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-   -   kid fires cop's holstered gun in school activity (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423951)

gunplumber February 12, 2018 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter (Post 4540036)
what are you doing mark, sitting by your laptop waiting for me to post? at least let my keys cool before making me mock you again.

Actually, I'm listening to some BB King, and entering 2017 invoices into a spreadsheet for taxes. I shipped 125 FALs in 2017. Not bad for a small, one-man custom shop, run by "such a failure".

Quote:

they just do not have the controls that any modern double-action autoloader should have. they do not have a de-cocker safety.
Nope. It doesn't. And if you can't handle the concept of "pull trigger, gun goes bang" (with three passive safeties), then you should not carry a Glock (or any gun, for that matter). There are some 10 million+ other buyers who have a different idea of a what a gun "should" have, and chose the Glock. So I doubt Glock is overly concerned with your mental limitations.

bubbagump February 12, 2018 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4538684)
..
Glocks are not "cocked". The striker functions like a bow and arrow. They are not in the drawn position while at rest.

The Glock has THREE passive safeties (as compared to revolvers, which have 1 or 2 depending on model).

To fire a Glock, you must pull the trigger. Pulling the trigger is supposed to fire a gun (that's why it's called a "trigger").

This. Basically Glocks have a firing mechanism like a DA revolver except that they have no SA capability. The firing system is at all times de-energized and incapable of firing a round except when the trigger is in the process of moving to the rear. My question would be wtf is a cop doing running around in a school environment, or for that matter anywhere else wearing a holster that exposes the trigger?

RG Coburn February 12, 2018 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagar (Post 4539982)
Me thinks this story is a bunch of lies and hogwash. I think kid tried to take holstered gun, struggle took place, and gun discharged.

Yeah,but you'd think that maybe before going into a freakin' elementary school,maybe the cop should at least clear the pipe of a live round?
We can't even concealed carry in a school. Have to leave it locked in the vehicle or something.
It's not like he was going into a hot situation with a active shooter or something.

bubbagump February 12, 2018 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdb59 (Post 4540033)
It is rather entertaining to see a responsibility issue verbally deform into an equipment issue.

Blaming an inanimate object for potential harm is usually reserved for the realm of Leftists.



:uhoh:

................

Indeed. Great point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagar (Post 4539982)
Me thinks this story is a bunch of lies and hogwash. I think kid tried to take holstered gun, struggle took place, and gun discharged.

Yep, my take too. This story ain't quite passing the sniff test.

ByronF February 12, 2018 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 4540081)
Yeah,but you'd think that maybe before going into a freakin' elementary school,maybe the cop should at least clear the pipe.

I clear the pipe for no man, woman, or chillen.

SAFN49 February 12, 2018 18:38

Since striker fired pistols are always about half cocked, striker preloaded, with all the different trigger bars, and firing pin safety stop springs and mods to lighten trigger pulls, especially with mix and match parts, I wouldn't put too much trust in them not going off if dropped.

http://i.imgur.com/Vac2ZDM.jpg

Especially when there are warnings on the firing pin safety springs. "Warning: Reduced Power spring is for competition use only - not for duty use."

gunplumber February 12, 2018 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFN49 (Post 4540122)
I wouldn't put too much trust in them not going off if dropped.

Since we are talking about the Glock, and not any random striker fired pistol, I am not sure what you are including in "them." An FN /Browning 1905? 1910?

A factory Glock in good condition, I have 100% confidence that it will never go off when dropped. That's because I know what I'm talking about, and I'm not a raving idiot like you with zero understanding of the topic.

It is possible for a number of other automatics and revolvers to fire without pulling the trigger. Highly unlikely, but physically possible. Same with rifles using a trigger block instead of a hammer block.

Some require an unrealistic amount of force (HK wanted higher and higher drop tests, believing the FAL would reach the point of sear bounce before the G3) others that you break enough parts and position them "just so". But in this case, the officer's gun fired because someone or something pulled the trigger. Which is what is supposed to happen when the trigger is pulled.

SAFN49 February 12, 2018 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540161)
Since we are talking about the Glock, and not any random striker fired pistol, I am not sure what you are including in "them." An FN /Browning 1905? 1910?

A factory Glock in good condition, I have 100% confidence that it will never go off when dropped. That's because I know what I'm talking about, and I'm not a raving idiot like you with zero understanding of the topic.

It is possible for a number of other automatics and revolvers to fire without pulling the trigger. Highly unlikely, but physically possible. Same with rifles using a trigger block instead of a hammer block.

