't do it, and tell me why?

Don
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Old August 23, 2009, 18:05   #22
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I did it and it worked great, so I would say do it - just go slow and measure often
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Old August 23, 2009, 21:46   #23
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You are not removing much material. About 1/16".
Between that and rolling the edges makes for easier chambering.

I did it before firing.
540 trouble free shots the first time out.
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Old August 23, 2009, 22:16   #24
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what happened to ...541 ???


longhair ..just watch the left front rail width ....for the underside bolt support ....go slow

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Old August 24, 2009, 01:11   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by ggiilliiee
what happened to ...541 ???
It was next in line on the next trip out.
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Old August 24, 2009, 13:16   #26
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Old August 25, 2009, 16:58   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by DYNOMIKE

YUP, sure did... This is the first one I did and it's my new Build using a Century Receiver.. The 3 have been pretty similar really but like I said the last one seemed the easiest....

Before:
Dynomike, I'm damn glad you posted these pics. I can see that the feed ramps on my gun are way too shallow, not like yours which start right at the mag. Mine are over 1/16th inch above the mag. I think this may be contributing to my feed problems.
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Old August 25, 2009, 17:36   #28
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My Pleasure Roger, I hope that we can help you get your rifle running like it should...

PICS always help me so I figured they may help others as well..
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Old August 25, 2009, 21:52   #29
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I'm lookin for serious CHING Points so continuing with my mods, tonight I polished the rails on my new CENTURY build..
Get your SUNGLASSES on BOYZ.. (Keep the RAYBAN'S on a string though)...





Baby the B/BC slide in the receiver lot Butter on ICE!!



Also measured the distance from the rails to the top of the receiver..





Left side measured very close and may be damn near exact if I could hold the caliper in the exact same way on each side.. Also checked the measurement all the way up (Rear to Ft) and it was the same.. I was pleasantly surprised by this..



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Old August 27, 2009, 16:30   #30
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That looks like a good idea! But then, I will triple check my rifle to make sure it makes sense to do on MY rifle.

But then again, if Ghillie said it I would not have noticed as I can't stand that illiterate writing style he is so fond of.

My homebuild functions and groups very well. I probably wouldn't attack it unless it fails to feed or extract.
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Old August 27, 2009, 16:55   #31
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im not a writer..writers just blow drivel that has no use when yer rifle dont cycle ...if you can fix yer rifle with the keyboard let me know ... .im a machinist .
.but then i too thought the stockers were runnin fine too ...i know different now ...couple other folks too ..IE its hard to explain down hill skiing to someone who lives in FL...ends up dick and jane style of writing ..as im trying to acheive yer subteranian level ... of which you complain ..... go figure

here ...mine thoust rifleest shooteth twiceth as fasteth as thine slug ..verrily

...annnnnnddd scene .....
//.
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Old August 27, 2009, 17:02   #32
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For the reason you stated above IE: Making sense for each rifle..
I made sure to take both before and after PICS.. It was quite plain to see the restriction by the rails as they were indeed hanging over the mag..

FWIW, I have other FAL rifles and until recently had never messed with any of them.. They all function and shoot fine and are all well within what I consider FAL accurate.. But the more I thought about this mod the more it just made sense..

Initially I was only going to do my build, I did it pretty much on the cheap and figured WTH... If I can build the rifle and improve it's function at the same time I was willing to give it a go.. As I approached the mod I did what I could to educate myself on what actually I was looking at/for and once I grasped the idea it was kinda like a light bulb ya know..
Thinking about previous range trips I actually did have scratches on some of my brass after firing, noted it before and just dismissed it??...

Anyway pop the top cover off, remove the B/BC and insert a mag with a couple rounds in it.. My guess is that you wil very quickly realize what all this is about..

I have no idea where the mod originated, I have always assumed ggiilliiee figured it out and have no prob giving him the credit although I think I did read somewhere him saying it had been around for 25 years?? Ggiilliiee, & Andy C both gave me some insight and tips and I appreciate that..

If this thread is helpful and guy's are able to use the info that's great..
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Old August 27, 2009, 19:12   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by ggiilliiee

here ...mine thoust rifleest shooteth twiceth as fasteth as thine slug ..verrily

//.

........................ ....................... ........................... ....................

u r something else man !!!!!! ... one of a kind no doubt ...

