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-   -   WTK BSG "a" barrel configuration (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307833)

4 brigada March 29, 2011 15:36

WTK BSG "a" barrel configuration
 
Getting ready to send some barrels off for work, so I need to nail it down.

BSG "a" wood handguards, non bipod, belgian open ear gas block (tall) and Browning long F/H. Now for the millon buck question, lugged barrel or not?

Let me know.

Cheers

def90 March 29, 2011 19:21

Lugged

DakTo March 29, 2011 20:27

Questionable and undetermined at best.

I linked a German video here of the training of troops with the model "a" and on every frame I had froze there was not any evidence of a center lug in the film.
Also the only historic reference in a specification photo shows a plain barrel.

I think everyone has the option to believe what they wish to believe and build the BGS in a way which suits them best until there is comprehensive proof that the model "a" had lugged or unlugged barrels.

jugrunner March 29, 2011 20:28

I'm building one of each, so I'm covered ... :wink:

JimK March 29, 2011 22:42

My vote is for no lug as well based on the same evidence mentioned by DakTo.
(which I find pretty compelling)
I hope to see some pics of your build someday!
:fal:
Jim

4 brigada March 30, 2011 02:57

Thanks everyone, I have read here where it was said that FN was only making lugged barrels around that time. But The T-48 didnt have a lugged barrel. Its more cost effective for me to build a non lugged barrel.

JimK its project #4 on the list. But there is a nice window of opportunity with L/FN (Larry) gearing up to do barrels.

nebula8080 March 30, 2011 06:49

I went no-lugged on mine.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/...77319489_z.jpg

RPBII March 30, 2011 10:19

1 Attachment(s)
A picture that shows lugged.

def90 March 30, 2011 11:22

Despite what everyone says/thinks I have only seen evidence that supports lugged.. :D

def90 March 30, 2011 11:25

Quote:

Originally posted by DakTo
Questionable and undetermined at best.

Also the only historic reference in a specification photo shows a plain barrel.

Which photo are you using?

adam762 March 30, 2011 11:35

photo
 
1 Attachment(s)
To play devil's advocate... I think he's thinking about this photo. Grainy but the lug on the B is fairly clear, and I don't see one on the A.... However, the previous post DOES show one and that supports most of what I've seen also... I suppose you could go either way and claim you were 'correct'. I wonder what the deal is here. It would appear they made them both ways.

DakTo March 30, 2011 11:43

I would think this photo is fairly historic and original and not much chance as a later colored photo with a possible replacement barrel.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...nslation-1.jpg

def90 March 30, 2011 11:44

Re: photo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by adam762
To play devil's advocate... I think he's thinking about this photo. Grainy but the lug on the B is fairly clear, and I don't see one on the A.... However, the previous post DOES show one and that supports most of what I've seen also... I suppose you could go either way and claim you were 'correct'. I wonder what the deal is here. It would appear them made them both ways.
Yeah, I have seen that photo as well however you have to remember that back in the day before computers and editing software photos were set for print by taking the original photo and cutting it out with an Exacto knife and placing it on the new layout template which was to be printed. Anyone that took a newspaper class in high school did this at some point in time. You can see this in that photo by the bad cutline around the stock, pieces of the stock (look at the comb and the humpback) are obviously missing as well as part of the rear sling swivel. How well the print turned out depended on the cutting skills of the person putting the layout together. If you look at the barrel where the lug should/would be you (or at least I :) ) can clearly see 2 vertical lines or dark spots which you see on barrels with the lugs just in front and behind the lug.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_s...types_a_b2.gif

DakTo March 30, 2011 11:46

Re: photo
 
Quote:

Originally posted by adam762
I wonder what the deal is here. It would appear they made them both ways.
Which could mean we can build them either way?

def90 March 30, 2011 11:54

Quote:

Originally posted by DakTo
I would think this photo is fairly historic and original and not much chance as a later colored photo with a possible replacement barrel.


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...nslation-1.jpg

That looks like the same cut out image that was used in the other photos. I still say it's a bad layout editor cut job, just look at the line of the stock, someone got a little loose with their knife.