Some require an unrealistic amount of force (HK wanted higher and higher drop tests, believing the FAL would reach the point of sear bounce before the G3) others that you break enough parts and position them "just so". But in this case, the officer's gun fired because someone or something pulled the trigger. Which is what is supposed to happen when the trigger is pulled.

I know you trust all factory mechanical safeties as you just stated. The issues with mechanical firing pins blocks are well know. It's mechanical and will fail. We are not just talking about Glocks, but rather all striker fired pistols that have a "half cock" on the striker. The other one that comes to mind is the S&W M&P. We already know the the Sig passed all drop tests but still went off out side of the prescribed drop. Start combining that with wear, lack of cleaning/maintenance, and possible after market parts, NO THANKS. I'll carry a properly maintained Glock with all factory parts. For you to say it will never happen or can't happen just shows how ignorant you truly are.

I still have a Old model Ruger Blackhawk that hasn't been back for the recall............... Nor have any of my Remington striker fired rifles. Dumbass. The key is to never rely on mechanical safeties, but you still insist that a firing pin block is infallible. :facepalm:

yellowhand February 12, 2018 20:58

I carried a 1911 and also a BHP while working, and would loved to have an G19 back then.
Both the 1911 and BHP were subject to caked mud/other wet crap blocking the hammer and safety from working at all, everything on both pistols seemed to rust up near overnight, regardless of how much oil we sloshed onto them.
The magazines on the 1911 were subject to rusting to the frame and being unable to remove them without a pry bar.
The 1911 and BHP mags would fill with water, and everything rusted up.
We drilled holes in the magazines, but then they clogged and rusted up nearly overnight.

From a "working" standpoint, light weight, plastic everywhere it can be placed, no safeties at all, just draw, point, and pull the trigger is a perfect working mans pistol.

A round in the chamber, ready to go, at all times!
When ya need your pistol, you really need your pistol to fire that 1st round every single time with zero added actions except for pulling the trigger.

Spend 30 minutes cleaning your pistol every night, or get 30 minutes extra sleep???

I would have loved having a Glock 19 back then.:wink:

RG Coburn February 12, 2018 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByronF (Post 4540098)
I clear the pipe for no man, woman, or chillen.

You clean it loaded??In the house?
I treat all firearms like they're loaded,with caution. We don't allow loaded firearms into the deer camp cabin.

justashooter February 13, 2018 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFN49 (Post 4540194)
. Dumbass. The key is to never rely on mechanical safeties, but you still insist that a firing pin block is infallible. :facepalm:

i have and shoot a '98 marlin 12 guage pump, despite the fact that the entire series based on the '98 was recalled for locking system mechanism failures in 1942. the part in question is steel, and steel product quality is my purvue. it's what i do.

i inspected the gun and the part that was known to fail is just fine on mine. i made an informed decision. but this is not what i was talking about with glocks.

it's not whether the mechanism will work, or not. it is that the design lacks a real safety mechanism, entirely.

the lack of a "positive" or "active" safety results in people getting shot unnecessarily by kops who never actually decide to shoot them. it's just a part of an unconsidered chain of reflexive response, rather than a considered deliberate act. i imagine that many non-kop shootings have similar lack of decided action.

i have an acquaintance who is a shrink and specializes in kops. he says they come to him wondering why they keep getting into shit for beating their wives, stealing stuff through police process, drinking themselves into a stupor, using drugs they have frisked off of "perps", and screwing whores on Beaver Street ( i kid you not, the whores in York hang out on Beaver Street).

he says that more than once in his 20 years of practice some kop has come to him and asked him "why they shot that guy". "but i really didn't even know that i was doing it, and maybe i didn't really need to. maybe there was another way".

trouble is, shooting someone dead is creating a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFN49 (Post 4540194)
The issues with mechanical firing pins blocks are well know.

Really? Is that why they are pretty much standard today? It is an additional passive device because the least reliable part of the equation is the operator. These passive devices are to counteract the stupidity of people. (Edit: I think it is a great addition - there just is no real downside. While perfectly confident in carrying a Mk II Browning Hi-Power cocked and locked, I preferred the MK III's firing pin safety. There is just no downside to it.)

Jam the FP block in exactly the right position and the gun still won't fire by itself. You still must pull the trigger.

I will give you $1000 and a new factory Glock of your choice if you can document your factory Glock firing by dropping it.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 4540220)
We don't allow loaded firearms into the deer camp cabin.

