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-   -   Budget 22LR AR upper (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425188)

tac-40 March 11, 2018 16:50

Budget 22LR AR upper
 
I am currently looking at building a dedicated 22LR upper for my AR's. I own a S&W M&P 15-22. While it has been good to me, I cannot use it in any Appleseed program and a couple more local programs because of issues with out of battery firing (kabooms). And, with an Appleseed coming back to the area in April that I plan on going to, the need for an AR 22LR has popped up.

So, I have looked at several sources for dedicated uppers and CMMG seems to be the least expensive with decent barrels. Other companies seemed to have discontinued their models or have units that are not true AR uppers. Priced around $500-550, this is in line with any other plain Jane upper of other calibers.

It appears I can build one using a barrel/bolt setup with one of my unused uppers for about $150-200 less than buying one.

Anybody have any input on which brand it reliable and available? Remember, I want an average upper, nothing match grade or exotic. And yes, the Ruger 10-22 can be had cheaper, but it is not an AR type rifle. I have other 22's I could use if I wanted to.

Tikiman001 March 13, 2018 17:55

Here's what I used for a 22LR conversion:

Colt 604 upper (no FWD Assist, 1/12 Barrel Twist)
Colt Sp1 lower
Stainless CMMG 22 conversion kit (Bravo or Echo, get the Echo if you want FWD Assist) - $135 on Gunbroker
Better-Mag 15-22 Mag Adapter. -$39.95 Redi-Mag

If you want to use your S&W 15-22 mags and have BHO with the CMMG kit, get the Better-Mag adapter from Redi-Mag. At least every time I've used it, the bolt locks back on the hold open for all of my 15-22 mags consistently, and let's be honest, the 15-22 mags smoke the CMMG/Black Dog ones in everything but looks.

Hebrew Battle Rifle March 15, 2018 21:54

I would suggest that you not dedicate an upper to fire .22 LR. With a CMMG kit, it just doesn't make sense to dedicate one.

In regard to Appleseed: Why not shoot 5.56 ammo?

tac-40 March 15, 2018 22:05

Quote:

I would suggest that you not dedicate an upper to fire .22 LR. With a CMMG kit, it just doesn't make sense to dedicate one.

In regard to Appleseed: Why not shoot 5.56 ammo
I actually have an original Colt 22 Conversion kit for the AR. What I am looking to do is build a 22LR upper using a 22LR barrel and bolt in a AR upper. Only good for shooting 22. Not a pop in the kit and shoot 22 then pop it back out and throw in the AR bolt and BC.

The accuracy is just not there, IMHO, with the chamber adapter type kits. The best accuracy I have seen is using the 22 barrel and bolt. Plus, there are some restrictions on using my S&W M&P 15-22. So having another brand, or home built, would solve that issue for me.

Some ranges only allow 22LR shooting for events. So having a 22 AR available would not limit my participation. Plus, with the Appleseed I am planning to attend, you are looking at 200-250 rounds fired over two days. Add that cost to hotels, meals, gas etc, It can get expensive. Saving $75-125 in ammo by shooting 22 is a plus.

tac-40 April 13, 2018 14:20

Just finished a CMMG upper. Function great, but one issue with CMMG mag. Had a couple of FTFs. Then bought a bunch of Black Dog metal feed lip mags. $13 at PSA. No feed issues at all. Installed a Vortex Strike Eagle 22lr scope. Accuracy coming at 0.6 to 0.8 inches at 25 yards using just a front rest with me standing. So potential is there. Happy so far.

cavegeo April 13, 2018 15:02

I was planning to attend a Appleseed shoot with my son and purchased a 15-22 for him. Then Appleseed decided that 15-22 were no longer safe. It appears the people who run Appleseed have some kind of agenda and don't want people to use 15-22 but rather you use one of two Appleseed approved rifles.

I will not attend an Appleseed event until they revise there policy, to me they are just wanting to drive accessory sales to their web page and can't justify the ban on 15-22 as most any 22 lr rifle will on occasion has an OOB event.

My opinion is to say **** you to Appleseed.

tac-40 April 13, 2018 21:03

It is funny that you say that. My first Appleseed was using the 15-22 and I did well. But only three days after cataract surgery, I had issues with those little bitty targets.

Then came the ban. It isn't from the fact that the 15-22 has some issues, it came from the fact that S&W claimed, and continues to do so, that all of the incidents were ammo related and that they had recommended not using a specific brand. Unfortunately for S&W, the APPLESEED organization had documented most of the cases and found that there were several brands of ammo that were involved. Not one specific brand as alleged by S&W. So S&W refused to even acknowledge that they were looking into this matter. Just blamed the ammo.

