New lightweight receiver idea

dougjones31 · July 28, 2004, 13:15

Ok.....I have been accused of being crazy before, so go ahead.

Aluminum receivers go Kaboom!

Titanium, ceramic, space alloys are too expensive!

The key strength needs to be from the barrel ring back to the locking shoulder. Lets borrow a page from the AK or AR design. We need a receiver that is just a barrel extension that is steel then we can use aluminum or ceramic for the rest of the receiver.

Opinions?

krombig · July 28, 2004, 14:32

You're crazy

MisterJG · July 28, 2004, 15:08

I should work, kinda like most of the polymer pistol frames on the market. They all have metal reinforcement plates inserted in the high stress areas. Pretty much a threaded front section with milled carrier rails extending the full lenght with the locking shoulder recess, latch catch and the receiver pivot. This complete assemble would then be molded into a polymer jacket. The remaining rear section (minus carrier rails) of the receiver, mag well, ejector/BHO block (aluminum) would be of polymer. I think it would be possible to shed around 20-25% of the weight. Okay, I've been thinking about it for a while.

crazyk2758 · July 28, 2004, 15:14

Idea is sound from a theoretical standpoint, but who is going to engineer, design, prototype and actually manufacture and market it? Obviously, if this were easy to make or engineer, came in at a price point of $200-$250 it would sell like hotcakes to many members here on the Files. But who else? That would be the $64,000 question, that a manufacturer would have to ask and have answered. I for one would buy one for every FAL I own/will own. I do not believe in safe queens.

But three receivers does not make for a compelling arguement for manufacturing on the scale that we are talking about.

crazyk2758 · July 28, 2004, 15:16

Quote:

Originally posted by MisterJG
I should work, kinda like most of the polymer pistol frames on the market. They all have metal reinforcement plates inserted in the high stress areas. Pretty much a threaded front section with milled carrier rails extending the full lenght with the locking shoulder recess, latch catch and the receiver pivot. This complete assemble would then be molded into a polymer jacket. The remaining rear section (minus carrier rails) of the receiver, mag well, ejector/BHO block (aluminum) would be of polymer. I think it would be possible to shed around 20-25% of the weight. Okay, I've been thinking about it for a while.

Considering you are including the mag well in your proposed design, I think you would save upwards around 40% on the weight, more depending on how large the rails need to be.

Antares · July 28, 2004, 16:32

Smells like a job for Todd@ORF

dougjones31 · July 28, 2004, 16:34

I was thinking 40-50% weight reduction. Cost could be <$200. Milling would be minimal due to the reduction in steel ......we can cast 2 side plates that would attach to the barrel extension to complete the FAL "look". Casting would be cheap enough. While we are at it we can make the receiver utilize a quick change barrel. Just make an adapter for the barrel and make the receiver barrel ring larger so that the adapter can be sturdy.

dougjones31 · July 28, 2004, 16:36

I think the ejector would have to be attached to steel.

The Armour · July 28, 2004, 16:39

I think you guys have stumbled on to a good Idea. To save $$ you would need a good investment casting operation to minimize the amount of final machining necessary to make this work. The barrel ring, locking shoulder area, and the carrier rails are all that should be required.Once the machining is complete then it would need to be injection molded around the steel portion. I am going to guess 30% as far as weight reduction goes. If you know anyone with some CAD/CAM experience and/ or some mech engineering backround you can get them to design it and download it to disk. Then just shop it around to various job shops to get the best price. It would be expensive for the first few mainly because making molds isn't cheap, but once the bugs are worked out I can see some Real Profit in this idea. All it takes is someone pasionate enough about the idea and some $$???? I hope you or someone runs with this idea. Good luck

Para Driver · July 28, 2004, 16:46

This kind of "insert molding" technology is easy enough to come by. I have seen it done on a large scale for some electronic parts. I'm not a wiz kid, but molds that have bonded inserts are common.

I would guess $500k-1M for all the tooling, serious cash.....

MisterJG · July 28, 2004, 18:07

Well if we are going to add a quick change barrel. I would also add a provision for a true free float handguard. Modeled on the lines of Ed Vandeburge's design but attached to the receiver or an AR based design.

