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-   -   Armor Piercing (Black Tip) 7.62x51 (moved to Ammunition) (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22588)

rwwje December 15, 2001 21:00

Armor Piercing (Black Tip) 7.62x51 (moved to Ammunition)
 
At the local gun show today, a vendor was selling "armor piercing, 147 gr. black tip, 7.62x51". Bought a magnet and checked it. Magnet reacts the same as .30-06 black tip, and the ammo appears to be steel cored with copper alloy jacket. For example, Port 7.62x51 has a steel jacket, and the magnet pulls very strongly. The magnet pulls the black tip weakly (due to the copper jacket separating the magnet from steel core)

The headstamp of the 7.62x51 blacktip is Nato cross within circle, "F", "78", and "45" (all four spaced 90 degrees apart). The bullets show no pull marks and have a canalure at the case mouth (crimp). The case is bright brass with annealing discoloration on the shoulder. Primers are staked and sealed very neatly with dark green sealant. Case mouth does not appear to be sealed. Ammo appears to be original mil surp.

I understand that it is illegal to manufacture 7.62x51 AP, maybe even illegal to sale, but I have read several places that it is legal to possess, although typically it is not available.

Questions for the Board: (1) Is it legal to possess? (2) Is it "original" mil surp or reloaded.

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

EMDII December 15, 2001 21:12

Note the relevant data for USGI spec AP ammunition. It weighs 150.5 grains, NOT 147.

TM 43-0001-27

Quote:

Type Classification:
OBS - MSR 11756003.
Use:
Machine Guns, 7.62mm, M60, M219 and M240;
and Rifle, 7.62mm, M14. The cartridge is used in rifles
and machine guns against personnel and light armored
or unarmored targets, concrete shelters, and similar
bullet-resisting targets.
Description:
ARMOR PIERCING Cartridge. The cartridge is
identified by a black bullet tip.
Tabulated Data:
DODAC........................ 1305-A120
UNO serial number ..... 0012
UNO proper shipping
name ....................... Cartridges for
weapons, inert pro-jectile
Weight ........................ 393 gr
Length ......................... 2.8 in. (71.1 mm)
Tracer .......................... NA
Primer ......................... Percussion
Fuze ............................ NA
Explosive:
Type ........................ NA
Weight ..................... NA
Incendiary:
Type ........................ NA
Weight ..................... NA
Propellant:
Type ........................ IMR 4475
Weight ..................... 41 gr
Projectile:
Weight ...................... 150.5 gr
Performance:
Chamber pressure ....... 50,000 psi
Velocity ....................... 2750 fps, 78 ft from
muzzle
Shipping and Storage Data:
Quantity-distance class/
SCG ......................... 1.4S
Storage code ............... Class V
DOT shipping class ...... C
DOT designation ......... SMALL ARMS
AMMUNITION
Drawing number .......... 7553704

EMDII December 16, 2001 03:31

GCA 1968 as amended by Public Law 90-618:

Quote:

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron,
brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Quote:

922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful --

(1) for any person --
Quote:

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;

(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and

(C) any manufacture or importation for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary;

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;

(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;

(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary; and.........

EMDII December 16, 2001 03:34

Quote:

923. Licensing

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Secretary shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:

(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer --

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50 per year; or

(C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10 per year.

(2) If the applicant is an importer --

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year; or

(B) of firearms other than destructive devices or ammunition for firearms other than destructive devices, or ammunition other than armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $50 per year.

(3) If the applicant is a dealer --

(A) in destructive devices or ammunition for destructive devices, a fee of $1,000 per year; or

(B) who is not a dealer in destructive devices, a fee of $200 for 3 years, except that the fee for renewal of a valid license shall be $90 for 3 years.

ALL these references came from a search of the ATF site.

rwwje December 16, 2001 03:37

Thanks, Ted.

EmbassyMarine December 16, 2001 07:29

so after all that legal mumbo jumbo, what is the bottom line.??
Can you sell 7.62AP?
Can you posses 7.62AP?

rbuehler December 16, 2001 07:57

Looks like having AP is OK. You just can't import, sell or manufacture. BTW, lacquer thinner works wonders.

rwwje December 16, 2001 12:46

Can anyone provide any info on the headstamp: Nato cross in circle, "F", "78", "45"? Thanks. :)

Bullet December 16, 2001 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by rwwje:
<STRONG>The headstamp of the 7.62x51 blacktip is Nato cross within circle, "F", "78", and "45" (all four spaced 90 degrees apart). The bullets show no pull marks and have a canalure at the case mouth (crimp[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]</STRONG>
What was the price? Just courious.

SoManyGun'sSoLittleTime December 16, 2001 15:52

Is it leagal to reload AP bullets for personl use cause i would like some for my 300 win Mag :D

Derby FALs December 16, 2001 15:53

Anyone remember who we can thank for making AP .308 illegal? Especially their attitude about sticking ammo importers with tons of the stuff.
:mad:

gman December 16, 2001 17:23

The Demowhores and was it ABC or NBC (?) for creating the whole "cop killer" bullshit in the early '80's. They simply created something out of nothing and presto an AP ban went past. As far as I recall this was also attached to the '86 MG ban that Reagon excoriated the 'whores for on national stupid box. He was pissed. They had delayed the funding on a Veterans Admin funding bill so long hospitals were closing and/or cutting back. Then they attached this thing at the last moment specifically to get it past. Reagon knew there were literally thousands of men (and women) that needed the VA hospitals and bennies. Those fuckers the Demowhores of course knew this and simply let those people suffer to acheive their goals. You here that Bill the Lawyer? So much for "compassion". I wonder just how many people died so the 'whores could get it done?

Bullet December 16, 2001 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by DerbyFALs:
<STRONG>Anyone remember who we can thank for making AP .308 illegal? Especially their attitude about sticking ammo importers with tons of the stuff.
:mad:</STRONG>
Oly Arms

falup December 16, 2001 21:26

they be doin the same thing on the economy right now. they want confiscation&destruction
under the guise of anti terrorism.


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