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-   -   Earthquake preparedness (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170869)

Story May 28, 2006 15:13

Earthquake preparedness
 
I'm surprised I couldn't find any existing threads on the realities of earthquakes, amongst than the usual Mutant Zombie Biker theories. Not to capitalize on the recent "must see TV" NBC movie-of-the-moment silliness, but in addition to the California fault lines, there's always the New Madrid zone.

http://www.showme.net/~fkeller/quake/maps.htm

An article on the consequences of an earthquake in Indonesia, which just left at least 4,300 dead, follows in the second post. Note that the comments from the victims sound alot like post-Katrina quotes.

Story May 28, 2006 15:14

Survivors From Massive Earthquake Search for Food
Death Toll Rises to More Than 4,300
By CHRIS BRUMMITT, AP

BANTUL, Indonesia (May 28) - Tens of thousands camped out for a second night Sunday in streets, cassava fields and the paths between rice paddies as the death toll from Indonesia's earthquake topped 4,300.

Rattled by hundreds of aftershocks, exhausted and grieving survivors scavenged for food and clothes in the brick, wood and tile rubble of their flattened houses. They pleaded for aid, which - despite worldwide pledges of millions of dollars and planes carrying medicine and food - seemed to be coming too slow.

Torrential rain late Sunday added to the misery of some 200,000 people left homeless by Saturday's 6.3-magnitude quake, most of them living in makeshift shelters of plastic, canvas or cardboard. Thousands of wounded awaited treatment in hospitals overflowing with bloodied patients.

"So far no one from the government has shown any care for us," said villager Brojo Sukardi. "Please tell people to help us."

The quake on the island of Java was the fourth destructive temblor to hit Indonesia in the last 17 months, including the one that spawned the Dec. 26, 2004, tsunami that killed 230,000 people across Asia, most of them on this Indian Ocean archipelago.

The country also is coping with the bird flu crisis, Islamic militant terror attacks, and the threat of eruption from Mount Merapi. The quake not only raised activity at the rumbling volcano but also damaged the 9th-century Prambanan temple, a U.N. world heritage site.

The disaster zone covered hundreds of square miles of mostly farming communities to the south of the ancient city of Yogyakarta. Power and telephone service was out Sunday across much of the region. As many as 450 aftershocks followed, the strongest a magnitude 5.2.

The worst devastation was in the Bantul district, which accounted for three-quarters of the deaths. One man dug his 5-year-old daughter out of the rubble of her bedroom only to have her die in a hospital awaiting treatment with hundreds of others.

"Her last words were 'Daddy, Daddy,"' said Poniran, who like many Indonesians uses only one name.

"I have to start my life from zero again."

In Peni, a hamlet on Bantul's southern outskirts, 20 residents searched for a neighbor after finding the bodies of his wife and three children. Villagers set up simple clinics despite shortages in medicine and equipment. Women cooked catfish from a nearby pond for dozens of people huddled under a large tent.

The U.N. World Food Program started distributing emergency food rations Sunday, with three trucks bringing high-energy biscuits to some of the worst-hit districts and two Singapore military cargo planes landing with doctors and medical supplies.

"I regret the slow distribution of aid," Idam Samawi, the Bantul district chief, told The Associated Press.

"Many government officials have no sensitivity to this. They work slowly under complicated bureaucracy, while survivors are racing against death and disease."

At least 4,332 people were killed, according to government figures, and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent said at least 200,000 people were left homeless. Most of the dead were buried within hours of the disaster, in line with Islamic tradition.

The earthquake hit at 5:54 a.m. as most people slept, caving in tile roofs and sending walls crashing down. Survivors screamed as they ran from their homes, some clutching bloodied children and the elderly.

The quake's epicenter was 50 miles south of the volcano, and activity increased soon after the temblor. A large burst spewed hot clouds and sent debris cascading some two miles down its western flank. No one was injured because nearby residents had been evacuated.

Officials said the famed 7th-century Borobudur Buddhist temple, one of Indonesia's famed tourist attractions, was not affected. But Prambanan, a spectacular Hindu temple to the southeast, suffered serious damage, with hundreds of stone carvings and blocks scattered around the ancient site.