ETA: don't know why I'm laughing ... ... I just realized I own a couple of Slugs ...
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Old August 27, 2009, 19:26   #34
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thanks man ...who the heck would ya want sittin around the campfire ..me or stephen hawkin ...im way more fun ...hehe
hawkin cant light farts ....
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Old August 27, 2009, 21:11   #35
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Quote:
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thanks man ...who the heck would ya want sittin around the campfire ..me or stephen hawkin ...im way more fun ...hehe
hawkin cant light farts ....
Sure ya can, just gotta get someone to squeeze the Bag for him..
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Old August 29, 2009, 16:45   #36
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saw mikes project at work today at the range and i must say that it ran flawlessly very nice job mike!!! always great to see mike and the boys w/loaded05 at the range shooting fals w/other stuff(dont know all the different rifles he's got), but another great day...cbr
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Old August 29, 2009, 19:51   #37
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Originally posted by cbr954fz1
saw mikes project at work today at the range and i must say that it ran flawlessly very nice job mike!!! always great to see mike and the boys w/loaded05 at the range shooting fals w/other stuff(dont know all the different rifles he's got), but another great day...cbr
Thanks Bud and thanx again for your help, I really appreciate the assitance and use of the tools...

YUP, the MUT (CBR named it) runs like a raped ape, in fact she runs and shoots awesome..
The rail polish helped I'm sure but I also polished the feed ramps the other night so as Ggiilliiee would say there aint NO "KERRRRSLLLCCHHLAAKKSSCCRRRAPPEEDD WWHAMMMBBBBOOOMMM...I CANT FIND MY LEGGS ...I CANT FIND MY LEGGS ...SSSCRRAPPEE WWHHHUUUUUMMMMPPP. unngggghhh.."

All I can say is TWO words, "CLICK CLACK" Cause man when she's runnin that's all you will hear..

Last group of the day fired @ 100 yds, W/Opens, rested, and Mag fed.. I "think" it's 15 rounds but I'm sayin 14 since I did not count my shots.. I do know I had no drops though so in the one square there is either 6 or 7 Shots.. Since I can't say 100% for sure I'll call it a 14 round group and I say she shoots just fine.....



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Old September 04, 2009, 21:13   #38
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FTF issues with Entreprise Rec

I'm struggling with this issue right now. I have an Imbel metric parts kit built on an Entreprise receiver which refuses to feed correctly. I have started the rail modification discussed above. So far, no joy, but I haven't fully extended it to the scribe lines. I do notice that the only thing contacting the cartridge is the magazine feed lips. Seems that the bolt face picks up the rear of the cartridge enough to jam it into the feed ramp/chamber face, then drops the rear of the cartridge and rides up over the brass to become fully jammed just behind the shoulder of the shell. Different mags = same result. This thread gives me hope that I can fix this.

I did a really good job (for an amatuer) on the finish, going all the way with the spray and bake on coating. So here I am with a metal file going to town on the receiver.

I keep thinking my feed ramps are the problem. I'll see if I can get a pic posted.

Thanks for the input!






And one last one with both my builds, one DSA (unfinished brl) and the standard with the Entreprise rec above:

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Old September 05, 2009, 08:55   #39
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leanman1~
It looks like you may still have some overhang of the rails at the back section of the round.. I'm sure you have done this but to illustrate it best load a couple rounds in a mag and insert, it should be easy to see where the rail hangs over..
Check BOTH sides by removing a round and bringing the next one up under the rail..

I have noted some slight differences in the mags so when I am doing the mod I insert a couple diff mags to be sure I only take off as much as I need to..
I try to follow the contour of the mag but again only removing enough metal to match the mags feed lips.. If I try 10 mags a few will be almost exact, and a few will be slightly under or slightly over but that seems to be fine..

Post #7 has PICS that show before and after and should be useful.. I also did another rifle the other day taking pictures along the way as a sort of tutorial.. However until I get my puter issues resolved I can't get the PICS up since my DIGI Cam softwear is not loaded in this machine....

You may also want to polish the rails, and the feed ramps.. NO metal is removed on the ramps on my guns I just polished them with a polishing tip in my dremel.. On the rails I have found a flexible "FINE" Sanding pad from 3M and it works really well to not only get things smoothed up but also for removing the sharp edges left from the file.. I then use another polishing tip and compound to finish up the rails and ramps..

HTH..
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Old September 05, 2009, 09:56   #40
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I get the gist of it but have a question:

How about polishing the top inside edges of your mag "lips" that typically have an edge, sometimes a real sharp edge. Wouldn't that help out as well?
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Old September 05, 2009, 10:12   #41
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Yea the mags do have an edge on them & I can't see how it could cause any harm at all knocking that off.. In fact I think it's a good idea..