If there is drinking going on, that makes sense. And hunting rifles, ok. But a personal protection handgun? I am more concerned with people loading and unloading guns around me, then with leaving them holstered.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashithead (Post 4540371)
trouble is, shooting someone dead is creating a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I understand that you are stupid, incompetent, and lazy. I understand that you eschew personal responsibility. I understand that you believe adding a manual safety to a double-action revolver will make it "safer".

Just because you are a fcking moron, doesn't mean everyone else is. Some people do not want a manual safety on their revolvers. So Glock remains the most popular handgun in the world, with almost half of all police forces in the USA using them.

I actually don't carry a Glock at all times. I have a Glock in arms reach in the bedroom, the office and the car. Also one in my go-bag. But the gun I carry anytime I'm wearing pants is a S&W Airweight .38. If I also wear a gun on my belt, the J frame becomes a secondary. I'd prefer to carry a G43 or 26, but it doesn't fit my front pocket as well. It has not active safety, although it does have a rebound safety. Despite it being so inherently dangerous, it has yet to do anything by itself.

I wonder, is it more or less dangerous than the Glock?

raubvogel February 13, 2018 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4540216)
I carried a 1911 and also a BHP while working, and would loved to have an G19 back then.
Both the 1911 and BHP were subject to caked mud/other wet crap blocking the hammer and safety from working at all, everything on both pistols seemed to rust up near overnight, regardless of how much oil we sloshed onto them.
The magazines on the 1911 were subject to rusting to the frame and being unable to remove them without a pry bar.
The 1911 and BHP mags would fill with water, and everything rusted up.
We drilled holes in the magazines, but then they clogged and rusted up nearly overnight.

Are you trying to hint that a 1911 is not the apex of perfection, reliability, and infallibility? :eek:Heresy I tell you! :frantic:

:whistling:

SAFN49 February 13, 2018 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540382)

I will give you $1000 and a new factory Glock of your choice if you can document your factory Glock firing by dropping it.

Please sent $1000

From way back in 1992.

The Glock was the only semiautomatic to fail in a recent round of "drop tests," Mr. Pledger said. In those tests, guns were dropped to the floor from waist height to see if the impact caused them to fire.

"In many cases, the Glock pistols will not pass the drop test," he said. "If you drop it exactly right, it can go off."

gunplumber February 13, 2018 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFN49 (Post 4540421)
Please sent $1000

From way back in 1992.

The Glock was the only semiautomatic to fail in a recent round of "drop tests," Mr. Pledger said. In those tests, guns were dropped to the floor from waist height to see if the impact caused them to fire.

"In many cases, the Glock pistols will not pass the drop test," he said. "If you drop it exactly right, it can go off."

Sure - as soon as you post the video of you dropping your factory Glock and it firing. Just use a cartridge with the bullet and powder pulled.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 11:23

Of course SAFN would omit the source of his quote:

His favorite newspaper, that bastion of Conservative Thinking...The New York Times !

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/15/ny...ose-risks.html

This was all part of the campaign against the adoption of ANY semi auto sidearm by the NYPD in the early 90s.

Now for the record in my opinion Glock type sidearms are an extremely poor choice for the majority of the rank and file Police
First jurisdiction to adopt the G17 series were the St. Paul Police way back in the 80s. The transition was real bad. In less than two years they withdrew them from issue.

The problem was many LEOs could not get their heads around the concept as they were accustomed to DA revolvers or autos like the S&W M39 where they would take up some of the DA trigger travel during the draw.
Whole bunch of SIWs, a number of suspects shot...the lawsuits/settlements went into the multi millions

Glocks are great guns
providing you understand and train on them

NYPD had the same teething issues with their Glocks
that resulted in that crazy heavy New York trigger developed to cut down on the gun going bang when you don't want it to.

justashooter February 13, 2018 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540389)
I understand that you are stupid, incompetent, and lazy. I understand that you eschew personal responsibility. I understand that you believe adding a manual safety to a double-action revolver will make it "safer".

Just because you are a fcking moron, doesn't mean everyone else is. ?

this, gentlemen, is what is called an "ad hominem attack". for those of you who do not have 3 years of latin, ad hominem, means "to the man".

this kind of attack is used by those who cannot win an argument through the socratic process, which is what reasonable adults use to resolve conflict. in a socratic process, observable facts are presented for consideration, and a chain of logic based on the facts is created to prove a point. if a superior chain of logic cannot be created to contest the point, the conclusion is agreed upon.

mark seems to be incapable of participating in such a contest, so, instead, responds in a juvenile rage in his moment of incapacity.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashithead (Post 4540437)
this, gentlemen, is what is called an "ad hominem attack".

