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-   -   OT- Who makes the best AK-47 and why? (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7409)

t1eyer April 05, 2001 09:52

OT- Who makes the best AK-47 and why?
 
Who makes the best AK-47 and why? I want to buy an AK but, there is a lot of different types(countries)and I've heard some are real crap. TIA.

7.62FMJ April 05, 2001 16:20

I have owned several AK's from just about every make. The best I would have to say are Polytech's hands down. They have the thickest recievers as far as the stamped, and best barrels, plus they are blued and of high quality. Norinco's are extremely nice as well both Norinco and Polytech's have the same features for the most part- paddle style mag release, slanted gas tap (easier to clean), heavy grade machine gun barrels, polished bolts and probably the best internals for all the AK series. The Polytech's though have a spring loaded firing pin- excellent for doing the "bump". My second favorite AK's would be the Bulgarians- although only found in Post Ban configuration these are superb quality for fit and have milled recievers- this to me however is a drawback for the weight- however I own two. If you want a really nice commblock stamped I would go with a Hungarian- nice bluing, excellent fit and function but the pre-bans are a bit pricey and the underfolders are rare only 1500 imported. If you are broke and just don't care about fit or funtion then buy a post-ban Romanian, mostly crap but can be made to a relatively nice rifle once you have a gunsmith fix the canted sight, gas block and barrel. Post-Ban Maadi's are about the same as far as crap goes but if you ever come across a true Pre-Ban Styer Maadi then you have a nice rifle with a Styer barrel and better fit, made from original Russian machinery. Another thing to remember is that the Bulgarians have a Styer Technology barrel- not made by Styer but uses the same hammer forged method of forming.
Price wise a pre-ban Norinco will run about $700 to $900 which is relatively high, never pay more than that, Pre-Ban Polytech would run $1100 for a Match Barreled (20"), and $1400 plus for a Polytech Legend- with the underfolders being slightly higher. Stay away from the B-West Polytechs because only one in three recievers were heat treated however most gun smiths can fix this, these B-West recievers are Pre-Ban but US made using Polytech Kits that were imported in the late 80's. Pre-Ban Hungarian SA-85's with underfolders run around $1500, and post-Bans around $500. Bulgarians can be built for about $800 for a nice one but will be quite less for a Arsenal SLR-95 or various makes. Pre-Ban Styer Maadi's run around $1350 plus and the crap post bans for under $350 along with the crap romanians.
Finally buy one in 7.62X39- the original cartridge- cheap to shoot at $74/1000rds and mags are under $10 dollars. If you want a .223 AK then go with a Valmet($1100 plus), excellent rifles but the mags are a bit pricey however Weiger mags will work if modified. If you want a rare bird go for the Galil either in .223 or .308 mags are steep but the rifle is awsome.
Conclusion if you have less than $600 go for a Bulgarian or Norinco or Polytech all in Post-Ban. If you have about $1400 or more go for the best- Polytech Legend Underfolder, ultimate AK. Course I have found Norinco Pre-Ban underfolders for around $750 NIB- awsome price for an awsome rifle. AK's as you can tell are my favorite weapons- ask me about FAL's and I am learning as I go.

sparky April 05, 2001 16:54

Bulgarian milled or any of the Chinese.

blacklab April 05, 2001 17:12

I've heard good things about Global Trades. They make an AK "kit" gun made from de-milled,never issued Polish AKM's and almost new AK-47's matched w/ really nice blond wood stocks on FEG stamped receivers. Hi-Cap ready and no crappy thumbhole stock like on those Bulgarian AK's. Get over to the AK boards, lots of info there.

rMac71 April 05, 2001 17:14

Valmet or Bulgarian, yugoslav's are nice but hard to find any more.
Randy

Chipmunk April 05, 2001 17:45

The only thing about my new SSR-85B by
ArsenalUSA that I disliked was that it only
comes with a 5rnd mag,but hey you're gonna
buy extra mags anyhow.The fit and finish is
damn near perfect.
Chipmunk

------------------
You don't stop laughing because you grow old;
You grow old because you stopped laughing.