In all of the cases I have seen personally, I believe the extractor was the issue. I have replaced multiple extractors, that for whatever reason, became dislodged and separated from the bolt. Possibly the errant extractor hit the rim hard enough to detonate the cartridge. Added to this, replacement extractors are no longer sent to gun shops so they can do the replacement. The entire rifle must be sent to S&W for a factory repair. And if you read the description of the aftermarket extractors, they state their items were "modified for better performance".

Examples:

Volquartsen
Quote:

Exact Edge Extractor for the Smith and Wesson M&P 15~~22. The replacement extractor was manufactured through a EDM process to provide exact tolerances. The geometry has been changed to provide positive ejection every time. One geometry change was moving the hook .015" closer to the rim and changing the angle so that it grabs the spent casing with much more precision and control. The extractor is A2 Tool Steel and hardened to Rc 58~~60 so this extractor will not wear out or round over after years of use.


Tandemkross
Quote:

The TANDEMKROSS "Eagle's Talon" Extractor for Smith & Wesson® M&P® 15-22 is a much-needed reliability upgrade that replaces the factory-provided M&P® 15-22 extractor. The factory extractor often can’t maintain a secure enough hold on the spent casing as the rifle is cycling, causing stove-pipes and failures-to-eject malfunctions. TANDEMKROSS "Eagle's Talon" Extractor is CNC-machined with a positive hook that will grab and secure each round until it needs to be ejected.

While the factory extractor can chip- reducing its ability to consistently extract spent casings- the “Eagle’s Talon” extractor upgrade is machined from hardened tool steel for long-term strength and durability.

Stoney April 13, 2018 23:12

never had a problem with my sinder (sp)

cavegeo April 14, 2018 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tac-40 (Post 4569784)

Then came the ban. It isn't from the fact that the 15-22 has some issues, it came from the fact that S&W claimed, and continues to do so, that all of the incidents were ammo related and that they had recommended not using a specific brand. Unfortunately for S&W, the APPLESEED organization had documented most of the cases and found that there were several brands of ammo that were involved. Not one specific brand as alleged by S&W. So S&W refused to even acknowledge that they were looking into this matter. Just blamed the ammo.

In all of the cases I have seen personally, I believe the extractor was the issue. I have replaced multiple extractors, that for whatever reason, became dislodged and separated from the bolt. Possibly the errant extractor hit the rim hard enough to detonate the cartridge.

I have been to Appleseed's web page and have seen no evidence that it has documented any incidents. If it has any evidence it needs to make this information available to the

public.

All the incidents that I have heard about come from forum (SW Forum) threads that reports a Appleseed instructor (no less) had an incident with a rifle that he modified incorrectly and was no longer a Factory spec rifle.

In my opinion Appleseed just does not want the 15-22 to become the defacto rifle for Appleseed events as they have went to great lengths to get aftermarket equipment makers to make accessories for the Marlin and Ruger rifles they promote as Appleseed rifles.

This comes off as just a blatant excuse to prevent people from using the 15-22 rather than the rifles that Appleseed wishes to promote.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...eseed-ban.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...m-15-22-a.html

It has been nearly two years since Appleseed banned the 15-22 what is it going to take to reinstate them? There are thousands of 15-22 sold every year yet I have not heard of any issues with these rifles. This just stinks of pure Bull Shit to continue to ban a rifle for one instructors mishap.

Timber Wolf April 14, 2018 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavegeo (Post 4569956)
In my opinion Appleseed just does not want the 15-22 to become the defacto rifle for Appleseed events as they have went to great lengths to get aftermarket equipment makers to make accessories for the Marlin and Ruger rifles they promote as Appleseed rifles.

This comes off as just a blatant excuse to prevent people from using the 15-22 rather than the rifles that Appleseed wishes to promote.

Believe and do as you will sovereign citizen. After 3 years of involvement with the Appleseed program the only agenda I have seen is people dedicated to safe rifle marksmanship and enjoying the company of real Americans. The Indian is more important than the arrow. And believe me, nobody has any skin in the equipment game, kind of the opposite. We just use what works. Don’t cheat yourself out of some good training by being stuck on one kind of rifle.

cavegeo April 14, 2018 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Wolf (Post 4570087)
Believe and do as you will sovereign citizen. After 3 years of involvement with the Appleseed program the only agenda I have seen is people dedicated to safe rifle marksmanship and enjoying the company of real Americans. The Indian is more important than the arrow. And believe me, nobody has any skin in the equipment game, kind of the opposite. We just use what works. Don’t cheat yourself out of some good training by being stuck on one kind of rifle.