It will be closed until archeologists can determine whether the foundation was damaged, Agus Waluyo, head of the Yogyakarta Archaeological Conservation Agency, said Sunday. Close to 1 million tourists visit the Borobudur and Prambanan temples every year.

International agencies and nations across Europe and Asia pledged millions of dollars in aid and prepared shipments of tents, blankets, generators, water purification equipment and other supplies. The United States promised $2.5 million in emergency aid; the European Union granted $3.8 million. Indonesia said late Sunday it would allocate $107 million to help rebuild over the next year.

Indonesia, the world's largest island chain, is prone to seismic upheaval due to its location on the so-called "Ring of Fire," an arc of volcanos and fault lines encircling the Pacific Basin. It has 76 volcanos, the largest number in the world.

05/28/06 14:44 EDT

Fallschirmjager May 29, 2006 09:59

Preparations for earthquakes is pretty much what you would do for any long term disaster. The one thing that most people don't realize is the fact that the planet goes through shifts, etc. on a cycle. But this cycle is so far apart in number of years, except the known earthquake zones, that no one was living in the area when the last quake occurred, hence no recorded. The geology of any area will reveal the geological history, but in terms of 'human memory' it was so long ago as not to be of concern to most.

The US sits on several tectonic plates that move over geological time. Right now they are stable, with geologic pressure building up from natural internal processes. We don't become aware of these internal workings until a slippage occurs that creates a earthquake. Old fault lines are thought to be 'inactive', but they are simply dormant. We all know of the fault lines in CA because they are constantly moving and shifting. But the 'inactive' ones are just as dangerous or more so because we have built on top of them with impunity and when the forces under them build up they will slip thus producing catastrophic results.

The one long term factor in earthquakes is the stability of structures afterward. It could be months or years before people could return to areas they once lived in (if the quake is localized). But if a quake is a trigger for other areas to release pressure ('inactive' fault') the consequences would be far more reaching.

If you want to prepare for l-o-n-g term earthquake disasters, your usual long term plans could be expanded a bit more to include some sort of temporary shelter (large tents, etc.) that could be set up away from buildings or other structures that crumble days later. Getting out of an earthquake area before a quake would be my best plan. But with dormant faults, you never know what would trigger a release of internal energy in that fault area. And dormant fault lines do become active. It happened in my state in a 'dormant' fault. Talk about a wake up call!

Check out the US Geological Survey fault line maps and earthquake stats. for your area. You may be surprised.

JMHO

Check this link for animations of plate tectonics. Its quite interesting. OK its from Berkley (liberal land) but the science is the same.:wink:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tectonics.html

Bigger_Is_Better May 29, 2006 16:46

You mean the New Madrid that is 40 miles from my house?? Yep, I've been thinking of adding some to my preparations here lately.

Aaron

Story August 22, 2010 10:11

(Aug. 21) -- New research shows that major earthquakes have struck southern California far more frequently than previously thought -- and the next one could be just around the corner.

The study from geologists at the University of California Irvine and Arizona State University showed that massive quakes -- of magnitude 6.5 or greater -- have hit the region's San Andreas fault line at intervals of between 45 and 144 years.

With the last major earthquake in 1857, that means Southern California is overdue a massive quake.

http://www.aolnews.com/science/artic...ected/19603057

Story April 16, 2011 13:43

Burt Gummer, where are you?


http://www.mynews4.com/story.php?id=41029&n=122




Nevada Seismologists are keeping a close eye on an area southwest of Hawthorne, Nevada where hundreds of earthquakes have been detected since Sunday.
" It's a little bit concerning in a sense.. The largest earthquakes in these sequences are pretty large in size." Graham Kent is Director of Nevada Seismological Laboratory at the University of Nevada Reno. He says there have been hundreds of earthquakes southwest of Hawthorne over the past few days. The largest-- recorded at a 4.4 in size.

"These are the biggest in a sequence we've seen at least in the last couple of years." Kent says unlike the 2008 quakes in Somersett that damaged so many homes, these earthquakes are fortunately not underneath a community.