WJ-Polish Guy April 05, 2001 18:54

We, Polish people made best AKs. Why? Because we CARE. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/tongue.gif


Painkiller April 05, 2001 19:35

Bulgarian SLR-95. Milled receiver, all black hardware, pretty damn accurate.

archy April 05, 2001 20:06

I'll just add this: I'm very, VERY happy with my Norinco *National Match* RPK. If you get a chance to get one of the longer-barrelled models go for it, particularly if it's got a milled receiver.
I gave my kid a choice of a FAL or AK for his birthday. He's no dummy, he picked the FAL, but if he'd gone for an AK, I'd have probably built him up a Hungarian parts kit on a Bulgarian milled receiver, or just gotten a SLR100-H from Tennessee Guns.

-archy-/-

AFARR April 05, 2001 21:06

I'll throw in a little bit:

1. B-West both imported and made AK's--the US made ones had the heat treat problems, if you can find a B-West IMPORT, it is usually pretty good.

2. The Polytech Legends are milled receiver (heavier) guns, the standard Polytechs are stamped.

3. Possibly the best of the Stamped pre-bans is the Hungarian (must be a KASSNAR import to be pre-ban--if it is KBI, it is post-ban)--by best, I mean in fit and finish.

4. The Chinese guns are usually (the stamped receiver guns) thicker metal, and are pretty good guns.

5. The Yugo's are beautiful guns with a nice grip (the standard AK grips seem thin to me), but the receiver is a modified RPK type rather than a standard AK type. They are very well made, but do run expensive.

6. The Valmets in 7.62 x 39mm will set you back a lot $2000, but they are probably the best made, and take standard AK mags.

7. The Galil's are nice, but you cannot find them in 7.62 x 39mm.

8. Of the post-ban guns, the Krebs guns are probably the best, and he uses Siaga receivers (stamped IZMASH, and they are made in Russia)--but these are $700. The "AK-Legend" or other milled receiver guns are pretty nice for $500. The SAR's at $300 are generally good shooters for the money, but the fit and finish leave a little to be desired.

AFARR

ksuguy April 05, 2001 21:10

I've got an Romanian SAR-1 myself. It might not be as nice as a Bulgarian or Hungarian, it is great for the price. I paid $325 for it, and it came with 6 30 rd mags, a 10 rd mag, sling, and cleaning kit. However they have gone up a bit lately since they are starting to dry up due to the importation ban. If you want the best, go get a Bulgarian. But if you want something that is good and reasonably priced, the Romanians aren't bad.

t1eyer April 05, 2001 21:12

Thanks for the responses. Another question, what do you have to do to get rid of the thumbhole stock (legally) and put original style furniture back on? If it's stamped "sporter" are you stuck? Thanks again.

Tom

7.62FMJ April 05, 2001 22:54

You need to incooperate five US parts for a milled and six for a stamped, of course if you have a muzzle break that to would be have to be US or just add another US part. Usually trigger, hammer, sear, gas piston, and muzzle break for milled and maybe a US pistol grip for the stamped. Do get an AK that has the cleaning rod mounted under the barrel- this is for traditional sake, I had an SLR-95 hated that it did not have anywhere to mount the cleaning rod under the barrel- so I replace the sight housing and gas block to accomidate. Best wood furniture would be the Hungarian Wood furniture available from Global Trades $59 without pistol grip or add $10 and get the original, I also like the Original Bulgarian Black military but avoid the US made buttstocks these tend to be about an inch or two longer than the original- defeats the purpose of low profile shooting and using heavy winter clothing with web-gear. The AK was designed with a shorter stock for this low profile reason and is more comfortable to shoot this way keep the weight closer to the body. If it is stamped sporter then you have to add US parts just because it is Post-89 made. Your best bet is to buy a Post-Ban Polytech- awsome rifle, or a Post-Ban Hungarian. I like the Bulgarians and even have one in traditional Red/Brown Bakelite furniture- awsome, however they are heavy at 9.5 lbs. Let us know what you are thinking of buying and we can tell you weather or not it is a good deal or a rip off. Take care,
7.62

LTC B April 06, 2001 07:27

Take a look at the VEPR II's out of Russia. I've handled one at a gun show, and the fit/finish were excellent. Plus:

1) It is 50% thicker steel (RPK receiver)
2) Chrome bore
3) Excellent furniture.
4) Scope mount included (many others have this)

M77B1 April 06, 2001 07:53

My $.02: When it comes to AKs,go .308!

tulsamal April 06, 2001 08:14

I just got a new AK yesterday. I did the "prepay AIM and ship to FFL 01" thing. It is a SAR-2. I took it all apart last night and was amazed all over again by how simple and "soldier proof" the AK design is. That bolt carrier and bolt is inspired! I agree with all of the above "best" choices but it is hard to beat 239 + 12 shipping for a SAR-2. Now I just need to stick a Kobra sight on it and go shooting.