**** you and your horse you rode in on. I have never claimed to be a sovereign citizen.

As for cheating it appears that Appleseed is the one since they ban a rifle without offering any evidence that there is an issue with the rifle.

Since you seem to have some skin in the game then why continue to ban the rifle as there are many of these rifles in use with without any incidents being reported. If the rifle was so unsafe why has there not been any reports of incidents.

Timber Wolf April 14, 2018 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavegeo (Post 4570171)
**** you and your horse you rode in on.

Humm, that is pretty harsh and I am not sure what set that off. I meant no insult but only suggested you are free to do and believe as you will. Enjoy your rifle, glad it works for you. Having no first hand experience with the S&W I don't know myself. I do know the program can teach people to shoot very well. Even in my old, fat, stiff, broke down condition I have managed to some shoot some decent scores.

cavegeo April 14, 2018 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timber Wolf (Post 4570199)
Humm, that is pretty harsh and I am not sure what set that off. I meant no insult but only suggested you are free to do and believe as you will. Enjoy your rifle, glad it works for you. Having no first hand experience with the S&W I don't know myself. I do know the program can teach people to shoot very well. Even in my old, fat, stiff, broke down condition I have managed to some shoot some decent scores.

Well I consider being called a Souvenir Citizen an insult, those who go around claiming they are not bound by the laws of this nation cause the court has fringe on the US Flag, a bunch of conspiracy theorist.

I am free to do what I want and when I see this issue brought up I voiced my opinion that the Appleseed organization is doing this only for a monetary reason.

tac-40 April 15, 2018 22:52

Sorry for the long delay, but here is the basis of the ban:(taken from a post on the Appleseed forum from by a senior member of the Appleseed program)

We have requested Smith and Wesson (S&W) fully investigate the potential problem and respond to us appropriately. Malabar and I were in conference calls with the president and CEO of S&W, their Director of Sales & Marketing Operations and the President of the Firearms Division. They literally called Malabar and I twice a day for about 2 weeks.

We (Appleseed) assisted S&W in getting in touch with the owners of each rifle that we received safety reports on. Once that was done we heard nothing from S&W. At SHOT Show in January 2017 we spoke with their VP of global marketing and operations and inquired about their investigation. He could not make any official comments. We know from our cadre one rifle was sent back from S&W with a letter stating the malfunction was a result of fouling (i.e., operators fault). The other was sent back from S&W with a letter stating the malfunction was a result of using ammo not recommended for use in the M&P 15-22, (i.e., operators fault).

We as an organization cannot make each shoot boss become the ammo police and ensure each shooter is using the recommended ammo for every type of rifle. We also cannot make shoot bosses to ensure each rifle that comes to the line has been properly cleaned or maintained. At Appleseed it is “using a rack grade rifle with rack grade ammo”. However, we as shoot bosses are responsible for the safety of our shooters and the safety of the instructors that get down in the dirt with shooters.


We explained to S&W if they would respond to us, stating there were no safety flaws in the design of the rifle and the M&P 15-22 was safe, we would lift the ban. We were told they would have to run it up the flagpole, and past the lawyers. Since then we have heard nothing.
(emphasis is mine)

I followed up with an e-mail on February 21, 2017 again asking for the results of their investigation. The email went unanswered. I again followed up in March 2017 and again the e-mail went unanswered. The silence is deafening.

At NRAAM in April 2017 I stopped by their booth, and they told me they could not comment further. I asked how many M&P 15-22’s had they had returned with damage consistent with an out-of-battery discharge? I was told they could not answer that. In my mind, who should be better able to answer that than S&W? Again, the silence is deafening.

Therefore, until such time as we can be assured these rifles are safe when they come to the line, they will remain banned.

As soon as S&W responds to our request for follow-up, and can assure the safety of the M&P 15-22 we can determine whether or not the ban will be lifted. We assure the cadre, and the public alike, that as soon as this matter has been settled we will let everyone know. If you do not receive notice that the ban has been lifted that is because it has not been lifted, remains in effect, and S&W has not responded to us


So it seems that Appleseed ask S&W to state their rifles were safe to use and had not issues. S&W chose not to reply. Thus the ban.

yarro April 16, 2018 00:48

My CMMG upper with sear tripp/anti bolt bounce in it works well suppressed or un-suppressed on both AR15 and M16 lowers. I use Black Dog magazines. I think they are gen1. I use Federal high velocity ammo.