Directed at me

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashithead (Post 4540437)
buttplumber your level of assholishness is astounding. .. watch the video, stupid... your fragile short dick ego . .. . such a failure . .. marginally functional people like yourself . .. .

Directed at others

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashithead (Post 4540437)
retarded police admins . . . cheap stupid bastards ...barefooted primitives. . ..

Hypocrite much?

ByronF February 13, 2018 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 4540220)
You clean it loaded??In the house?
I treat all firearms like they're loaded,with caution. We don't allow loaded firearms into the deer camp cabin.

I wait for the 15th negligent discharge to clean it. It's a Glock so sometimes it well over a month between cleanings. And yes, I carry loaded in the house quite often.

yellowhand February 13, 2018 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by raubvogel (Post 4540391)
Are you trying to hint that a 1911 is not the apex of perfection, reliability, and infallibility? :eek:Heresy I tell you! :frantic:

:whistling:

Oh hell yea!:biggrin:

The only safety or mechanism I want on a hand gun, actually any firearm, something to insure it does not go off when dropped, shit happens, but other than that, I want that sucker plain dangerous and sure fire at all times.

I've met a lot of people in my life, where no amount of added on safeties to any firearm would make them safe around firearms, nor, cars, trains, boats, walking down the street, sleeping in their beds, using a hammer, etc.:facepalm:

Dumb asses always find a way to do dumb shit.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter (Post 4540437)
this, gentlemen, is what is called an "ad hominem attack". for those of you who do not have 3 years of latin, ad hominem, means "to the man".

this kind of attack is used by those who cannot win an argument through the socratic process, which is what reasonable adults use to resolve conflict. in a socratic process, observable facts are presented for consideration, and a chain of logic based on the facts is created to prove a point. if a superior chain of logic cannot be created to contest the point, the conclusion is agreed upon.

mark seems to be incapable of participating in such a contest, so, instead, responds in a juvenile rage in his moment of incapacity.

Naw, I don't see it that way

1st off this isn't some philosophy forum. A good share of us speak plainly, you included. When you delve into socratic process you probably should be posting on the Huffington Post, not here.

2nd...there is a class of manlet who actually thinks things have set rules
We have very basic rules here.
Don't be a manlet in discussion

3rd...if you are a sensitive Suzi then just put Mark on ignore
I have told a couple folks to do that, shit I know for a fact there are like 5 that have me on it. No butthurt here whatsoever.
me ?
I don't put folks on ignore, I just ignore them :facepalm:

4th...there is no "contest"
Currently I am debating elements of WWII history with V. While we disagree I don't dislike him. We just enjoy confronting one another.
Gives the old fart's life meaning I guess :shades:

just saying, lighten up on the elitely nuanced scolding regarding elocution.
Billy Bob FAL Filer has no shits given.

bubbagump February 13, 2018 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4540486)
Oh hell yea!:biggrin:

The only safety or mechanism I want on a hand gun, actually any firearm, something to insure it does not go off when dropped, shit happens, but other than that, I want that sucker plain dangerous and sure fire at all times.

I've met a lot of people in my life, where no amount of added on safeties to any firearm would make them safe around firearms, nor, cars, trains, boats, walking down the street, sleeping in their beds, using a hammer, etc.:facepalm:

Dumb asses always find a way to do dumb shit.

This, exactly. A moron is a single-point failure for any mechanical safety device. Add three safety devices on a pistol and you still have a single common-mode point of failure. Additional safeties are useless from an engineering standpoint as long as they have a common point of failure and since the moron factor can be eliminated by (drum roll, wait for it ... ) not being a moron then any mechanical safety at all on an intrinsically, passively-safe design is a step in the wrong direction. An answer looking for a problem.

Color me with GP on this one insofar as the Glock action is concerned. I am not overly fond of the damn things but the chance of an uncommanded discharge is simply not one of their faults. Quite the opposite, actually.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riversidesports (Post 4540496)
just saying, lighten up on the elitely nuanced scolding regarding elocution.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Nuttz February 13, 2018 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riversidesports (Post 4540496)
...No butthurt here whatsoever...