Story December 12, 2013 21:33

‘Imagine America Without Los Angeles’: Expert Warns Southern California Isn’t Ready For Major Quake

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...r-major-quake/

Nomad, 2nd December 13, 2013 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story (Post 3748566)
‘Imagine America Without Los Angeles’: Expert Warns Southern California Isn’t Ready For Major Quake

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/...r-major-quake/

Cali is a strike- slip fault.... So no matter how much people wish it... No failing off into ocean.

yellowhand December 13, 2013 11:08

These folks keep track of this it appears in real time.

http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/

Story June 14, 2017 01:34

Quote:

California earthquake experts believe what happens at the San Gorgonio Pass during a major rupture of the San Andreas fault could have wide-ranging implications for the region and beyond.
They worry a huge quake could sever lifelines at the pass for weeks or months, cutting Southern California off from major highway and rail routes as well as sources of power, oil and gas. Southern California’s cities are surrounded by mountains, making access through narrow passes like the San Gorgonio essential.

Experts have also expressed grave concerns about the Cajon Pass, where Interstate 15 and key electric and fuel lines run. Other problem spots are the Tejon Pass, through which Interstate 5 passes, and the Palmdale area, through which the California Aqueduct crosses.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...htmlstory.html

yellowhand June 14, 2017 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story (Post 4436225)

I read this today.
When it happens, we here in AZ will be over run by refuges. :facepalm:

Gary Harwell June 14, 2017 07:15

YH check out the Az (Red) Star last week( Tucson.com). Your area has had some duzzie earthquakes in the past, running all the way deep into to Mexico. I had one knock me out of bed in the early 80s in Tucson.

Exit308 June 14, 2017 11:41

On the subject of earthquakes, I can recommend the book "Upheaval" by John L. Casey. This is a follow up to his book "Dark Winter".

Dark Winter covers the cyclicality of the Sun's output and how it affects the Earths climate.

Upheaval explores the correlation between a less active Sun, the cooling of the Earth's climate, and earthquakes.

He has put his ass on the line with predictions of 80%+ probabilities of significant earthquakes at the New Madrid zone as well as the Cascade Subduction zone and the San Andreas as well as others. The book mainly covers the U.S.

tdb59 June 14, 2017 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story (Post 4436225)

What that article does not address is the southward end of the multiple faults around the Salton Sea.

If there is a chasm opened in the Mexicali- San Luis area, the Sea of Cortez will have a new terminus north of Interstate 10 and Indio, CA.

The Baja Peninsula will have no land connection to mainland Mexico.

The food producing Coachella and Imperial Valleys will be inundated.

As an example, Calipatria California has an elevation of 180' below sea level.


..........................

yellowhand June 14, 2017 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Harwell (Post 4436251)
YH check out the Az (Red) Star last week( Tucson.com). Your area has had some duzzie earthquakes in the past, running all the way deep into to Mexico. I had one knock me out of bed in the early 80s in Tucson.

We here actually felt a 3.6 last year, house shook and mama and I just looked at one another.
That one was enough, marked it off the bucket list!:D

C2A1 June 14, 2017 14:30

Not just LA:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/download...view_draft.pdf
Look down at Part 9 Section III Magnitude 6-7 then look down at Table 6
This came up in a DHS meeting and looking at seismic velocities, the fault running up the Hudson is under stress.
There is another in Boston.

yellowhand June 14, 2017 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2A1 (Post 4436451)
Not just LA:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/oem/download...view_draft.pdf
Look down at Part 9 Section III Magnitude 6-7 then look down at Table 6
This came up in a DHS meeting and looking at seismic velocities, the fault running up the Hudson is under stress.
There is another in Boston.

The one in the middle of the country worries me more than the west coast.
That sucker goes off again, we're in a hell of a mess.

C2A1 June 14, 2017 15:17

No Fed Ex for sure. Been working the last month on systems for mapping disaster areas for financial risk analysis for the banking industry after such events. Getting interesting areas and reasons why they want it done. As a side note even these folks are starting to worry about EMP.

RG Coburn June 14, 2017 15:29

So how much does a guy carry? You'll need lots of rope,because every earthquake involves somebody either being pulled up,down,out or in. You'll need life jackets,cuz there's always somebody stuck in water. A helmet. Lots of picks,shovels,prybars,jacks,general mining type equipment.people always buried under rubble. And don't forget groceries. Lots and lots of groceries,because everybody else forgot,or was too busy texting nonsense,to buy their own.And now,since you have all the groceries,you are either God...or the devil,depending on how you disburse them.

yellowhand June 14, 2017 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG Coburn (Post 4436483)
So how much does a guy carry? You'll need lots of rope,because every earthquake involves somebody either being pulled up,down,out or in. You'll need life jackets,cuz there's always somebody stuck in water. A helmet. Lots of picks,shovels,prybars,jacks,general mining type equipment.people always buried under rubble. And don't forget groceries. Lots and lots of groceries,because everybody else forgot,or was too busy texting nonsense,to buy their own.And now,since you have all the groceries,you are either God...or the devil,depending on how you disburse them.

