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-   -   vz-24 Mauser conversion to .45-70? (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266032)

offshore44 July 03, 2009 10:34

vz-24 Mauser conversion to .45-70?
 
Awhile ago I picked up a vz-24 Romanian contract Mauser for cheap. It has already been buggered up by the arsenal...they ground off the coat of arms on the receiver.

So - the question is: where do I find information about converting this to .45-70 government? The Siamese Mausers are a much easier conversion of course, but I don't have one of those.

I have shot a .45-70 conversion and thought that it was just too cool of a tool.

I believe that I need to modify the following areas:
Bolt face
Probably the firing pin
Bottom metal
Feed ramps
Barrel

Anything else?

Where can I find dimensions and drawings and such? Sure, it's cheaper to buy a .45-70 already built, but where is the fun in that?

Thanks guys... BTW - didn't find anything by searching on the forum. Please point me in the right direction if this has already been discussed.

StoneyCreekMrMauser July 03, 2009 17:34

Numrich prolly has the correct Siamese bolt for the project. The other parts may be more problematic. Be certain of the rifle's ID. A VZ-24 will probably do just fine with the Siamese bolt but a Yugo 24/47 will not (action's too short).

Regardless, I hope it works out for you. My BIL just got a Marlin Guide Gun in stainless and we're hoping to light off some of those babies here soon. Nothin' like a .45 caliber freight train to wake up the masses!

TerryN July 07, 2009 21:43

Why not just rebarrel it to .458 Win Mag? The conversion would be MUCH simpler and cheaper.

All that would be required is to open the bolt face, modify the extractor for the belted magnum case, and to open the receiver rails so it will feed. You can use the same bullets and load it to the same performance as the .45-70.

Also be advised that the Siamese 'Mausers' aren't - Mausers, that is. Parts are NOT interchangeable with Mausers.

offshore44 July 07, 2009 23:39

Thanks for the ideas folks...

Yup, right on the side of the receiver...brojovka brno a.s. vz.24 serial # xr166##. The action is as smooth as polished glass, the barrel looks like f-mix pavement on the inside. Shoots pretty good though.

.458 Win Mag huh? I would have never thought of that...

I was interested in the .45-70 to dink around with cast bullets in a big bore.

bykerhd July 08, 2009 07:40

Years ago I read an article about a Mauser conversion to a cartridge called .458 American 2". A shortened wildcat that would feed through an unmodified Mauser magazine. I don't remember if it was a belted Magnum case used or not. Magnum cases would mean feed rail and bolt face modifications.
The Marlin .450 ? sounds interesting. A modern version of the .45/70 I think.
I don't know what the cartridge was based on and whether it would be a reasonable choice for the Mauser action.

The fewer modifications to the action, the better. Also much less expensive. You'll be paying a gunsmith by the hour for them to tinker through some conversions. Deep pockets, or a very inexpensive gunsmith would be required.

TerryN July 09, 2009 06:46

Quote:

Originally posted by bykerhd
Years ago I read an article about a Mauser conversion to a cartridge called .458 American 2". A shortened wildcat that would feed through an unmodified Mauser magazine. I don't remember if it was a belted Magnum case used or not. Magnum cases would mean feed rail and bolt face modifications.
The Marlin .450 ? sounds interesting. A modern version of the .45/70 I think.
I don't know what the cartridge was based on and whether it would be a reasonable choice for the Mauser action.

The fewer modifications to the action, the better. Also much less expensive. You'll be paying a gunsmith by the hour for them to tinker through some conversions. Deep pockets, or a very inexpensive gunsmith would be required.

If you're going to farm this out, I would suggest E.R. Shaw; they convert Mausers to handle belted mags for fairly reasonable rates. They also barrel them for a very reasonable rate - not benchrest grade barrels, but more than adequate for hunting and plinking.

http://www.ershawbarrels.com/about2.asp

richbug July 11, 2009 09:36

Quote:

Originally posted by bykerhd
Years ago I read an article about a Mauser conversion to a cartridge called .458 American 2". A shortened wildcat that would feed through an unmodified Mauser magazine. I don't remember if it was a belted Magnum case used or not. Magnum cases would mean feed rail and bolt face modifications.
The Marlin .450 ? sounds interesting. A modern version of the .45/70 I think.
I don't know what the cartridge was based on and whether it would be a reasonable choice for the Mauser action.

The fewer modifications to the action, the better. Also much less expensive. You'll be paying a gunsmith by the hour for them to tinker through some conversions. Deep pockets, or a very inexpensive gunsmith would be required.

The 458x2" is just a shorter 458 win mag.