I have considered the mags as another thing to look at and I will take the edge off a couple before I shoot next weekend....

This sanding pad stuff I found (My BIL has a custom Cabinet Shop and I got it from him) will be perfect for getting to the inside of the mag lips..
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Old September 05, 2009, 10:21   #42
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Gonna try the rail mod and see where it gets me haven't had feed probs but I'm still getting brass shavings even after 1,000 rds. I'll take some pics before and after and see want yall think.
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Old September 06, 2009, 23:00   #43
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tried again

I read all through this thread, a few others on the gggiliileee mod, and also one over at arfcom. Excited and motivated again, I ran a few different mags through the receiver I worked on. I have a 5 rd DSA new mag that I purchased just in case I ever cared to take mine whitetail hunting.
It ran 3/5 rounds through, chambering fine! Some progress is demonstrated with even the small amount of sanding I've done. I have not deburred the filed areas, and haven't done anything with the feed ramp polishing or the rails.
I did jam one round hard enough to remove my bullet from the neck in a dummy round. DANG, that's pretty stout for a parts kit spring that's as old as I am. I have a replacement spring kit for each of my FAL's, but haven't used them.

My more recent DSA build ran ok when I test fired it, but did have a few FTF's, so I'll be looking to mimick this mod on that platform.

I hate having $800+ and many hours in a weapon that doesn't function properly. Glad it isn't just my build skills. Thanks again for input and advice.

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Old September 07, 2009, 08:33   #44
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In the areas you have filed I would knock those sharp edges off for sure..
Polishing the rails really makes things smoother and it does not take long..


After doing 4 rifles so far I think I can do one from start to finish including polishing the rails & ramps in about an hour and a half without rushing anything.. The last one I did was an IMBEL receiver and I think it was easier then the DSA.. Taking my time and checking along the way the end result seems well worth the effort..
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Old September 07, 2009, 08:37   #45
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Good Stuff !! ...

ETA: Think we can get this in the form of a "Sticky" ... Mods ... ?

ggiilliiee ain't got time to post pics and teach the heathen among us ...

somebody (GP) said he was kooky anyway so we won't bother him ... this is good stuff Mike !!

make it a Sticky please ... so's I don't have to remember ... so's I can see !! ... ggiilliiee !! ...
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Old September 20, 2009, 15:19   #46
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Gents again if this is helpful I am glad to have made the effort.
In keeping with my original intent of getting this info out there I decided to do another rifle and kinda note the before, during, & after of the process...

This rifle is a Custom job built by DAVE at Defensive Creations and Finished by Ricketts.. It was a cherry Kit with a cherry barrel cut down, threaded and crowned, then assembled on an IMBEL receiver... More on the build later...

Okay in this PIC top cover has been removed as well as the B/BC, a Mag inserted W/Rounds to show exactly what I started with....



Same point but a diff angle clearly showing the rails, and ramps and the relationship to the mag.



This is the same as above except the Mag is empty.. In this PIC I have kinda laid out the where I will remove metal to match the mags feed lips. Nothing special just a Purple sharpie.



In this PIC I have completed the LEFT side and then insereted a Mag to see where I am at.. I am happy with this and will move to the RIGHT side..



In this PIC I have stripped ONE round to show the relationship of said round and the RIGHT side of the receiver rails. IMHO that sharp edge hanging out over the round just can't be good?



Right side completed with Mag in place.. I am pleased with this and will move on to removing the sharp edges left from the file and on to polishing the rails..



Rails & Feed ramps Polished this rifle is done..





Oh I almost forgot to post a PIC of the tolls I used..
B&D Wizard, Sharp Triangular File, Couple Tips for the Wizard, 3-M Fine Sanding pads, and some Rouge/Polishing stuff..



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Old September 20, 2009, 15:26   #47
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A yellow upper? Holy hell, have you been taking lessons at the TracyBallard School of Gun-Art?
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Old September 20, 2009, 15:55   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by AndyC
A yellow upper? Holy hell, have you been taking lessons at the TracyBallard School of Gun-Art?
Oh no, this was WAAAAY before that.. There is a Good story behind it though..
May have had something to do with some of this..
No matter though, I like it...

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Old September 22, 2009, 13:26   #49
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is that yours MIKE ...???



I
FREEKIN
LIKE IT ....!!!!!!


that is one of the coolest designs since my buds zebra striped 38 super ....sweeeeeet.
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Old September 22, 2009, 15:16   #50
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ha, what's the name of that pattern?
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