A large one goes off, say west coast or the St. Louis one, no one is coming to help for a very long time.
Simply not enough resources and the people that know how to use them, plus, 1st responders, like New Orleans, will be busy taking care of their own families.
An EMP hits, natural or man made, we're all on our own, for our lifetimes???
Everyone needs friends and family, places they can "run" too in the event all hell breaks loose.
We have family and friends in Michigan, Western Carolina's, and Arkansas.
Something happens here, we run there, if something happens there, they run here.
Everyone has enough fuel stockpiled to get to the alternate locations without fill ups.
Time to prepare is now.
WE :biggrin: have a lot of West Coast friends heading our way here in event anything blows there.
Coffee always hot, park out back, wipe feet before coming into the house.:D

KoKodog June 14, 2017 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4436536)
A large one goes off, say west coast or the St. Louis one, no one is coming to help for a very long time.
Simply not enough resources and the people that know how to use them, plus, 1st responders, like New Orleans, will be busy taking care of their own families.
An EMP hits, natural or man made, we're all on our own, for our lifetimes???
Everyone needs friends and family, places they can "run" too in the event all hell breaks loose.
We have family and friends in Michigan, Western Carolina's, and Arkansas.
Something happens here, we run there, if something happens there, they run here.
Everyone has enough fuel stockpiled to get to the alternate locations without fill ups.
Time to prepare is now.
WE :biggrin: have a lot of West Coast friends heading our way here in event anything blows there.
Coffee always hot, park out back, wipe feet before coming into the house.:D

a major quake, say 8.0 along the New Madrid would be enough to split the country in two, and it would take about a decade to just replace river bridges

it would be serious economic impact alone

there are many more implications

yellowhand June 14, 2017 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by KoKodog (Post 4436673)
a major quake, say 8.0 along the New Madrid would be enough to split the country in two, and it would take about a decade to just replace river bridges

it would be serious economic impact alone

there are many more implications

I could afford to put in another 500 gallon water tank, so just added it, also, picked up another 8K generator, a back up, for the back up, lucky my wife agrees with all this.;)

The more populated and the more complex any society becomes, the easier it is to bring it down to its knees.

Major quakes hit every hundred years on the west coast, 8.0 +, that's a simple fact.
It's been 160 years since one that huge hit.

The New Madrid is long over due, last time it went off, folks were killing rabbits and eating them for supper every night, and that one was so bad, it rang church bells in Boston.

Either one going off tomorrow, millions will die, starvation will rule the land, pestilence, plagues, TB, Typhoid fever, all the old horrors will return and people will not be prepared.

I asked questions last week to several friends and I will ask them again here;

Can we even make modern antibiotics without a computer and high tech factories?

Without computers, how do we get oil out of the ground and formulated into gasoline and delivered around the nation?

How do we pump and clean water without electricity for 320,000,000 people?

Without pumps, how do we grow that much food?

Short answer we don't.

badzero June 15, 2017 05:58

Fwiw fish antibotics are safe and cheap, Amazon and eBay have a good selection, Thomas labs is the manufacturer most recommend, you should really have a pallet or so in your preps.

C2A1 June 15, 2017 09:41

YH those are the real questions! The one biggie is how many of the people with the knowledge to make Antibiotics, build and run a refinery, etc. etc. will be around. As part of the DHS/EMP thing we're doing, the fraction of people with the knowledge to run critical elements of our society is actually a small fraction. (The thing about Americans is in general they have the ability to "turn wrenches", unlike folks from India/China. (now the newer generation maybe not). So those places will not be very good resource to replace the lost folks, especially in the near term (2 years)). Most are concentrated in the urban areas with California taking in the biggest portion, especially in the Pharm/bio area. The good news is the lousy govt. of Kalifornia is pushing them out, The smaller (and more resourceful) have already left. Any major disruptive event that kills a lot of people has an amplifying effect in an advanced technological society. The question is being asked: Which has more impact? Losing East LA or Palo Alto, Ca. You then follow this logic down to the individual (All men are created equal but some have more value (depending on the situation of course)).