Gregg

Timber Wolf April 06, 2001 09:02

Gregg, just got the SAR-2 myself and the trigger slap was horrible! After two each SAR-1s and SAR-3s I thought the trigger slap issue was a bunch of sissys over at AK47.net crying but I found out for myself, ouch! I dremeled a little on the disconnector and trigger the other night, hope I have it fixed. The trigger was noticeably peened where the disconnector was hitting the trigger, damn US crap parts. The triggers on my Chinese Aks (a MAK-90 and a B-West gun) are both smooth as glass. I am going to do the pistol grip thing on the MAK-90. I plan on a stock set from Ironwood (supposedly selling them NEXT WEEK, but we've heard that before) which counts 3 pieces, a piston, and ONE trigger part, disconnector probably. Don't want to ruin that great trigger pull. In the same vein, I am bulding a Hungarian kit on a milled Bulgarian receiver. Will use the K-VAR synthetic set (yes, it is longer, but I want to try that on an AK and the heavy milled rifle won't be my field/scouting AK anyway) and a piston to round out my US parts. The milled rifles need one less US part as they have one less counted part overall, the trunnion. I do think I am going to like the SAR-2 better than the SAR-3, 5.56 is too violent in the AK.

------------------
"When the only tool you have is a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail"
Timber Wolf, N.R.A. Endowment Member

3GUN April 06, 2001 10:08

The way I look at it the best of the AK's compared to other rifles (not other AK's) leave a lot to be desired. Mediocre accuracy, long mushy trigger pull, poor ergonomics, horrible sights, out dated cartridge (in 7.62x39) and the fit and finish even on the best is nothing to brag about. At least at one time they were cheap but now a top of the line AK will cost as much as a nice FAL.

So why fight it? If you want a cheap ugly gun get the cheapest and ugliest, a SAR-2. I put an East German plastic stock set on mine. Looks right at home with the six dollar orange Bakelite mags. This set up looks like it belongs in a planet of the ape's movie. And it's cheap, gun, stock, and mags under $300.

Over 2000 rounds of 5.45 fired and not one malfunction, itís a blast to shoot up close and I can hit a 16 inch steel plate out at 300 meters, well most of the time, the sights really are horrible. I have better rifles but it really is fun to shoot.


[This message has been edited by 3GUN (edited April 06, 2001).]

eodinert April 06, 2001 10:30

Gotta jump in on this one..

Of the post ban SAR's, the SAR-1's (7.62x39) rarely have quality control issues. The SAR-2's (5.45x39) occasionally have canted front sights/gas blocks, or soft US trigger parts. I have one, and it's great. SAR-3's suffer some of the woes of the SAR-2, and magazines can be hard to find. They are out there, though. Sometimes you'll get lucky with an SAR-3 and get the 90 degree gas block, nifty if you'd like to build an AK-103 clone. If you buy an SAR, try to hand pick. I did at J&G.

The long, US made black polymer bulgarian style stockset is great, IMO. The standard stuff is just too short for me (my biggest beef with the AK). I really enjoy shooting it more with the long stock. Since my SAR 2 came in a legal post ban configuration with a romanian buttstock and handguard, I could use the short black bulgarian buttstock and still make my US parts count.

Other cool factor with the SAR-2, ATF has ruled that since nobody makes a flash hider for the 22mm threaded original equipment front sight base, if you buy one and install it you don't have to solder or permanantly attach the brake. Mags can be had for less than $5. Recoil without the brake is about half of my M4. I can't wait to shoot it with the brake... Russian army issue red dot sight to mount on the SAR's scope rail retails from $120 to $140, and takes AA batteries.

My other AK is a hungarian. It's a piece of art. Accurate, pretty, well finished..nice.

