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-   -   PTAC Uppers at PSA (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365200)

rowjimmy January 07, 2014 17:58

PTAC Uppers at PSA
 
Let it be known that I really like Palmetto State Armory and have had good service from them at reasonable prices. In fact, they took back one of their PTAC uppers from me as I felt the barrel had a bad crown as it was shooting 6 to 8 moa and let me replace it with a comparable (sans BCG and bolt) premium upper with FN barrel.

I recently got an email from them for a PTAC upper they had on sale with BCG for only $289.99 or so. Definitely a great price for a complete AR upper, but I told myself I would not buy PTAC again. I looked at the ad out of curiosity and noticed the following at the bottom:

"Upper is expected to group per the mil-spec 4-6 MOA."

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...m_medium=email

I'm guessing they may have had other concerns about these guns other than mine if they put that disclaimer on the ad. My question is, is that really mil spec? I don't think they would put something which could obviously be proven false on their website, but 4 to 6 moa? Really?

meltblown January 07, 2014 18:09

Yea I had considered recommending one to a friend but glad I didn't now. Thanks for the heads up.

D. Short January 09, 2014 21:53

Crap....when I saw that price, I jumped all over it. Didn't even take the time to read the description!? Oh well, will just have to wait and see what shows up next week. But if it is truly 4-6 MOA, that is really going to be a disappointment (at any price!).

TOWS220 January 09, 2014 22:32

I think ptac line is an unwise use of money, when known quality parts are so plentiful now.

I have been saying that psa is hit or miss for a while, You have to kNew the games they play to get the best deal and avoid getting screwed. That said, for the savvy sort they have good deals.

rowjimmy January 09, 2014 22:44

I shot a couple 1 moa, 5 shot group with 2 moa ammo (m193) from my FN barreled upper. Now, it won't do it every time, but i think it is a 1 moa rifle. I would have to test it with some precision loads to be sure though.

I am completely satisfied with my FN barreled upper and I really like those Midwest Industries free float rails. The YHM on the original PTAC I had was heavy and clumsy.

Tuscan Raider January 09, 2014 23:14

There was a huge horror story on arfcom the last couple of weeks about those uppers.

Quite a few people posted sewer pipe looking barrels that could not
even be zeroed at 25yds.

I personally am staying away from that brand.

meltblown January 09, 2014 23:24

I went ahead and picked one up with the Midwest free float with mid length melonite 1:9 for $299 for my friend and I to build. They do not have the 4-6 moa listed on that rig and not sure if it is the M4 type barrel. It is his 1st AR although he is an avid hunter. Started wondering if I steered him wrong. But added up the costs of the upper and HG and decided the barrel basically is a wash if it doesn't shoot worth a crap. We can always use the other stuff and buy a better barrel. I called PSA and the guy on the phone had no clue when I asked him.

rowjimmy January 10, 2014 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltblown (Post 3768021)
I went ahead and picked one up with the Midwest free float with mid length melonite 1:9 for $299 for my friend and I to build. They do not have the 4-6 moa listed on that rig and not sure if it is the M4 type barrel. It is his 1st AR although he is an avid hunter. Started wondering if I steered him wrong. But added up the costs of the upper and HG and decided the barrel basically is a wash if it doesn't shoot worth a crap. We can always use the other stuff and buy a better barrel. I called PSA and the guy on the phone had no clue when I asked him.

I did the "bullet test" on mine and found there was a lot of slop. The muzzle even looked to be not perfectly circular to my eye. You will know pretty quickly when you shoot it. You may get 2 or 3 shots that group reasonably well, but then the rest will be all over the target (by my standards.) You might want to cancel the order if you could and tell them you want to upgrade to a "premium". For the difference in the price of a BCG, it is worth it to get the FN barrel. Aim had free shipping on $80 BCG, so you are paying effectively $480 instead of $400. Could you post the link to the upper for $299? I'm guessing it didn't come with the BCG?

MAINER January 10, 2014 11:02

PTAC = Probably Trash And Crap.

I think you would be OK with the FN barreled ones.
The kit I recommended to my son was labeled as "premium" and came with an chrome bore FN barrel and a nice trigger group.

T2 January 10, 2014 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltblown (Post 3768021)
I went ahead and picked one up with the Midwest free float with mid length melonite 1:9 for $299 for my friend and I to build. They do not have the 4-6 moa listed on that rig and not sure if it is the M4 type barrel. It is his 1st AR although he is an avid hunter. Started wondering if I steered him wrong. But added up the costs of the upper and HG and decided the barrel basically is a wash if it doesn't shoot worth a crap. We can always use the other stuff and buy a better barrel. I called PSA and the guy on the phone had no clue when I asked him.

Post up how this looks when it shows up please. I've been watching this item.

FWIW, in reading the PTAC thread on AR15, it seemed more to do with the 1:7 barrels.

I hope you get a good upper!

rowjimmy January 10, 2014 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by T2 (Post 3768448)
Post up how this looks when it shows up please. I've been watching this item.

FWIW, in reading the PTAC thread on AR15, it seemed more to do with the 1:7 barrels.

I hope you get a good upper!

That's probably because a 1/9 isn't tacticool anymore and it generally doesn't stabilize the 75 gr+ bullets effectively. No self respecting arfcommer would admit to owning a 1/9.

In a similar vain, I find it preposterous that PTAC could somehow get the 1/9 right, but not the 1/7....

TOWS220 January 10, 2014 19:18

Ptac, what does psa say? Bare bones less than mill spec. What does that even mean? Sub standard crap?

4x401 January 10, 2014 21:39

Pass on the P-Tac crap boys/girls....:]

ByrnieMac January 10, 2014 23:48

I'm not sure of the difference between the PSA stuff and the PTAC, but from what I've been advised and researched, I wouldn't buy anything PTAC.

As far as 'Mil-Spec' is concerned, I heard on a range a while back that 5 moa was considered in spec for infantry rifles.

And when it comes to the barrels, I have a question.. I used to do the final assembly on M-16's at the FN USA plant that PSA now sources their barrels from. This was about 6 or 7 years ago. Now, at that time, the only barrels made in house were the full length M-16 barrels, not ones for M4's. The only contracts at the time were for M-16A4's for the Army and Marines. Usually 8-9k/month and 4-5k/month, respectively.

Did this change? Does FN now hold the contract for M4's as well? When I was still in the Marines, Colt still had the contract for M4's if I remember correctly. Or at least I never came across a FN M4...

So does anyone know if FN tooled up to make M4 barrels for PSA? Or what? I know a lot can change in 7 years, but I'm still curious. And what are the markings on the "FN" barrels from PSA? Do they say PSA or FN?

I just hope the guys at Palmetto aren't feeding us all a line about the M4 barrels.

rowjimmy January 11, 2014 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByrnieMac (Post 3768774)
I'm not sure of the difference between the PSA stuff and the PTAC, but from what I've been advised and researched, I wouldn't buy anything PTAC.

As far as 'Mil-Spec' is concerned, I heard on a range a while back that 5 moa was considered in spec for infantry rifles.

And when it comes to the barrels, I have a question.. I used to do the final assembly on M-16's at the FN USA plant that PSA now sources their barrels from. This was about 6 or 7 years ago. Now, at that time, the only barrels made in house were the full length M-16 barrels, not ones for M4's. The only contracts at the time were for M-16A4's for the Army and Marines. Usually 8-9k/month and 4-5k/month, respectively.

Did this change? Does FN now hold the contract for M4's as well? When I was still in the Marines, Colt still had the contract for M4's if I remember correctly. Or at least I never came across a FN M4...

So does anyone know if FN tooled up to make M4 barrels for PSA? Or what? I know a lot can change in 7 years, but I'm still curious. And what are the markings on the "FN" barrels from PSA? Do they say PSA or FN?

I just hope the guys at Palmetto aren't feeding us all a line about the M4 barrels.

Interesting background story. Not only is PSA asserting their M4 barrels are FN made (as you can verify on thier site,) but they are selling them with both mid-length and carbine length gas systems as well as M4, A2, Heavy and Pencil barrel profiles IIRC.

TOWS220 January 11, 2014 12:55

I don't question that fn makes barrels for psa, I have one on my go to ar and have been very pleased with it.

I just feel that the ptac line is probably worth avoiding if you are going to shop with psa.

oilcan72 January 11, 2014 14:42

I wish I had heard about all this before I ordered a complete upper from PSA.
Damn!!!

rowjimmy January 11, 2014 15:30

You guys do know, since they take up to 15 business days to ship, you could probably call (it will be a wait) and change your order. I could see them being annoyed if you just want to cancel, but if you are upgrading to a better upper and spending more money, I don't see the issue. he only thing is, I don't think they have any premium uppers in stock right now, blemished or non.

I posted about my PTAC experience some time ago when I talked about my first AR "build" and noted the deficiencies in the PTAC barrel. I thought it was an anomaly, but is apparently the norm.

meltblown January 11, 2014 15:50

I think I'm going to stay with it. My friend wants to get into ARs to shoot a pig probably. I'll check it out and report. As far as the 1:9 barrel, I am hoping it's not the M4. I was thinking more of the government profile. Could make a diff (just from the standpoint of the M4s being shit maybe a different batch) Asked the guy on the phone if it was govt profile and he said yes. But he had no clue.

That 16-inch barrel will be be replaced anywho with a 20. Let him get the feel of it. Main thing I pushed him to do was put money into the Gisselle SSA FCG because he's big fudd gun guy and will freak out on a military trigger

rowjimmy January 11, 2014 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltblown (Post 3769162)
I think I'm going to stay with it. My friend wants to get into ARs to shoot a pig probably. I'll check it out and report. As far as the 1:9 barrel, I am hoping it's not the M4. I was thing more of the government profile. Could make a diff. Asked the guy on the phone if it was govt profile and he said yes. But he had no clue.

That 16-inch barrel will be be replaced anywho with a 20. Let him get the feel of it. Main thing I pushed him to do was put money into the Gisselle SSA FCG because he's big fudd gun guy and will freak out on a military trigger


The ad should specify M4 or A2 (government) profile. With a free float rail, I'm not sure if it really matters aesthetically as it's covered up to the last 4" and there is not much noticeable difference in balance and weight between the two IMO. But I will admit my A2 profile mid-length is really light with the Midwest rail.

If you plan on hunting with it, all the more reason to have an accurate barrel. For the vermin pigs are, there is still no reason to inhibit your ability to make good hits. I dunno, maybe the rifle will be 1 or 2 moa, mine certainly wasn't.

You could have just ordered a 20" barrel to begin with, they just had them in stock. The triggers aren't too bad on the lowers I got, one is slightly better than the other, but not terribly gritty with tons of travel.

Some folks like the PTAC stuff, but I see no reason why they can't manufacture a 1 moa AR barrel easily enough.

meltblown January 11, 2014 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowjimmy (Post 3769171)
The ad should specify M4 or A2 (government) profile. With a free float rail, I'm not sure if it really matters aesthetically as it's covered up to the last 4" and there is not much noticeable difference in balance and weight between the two IMO. But I will admit my A2 profile mid-length is really light with the Midwest rail.

If you plan on hunting with it, all the more reason to have an accurate barrel. For the vermin pigs are, there is still no reason to inhibit your ability to make good hits. I dunno, maybe the rifle will be 1 or 2 moa, mine certainly wasn't.

You could have just ordered a 20" barrel to begin with, they just had them in stock. The triggers aren't too bad on the lowers I got, one is slightly better than the other, but not terribly gritty with tons of travel.

Some folks like the PTAC stuff, but I see no reason why they can't manufacture a 1 moa AR barrel easily enough.

I agree, but I wanted to check out the melonite treatment too. I have an AR Performance 7.62x39 A2 profile 16'inch and it is just bad ass. Shoot's commie junk with good AR accuracy.

CRShooter32 January 11, 2014 18:13

The PTAC barrels are M4 profile, the specs on their site gives the details on the barrels, if it doesn't list it as FN, or PTAC, it's Wilson Arms. The PTACs are budget line, as are the parts kits. They claim, on ARF.com, those bad barrels got shipped by mistake, they were torture test barreled uppers. They are replacing the uppers, but it still leaves questions. BTW, PSA has officially announced they will be selling their own branded .308 lowers, kits, and complete rifles.

inFALible January 11, 2014 23:11

I believe the good, FN barrel kit is the "CMV" kit:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

I believe it costs a bit more than the PCRAP

Bertellione January 13, 2014 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByrnieMac (Post 3768774)
I'm not sure of the difference between the PSA stuff and the PTAC, but from what I've been advised and researched, I wouldn't buy anything PTAC.

As far as 'Mil-Spec' is concerned, I heard on a range a while back that 5 moa was considered in spec for infantry rifles.

And when it comes to the barrels, I have a question.. I used to do the final assembly on M-16's at the FN USA plant that PSA now sources their barrels from. This was about 6 or 7 years ago. Now, at that time, the only barrels made in house were the full length M-16 barrels, not ones for M4's. The only contracts at the time were for M-16A4's for the Army and Marines. Usually 8-9k/month and 4-5k/month, respectively.

Did this change? Does FN now hold the contract for M4's as well? When I was still in the Marines, Colt still had the contract for M4's if I remember correctly. Or at least I never came across a FN M4...

So does anyone know if FN tooled up to make M4 barrels for PSA? Or what? I know a lot can change in 7 years, but I'm still curious. And what are the markings on the "FN" barrels from PSA? Do they say PSA or FN?

I just hope the guys at Palmetto aren't feeding us all a line about the M4 barrels.

That 5moa is what a barrel should shoot after it's been tortured in full auto or burst mode dumping magazines as fast as you can. The heat from it changes the barrel and rifling structure, a barrel that has been fired full auto will never be a long range tac driver,And the 5moa is what the absolutely worst that is acceptable straight from the factory.

ByrnieMac January 13, 2014 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertellione (Post 3770608)
a barrel that has been fired full auto will never be a long range tac driver

I must respectfully disagree with you on that. I used to be issued an old M4A1 that had been around the block a time or two. It was my first long term issued weapon when I got to the counterterrorism unit I was in. My SAW gunner's weapon would go down all the damn time I would pick up the rate of fire where he left off by hammering down mag after mag on FA... as I'm sure several did before me on the same weapon system... yet on qualifying day, I could still call my shots from 500 yards away with no issues. I shot 5 points off of perfect with that same rifle.

Another instance, is the M240G. That beast doesn't do semi. Its balls out or nothing 24/7, yet one of my good buddies was able to get a confirmed kill at 1,800m...the longest I've heard of with the 240 in any conflict.. the sniper team next to him ranged it, and bet him he couldn't do it. They lost

And I'm not saying that FA doesn't wear down the lands and grooves, I'm sure it does, just saying that the giggle switch doesn't immediately ruin a barrel in all situations.

Dirt1042 January 13, 2014 23:18

WTF is a PTAC?

Canuckienns January 14, 2014 03:49

I think that I suckered myself into a PTAC barreled upper also. I did not read the fine print, because every upper I have purchased was an FN or FN hammer forged. I really like the MI Midway Industries free floating forend and I buy them for some builds. Did they add the 4/6 MOA accuracy later on, because I would not take a barrel for free that shot that poorly. Anyhow I finally got it in. Barrel looks decent inside and out, 1/9 twist evenly parkerized. I assume this is not a chrome lined barrel. Upper receiver is the decent split A with a good finish. Bolt CG , God only knows what we are all getting now a days for bolts carrier groups. So very hard to identity. Marked, unmarked, marked all to hell. I must say that the staking was probably the faintest that I have ever received, and one could see a bit of red Locktite on the fasteners. If it is accurate, somebody is going to get a bargain build. If not, as in 4/6 MOA, I will rip it down for the parts. The MI free floating HG rail is worth a $150. I really like PSA, and I get a lot of stuff from them. You have just got to read the details.

rowjimmy January 14, 2014 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirt1042 (Post 3771229)
WTF is a PTAC?

PTAC is the economy line of AR parts offered by Palmetto State Armory. They are a new start up (within the past year or so, but I'm not sure on that.) i could not find them listed independently as a company online.

This is what they told me when I inquired initially, before buying and subsequently returning my first one:


PTAC (Practical Tactical) is a new startup company focusing on the bare essentials of the AR parts world. Their motto “Everything you need and nothing else” sums up their product and company model. P-TAC produces a mid-level quality product so that the rock bottom prices can be passed on to the consumer. Recently Palmetto State Armory proudly accepted the role as an exclusive dealer of P-TAC parts to include multiple product lines including lower parts and build kits, uppers, bolt carrier groups, and charging handles, just to name a few. The quality of these products is still guaranteed, it’s just the frills that have been removed!



Their barrels are not chrome lined and instead its a chrome moly vanadium.



I hope this helps answer your questions.



Tara St.Marie

Palmetto State Armory

Customer Service

803-788-9095

W.E.G. January 14, 2014 15:11

It will probably still out-shoot a Mini-14.

I have plenty of accurate rifles.

If I had time to shoot less-accurate rifles, I'd probably get at least one of these.

...and I'd probably still have that Mini-14.

A sub-$600 bullet hose is still a bullet hose.

Sijones January 14, 2014 15:59

"Will probably outshoot a Mini-14"

Full agreement there!

rowjimmy January 14, 2014 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.G. (Post 3771658)
It will probably still out-shoot a Mini-14.

I have plenty of accurate rifles.

If I had time to shoot less-accurate rifles, I'd probably get at least one of these.

...and I'd probably still have that Mini-14.

A sub-$600 bullet hose is still a bullet hose.

Yeah, but for the cost of a BCG, would you rather be able to hit at 300 yds with your bullet hose consistently?

Life is too short, and ammo is too expensive to shoot 4-6 moa rifles. :rofl:

W.E.G. January 14, 2014 18:09

The market for those guns is primarily guys who won't post a target any further than they can see the bulletholes with the naked eye, or alternatively, a steel target the size of the door of Buick that makes ding-sounds that sound the same no matter where on the steel the bullet strikes.

That they are selling them sans rear sight virtually guarantees that the majority sold will never be fired.
Just pile it on top of all that .22 LR.

Bladewurk January 15, 2014 04:47

Guys please don't buy Crap barrels.
Buy the PSA FN barrels not the PTAC Crap.

Also , someone wanted a 20 inch barrel. Red X has old stock Sabre Defense barrels which are known good quality.
20 inch upper its 1/9 but so what for $375 with the nice MOE handguards.
http://shop.redxarms.com/20-SABRE-DE...20SABREMOE.htm
Rainier has bulletproof Lifetime guaranttee BG for $99 also..
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=sh...roduct_id=3759

meltblown January 15, 2014 08:11

Guess I'll test one and post a report in a few weeks.

Canuckienns January 15, 2014 19:49

Me too!! Got to test one, but I was thinking about using the 1/9 twist barrel for 22lr CONVERSION.

rowjimmy January 15, 2014 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by meltblown (Post 3769162)
I think I'm going to stay with it. My friend wants to get into ARs to shoot a pig probably....

You sure you want to shoot a pig with a 6 moa rifle? :smile:


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=7cff3c37ec9a" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=dd22622167f7" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In all sincerity, I hope you got a good one for your buddy, but based upon my own experience, I'm skeptical.

ftierson January 15, 2014 20:01

I just received (like yesterday) a barreled upper from them, sans bolt/carrier and CH, with the barrel marked

5.56 NATO 1/7 MP CL PALMETTO

It looks very nice but, then again, the claim is that FN made this barrel and not PTAC...

Forrest

CRShooter32 January 16, 2014 14:52

The "premium FN" barreled upper I received last month was marked the same. The PTACs are only marked either 1/7 or 1/9 5.56 NATO. They should have some type of marking on the non CHF FN barrels, so the customers know who actually makes the barrel. At least the PTAC barrels have a "generic" marking on them. Still questioning the non-mpi marked bolts, too easy to get a ptac bolt by mistake.

T2 January 27, 2014 18:36

Well, I couldn't stand it and ordered one of the PTAC 299.99 Melonite uppers when they offered free shipping. It's the one with the Midwest Industries free float tube.

The barrel is M4 profile and marked "DB 5.56 NATO 1X9"

The upper has the square forging mark, and the bore looks fine. I'll try to mount up a scope this week and shoot it this weekend. I'll report back with results.

Overall, I'm perfectly happy with the upper.

meltblown January 27, 2014 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowjimmy (Post 3772537)
You sure you want to shoot a pig with a 6 moa rifle? :smile:



In all sincerity, I hope you got a good one for your buddy, but based upon my own experience, I'm skeptical.

He got it in and it's not an M4 profile. Actually RJ. I figure the barrel is worth $100. I think as he gets into it he'll need a 20-inch barrel or so. Just entry level. If the weather gets better here I'll go and check it out

C-ya February 18, 2014 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by inFALible (Post 3769538)
I believe the good, FN barrel kit is the "CMV" kit:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...rifle-kit.html

I believe it costs a bit more than the PCRAP

This is the kit I ordered for myself and a friend. Neither has been shot yet, but I plan to rectify that this weekend with mine. I'll report back and post pics of the markings on the barrel. They were $480/ea when I ordered them 12-22-13.

C-ya February 19, 2014 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ftierson (Post 3772541)
5.56 NATO 1/7 MP CL PALMETTO

My barrel markings.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...psbv9y5hno.jpg

T2 February 21, 2014 18:15

I finally got the chance to get to the range today.

I'm perfectly happy with my PTAC upper.

Here's 6 shots at 50 Yds using Brown Bear 62gr HP

The sight is a Valdada RDS

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5...ds/image-1.jpg

T2 February 21, 2014 18:22

Here's the build:

It's an M4 profile barrel marked "DB 5.56 NATO 1X9"

I used an AIM BCG, an Anderson lower with J&T/DoubleStar internals, and a DSA stock assy.

As mentioned above, the sight is a Valdada RDS

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g5...oads/image.jpg


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