BTW - As a matter of public record DougJones31 and I are the brain-children of this design. Patent Pending....

crazyk2758 · July 28, 2004, 18:15

With all the machinists that are members of the Files, I find it hard to believe that a commitee could not be formed to make this project happen. Meeper the king of conversions for the FAL is also a major resource.

Makes one wonder.

tac-40 · July 28, 2004, 19:23

Why not copy Calvary Arms idea and make a polymer lower and a composite upper? Doug has the right idea about using a breech block or trunion for the barrel. Rails and an ejector plate, similar to the AK ejector, could be imbedded into the polymer.

Check out CALVARY ARMS for a polymer lower on an AR. Don't see why it can't be adapted to the FAL. I would bet that you could get a 50% weight reduction on the total upper and lower recever assemblies.

mojo_matic · July 28, 2004, 21:13

Aluminum alloy can and is made into many different compositions with different physical characteristics.

I've been a mountain biker for a good 9 years. First aluminum mountain bike frames (6061) were just as heavy as a well built steel frame (with various metalogy itself). These aluminum frames were MUCH stiffer...and when you crashed, the brittle metal would SNAP!

Fast foward a decade. We have aluminum alloys from people like Easton which are super light, strong, and not nearly as brittle. A 2.6 pound aluminum mountain bike frame is not uncommon, and can take a great deal of abuse. This is achieved by adding other alloys to the aluminum, as well as heat treatment characteristics....some aluminum alloys actually get stronger at lower temperatures and cooled at sub-freezng temps. to stabilize.

Granted, most of the aluminum is tubing. But high stress areas like the bottom bracket (where your crank arms bolt up) and headset (tube where your handlebars are attched to your fork/front wheel) are machines from a solid chunk of metal.

I'm sure that there is an aluminum alloy which has the strength/weight ratio would make it suitable for an FAL receiver.

What type of aluminum alloy was used for the Williams receiver?

dougjones31 · July 28, 2004, 21:26

Now .....if we could combine that with a composite barrel then we could get a FAL down under 5 lbs.

OK...now I am dreaming. But it would sell!

I can have these receivers made. My next door neighbor works for a machine shop that does alot of work for FN. They have the machinery and expertise to take it from disc to product. BUT I am scared to ask what the price would be to get it set up.

MisterJG....can you draw the barrel extension on autocad? I will let them look at it if somebody can draw it up. They have the ability and knowledge to test the stresses and adjust the dimensions to get it strong enough. I still lean toward the idea of making 2 side plates that fit together to give it the standard FAL look. And either side could be replaced to repair damage where as an injection molded plastic receiver would have to be replaced if you dropped it and took a big chunk out of it.

Oh...I already have a design for a true free float handguard system. Anybody can add this design to their gun without any modification. Look for it soon...coming to a Market Place near you!

The Armour · July 30, 2004, 16:43

I just had another thought on how to help reduce the cost of the first prototype. You could use one of the many 80% receiver castings out there. like the ones from TAPCO. They are about $15, and that will take care of a big chunck of the molding. Just machine the areas that you need and remove all the excess that you don't want.Then take it to an injection molding place along with say an IMbel receiver and ask them to mold the machined piece to look like the IMBEL. t will atleast give you something to start testing with. Good luck Doug, and let us know how things go.

crazyk2758 · July 30, 2004, 16:45

Quote:

Originally posted by dougjones31
...I can have these receivers made. ...

Sign me up when you start production!

mrbonecrusher · July 31, 2004, 12:55

Two words; Carbon Fiber.

havoc1969 · July 31, 2004, 14:41

sounds like a great idea doug, when it gets going I will be in for a few, perhaps have you build me a carbine,,,,,,, of course after you get done on the build you are doing for me now,,,lol

July 28, 2004, 13:15	#1
dougjones31 Registered FALaholic #: 6967 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,282	New lightweight receiver idea Ok.....I have been accused of being crazy before, so go ahead. Aluminum receivers go Kaboom! Titanium, ceramic, space alloys are too expensive! The key strength needs to be from the barrel ring back to the locking shoulder. Lets borrow a page from the AK or AR design. We need a receiver that is just a barrel extension that is steel then we can use aluminum or ceramic for the rest of the receiver. Opinions? __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