AK's are crude, ugly, primitive, efficient, and fun. Built on an anvil with a hammer by a mindless peasant...but they've withstanded the test of time. They are amazingly reliable (more so in 7.62). Cheap. Besides, it's good to know what the other side is up to.

Good shooting..
Doug

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...164&p=45818064

t1eyer April 06, 2001 10:32

Thanks a lot guy's, you have been extremely helpful. I'm going to a gun show Sunday. I'm goining to sell one of my STG58's (carbine on an Imbel very nice but not matching SER#'s). I will use that $ to shop for an AK.

WJ-Polish Guy April 06, 2001 11:56

Quote:

Originally posted by 3GUN:
The way I look at it the best of the AK's compared to other rifles (not other AK's) leave a lot to be desired. Mediocre accuracy, long mushy trigger pull, poor ergonomics, horrible sights, out dated cartridge (in 7.62x39) and the fit and finish even on the best is nothing to brag about. At least at one time they were cheap but now a top of the line AK will cost as much as a nice FAL.

So why fight it?...
[This message has been edited by 3GUN (edited April 06, 2001).]

I guess you know AKs mostly from window of your friendly pawn shop. But hey, not all world look like that.
Most AK triggers, even the cheapest ones are much better than FALs. Crude sights?, put EGerman Zeiss scope calibrated for 5.45mm on your SAR and say WOW!...
Nothing wrong with 7.62*39 too, good bush cartrige...
Fit/finish... I put Israeli, Finn, Polish made guns ageinst any modern military rifle...
Now, have some respect. That old design was best in the world for decades and now another russkie design is best for years to came http://www.fnfal.com/forums/tongue.gif

Ezra Coli April 06, 2001 12:33

Quote:

Originally posted by t1eyer:
Thanks a lot guy's, you have been extremely helpful. I'm going to a gun show Sunday. I'm goining to sell one of my STG58's (carbine on an Imbel very nice but not matching SER#'s). I will use that $ to shop for an AK.
You'll be able to get a really nice AK for the proceeds of an STG. I have a SAR-1 and a Krebs AK-103, both are fun. The Krebs is incredible, shoots as well as any military rifle I've fired. Look into the Krebs 103s from Kalashnikov USA.

About the "AK is crap" crowd- geeze, its like comparing apples to oranges. ARs and FALs and such are intended fo a totally different philosophy of warfare, there's no comparison. A good, well made AK isn't supposed to compare to a FAL, its supposed to go bang everytime the shooter wants it to.

Cheers!


------------------
Ezral Coli (S. Head)
Head's Bunker

<A HREF="http://www.geocit
ies.com/yak23flora" TARGET=_blank>He
ad's Bunker</A>

3GUN April 06, 2001 13:32

That reminds me I forgot to bad mouth the AK's safety http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif. I will amit with only a little work the AK's trigger can be made light and smooth, but I have never felt one that I would describe as crisp. And you would not have to resort to using a scope if the sights were any good.

You got me on the fit and finish the Israeli and Finn improved AK's are indeed well made and also have good sights. I have no experience with polish AK's but if they are as well made as my Polish M44, I bet they are nice.

I guess the point I was trying to make is if your looking for an AK not as a collector but as a shooter, than an AK is an AK, a cheap "crappy" SAR will do any thing an expensive preban will do.


[This message has been edited by 3GUN (edited April 06, 2001).]

EMDII April 06, 2001 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ-Polish Guy:
I guess you know AKs mostly from window of your friendly pawn shop. But hey, not all world look like that.Now, have some respect. That old design was best in the world for decades and now another russkie design is best for years to came http://www.fnfal.com/forums/tongue.gif

Our resident ComBloc expert has spoken!

HiHo, WoJo!
http://www.fnfal.com/forums/tongue.gif

I too like the milled Bulgarians, although I prefer the narrower (fore/aft) foresight Ive seen on others IIRC.

The Valmet is the creme-de-la-creme, and the Galil seems to be the most utilitarian.

W/O a doubt, most AK-variants are sturdy, reliable as Uncle Ho, and reasonably accurate out to 300m. Perfect for their design criteria. If you're some less-than-collegiate freedom fighter, or living in Pushtan, these are perfect for you.