Abominog March 30, 2011 11:55

Quote:

Originally posted by RPBII
A picture that shows lugged.

It also appears to show a Type B stock & lower, at least to my eye. If I'm correct then the rifle is not correct, so everything else is suspect.

def90 March 30, 2011 12:00

How you would layout print back in the day is type up your boxes of text and cut them out into whatever shape you needed and then cut out your images or pictures. You tried to cut as close to the edge of the picture as possible so that you do not end up with a ghost edge around the picture when you take the photograph for the printing negative.

Here is an example of how any printing was done before computers. Notice all of the cut out boxes of text and ads. You take these and paste them down where ever you decide you want to put them on the page.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...r-paste-up.jpg

adam762 March 30, 2011 12:23

Quote:

If you look at the barrel where the lug should/would be you (or at least I ) can clearly see 2 vertical lines or dark spots which you see on barrels with the lugs just in front and behind the lug.

I saw that too however I couldn't account for it. Didn't know too much about old school photo editing. That explanation makes sense but I guess we'll never really know for sure.

I'll build mine the 'FAL Kanada' way, with the lug. Any fool can spin a die on the end of an Imbel barrel and call it an 'A'.... and many do. The lug and slot cut set it apart from the rest of the herd.

Quote:

Which could mean we can build them either way?
I suppose you can build them any way you want. Given the suspicion thrown on the black and white photo, and the color pic of the FAL Kanada, and what else was being manufactured at the time, I still believe the correct configuration is lugged.

But hell, who's really going to know? I remember someone built an Imbel kit up, painted it nice, and put Izzy furniture on it. Put it up for sale as an Izzy LB clone and it got RAVE comments on it's charm, beauty, ect.... but it's that way with historical replicas of ANYTHING. 99 out of 100 people won't know the difference between an original and a weak attempt at a reproduction.

4 brigada March 30, 2011 12:47

Quote:

Any fool can spin a die on the end of an Imbel barrel and call it an 'A'.... and many do. The lug and slot cut set it apart from the rest of the herd.
Im even more of a fool, because I cant even do that. I have to have it done.

Refurbushing argie/Stg barrels and a US upper makes them historically correct? Im going to let that sink in my fools head for a bit, see what comes out.

JimK March 30, 2011 12:52

Heh, well.....
To me it's kinda hard to deny the fact that in the movies DakTo eluded to there are actually German troops running around with unlugged barrels on their 'A' models.
Nevertheless, I think either way is fine, I am happy just seeing a few folks doing these...
Cheers,
Jim

RPBII March 30, 2011 12:53

DakTo, The description on the picture you posted doesn't match what is shown.

DakTo March 30, 2011 14:32

Quote:

Originally posted by RPBII
DakTo, The description on the picture you posted doesn't match what is shown.
Possibly just a matter of interpretation, I suppose.
Let's take into consideration the information you have provided is perhaps more modern day information and the gewehr shown may in fact be an illustration and not an actual photo. (?) Your pictured BGS "Kanada" is with a flash hider and the BW did order some later "Kanadas" in that configuation and if so the lug on the barrel would have been a bayonet lug not the original intended grenade launcher barrel lug.

What is fact is the BW training film doesn't lie and the troops are BW not BGS, I think. So......where is the information the Bundeswehr were issues perhaps a limited number of G1 model "a" with no lug on the barrels?

I believe the information at hand on the very early G1 model "a" is nebulas at best and we agree in concert the model "b" did in fact have a barrel lug and perhaps some of the model "af".