medicmike June 15, 2017 09:59

Let us not forget the Cascadia fault. If it goes while I am home I won't have much to worry about as I will be under a wall of water since I am only a few hundred yards from the beach.

https://pnsn.org/outreach/earthquakesources/csz

yellowhand June 15, 2017 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2A1 (Post 4436867)
YH those are the real questions! The one biggie is how many of the people with the knowledge to make Antibiotics, build and run a refinery, etc. etc. will be around. As part of the DHS/EMP thing we're doing, the fraction of people with the knowledge to run critical elements of our society is actually a small fraction. (The thing about Americans is in general they have the ability to "turn wrenches", unlike folks from India/China. (now the newer generation maybe not). So those places will not be very good resource to replace the lost folks, especially in the near term (2 years)). Most are concentrated in the urban areas with California taking in the biggest portion, especially in the Pharm/bio area. The good news is the lousy govt. of Kalifornia is pushing them out, The smaller (and more resourceful) have already left. Any major disruptive event that kills a lot of people has an amplifying effect in an advanced technological society. The question is being asked: Which has more impact? Losing East LA or Palo Alto, Ca. You then follow this logic down to the individual (All men are created equal but some have more value (depending on the situation of course)).

One thing we have going for us, we can adapt our people into other critical areas in many areas.
A guy that spends his life today digging ditches, gets up, digs a ditch, goes home and repeats day after day, can be quickly adapted to digging latrines, trash pits, bunkers, fighting positions, diversion of water into truck gardens and on and on.
GP's can learn to be surgeons, surgeons can learn to be baby doctors,etc.
But there are some real high tech specialist, which when they are gone, no one can replace or be adapted to from other areas.
The use of computers have eliminated the need for a LOT of people to know how to do STUFF, no computers, stuff just ain;t going to get done.
Its as simple as going from point A to B.
Most people can't read a map, work off a compass and paper map.:facepalm:
EMP occurs, no up links to satellites, no GPS.
Took me a while, but I have decent maps for most of the country, really good maps!:D

BiGB808 June 17, 2017 18:47

I just used Amazon 2 day shipping for a water cleaner, from inside my pool with waterproof Samsung Galaxy S5.

I pray no earthquake until my boy is atleast 10. Little kids and natural disasters sounds horrific. I became much softer and harder at the same time once the baby was born.

hueyville June 17, 2017 19:33

While it's low odds, heard many experts say if the fault line that's the Appilachian Mountains ever slips it will result in a magnitude 10 quake along the Eastern Seaboard. Have had two tremors in my lifetime that rattled dishes and shook a few knick knacks off shelves. Both I was not only person who felt thus was not a flashback or bad batch of dope. From Dawsonville to Dahlonega both times many people reported them one in the 70's and other in the 80's. I worked loading containers and working radio traffic out of Haiti, mostly my employees were loading containers while I worked radio as took my entire crew to the ATL NAMB/Red Cross/Salvation Army/GEMA/FEMA offices and warehouses on an as need basis for a couple weeks. Was nice being able to do that for multiple events back when carried a large staff or leave them working while I activated into events. An earthquake on the East Coast would be catastrophic as the only things I know of built to earthquake standards are Ma Bell facilities. Why still trying to buy the old microwave tower location 15 minutes north of me. Rated for F2 tornado, CAT 3 hurricane and high 6 dot something earthquake. Even in Southeast every battery rack I install for Ma Bell must be earthquake rated and have earthquake bars installed to keep batteries in racks.

yellowhand June 17, 2017 19:36

Yellowstone has another swarm happening now.

0302 June 17, 2017 20:04

no earthquake faults around here.👍🏿

0302 June 17, 2017 20:11

https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthqua...mexico-haz.php

read it & weep

John A June 17, 2017 21:13

Hueyville, I too live in the Appalachian Mountain chain.

KY/TN/VA border area.