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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

kev April 06, 2001 14:05

I just ordered a couple SAR-2's from AIM. Just couldn't stand not having a 5.45 any longer. They probably won't show up until next week, but I thought I'd mention to other owners:

Northridge has a special on mags. 4 East German 30rd AK74 mags in pouch with cleaning kit and mag loader,......two complete sets for $30.

I stocked up on the mags before ordering the guns.

t1eyer April 06, 2001 14:40

I must have been stuck in a cave for the last year. What is this 5.45 cal stuff? I thought AK's came in 7.62x39 only. What is WARSAW Pact countries using nowdays?

rob1 April 06, 2001 14:56

What about building an AK from a parts set? Does the barrel have to be pressed into the receiver? I would like to have a CHEAP beater AK for the collection, and am just wondering if this is a viable way of getting one.

------------------
"Stupid is as stupid does."

awp101 April 06, 2001 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by t1eyer:
I must have been stuck in a cave for the last year. What is this 5.45 cal stuff? I thought AK's came in 7.62x39 only. What is WARSAW Pact countries using nowdays?
SAR-2 is basically an AK-74. The 74 debuted in the '77 Mayday parade and is chambered for the 5.45x39.

Soviets went to 5.45 after seeing the US go to the 5.56 (seems they didn't want to feel left out http://www.fnfal.com/forums/rolleyes.gif )

Don't know how total the changeover was, but it appears to have been issued to at least the first line units.

The "Tales of the Gun" dealing with Kalashnikov on the History Channel has some good info on the 47/74 similarities (over 50% commonality of parts IIRC).

Ekie or Ezra, have I left anything out???

------------------
awp101
Air Assault!

Forces of evil in a Bozo nightmare

All right you primitive screwheads, this is my BOOMSTICK!

t1eyer April 06, 2001 15:57

So there such a thing as an AK-74. I thought that people were accidentally transposing the 4&7. Well, learn something everyday. This site is great!

Farmer from Hell April 06, 2001 16:41

I have an SAR 1 and 2 and like them both. The 1 has horrible trigger slap that I plan to fix but the FC parts in the more recently made SAR 2 seem to be better. I think if you want a post ban then the SSR guns are about the best from what I have been told.

FfH

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He who has the biggest gun makes the rules

http://assaultweb.net/ubb/emoticons/091.gif

[This message has been edited by Farmer from Hell (edited April 06, 2001).]

Tiny April 06, 2001 17:05

I have a few AK's milled Mak90,milled Bulgarian,stamped Norinco and two SAR-2s.
If i had to rate them I would have to say
(1) Bulgarian milled
(2) Mak 90 milled
(3) Norinco stamped
(4) SAR-2

I have a ? my milled Mak 90 on the left hand side of the recv. has 386 inside a oval stamped on it and the Norinco star,name and made in china on the bottom of it and it has ached in it Not stamped in it Mak 90 sporter A.C.T. (III) Was my rifle made at the Polytech factory? The ser# 93**** if that helps any.

Just how much is diffrent between the two if any?

[This message has been edited by Tiny (edited April 06, 2001).]

Ezra Coli April 06, 2001 17:06

Quote:

Originally posted by awp101:
SAR-2 is basically an AK-74. The 74 debuted in the '77 Mayday parade and is chambered for the 5.45x39.

Soviets went to 5.45 after seeing the US go to the 5.56 (seems they didn't want to feel left out http://www.fnfal.com/forums/rolleyes.gif )

To hear some of the -74 fans speak, the 5.45 can take down satellites and remove Abrams from roads. Its a fine little round, a stinger just like the 5.56 but with perhaps some nastier tumbling characteristics once it enters a soft target.

Someone asked about a beater AK from parts? Naaahhh. Parts kits plus receiver plus smithing plus a refinish are going to cost you as much as a SAR-1. If you want the AK-74 equivalent get the SAR-2 for 60 bucks less. The SARs are pretty good, better than a Maadi any day (except perhaps a Steyr Maadi preban). Get some Brownell's Alumahyde II and refinish the metal if you can't take the Romanian finish. But hey, its an AK- the machining marks and bad finish are part of its charm (or lack of, which is just dandy!)