DakTo March 30, 2011 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by JimK
Heh, well.....
To me it's kinda hard to deny the fact that in the movies DakTo eluded to there are actually German troops running around with unlugged barrels on their 'A' models.
Nevertheless, I think either way is fine, I am happy just seeing a few folks doing these...
Cheers,
Jim

Jim, I think most of us would agree that the Bundeswehr ordered a limited amount of prototype "Kanada" models and the later models were ordered with the screw type T48 flash hiders. Now to install the flash hider would they not have to remove the bayonet lug or use a barrel without the Lug? If so, would not the modified "Kanada" be identical to the BGS model "a"?
Or in fact is the BGS model "a" just a modified "Kanada"?

def90 March 30, 2011 15:23

The Stevens book paraphrased: "Initially 3 rifles were sent to Germany for a demonstration. One was a FALO, one was a Canada and the 3rd was an American T48. After this trial they ordered "several thousand" 'Canada' rifles with the US Type 5 prong flash hider."

I take this as meaning that they have all the attributes of the Canada but have the flash hider attached which is basically what we are looking at. The Canada had a plain muzzle and lugged barrel, no bipod, wood handguards.

Page 250 shows "Prototype no 47" taken from an early German Border Guard instruction sheet. It has a lugged barrel with a threaded muzzle, no hider is installed but the threads are on the barrel for it, no bipod, wood handguards.

JimK March 30, 2011 16:15

The initial German order was for 115 Rifles, serial # D1 - D115, these were used for evaluation and were FAL Kanada models with production improvements...
Second order was for 2000 Rifles, Serial # 116-2115, these had the T48 Flash hider, no mention of lug or lack of lug. These were later retrofitted to AF models I believe. The initial order had no flash hider but lugged barrel.
I think the ones we're seeing in the BGS training film are the second order as they have the flash hider but no lugs...
It doesn't make sense to me either why someone would cut out a picture of one rifle and cut off the lug but not on the other one(s)...
I think recreating these early FAL's is a matter of interpretation but in my mind- as long as your having fun- that's what it's all about.

:beer:
Cheers,
Jim

def90 March 30, 2011 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by JimK
BGS training film are the second order as they have the flash hider but no lugs...
:beer:
Cheers,
Jim

Link to film?

def90 March 30, 2011 16:26

Quote:

Originally posted by JimK
It doesn't make sense to me either why someone would cut out a picture of one rifle and cut off the lug but not on the other one(s)...

:beer:
Cheers,
Jim

Well, they also did a better job cutting out the stocks on the other pictures as well.

JimK March 30, 2011 16:47

Quote:

Originally posted by def90


Link to film?

Training Film

I believe there are several other early training films out there, if I have time tonight I'll see if I can find them.
Jim

jugrunner March 30, 2011 17:00

I just hope mine shoots good !! ... it will be "correct" if it shoots 3" @100 yds ... :biggrin: ... "special" if it shoots 2" ...

IRONWORKER March 30, 2011 17:03

What kind of barrels you use Jug? - I'm useing a NOS Argie for my BGS shooter & a mint bore M2 barrel on my best one

adam762 March 30, 2011 17:40

barrel
 
[QUOTE]Refurbushing argie/Stg barrels and a US upper makes them historically correct? Im going to let that sink in my fools head for a bit, see what comes out.[/QUOTE


About as correct as building the 'kit' on anything other than a properly marked intact FN type 1 receiver. The key word is 'replica' and some people are a little more interested in 'as close as they can get' while others will settle for a little less.

There are many types of FAL enthusiasts. Some just like any FAL that will shoot well. Others like tactical configurations. Some are fans of inch rifles in particular. Some are quite interested in the history of the time, and the machines. While it takes all kinds for this hobby to survive, I enjoy trying to reproduce odd historical configurations to as close to original specs as current materials allow. I also enjoy altering the platform to make it do things the designers never intended... L1A1 paras, side folding wood stocks, ect... Not every one can afford a G series, and even if they could, there are only so many out there. How many post sample BGS model Bs have you seen?

Historically correct is a relative term. You know what it means, and if you don't, then sit back and watch as people to whom it DOES matter discuss it.

jugrunner March 30, 2011 18:20

Quote:

Originally posted by IRONWORKER
What kind of barrels you use Jug? - I'm useing a NOS Argie for my BGS shooter & a mint bore M2 barrel on my best one
I'm using a "lugged" Argy on the first one and a STG barrel that Century whacked the FH threads off of for the second build ... Nice bores on both !!

both "modified" by L/FN ...