Here's one little detail that would blow a lot of minds, but the information is correct to my knowlege.

http://www.uky.edu/KGS/education/pinemountain.htm

Quote:

"The force was provided by the collision of the North American continent with Africa and Europe at the end of the Paleozoic Era, more than 275 million years ago. The collision formed the Appalachian Mountains and a series of thrust blocks, each one pushed to the northwest over the next. Pine Mountain is the westernmost thrust block.

Geologists can trace the amount of movement on the fault. The northern portion of Pine Mountain, north of the town of Louellan, has been thrust 4 miles (6.4 km) from its original position. The southern edge in Tennessee has been moved 11 miles (17.6 km)! The area that is now the city of Harlan has been moved 6 to 8 miles from where it started."

yellowhand June 17, 2017 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0302 (Post 4438162)
no earthquake faults around here.👍🏿

That's a good thing, your AO has a host of other issues to contend with.:wink:

Exit308 June 17, 2017 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiGB808 (Post 4438129)
I became much softer and harder at the same time once the baby was born.

Those are the two sides of the dad coin.:wink:

raubvogel June 18, 2017 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4436691)
I could afford to put in another 500 gallon water tank, so just added it, also, picked up another 8K generator, a back up, for the back up, lucky my wife agrees with all this.;)

The more populated and the more complex any society becomes, the easier it is to bring it down to its knees.

Major quakes hit every hundred years on the west coast, 8.0 +, that's a simple fact.
It's been 160 years since one that huge hit.

The New Madrid is long over due, last time it went off, folks were killing rabbits and eating them for supper every night, and that one was so bad, it rang church bells in Boston.

Either one going off tomorrow, millions will die, starvation will rule the land, pestilence, plagues, TB, Typhoid fever, all the old horrors will return and people will not be prepared.

I asked questions last week to several friends and I will ask them again here;

Can we even make modern antibiotics without a computer and high tech factories?

Without computers, how do we get oil out of the ground and formulated into gasoline and delivered around the nation?

How do we pump and clean water without electricity for 320,000,000 people?

Without pumps, how do we grow that much food?

Short answer we don't.

So, rich people move to their guarded NZ properties they bought to weather out massive disasters, US conquers Canada, so those who count can have electricity, AC, and chocolate under the pillow. Maybe Mexico too to show we are equal opportunity. Those who do not count get to go through the aftermath. All deaths and rapes and riots are blamed on The Jewish Conspiracy. Problem Solved.

rowjimmy June 18, 2017 09:15

Not sure if posted:


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...ts-out-america

J. Armstrong June 18, 2017 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story (Post 3748566)
‘Imagine America Without Los Angeles’: /[/url]

Oh please, oh please !!!!

Wil-C June 18, 2017 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4436691)
I could afford to put in another 500 gallon water tank, so just added it, also, picked up another 8K generator, a back up, for the back up, lucky my wife agrees with all this.;)

The more populated and the more complex any society becomes, the easier it is to bring it down to its knees.

Major quakes hit every hundred years on the west coast, 8.0 +, that's a simple fact.
It's been 160 years since one that huge hit.

The New Madrid is long over due, last time it went off, folks were killing rabbits and eating them for supper every night, and that one was so bad, it rang church bells in Boston.

Either one going off tomorrow, millions will die, starvation will rule the land, pestilence, plagues, TB, Typhoid fever, all the old horrors will return and people will not be prepared.

I asked questions last week to several friends and I will ask them again here;

Can we even make modern antibiotics without a computer and high tech factories?

Without computers, how do we get oil out of the ground and formulated into gasoline and delivered around the nation?

How do we pump and clean water without electricity for 320,000,000 people?

Without pumps, how do we grow that much food?

Short answer we don't.

it was done before without computers, why not again?

Penicillan was discovered and made without computers, no reason it can't be done again.

The same for petroleum, water, electric, farming, animal husbandry,etc.

Hoover dam? no computers, designed with a slide rule
Rural electrification? no computers, done with a slide rule
cars? until the 70's, all done with a slide rule.
aircraft? same as cars.
BTW: planes going twice the speed of sound? done with a slide rule.
We put a man on the moon & back home safely with a slide rule.
Battleships (USS missouri sized & armed...) & aircraft carriers? Designed and built via slide rule.