Like I said before, AKs are totally different beasts than FALs. They can't be compared. Shooting/owning/evaluating a FAL is a beautiful thing with its own aura and glow. Owning/Shooting/evaluating an AK is a totally different world. Its coarser, less refined, less accurate, but loads of fun and way the hell up there on the fun scale.

Makes me sick to see gun guys slappin' down this or that type of rifle because "its crap", or "they're not as good as a FGP-97b Sturmsmacker B Magnum". They all have their own place, hell, if I could I'd have one or two of everything!

Spend a couple or three hundred for a SAR and knock down some bowling pins or do the bump and empty a 30 rounder in a few seconds. Its well worth the money.

------------------
Ezral Coli (S. Head)
Head's Bunker

<A HREF="http://www.geocit
ies.com/yak23flora" TARGET=_blank>He
ad's Bunker</A>

Incognito April 06, 2001 17:13

Israel makes the best AK, and they call it Galil http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

eodinert April 06, 2001 17:50

Other cool 5.45x39 facts, that's a 60 grain bullet comin' outta that thing. The original design has a hollow cavity in the front of the bullet- when it impacts, the lead sloshes around inside and radically changes the path of the bullet.

The mags for the 5.45 are straighter, and go in pouches better. The bakelites are a bit lighter than the steel ones, to boot. Not to shabby, for an AK.


awp101 April 06, 2001 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Ezra Coli:
To hear some of the -74 fans speak, the 5.45 can take down satellites and remove Abrams from roads.
Let's not pick on Campybob if he's not here to defend himself http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif! (Someone tell him to get over here and defend his honor)

BTW, what the hell IS trigger slap http://www.fnfal.com/forums/confused.gif???


------------------
awp101
Air Assault!

Forces of evil in a Bozo nightmare

All right you primitive screwheads, this is my BOOMSTICK!

[This message has been edited by awp101 (edited April 06, 2001).]

Timber Wolf April 06, 2001 19:15

Trigger slap is the trigger being bounced into your finger. Caused by the hammer hitting the disconnector which in turn taps the trigger because there is too much metal on one (disconnector tail probably). You will know it if you have it, may believe (as I once did) that it is a urban myth if you don't. I also need to confess that my Hesse short muzzle brake is giving me much "cheek slap" damn, another myth proves true. I really believed the guys reporting this stuff were wusses. Sorry guys.

------------------
"When the only tool you have is a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail"
Timber Wolf, N.R.A. Endowment Member

WJ-Polish Guy April 06, 2001 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Ezra Coli:
....

About the "AK is crap" crowd- geeze, its like comparing apples to oranges. ARs and FALs and such are intended fo a totally different philosophy of warfare, there's no comparison. A good, well made AK isn't supposed to compare to a FAL, its supposed to go bang everytime the shooter wants it to.

Cheers!



Lemme kinda dissagree. If we talk bout semi auto guns on US market, you right. But if we talking `bout oryginal military guns many armys and soldiers did compare.
We saw outcry of many "modern" armys facing little monkeys. "Gimmy some thing like monkeys have!..." http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif

I guess only one thing keeping US GI from carring AK in Vietnam was fear to be shoot at by felow servicemen. If that fear was gone like for Spec Ops guys, so was issued rifles http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif I think that says something...

Some thing in Israel, our beloved FAL got kick in the ass, and "enemy gun" was adopted. So was the case in So Africa...

Columbian army facing guerillas for decades carry galils to, I think...

Then is the case of FN and their FNC wich is damn AK too...

Those little rifles came in different flavors and they RULE the World! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/tongue.gif


Biggame223 April 06, 2001 22:24

Someone say Galil?

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/view?...147&p=34501262

[This message has been edited by Biggame223 (edited April 06, 2001).]

kev April 07, 2001 00:09

Looks like WJ disagrees ALOT!

Farmer from Hell April 07, 2001 00:21

You can spiffy up the cheap SAR's. This is my SAR 2/AK 74 clone. Just for you WJ. You told me to get it. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif I hope to get a better pic with other then basement lighting now that the weather is warming up.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...299&Sequence=0

I can pop 10 inch ballons all day with it at 100 yds with a Kobra sight. I got a grand total of $410 in it.

FfH

------------------
He who has the biggest gun makes the rules

http://assaultweb.net/ubb/emoticons/091.gif


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