July 28, 2004, 15:08	#3
MisterJG Registered FALaholic #: 8723 Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 962	I should work, kinda like most of the polymer pistol frames on the market. They all have metal reinforcement plates inserted in the high stress areas. Pretty much a threaded front section with milled carrier rails extending the full lenght with the locking shoulder recess, latch catch and the receiver pivot. This complete assemble would then be molded into a polymer jacket. The remaining rear section (minus carrier rails) of the receiver, mag well, ejector/BHO block (aluminum) would be of polymer. I think it would be possible to shed around 20-25% of the weight. Okay, I've been thinking about it for a while. __________________ Just a gun guy

July 28, 2004, 15:14	#4
crazyk2758 Registered FALaholic #: 13644 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 269	Idea is sound from a theoretical standpoint, but who is going to engineer, design, prototype and actually manufacture and market it? Obviously, if this were easy to make or engineer, came in at a price point of $200-$250 it would sell like hotcakes to many members here on the Files. But who else? That would be the $64,000 question, that a manufacturer would have to ask and have answered. I for one would buy one for every FAL I own/will own. I do not believe in safe queens. But three receivers does not make for a compelling arguement for manufacturing on the scale that we are talking about. __________________ "Life is an intelligence test." - Unknown "Difficulties exist to be surmounted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live." - Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr. "Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle." - De re militari (390 B.C.) by Flavius Vegetius Renatus crazyk2758

July 28, 2004, 16:34	#7
dougjones31 Registered FALaholic #: 6967 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,282	I was thinking 40-50% weight reduction. Cost could be <$200. Milling would be minimal due to the reduction in steel ......we can cast 2 side plates that would attach to the barrel extension to complete the FAL "look". Casting would be cheap enough. While we are at it we can make the receiver utilize a quick change barrel. Just make an adapter for the barrel and make the receiver barrel ring larger so that the adapter can be sturdy. __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

July 28, 2004, 16:36	#8
dougjones31 Registered FALaholic #: 6967 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,282	I think the ejector would have to be attached to steel. __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935

July 28, 2004, 14:32	#2
krombig Registered FALaholic #: 12335 Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 215	You're crazy

July 28, 2004, 16:32	#6
Antares Banned Marketplace Infractions FALaholic #: 5916 Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 2,368	Smells like a job for Todd@ORF

July 28, 2004, 16:39	#9
The Armour Registered FALaholic #: 10778 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lexington, KY. Posts: 460	I think you guys have stumbled on to a good Idea. To save $$ you would need a good investment casting operation to minimize the amount of final machining necessary to make this work. The barrel ring, locking shoulder area, and the carrier rails are all that should be required.Once the machining is complete then it would need to be injection molded around the steel portion. I am going to guess 30% as far as weight reduction goes. If you know anyone with some CAD/CAM experience and/ or some mech engineering backround you can get them to design it and download it to disk. Then just shop it around to various job shops to get the best price. It would be expensive for the first few mainly because making molds isn't cheap, but once the bugs are worked out I can see some Real Profit in this idea. All it takes is someone pasionate enough about the idea and some $$???? I hope you or someone runs with this idea. Good luck

July 28, 2004, 16:46	#10
Para Driver Registered FALaholic #: 6350 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 6,297	This kind of "insert molding" technology is easy enough to come by. I have seen it done on a large scale for some electronic parts. I'm not a wiz kid, but molds that have bonded inserts are common. I would guess $500k-1M for all the tooling, serious cash.....

July 28, 2004, 18:07	#11
MisterJG Registered FALaholic #: 8723 Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MD Posts: 962	Well if we are going to add a quick change barrel. I would also add a provision for a true free float handguard. Modeled on the lines of Ed Vandeburge's design but attached to the receiver or an AR based design. BTW - As a matter of public record DougJones31 and I are the brain-children of this design. Patent Pending.... __________________ Just a gun guy

July 28, 2004, 18:15	#12
crazyk2758 Registered FALaholic #: 13644 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 269	With all the machinists that are members of the Files, I find it hard to believe that a commitee could not be formed to make this project happen. Meeper the king of conversions for the FAL is also a major resource. Makes one wonder. __________________ "Life is an intelligence test." - Unknown "Difficulties exist to be surmounted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live." - Marcus Aurelius, Roman emperor "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." - Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr. "Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know know to be superior in battle." - De re militari (390 B.C.) by Flavius Vegetius Renatus crazyk2758