I am working on a 458 mauser right now, I chambered it for the 458 Lott, getting a long enough magazine is challenging, I am up to 3.45" now, need 3.6" about ready to call it "good enough". My plan is to shoot heavy cast bullets out of it at moderate speeds.

Ron Walker July 11, 2009 12:12

The 45-70 would require a rearward slanted magazine box ,a la the Siamese Mauser, to work right . No small job on a standard 98. Ron

the gman July 11, 2009 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by TerryN


If you're going to farm this out, I would suggest E.R. Shaw; they convert Mausers to handle belted mags for fairly reasonable rates. They also barrel them for a very reasonable rate - not bench rest grade barrels, but more than adequate for hunting and plinking.

http://www.ershawbarrels.com/about2.asp

If you are in a hurry for this, you may want to reconsider ER Shaw. I have an exceptionally good friend of mine who is one of the major movers & shakers over there & even he can't get my Swede Mauser project or even a simple profiled & chambered barrel out of the shop for at least 6 months!:cry: :cry:

If you can wait that long, Shaw does some awesome work & I take issue with "they don't make bench rest barrels" as Splattermatic & I have identical AR uppers with Shaw barrels that were good enough to place in the top 5 in a local BR comp........:p:p:p

In addition, the barrels I have on my FAL's (modified Rem 700 style) shoot less than MOA as do the AR barrels I have on various carbines in 5.56 & 6.8 that were made by Shaw.

Seems to me that many folks give Shaw a hard time when it comes to the quality of their barrels, shame when most barrels that they produce will easily out shoot their owners....... :devil:

Oh & +1 on the 458 idea, much easier to do than a 45-70.:beer:

Dunk RD July 11, 2009 20:53

ERShaw
 
Yep, Took me 5 months to get my 30/06 from shaw. But a half min and
Less I would not consider a plinking barrel. I also have a E R Shaw barrel on my AR and it shoots nickle size groups at 100 if I do my part.
Very under rated barrels if you ask me.
Dunk RD

offshore44 July 13, 2009 21:53

Quote:

Originally posted by richbug


The 458x2" is just a shorter 458 win mag.

I am working on a 458 mauser right now, I chambered it for the 458 Lott, getting a long enough magazine is challenging, I am up to 3.45" now, need 3.6" about ready to call it "good enough". My plan is to shoot heavy cast bullets out of it at moderate speeds.

That's kind of what I was looking for as well...cast lead at moderate speeds.

I was browsing the 458 American as well.

I originally bought the rifle to do a 9.3x62 and set it up for shooting cast lead.

I looked at ER Shaw, good looking stuff. Their stuff will probably shoot better than I can. I can instantly turn a half MOA rifle into a "scatter" gun.:cry:

Thanks folks! Lots of good ideas for calibers...keep'em coming!

FAL GRUNT July 15, 2009 09:45

Honestly if you want a .45-70 conversion... it may not be as appealing, but sell the mauser to me, and go buy a Enfield in .303. Bolt face doesn't need modified, magazine shouldn't (don't qoute me) need modified, you may need to modify the receiver rails and feed ramp.

Other than that it is a matter of rebarreling.

I had a No.1 Mk.III action that was just barreled with a few other misc parts, I was going to make it a .50-90 as that is apparently the largest that will fit.

-myers

offshore44 July 15, 2009 23:38

Quote:

Originally posted by FAL GRUNT
Honestly if you want a .45-70 conversion... it may not be as appealing, but sell the mauser to me, and go buy a Enfield in .303...
-myers

Not as appealing? We'll see...

I know zero or less about Enfields... Someone care to school me a little on them? I have touched one in my life, one that someone had "sporterized" a long time ago.

I could save the vz24 for the 9.3x62 conversion, and do the .45-70 conversion on an Enfield.

What should I look for? What should I run away from?

Thanks for the idea myers...

bykerhd July 16, 2009 08:54

If you go the Enfield route, the No 4 Mk1 or No. 4 Mk1* would probably be the way to go.
Stronger than the earlier No 1 Mk IIIs.
There are tons of hacked up, "Sporterized" No 4s around in various stages of undress that would make inexpensive, good candidates for your project. I've seen examples of Bubba's handiwork for as low as just over $100. They show up in pawn and gunshops all the time. There are stocks and sighting set-ups around that should work for you.
The Enfields are NOT as strong as Mauser 98s however. If you don't handload the .45-70 to outrageous pressures, the Enfield should be fine.

FAL GRUNT July 16, 2009 15:27

Quote:

Originally posted by bykerhd
If you go the Enfield route *snip* the Enfield should be fine.
What he said. They are cheap available and relatively strong.