Petroleum industry? No computers till at least the `70's.
farming? no computers till probably the `80's
medical? no computers till at least the `70's.
Cash registers? prior to the `70's, all mechanical.
Transportation? until the `70's, no computers.
BTW: RR still used the old school diesel from back in the `30's. How was it done up until the 50's & 60's?
Telegraph & teletype, put up the poles & the wires, break out the timetables, you're in business.

What was the population of this country up until the late sixties / early seventies? No lack of farming, transportation, etc. No computers but it still got done. Food was grown, gas was made for cars, diesel was made for trucks & trains, the electricity was one every day. Clean water was available at the turn of the tap, etc. No computers.

we would simply have to go back to how it was done before, paper, pen, typewriter, slide rule.
This country ran just fine up through the mid-sixties on those very things.
No reason we couldn't do it again. More labor intensive? that means more jobs available and a real incentive for people to educate themselves for real.
You'll have to be able to do math, no calculators. Read, write, do math, just like it was done before.
Will it have to be relearned? yes to a certain extent, I look around where I live and to a measurable degree, it is still being done old-school and there's enough of those types around to pass down that tribal knowledge.

I don't think I am talking out my ass on this.
I've worked in the following fields:
aviation
automotive
municipal water
currently working R.R.

at one time I held 2 federal and one state license in those fields. I still hold one federal license and could easily qualify for another.

one common thing I've observed in all of those. Computers create one single thing, ease of managing & using information. It makes doing that a lot less labor intensive, that is all it does.
Prior to the advent of the computer era, it was all done by hand. Think about all the things this country created prior to about 1965, all of it was done by hand, we did it once, we can do it again.

C2A1 June 18, 2017 11:54

One of the railroads has a plan to deal with EMP. They have the old time tables and will walk the engines to central locations. They have the 1910 layout and management books. Up until 5-10 years ago they could operate at 30-40% capacity that way. Now the new locomotives have a computer and the system is being changed over to GPS and electronic switching. I know folks who have paid to have siding put in and "store" older locomotives. The older locomotives will survive EMP and many have electrical outputs.
An interesting study was where there are rail yards with truck depots (fuel) co-located with low population.

Gary Harwell June 18, 2017 14:01

There are several hundred older locos stored just east of Tucson on a spur, can see them from I10. I was told they were there due to rail commerce being down. Maybe there for another reason.

0302 June 18, 2017 14:15

when da big one strikes cali & hordes of refugees flow along I40 & I10 my cohorts & i will raid & plunder da gees, lots of booty to be had. maybe build a harem of real blondes, na nix they, they sunburn too easy.
but back to the subject, no one rides fo free through the southwest indian lands.

yellowhand June 18, 2017 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wil-C (Post 4438364)
it was done before without computers, why not again?

Penicillan was discovered and made without computers, no reason it can't be done again.

The same for petroleum, water, electric, farming, animal husbandry,etc.

Hoover dam? no computers, designed with a slide rule
Rural electrification? no computers, done with a slide rule
cars? until the 70's, all done with a slide rule.
aircraft? same as cars.
BTW: planes going twice the speed of sound? done with a slide rule.
We put a man on the moon & back home safely with a slide rule.
Battleships (USS missouri sized & armed...) & aircraft carriers? Designed and built via slide rule.

Petroleum industry? No computers till at least the `70's.
farming? no computers till probably the `80's
medical? no computers till at least the `70's.
Cash registers? prior to the `70's, all mechanical.
Transportation? until the `70's, no computers.
BTW: RR still used the old school diesel from back in the `30's. How was it done up until the 50's & 60's?
Telegraph & teletype, put up the poles & the wires, break out the timetables, you're in business.

What was the population of this country up until the late sixties / early seventies? No lack of farming, transportation, etc. No computers but it still got done. Food was grown, gas was made for cars, diesel was made for trucks & trains, the electricity was one every day. Clean water was available at the turn of the tap, etc. No computers.

we would simply have to go back to how it was done before, paper, pen, typewriter, slide rule.
This country ran just fine up through the mid-sixties on those very things.
No reason we couldn't do it again. More labor intensive? that means more jobs available and a real incentive for people to educate themselves for real.
You'll have to be able to do math, no calculators. Read, write, do math, just like it was done before.
Will it have to be relearned? yes to a certain extent, I look around where I live and to a measurable degree, it is still being done old-school and there's enough of those types around to pass down that tribal knowledge.