-yarro

cavegeo April 16, 2018 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tac-40 (Post 4570760)

We as an organization cannot make each shoot boss become the ammo police and ensure each shooter is using the recommended ammo for every type of rifle. We also cannot make shoot bosses to ensure each rifle that comes to the line has been properly cleaned or maintained. At Appleseed it is “using a rack grade rifle with rack grade ammo”. However, we as shoot bosses are responsible for the safety of our shooters and the safety of the instructors that get down in the dirt with shooters.

So which other manufacture have they demanded a statement from that their rifles are safe to use with any and all ammunition?

Its seems obvious that no lawyer is going to allow their company to make such a overly broad statement. It appears Appleseed is making a demand it knows no company would ever comply with to uphold there ban.

tac-40 April 16, 2018 21:39

Quote:

So which other manufacture have they demanded a statement from that their rifles are safe to use with any and all ammunition?
Not arguing with you. However, the Appleseed Project is a private organization and they have their rules. If they have seen a potential safety issue, it is up to them to make sure it is removed. Otherwise the liberal legal eagles may be able to use these incidents to shutdown a good program of marksmanship training.

The S&W 15-22 was/is a great little rifle and a lot of people have bought them. Appleseed has asked S&W to investigate and address their concerns. Apparently S&W has decided to not reply other than to say the issues were the fault of the users and/or ammo related. That kind of leaves the Appleseed no other choice and they made it. As I posted earlier, I have seen issues with the 15-22 extractors and initially, replacement parts were available from S&W. About the time the Appleseed brought up their issues, S&W quit providing replacement parts and required the owner to send the rifle back to the factory for repair. A very coincidental decision on their part. Fast forward to last year. While speaking with a S&W rep about the M&P line and upcoming new models, I asked the rep if there had been any progress in resolving the Appleseed claims about the 15-22. His reply was, "you mean the used of nonrecommended ammo that is known to have issues?" I then asked him if they had provided Appleseed with their determination and he did not answer.

Kind of a pat answer if you ask me.

I like the Appleseed because it teaches stuff that I had forgotten, gives me (and others) a choice to develop their rifle skills, allows me to have a fun weekend doing what I like. By not being able to shoot a weapon in my stable, I decided to build my own to see if I could build one better. And it looks as if I did. Testing still in progress, but the results are looking good.

cavegeo April 16, 2018 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tac-40 (Post 4571182)
I like the Appleseed because it teaches stuff that I had forgotten, gives me (and others) a choice to develop their rifle skills, allows me to have a fun weekend doing what I like. By not being able to shoot a weapon in my stable, I decided to build my own to see if I could build one better. And it looks as if I did. Testing still in progress, but the results are looking good.

This is what pisses me off is that they claim to provide training but now only want students who chose to pick a rifle that Appleseed claims to be safe but in reality is one that they make money from selling accessories.

I spend good money to equip my son with a rifle and magazines that fit him and would meet the requirements of the training only to have them change the rule and now prevent my son from attending cause my only other rifle (10-22) does not fit him and he can not shoot it except off a bag on a table due to it length.

So rather than attend an Appleseed, me and my son shoot Steel Matches at a local range each month were the only requirement is that he display safe shooting skills and they don't care which rifle he uses as long as he is safe while shooting it.

tac-40 April 17, 2018 20:39

Quote:

This is what pisses me off is that they claim to provide training but now only want students who chose to pick a rifle that Appleseed claims to be safe but in reality is one that they make money from selling accessories.

I spend good money to equip my son with a rifle and magazines that fit him and would meet the requirements of the training only to have them change the rule and now prevent my son from attending cause my only other rifle (10-22) does not fit him and he can not shoot it except off a bag on a table due to it length.
Initially, I was irritated too. Especially since I had used my 15-22 at an earlier Appleseed. But instead of fussing about it, I decided to use the opportunity as an excuse to build a new upper. So I did. And it looks to be a winner so far.

I am glad that you and your son are still character building and going shooting together. That is a benefit that goes long and far. I just ask you to not forget the Appleseed Project. As your son grows and is able to handle another rifle with ease, please consider going to one with your son. I believe that both you and he will receive enjoyment you did not truly expect.

cavegeo April 17, 2018 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tac-40 (Post 4571558)
I am glad that you and your son are still character building and going shooting together. That is a benefit that goes long and far. I just ask you to not forget the Appleseed Project. As your son grows and is able to handle another rifle with ease, please consider going to one with your son. I believe that both you and he will receive enjoyment you did not truly expect.

I don't think I could ever attend an event put on by an organization that claims to be about patriots when its clear they put financial concerns ahead of patriotism.

When he is able to handle his AR carbine (5.56) that we built this past Christmas, we will attend training but I will pay an upstanding trainer rather than to give money to an organization that is a shill.


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