:bspole:

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540507)
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

perhaps so GP, just my personal attempt to apply thousand dollar words in a ten dollar debate :biggrin:

gunplumber February 13, 2018 14:09

It's a great word. Just doesn't apply to the written word. Only spoken. It used to be taught. Projection, planned pauses, enunciation, emphasis, tempo, pitch, timbre, etc. It's actually covered in one of my old school primers. The one used on the show "Little House on the Prairie." Perfect example of the devolution of American Education. This middle-school book from the 1880s, would leave most of today's college graduates confused.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540524)
It's a great word. Just doesn't apply to the written word. Only spoken. It used to be taught. Projection, planned pauses, enunciation, emphasis, tempo, pitch, timbre, etc. It's actually covered in one of my old school primers. The one used on the show "Little House on the Prairie." Perfect example of the devolution of American Education. This middle-school book from the 1880s, would leave most of today's college graduates confused.

Hear ya, I have a fair number of McGuffy's readers from the real old days

Back in the 90s a machine shop professor borrowed my copy of the old Henry Ford Trade School's machine shop training manual and republished it as an intro shop text

You are absolutely correct, as I often state words do mean things
my usage was wrong :bow:

gunplumber February 13, 2018 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riversidesports (Post 4540526)
Back in the 90s a machine shop professor borrowed my copy of the old Henry Ford Trade School's machine shop training manual and republished it as an intro shop text

I learned a lot of lathe techniques from a reprint of the Southbend manual, originally published in 1914.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540528)
I learned a lot of lathe techniques from a reprint of the Southbend manual, originally published in 1914.

The Ford Trade School manuals are dumbed down from the old Southbend
Some of the reprints Lindseys used to offer were sourced from original materials I supplied. There are machine manuals, foundry, etc all in Depression language meant to teach country bumpkins

Been collecting this shit for over 20 years
been thinking on taking up where old man Lindsey left us but it sucks to turn an interest into a damn full time job.

justashooter February 13, 2018 15:33

i think the butt-plumber would be more familiar with the term alocution.

justashooter February 13, 2018 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riversidesports (Post 4540496)
1st off this isn't some philosophy forum. A good share of us speak plainly, you included. When you delve into socratic process you probably should be posting on the Huffington Post, not here.
n.

like mark, you are ignoring my point. i am not debating the ability of the firearm to perform as designed. i am remarking that the design is flawed in that it removes a point of decision from the process.

stay on point.

bubbagump February 13, 2018 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540528)
I learned a lot of lathe techniques from a reprint of the Southbend manual, originally published in 1914.

No doubt. I have had the opportunity to thumb through one. So much of that is all but lost today.

gunplumber February 13, 2018 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter (Post 4540546)
i think the butt-plumber would be more familiar with the term alocution.

Inasmuch as I can spell allocution correctly, yes.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter (Post 4540547)
like mark, you are ignoring my point. i am not debating the ability of the firearm to perform as designed. i am remarking that the design is flawed in that it removes a point of decision from the process.

stay on point.

was on point retard...

already noted I find them a poor choice for rank & file LEOs given the utter lack of training to deploy

gunplumber February 13, 2018 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by justashooter (Post 4540547)
i am remarking that the design is flawed in that it removes a point of decision from the process.


The design is not flawed. The Glock goes bang when the operator pulls the trigger. It does not (and can not) go bang, if the operator does not pull the trigger (indicating an excellent design). Pulling the trigger is SUPPOSED to make the gun go bang. The gun should not go bang when dropped or manipulated in any way short of pulling the trigger. The Glock passes with flying colors.

Your "issue" revolves around your self-doubt and projection of that self-doubt on others. The solution to your lack of confidence in your ability to make a sound shoot/don't shoot decision, is not improved by a piece of hardware. It is improved by training and practice.

Since the Modern Technique of the Pistol, teaches disengaging the manual safety on the draw stroke, upon presentation, your double-action decock is no less likely to go bang upon pulling the trigger, than DAO auto, revolver, or safe-action Glock.

Or are you pointing a gun at someone with the safety on? That would be odd. One should not point a gun at something they are not willing and prepared to destroy. Leaving the safety on, suggests that you are not sure of your willingness to destroy. If that is the case, don't point the gun!

1. The decision that one needs a gun was made before the draw.
2. The decision as to who is the threat, is made before pointing the gun.
3. The decision to put one's finger on the trigger is made as the certainty of the threat validity increases.
4. The decision to press/pull the trigger is made when the validity of the threat is confirmed.

All your wailing falls on step 4. Nothing mechanical affects this decision. Only training.