-myers

offshore44 July 16, 2009 20:59

Very good then...

That's about $2 more than I paid for my vz24.

Thanks folks, I appreciate the input and guidance. I'll keep you posted on how the .45-70 Enfield goes.

First up - find one that has already been "improved"... NO, wait, first off - learn how to identify the various models / versions...there we go!

This is fun already!

bykerhd July 17, 2009 15:15

If you build on a No. 4 Enfield, make sure you have a #1 or 2 bolt head on it.
That allows using a #3 somewhere down the road to tighten up headspace, if desired.
Enfields cock on closing. There is tons of debate about it, but it does work very well on a battle rifle for fast operation.
I think Huber makes an inexpensive "better" trigger for the Enfield.
The magazine is a 10 round detachable box. They are fairly simply made. It may, or may not adapt for the .45-70. But it would be much easier to modify than anything else.
The base of the .45/70 is about .070 wider than a .303 cartridge, but I think the bolt head and even extractor will work without modification. Or maybe a bit to the extractor.

Military parts are very available.
Stocks are two piece. Used commercial stocks in various configurations and conditions turn up on E-Bay for not too much money.

bykerhd July 17, 2009 21:19

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a No. 4 Mk 1 with a .303 military cartridge and a commercial .45-70 cartridge.

bykerhd July 17, 2009 21:23

1 Attachment(s)
Here is the bolt with the head removed for illustration.

bykerhd July 17, 2009 21:28

1 Attachment(s)
Last one.
.303 cartridge and .45-70 loaded in the Enfield magazine.
As you can see, the .45-70 is too short to feed without modifications to the magazine.
A spacer at least and maybe some metal added and shaped at the front ?

offshore44 July 18, 2009 11:10

bykerhd - Thank you VERY much for the pictures! I think in pictures and symbols, so the pictures were outstanding.

So, what is this bolt head size thing, and how do I tell? I am assuming that a bolt head will have a size marked on it some way...

Dang (sorry) this is getting more interesting all the time!

bykerhd July 18, 2009 12:45

I was talking about the diameter across the rim of the .303 versus the .45-70 cartridge.
About .070 inches wider for the .45-70. As I said, I think the Enfield extractor will probably work with little or no modification.
The magazine modifications required to accommodate the .45-70 cartridge, and to feed it reliably, are likely the biggest obstacles of the project.
That, and finding a gunsmith to do the work.

offshore44 July 19, 2009 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by bykerhd
I was talking about the diameter across the rim of the .303 versus the .45-70 cartridge.

I understood the difference in rim diameter that you pointed out...I was asking about the different bolt head numbers...used to set headspace? I was thinking about your comment about obtaining a rifle with a #1 bolt head to allow for later adjustment of headspace...

Did I misunderstand?

bykerhd July 19, 2009 11:43

#1 & #2 Enfield No. 4 bolt heads are very common and quite inexpensive.
The longer #3s have been snapped up by folks adjusting up headspace on old war time production Enfields. Whether really needed, or not.
Properly built, you should not need to worry about headspace once the thing is built.
But, it would be nice to have the option, should you want or need to tighten things up a bit.
Maybe build with a #2 and then have the option of the #1 or #3 ?

FAL GRUNT July 20, 2009 22:32

When barreling, just set headspace to the bolt head at hand.

Simple and exact... no need to muck about with different heads.

-myers

richbug July 21, 2009 08:11

Quote:

Originally posted by FAL GRUNT
When barreling, just set headspace to the bolt head at hand.

Simple and exact... no need to muck about with different heads.

-myers

Personally I would use a "0" when building so I could correct headspace later on.

I think I have a "0" head for a #4 if anyone needs it. Gratis

aardq July 21, 2009 10:40

At one time, Gibbs Rifle Co made 45-70 Enfields. They're around and usually reasonably priced. http://www.gibbsrifle.com/sport_speciality.html

For a 45-70 Mauser, get a Siamese Mauser which already has the bolt and magazine designed for a large, rimmed cartridge. While not a true Mauser, they were made by the Japanese to their highest standards for material and workmanship.

Either one should make a fun rifle.

Have fun in your search.

Dan

offshore44 July 21, 2009 21:20

Well, I just blew my .45-70 budget on a mid 50's Winchester Model 52 with all the goodies.

With that being said, I now have time to do a good job of researching making a .45-70 out of an Enfield. I've looked at the Gibbs rifles. Not to shabby actually. But this is supposed to be a "bubba" project to hone my mechanical skills.

FAL GRUNT July 25, 2009 20:00

I totally forgot you could also buy a Siamese mauser...


-myers


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