I don't think I am talking out my ass on this.
I've worked in the following fields:
aviation
automotive
municipal water
currently working R.R.

at one time I held 2 federal and one state license in those fields. I still hold one federal license and could easily qualify for another.

one common thing I've observed in all of those. Computers create one single thing, ease of managing & using information. It makes doing that a lot less labor intensive, that is all it does.
Prior to the advent of the computer era, it was all done by hand. Think about all the things this country created prior to about 1965, all of it was done by hand, we did it once, we can do it again.

Will, everything you say above it completely and 100% true.

"It was done before without computers, why not again?"

Short answer, panic and complete breakdown in society as we know it today.

We are on a "just in time delivery" system to supply for all needs to 320,000,000 people.

Anything that breaks that fragile chain, anything at all, will kill off ??? 300,000,000 of our people within 12 months, maybe less.

People of the past did everything you mentioned above, but they did it all in times of relative peace and stability, without having to introduce a totally NEW system from the ground up, all the while millions are dead daily from lack of water, medical care, food stuffs.

We have the talent to pull off a return to the past without computers, but human beings will not stand by and die in place while it was being put into place.

New Orleans was a perfect example of what everyday human beings will be like when the power and everything that makes up normal society goes away overnight.

If what happened in New Orleans hits nation wide, game over.
If what happened in New Orleans hit the whole of the East coast, our major population center, game over.
If we loose the West Coast, California, Oregon, Washington state, we might be able to hold on long enough where it all does not go ten toes up, but the financial hit will ruin this country for lifetimes.

We're not that well prepared to handle the destruction of one major population center, like NYC or Chicago, anything hits a dozen or more at one time, game over.

Exit308 June 18, 2017 18:59

Anybody have a slide rule?

tdb59 June 18, 2017 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit308 (Post 4438649)
Anybody have a slide rule?

Slide rules rock !

Rockslides rule !


http://static-15.sinclairstoryline.c...cenicDrive.jpg

Invictus77 June 18, 2017 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit308 (Post 4438649)
Anybody have a slide rule?

Actually yes, but it would take an afternoon of study and probably a call or two or three to my 80 y/o Dad to actually use it again in any usable form or fashion, but yes I do.

ftierson June 18, 2017 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellowhand (Post 4438152)
Yellowstone has another swarm happening now.

Getting ready to blow...

That'll cause the ground to quake a bit... :)

Forrest

yellowhand June 18, 2017 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftierson (Post 4438685)
Getting ready to blow...

That'll cause the ground to quake a bit... :)

Forrest

If that thing lets go in my lifetime, my lifetime will be cut short, not that I got more in front than behind me!:uhoh:

Read somewhere, we here in southern AZ, what a 1000 miles from that caldera, would be under a foot of ash???

It ever blows, I would need to give up smoking, that's for damn sure.:rofl:

yellowhand June 18, 2017 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by hueyville (Post 4438605)
That and 99% of Americans under 35 can't find their way home, do simple math or write if their I Phone and I Pad quit working. It will rest on the shoulders of the tail end of Baby Boomers to pull civilization out of the ashes.

Yea for sure, hunt it, shoot it, clean and gut it, cut it up, and then eat it and wear the skins ain't in most of these snowflakes vocabulary.:rofl:

raubvogel June 18, 2017 22:12

You know, the scenarios you are describing are not worldwide. If you are so concerned about computers, get them from a country that was not affected and move on.

Unless it is a solar-based event, EMPs will be localized.

yellowhand June 18, 2017 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by raubvogel (Post 4438741)
You know, the scenarios you are describing are not worldwide. If you are so concerned about computers, get them from a country that was not affected and move on.

Unless it is a solar-based event, EMPs will be localized.

I think most of us were speaking about a natural event, a world wide event.

But, it does give me pause to think or believe that if we, just the USA were hit by a few man made EMP's how fast the world world left unaffected would be to come to our aid?

When the man said we're only 9 meals away from anarchy, he was foretelling the future.

Once anarchy takes hold, look at Hugo Chavez's old country, people starving in the streets today, don;t see a lot of countries rushing in to provide aide or put a stop to it.

One thing about being the most powerful country on earth, can think of 20 that would like to see us replaced, so why offer assistance at all???


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