Lee Carpentieri March 30, 2011 18:23

To Be Lugged or NOT.
 
OK, I have an IDEA, It's called lets flip a coin, Heads you get the Lug, Tails you don't.:p

DakTo March 30, 2011 19:28

Lee if the coin lands on end it means you build both, right?:wink:

I would think some of us want to do both an "a" and a "b" model. This creates some challenges and prevents redundancy of building the very same BGS over and over again.
I think in the near future we will see two wood vendors providing the metal front ferrule metric handguards for the model "a" for those of us who either didn't secure a set 20-30 years ago or do not wish to buy a set for an arm and a leg.
Since we have only seen very few examples of all three types of the G1 BGS models, it is not unreasonable to consider that the "a" & "af" models may have had both a lugged and non-lugged barrels and the model "b" was lugged.
(Although I have posted a photo of a "b" with a G1 "c' barrel which is on display in Germany) Someone else had posted a BGS "b" with the "c" low rear and front sights.

I really don't think there any absolutes with this FN contract and we know some were modified by the German aresnals for their use and/or rifles build on what available parts in inventory for the final disposition of export surplus sales.

IRONWORKER March 30, 2011 19:29

Re: To Be Lugged or NOT.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Carpentieri
OK, I have an IDEA, It's called lets flip a coin, Heads you get the Lug, Tails you don't.:p
This is probably as good as any, just give me a coin with a lug on each side :tongue:

Lee Carpentieri March 30, 2011 21:21

BGS/G-1's
 
Leave it to a Steel worker to get it right, When in doubt, Just build it.:biggrin:

Yes DakTo, Catch twenty two, Toss of the coin, Dammed if you do and Dammed if you don't. But I'll do all four as I have two done and need to change the barrel out yet again on one, My Real Belgium G-Series G-1 marked Fal.

JimK March 30, 2011 21:56

I think one should keep an open mind when it comes to building a 'correct' early Fal.
I was just looking at the US trials rifles in the Images section here
If you look at all the different configurations the US looked at and trialed, is there any reason that the Germans did not do the same?
I don't think anyone should be faulted for installing a lug- or not- on their 'A' model BGS. We do know they had wood handguards, high sights, etc...
There are tons of questions worthy of discussion regarding these rifles, I have a few myself:
When did the change occur between early and late style handguards in the 'B' production run? (or did they all come with early style then some were changed out later).
I know we've all seen pictures early 'C' model G1's with wood carry handles, was the initial order of 50k delivered with wood ch's which most were changed out later, or were only the first few delivered with wooden ones? Then there's the question of the stock, early ones 'b' type, later ones- 'c' type. When did this happen? Wood and plastic pg's, were they refitted the same time as the stocks I suppose?
I could also raise a million questions about early STG's with FN parts but I won't go there as I don't think there is a correct answer!
It's all good, great rifle, lots of history and for the first time in my life I imagined a coin with a lug- go figure!


:rofl:
Jim

def90 March 30, 2011 22:11

I am of German descent so channeling my inner stubborn German there can only ever be one correct answer and that is lug.. :biggrin: :beer: :biggrin: :beer: :biggrin:

JimK March 30, 2011 22:24

Quote:

Originally posted by def90
I am of German descent so channeling my inner stubborn German there can only ever be one correct answer and that is lug.. :biggrin: :beer: :biggrin: :beer: :biggrin:
Ah so, that explains a lot lol
I'm over half squarehead myself so I think that 'stackenblochen' thing must be in our genes.

:D
Jim

Bigger_Is_Better March 30, 2011 22:42

I watched the aforementioned video several times. I see nothing in it that would suggest the rifles are lug-less. The grainy footage isn't close enough to tell. They don't stick out that far. There were a couple instances where they were rounding the wall that they appeared to have lugs. I don't believe FN would put the futile lug on a later model that was removed from an earlier model. Lugged is the way to go. The still picture obviously had the lug but lost it in cropping. The lines visible on the barrel are where the lug was turned just like the b's.

Aaron


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