That others who carry firearms have a poor level of training, is not a point I dispute. Some of the worst gun-handlers I've seen are cops. And they seem to be the most difficult to correct, as they assume (by virtue of carrying a gun for their job) that their level of training is sufficient. Military (particularly Marines) are next, as they have been told how awesome they are, for so long, that they believe it. Getting prior service to put their egos away and learn what they don't know, is tough. I know. I was one. And I thought I was the shit. Until I learned more technical shooting in a 3 day class than I had learned in Special Operations Infantry.

So yeah - people who carry guns need more training. There is no such thing as "too much training and practice". And it is a perishable skill.

All of which is secondary to your assertion that a Glock is by design "unsafe" because YOU are incompetent and believe a manual safety will protect you from yourself.

Riversidesports February 13, 2018 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunplumber (Post 4540565)
The design is not flawed. The Glock goes bang when the operator pulls the trigger. It does not (and can not) go bang, if the operator does not pull the trigger (indicating an excellent design). Pulling the trigger is SUPPOSED to make the gun go bang. The gun should not go bang when dropped or manipulated in any way short of pulling the trigger. The Glock passes with flying colors.

Your "issue" revolves around your self-doubt and projection of that self-doubt on others. The solution to your lack of confidence in your ability to make a sound shoot/don't shoot decision, is not improved by a piece of hardware. It is improved by training and practice.

Since the Modern Technique of the Pistol, teaches disengaging the manual safety on the draw stroke, upon presentation, your double-action decock is no less likely to go bang upon pulling the trigger, than DAO auto, revolver, or safe-action Glock.

Or are you pointing a gun at someone with the safety on? That would be odd. One should not point a gun at something they are not willing and prepared to destroy. Leaving the safety on, suggests that you are not sure of your willingness to destroy. If that is the case, don't point the gun!

1. The decision that one needs a gun was made before the draw.
2. The decision as to who is the threat, is made before pointing the gun.
3. The decision to put one's finger on the trigger is made as the certainty of the threat validity increases.
4. The decision to press/pull the trigger is made when the validity of the threat is confirmed.

All your wailing falls on step 4. Nothing mechanical affects this decision. Only training.

That others who carry firearms have a poor level of training, is not a point I dispute. Some of the worst gun-handlers I've seen are cops. And they seem to be the most difficult to correct, as they assume (by virtue of carrying a gun for their job) that their level of training is sufficient. Military (particularly Marines) are next, as they have been told how awesome they are, for so long, that they believe it. Getting prior service to put their egos away and learn what they don't know, is tough. I know. I was one. And I thought I was the shit. Until I learned more technical shooting in a 3 day class than I had learned in Special Operations Infantry.

So yeah - people who carry guns need more training. There is no such thing as "too much training and practice". And it is a perishable skill.

All of which is secondary to your assertion that a Glock is by design "unsafe" because YOU are incompetent and believe a manual safety will protect you from yourself.

yeah no John Wick
not riding a bike folks
to maintain competency figure a minimum of 50 rounds monthly
I used to be 500+ a month starting in junior high school
some AR, mostly 1911

I'm not John Wick any more
gun is still an extension of my hand, just don't control it like I used to
then again, I have not been to the range in well over a year :facepalm:

RG Coburn February 13, 2018 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByronF (Post 4540471)
I wait for the 15th negligent discharge to clean it. It's a Glock so sometimes it well over a month between cleanings. And yes, I carry loaded in the house quite often.

Your house,your rules....:)
In this case,the cop obviously let down his guard enough that a child could gain access to his firearm,even though holstered. I maintain my distance from cops.Their "safe zone". I tell my kids the same thing. If the cop has to bolt off to a call or something,leave them room to maneuver,and not plug their path. And they don't like people playing with their toys without consent.
Had the cop cleared the barrel before going into the school,and say the kid still touched his piece,would anything have happened? Would we hear about it?
Something went boom,and that makes the news. Let's not make the news.

Herr Walther February 13, 2018 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAFN49 (Post 4540122)
Since striker fired pistols are always about half cocked, striker preloaded, with all the different trigger bars, and firing pin safety stop springs and mods to lighten trigger pulls, especially with mix and match parts, I wouldn't put too much trust in them not going off if dropped.

http://i.imgur.com/Vac2ZDM.jpg

Especially when there are warnings on the firing pin safety springs. "Warning: Reduced Power spring is for competition use only - not for duty use."

That is inaccurate.

The Walther P99 in a decocked condition has the striker fully decocked and in a double action mode. The only striker fired DA/SA pistol that I'm aware of that is not a knock off or copy from Turkey or some other third world shithole.


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