July 28, 2004, 19:23	#13
tac-40 Moderator Armed Curmudgeon FALaholic #: 12090 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: SC-Low Country Posts: 4,526	Why not copy Calvary Arms idea and make a polymer lower and a composite upper? Doug has the right idea about using a breech block or trunion for the barrel. Rails and an ejector plate, similar to the AK ejector, could be imbedded into the polymer. Check out CALVARY ARMS for a polymer lower on an AR. Don't see why it can't be adapted to the FAL. I would bet that you could get a 50% weight reduction on the total upper and lower recever assemblies. __________________ Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom. Lt. Col. Grant L. Rosensteel, Jr. USAF ______________________________ If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.

July 28, 2004, 21:13	#14
mojo_matic banned - trolling marketplace FALaholic #: 12363 Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New Carlisle, IN Posts: 3,257	Aluminum alloy can and is made into many different compositions with different physical characteristics. I've been a mountain biker for a good 9 years. First aluminum mountain bike frames (6061) were just as heavy as a well built steel frame (with various metalogy itself). These aluminum frames were MUCH stiffer...and when you crashed, the brittle metal would SNAP! Fast foward a decade. We have aluminum alloys from people like Easton which are super light, strong, and not nearly as brittle. A 2.6 pound aluminum mountain bike frame is not uncommon, and can take a great deal of abuse. This is achieved by adding other alloys to the aluminum, as well as heat treatment characteristics....some aluminum alloys actually get stronger at lower temperatures and cooled at sub-freezng temps. to stabilize. Granted, most of the aluminum is tubing. But high stress areas like the bottom bracket (where your crank arms bolt up) and headset (tube where your handlebars are attched to your fork/front wheel) are machines from a solid chunk of metal. I'm sure that there is an aluminum alloy which has the strength/weight ratio would make it suitable for an FAL receiver. What type of aluminum alloy was used for the Williams receiver?

July 28, 2004, 21:26	#15
dougjones31 Registered FALaholic #: 6967 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 4,282	Now .....if we could combine that with a composite barrel then we could get a FAL down under 5 lbs. OK...now I am dreaming. But it would sell! I can have these receivers made. My next door neighbor works for a machine shop that does alot of work for FN. They have the machinery and expertise to take it from disc to product. BUT I am scared to ask what the price would be to get it set up. MisterJG....can you draw the barrel extension on autocad? I will let them look at it if somebody can draw it up. They have the ability and knowledge to test the stresses and adjust the dimensions to get it strong enough. I still lean toward the idea of making 2 side plates that fit together to give it the standard FAL look. And either side could be replaced to repair damage where as an injection molded plastic receiver would have to be replaced if you dropped it and took a big chunk out of it. Oh...I already have a design for a true free float handguard system. Anybody can add this design to their gun without any modification. Look for it soon...coming to a Market Place near you! __________________ "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." --Adolf Hitler, 1935 Last edited by dougjones31; July 28, 2004 at 21:34.

July 30, 2004, 16:43	#16
The Armour Registered FALaholic #: 10778 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lexington, KY. Posts: 460	I just had another thought on how to help reduce the cost of the first prototype. You could use one of the many 80% receiver castings out there. like the ones from TAPCO. They are about $15, and that will take care of a big chunck of the molding. Just machine the areas that you need and remove all the excess that you don't want.Then take it to an injection molding place along with say an IMbel receiver and ask them to mold the machined piece to look like the IMBEL. t will atleast give you something to start testing with. Good luck Doug, and let us know how things go.

July 31, 2004, 12:55	#18
mrbonecrusher Registered FALaholic #: 6604 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pocatello, Idaho Posts: 815	Two words; Carbon Fiber. __________________ Ships boarded, plundered and sunk by appointment only. Custom pirate attacks available.

July 31, 2004, 14:41	#19
havoc1969 Registered FALaholic #: 12190 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: casper, wy Posts: 100	sounds like a great idea doug, when it gets going I will be in for a few, perhaps have you build me a carbine,,,,,,, of course after you get done on the build you are doing for me now,,,lol

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode