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-   -   Army,"NO MORE BRASS!" (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421834)

Thorack December 09, 2017 09:30

Army,"NO MORE BRASS!"
 
Well,

One of my office mates just came back from an Army Conference on the next Army rifle. Its looking very likely that the Army will go with case telescoped round that has no brass, Polymer cased. The Chief of Staff of the Army (GEN Milley) has said this is one of his 11 Acquisition Priorities. Our office is moving into high gear and a 1 Star has been put in command, with fully production ready Prototypes expected within a year.

Industry is going to be challenged to the max.

The rds are polymer cased and a little larger in diameter, 1/3 shorter in length, and 40% lighter than brass. The new 6.5mm rd being looked at is 123gr moving at 3000ft per sec.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2016/...d-carbine.html

https://www.textronsystems.com/what-...r-systems/LSAT

Next Industry Day is coming up soon. Wonder which companies will bite at making a firearm that takes a polymer case.

Thorack

yovinny December 09, 2017 10:20

Wait,,,,I thought the military small arms 'Next Logical Step' was going caseless...:confused:

Or am I just thinking 30yrs behind the times...:tongue:

wanneroo December 09, 2017 10:56

Caseless was never going to work because the powder could be exposed to the elements even with all the sealed strips and all, it wasn't practical, as the German Army found out.

MAINER December 09, 2017 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511365)
Well,

The rds are polymer cased and a little larger in diameter, 1/3 shorter in length, and 40% lighter than brass. The new 6.5mm rd being looked at is 123gr moving at 3000ft per sec.

Thorack


Wow, they are catching up to my 6.5 X 55mm Mauser load. They may be on to something here. :D

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 12:51

Just thinking about the side effects of plastic cases, someone is going to have to make this ammo for the public.:D

V guy December 09, 2017 13:03

Based upon the past, and the fact that even Plato had an AR-15, I predict that brass will be with us for some time to come.

300 black and 6.8 SPCII, let alone the Creedmore stuff.......

MacArthur kicked the last attempt at a .270 type round in the head. It was called the Petersen.
300 million firearms cannot be wrong.

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by V guy (Post 4511456)
Based upon the past, and the fact that even Plato had an AR-15, I predict that brass will be with us for some time to come.

300 million firearms cannot be wrong.

I don't know but if the ammo companies that make plastic ammo for the military they should be looking for money from the private market too. Just think about the cost of converting Federal to plastic cases in order to meet military contracts.

Thorack December 09, 2017 13:26

Well,

Watch the video at the Textron website above. The polymer case has no rim so there is no extraction phase. Ejection/extraction happens at the same time.

Weapons that use this polymer telescoped rd are gonna have to be almost new from the ground up.

Thorack

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 13:32

Great video.. just wondering how the regular rifle will be in comparison.

Story December 09, 2017 13:42

I'm sure it'll be thoroughly tested before being issued to line units.

:popcorn:

http://www.markchurms.com/mm5/graphics/brothers-m.jpg

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 13:50

I probably didn't read this right, are they saying all the troops will be useing the same gun?

Thorack December 09, 2017 13:57

Well,

First step is ammo, then gun. Gun will be modular. Same frame will be used for Carbine, rifle, designated markman rifle and maybe even a SAW variant.

This is the current strategy being discussed. Hell yes it will be tested. Ill be one of those involved in developing the tests. Army Test and Evaluation Command, "Truth in Testing".

Thorack

kotengu December 09, 2017 13:58

That's a pretty cool concept. But the video shows testing done back in 2011 - how much has happened since then? More importantly - how long before the Army is surplussing all its brass ammo so I can buy it cheap again???

I still haven't jumped on board with this new-fangled 5.56 round, so I don't see me needing to worry about changing over to this in my lifetime.

Thorack December 09, 2017 14:07

Mainer,

The 6.5 AP projectile being developed will be designed to penetrate level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. AP design is secret and wont be used by combat troops until we meet an enemy that regularly uses level 4 body armor.

Once the design is out it will be used on US Service members.

Thorack

tobinb December 09, 2017 14:15

Minimal weight gain?

123gr vs 62gr ... twice the weight in just in the projectiles ...

What about the chamber / bolt head fouling from the burnt plastic????

Greater minds than ours are working on the next boondoggle ...

Mebsuta December 09, 2017 14:43

It will probably come down to cost. If it works and they can do it cheap enough, maybe it has a chance.

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 14:47

Just guessing but the change will be huge in its undertaking and I bet the difference on how time affects plastic vs brass will be discovered. Old brass ammo still runs today but old plastic is very brittle so how long will the new stuff store.

SWOHFAL December 09, 2017 14:52

Our allies are going to have to get on board with it too, so I see that as a hinderance for quick, easy adoption.

pre1989 December 09, 2017 14:53

All I have seen from Poly ammo will be this will fail baddly ..Last batch of stuff I have pc or the like ammo had a habbit of blowing up in a violent manner etc

I really wonder if they can get it work withoth tearing guns apart

If so it will be a big stept forward with mil tec less weight less mess

But me thinks there is a reason metal cases have been around as long as they have .....

yovinny December 09, 2017 14:56

So, Im guessing this is more like the 1950's Tround than the 1960's gyrojet ?

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 14:58

And the Russians are working on their systems too.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mili...sniper-t-5000/

Tuhlmann December 09, 2017 16:08

Nevermind all that techno-mumbojumbo. You boys are missing the two most critical questions at hand:

1.) How will going plastic have a net decrease in the DOD’s carbon footprint?

2.) How will they be able to keep penguins, seagulls, endangered 13-stripe ground squirrels, roadrunners, bald eagles, sea turtles, river otters, baby harp seals, and Millenials from choking on carelessly ejected and scattered plastic empties?

You crotchety old fart sniffers always miss the bigger issues at hand.

HighRatMaster December 09, 2017 16:35

I imagine there was much the same conversation around the stove at the general store 150 years ago when the War Dept. contemplated going from front stuffer to breech loaded metalic cased cartridge.

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuhlmann (Post 4511564)
Nevermind all that techno-mumbojumbo. You boys are missing the two most critical questions at hand:

1.) How will going plastic have a net decrease in the DOD’s carbon footprint?

2.) How will they be able to keep penguins, seagulls, endangered 13-stripe ground squirrels, roadrunners, bald eagles, sea turtles, river otters, baby harp seals, and Millenials from choking on carelessly ejected and scattered plastic empties?

You crotchety old fart sniffers always miss the bigger issues at hand.

Obviously recycling of spent plastic will be the forefront to save the planet.:biggrin::biggrin::facepalm:

yellowhand December 09, 2017 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511495)
Mainer,

The 6.5 AP projectile being developed will be designed to penetrate level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. AP design is secret and wont be used by combat troops until we meet an enemy that regularly uses level 4 body armor.

Once the design is out it will be used on US Service members.

Thorack

Best guess for fielding this new round and weapon to the troops????

wanneroo December 09, 2017 20:04

It's going to take many years to make this happen and whatever timeframe is being projected, double it.

JonathanW December 09, 2017 20:34

My current project that I have filed a patent for is related to this. My prototype is currently being machined, hopefully my design address the issues that plastic and Caseless have.

notfrommt December 09, 2017 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bawana jim (Post 4511449)
Just thinking about the side effects of plastic cases, someone is going to have to make this ammo for the public.:D

Why would this ever be made available to the public? It’s not a deer hunting cartridge so we don’t need it. (sarcasm)

DoD has a long track history of stifling innovation through bureaucracy; why would this be any different? The industry will not lose any sleep over this. I expect a plasma bolt rifle in the 40 watt range has a better chance of actually being developed, validated, and deployed than this 30 year old “innovation”.

Thorack December 09, 2017 23:02

Well,

If this program moves at light speed it might be in soldiers hands for first unit equipped in 30 months. If the performance lives up to requirements, SOF will see this first.

I doubt this tech transfers to the civilian market as I have yet to find the hunter worried about a 210rd basic loads weight.

Thorack

Tuscan Raider December 09, 2017 23:13

Was wondering what happened with this project.

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfrommt (Post 4511717)
Why would this ever be made available to the public? It’s not a deer hunting cartridge so we don’t need it. (sarcasm)

DoD has a long track history of stifling innovation through bureaucracy; why would this be any different? The industry will not lose any sleep over this. I expect a plasma bolt rifle in the 40 watt range has a better chance of actually being developed, validated, and deployed than this 30 year old “innovation”.

Ya I don't know what I was thinking that the public might want this ammo, after all there is no history of the public shooting military rounds:rolleyes:

:D:D:D Now that was funny..:bow:

Bawana jim December 09, 2017 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511730)
Well,

If this program moves at light speed it might be in soldiers hands for first unit equipped in 30 months. If the performance lives up to requirements, SOF will see this first.

I doubt this tech transfers to the civilian market as I have yet to find the hunter worried about a 210rd basic loads weight.

Thorack

Probably never see it in a three gun match like other military rounds huh.

Mebsuta December 10, 2017 02:49

It needs an acronym.

1769 December 10, 2017 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511495)
Mainer,

The 6.5 AP projectile being developed will be designed to penetrate level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. AP design is secret and wont be used by combat troops until we meet an enemy that regularly uses level 4 body armor.

Once the design is out it will be used on US Service members.

Thorack

Used On? US service members. Not sure I would volunteer for that assignment. :D

slavicshooter December 10, 2017 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1769 (Post 4511780)
Used On? US service members. Not sure I would volunteer for that assignment. :D

"Okay maggots, I need 12 volunteers ".:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh: :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:
~:rofl:ss

kotengu December 10, 2017 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511730)

I doubt this tech transfers to the civilian market as I have yet to find the hunter worried about a 210rd basic loads weight.

No, but the Run N Gun guy certainly is worried about it!

RG Coburn December 10, 2017 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511467)
Well,

Watch the video at the Textron website above. The polymer case has no rim so there is no extraction phase. Ejection/extraction happens at the same time.

Weapons that use this polymer telescoped rd are gonna have to be almost new from the ground up.

Thorack

Might be a stupid question...but...
How do you clear a stoppage? Whatever we make,some will fail. Shove a clearing rod down the muzzle?

Thorack December 10, 2017 09:13

RG Coburn,

From what I have seen remidial action with the polymer cases is the same as with any other rifle. Who knows what designs industry will come up with. Requests for proposal will come out mid next year. We will have to see who comes to compete.

Never met a run n gun guy worried about his ammo penetrating level 4 boron carbide body armor plates. If the civilian market wants this it will come at a premium until its widely adopted. Brass for the civilian market will be cheaper for at least a decade is my bet. Big Army is gonna work on building stockpiles similar to what they have now in brass.

Thorack

partisan50 December 10, 2017 11:00

I have seen a group working on part polymer case ammo for a couple of years. And yes it's for our military as a way to cut weight.

The case head is SS and it about a third of the length and the rest is polymer. They have 7.62 Nato, 300 WM, 338 L done and tested and have 5.56 about ready to go.

I'll see if they will let me take pics of the cases.

Bawana jim December 10, 2017 15:33

The gun community will build a civilian gun for any cartridge that shoots straight. Even if it's only a single shot to start with the folks love new challenges. If the ammo becomes available and I bet it will, the shooters will build guns for it. Plastic doesn't last like brass does so the military will dump unused ammo quicker in my opinion, use it or lose it.

Thorack December 10, 2017 18:01

Well,

Part of the reason polymer ammo is being looked at is because it cannot be reloaded. SOF community has asked for cases that cannot be reused for awhile.

Thorack

Bawana jim December 10, 2017 18:25

Folks will just make their own with a 3D machine or new tech. They will take the empty cases and melt them then rebuild them. Men are smart and will find a way.

wanneroo December 10, 2017 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511954)
Well,

Part of the reason polymer ammo is being looked at is because it cannot be reloaded. SOF community has asked for cases that cannot be reused for awhile.

Thorack

I've heard this before about cases being able to be reloaded, but is the enemy really sitting around with a progressive press and a can of Varget and reloading ammo? I know they do some stuff on the northwest frontier in Pakistan in terms of dodgy ammo and guns they build, but it can't be a widespread problem.

If they want to tackle it, switch to berdan primed brass, that will fix em. I can reload berdan brass but I don't see some guy sitting around in a hut doing it.

Texas Jaguar December 11, 2017 02:35

The Wogs in Pakistan and Afghanistan sit around in their mud huts and whip up SMLE's when there is British ammo to be had and British soldiers to shoot at just as they have hand build AK's now for the same reasons but for different soldiers to shoot at. That is unless a sufficient number of factory built AK's fall into their hands one way or another. They are very patient and proficient people. They will reload Berdan primed or Boxer primed ammunition if and when the need arises. "Allah will provide". Don't make the mistake of selling their capabilities short.

Elwarpo December 11, 2017 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobinb (Post 4511500)
Minimal weight gain?

123gr vs 62gr ... twice the weight in just in the projectiles ...

What about the chamber / bolt head fouling from the burnt plastic????

Greater minds than ours are working on the next boondoggle ...

Plastic and thermoset polymer are 2 different things. Thermoset polymers can be designed to withstand up to 1500 degrees, higher than the melt point of aluminum (1200)

Bubacus December 11, 2017 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanneroo (Post 4511400)
Caseless was never going to work because the powder could be exposed to the elements even with all the sealed strips and all, it wasn't practical, as the German Army found out.

Worked OK in a demo for the G11, but lets see how it held up after long term exposure to moisture.

<iframe width="660" height="402" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TyUY4ojPuM8" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

yellowhand December 11, 2017 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorack (Post 4511954)
Well,

Part of the reason polymer ammo is being looked at is because it cannot be reloaded. SOF community has asked for cases that cannot be reused for awhile.

Thorack

I asked my friend over the weekend, an active duty CSM who was with group until this current assignment, why polymer ammo?

His answer, were to keep the brass from being melted down and used for producing IED's, shape charges, etc.
Said it was becoming a real problem in most areas where they work.
Not so much for reloading, though he did say he'd seen evidence of that as well.

Elwarpo December 12, 2017 10:40

If they go with a thermoset polymer versus thermoplastic one, you can not melt down the polymer and reuse it. The polymer will burn or decompose before melting. Polymers like PEEK (polyetheretherketone) will start decomposing at 600°C (1132°F) and silicone polymers are significantly more heat resistant (up to 800°c/1472°F). As a reference aluminum melts at 1221°F. At that 600C most metals have lost most of their strength and have softened significantly.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/d...-metals-SI.png

So choosing the right polymer will make a heat stable polymer. The real question is finding a polymer that is heat stable, hydrolysis resistant (water will not destroy it), solvent resistant (resists oils and gun cleaning compounds), had the right balance of tensile and elasticity... I am not sure the perfect one exists now commercially, but with the volumes needed for this project, it will.

alphadog58 December 12, 2017 12:13

I think it's a good idea. Have to be other than injection molded. Maybe an adaptation of current blow-mold tech. Plastic is much cheaper than brass. Once the best type of plastic and the manufacturing process is fully developed, it will be a big leap forward in ammo technology. Heck, they make all plastic shotgun shells already...
Larry

jhend170 December 12, 2017 13:50

I'm guessing the case will be part of the propellant. Think solid-fuel rockets or even the Pyrodex pellets. If the entire thing burns up then there are not expended shells ejected. Two less parts to break when you have no worries about extractors and ejectors. I'm also betting on electrical ignition so no moving striker/hammer firing pin parts either.


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