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billiboy
February 16, 2003, 08:35
AZ House Passes Bill To Deny
Mexican ID Cards
From Bonnie Eggle
2-15-3

How great to hear the AZ legislators did the right thing. Now if Tom Tancredo can get his groups of supporters everywhere to encourage the same denial of the Mexican ID cards we will feel better.

Bonnie

Original Message

Subject: AZ House Passes Bill to Deny Mexican ID Cards - (Yes on H.B. 2316) From: mjohnson12@webtv.net Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003

Congratulations to those of the Arizona House who passed H.B.2316 denying the government acceptance of the Mexican matricula consular ID cards. Senate action is now needed. It is not the purpose of government at any level to further the illegal invasion that America and Arizona are experiencing and the stated goals of Latino extremists who wish to impose their culture and desires upon U.S. It is utter arrogance for those of other lands to ignore our generous immigration procedures by violating our borders and sovereignty and then expect to be treated as citizens or better with benefits.

ALL this has to be curtailed, NOW ! This bill is a start together with Rep. Tancredo's similar bill at the Federal level. Additionally, legislation has to be introduced to DENY all other benefits now available to illegals (See URL article below regarding the improper educational benefits now wrongfully allowed illegals). There is only ONE proper solution the mass, illegal Invasion and that is DEPORTATION with a 10 year restriction on reapplying for entry and PROSECUTION under the existing laws by employers who hire them.

"Plyler vs Doe: The Solution" By Howard Sutherland http://www.vdare.com/sutherland/the_solution.htm

From: mjohnson6@webtv.net Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 Subject: Tancredo Bill To Halt Mexican ID Card Use - ( Yes on H.R. 502 )

THE PROBLEM

The drums of war are beating louder and louder each day - nowhere do we hear even a whisper from the White House or its appointed speakers about the physical INVASION OF AMERICA that continues day after day on our border with Mexico. Eleven words were all that G.W. spoke referring to the *border* in his State of The Union speech.

The silence on this issue is growing louder than the drums beating to go into Iraq and yet George W. Bush and Tom Ridge refuse to acknowledge this INVASION. WHY, I ask, WHY? We all know that *silence is consent* so all I can assume is that our government is in full consent of the Mexican Invasion of America. If we are under attack by foreign invaders do we have the right to protect ourselves since the U.S. Government ignores our plight? The planned attack on Iraq is transporting all our armed forces half way around the world and leaving our homes sitting ducks for any one wishing to take us over.

The invading troops are well dispersed across America in every city and rural area. Our local police forces have been raided by being called up to the National Guard for other posts. Why are we being placed in this position when it is well known (albeit ignored) that we are being INVADED by thousands every day.

Checkpoint Charlie has been deserted, abandoned, and invaders have no reason to even slow down as they cross into America and spread across our land. We even get to pay for them to be here by providing them with tax funded benefits and the bleeding hearts begging legislators for more tax funds to provide these invaders with all the benefits of LEGAL Americans. We are to view these criminal invaders as just poor people seeking a better life and future. Do you view that burglar and maybe rapist and killer who breaks into your private home as someone seeking a better life and future? And let us not forget the drug smuggling and related problems from that import.

Gen. Douglas MacArthur knew way back when what was going on in the US Government - our greatest enemies were positioned in all levels of government and they have only increased in the years since then.

That is why we hear nothing from the White House about this INVASION of AMERICA. "Do not watch that little man behind the curtain - keep your eyes on the projected images on the screen." We will protect you - just hand in your guns and open your doors for inspection - you have to give up all those outdated *rights* and *freedom* in order for us to *protect* you. <dripping sarcasm in case you missed it.>

Jackie Juntti WGEN idzrus@earthlink.net

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation, not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." " General Douglas MacArthur.

The following "Teen Editorial" was written by 15-year-old Timothy J. Workman. What does this 9th grader know that most members of Congress don't?

The Key Word In 'Illegal Immigrants' Is 'Illegal'

By Timothy J. Workman

The Workmans, Bennetts and Cioffis traveled months at sea to gain freedom properly. For 400 years, my family's blood has been shed on the battlefields of the Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, WWII and Vietnam. My uncles and grandfathers before me fought savagely against foes, and together they and their brothers in arms fulfilled their duty to God and country.

That is what being a true citizen of America's ideals and values is about, and it is gained by fighting for the cause of freedom and independence, and doing so passionately, whether it is in a courtroom or on a battlefield, after being admitted lawfully and honorably to our society. More and more I see today the infrastructure of our nation's ideals crumbling, and the meaning of our citizenship and independence waning.

Would you believe me if I told you that a great-uncle (to the sixth power) of mine took part in the Battle of Bunker Hill? Believe it because it is true. It is true that he and his wartime comrades were among the first to set the standards for all conflicts our flag would encounter. It is true that he lived at the high point of American society. What placed him, and to this day places him above all else is bravery, a trademark of full-blooded Americans.

What my beef is for you today, ladies and gentleman, are the illegal immigrants. What ticks me off, mainly, is that they feel they can hop the border and as long as they can make it to Tucson, they are scot-free. They mooch off of our government, we pay with our tax dollars for them to live an American life and in return - as I see in my mind as a sum of all of their care for lawfulness and freedom - an illegal Mexican flipping the American flag the bird.

Yes, you heard me, I didn't stutter once, and I mean what I say, you better believe it. Don't get on my case, because I think the Mexicans who gained freedom properly are the most deserving of it, and they deserve a round of applause.

The illegal immigrants and President Bush deserve a reality update and a one-way trip back to Chihuahua. Bush has got some nerve, demeaning the meaning of American citizenship by proposing amnesty.

So, I guess uhhh 1/4 doesn't this make the sacrifice of prior generations meaningless? All of our uncles and grandfathers who fought and died for freedom are essentially just handing America off to a mass of unlawful immigrants. They wouldn't want that, and there is nothing they can do from beyond the grave, therefore, I take it upon myself. Freedom so easily attainable that it doesn't even have to be worked for anymore makes it meaningless. Sure, the illegals may say that they sacrificed their lives on an endless, foodless, waterless trek through the heat of the desert for freedom. But did they really? Or was it for the selfish purpose of using preferences, yelling race discrimination and generally compelling each of us to ensure, as their right, a superior life for them?

Yes, that is selfish, because they take what isn't lawfully theirs and they think that is freedom. A vast majority, I guarantee you, are greeted with American tax dollars once they have stepped all the way through the door of the American household and tread on the carpet, whose threads are the unity and structure of the legally recognized people of America.

That's us, people! America has been hoodwinked and spat upon by these people, and it is time to weed out those who ask not what they can do for America, but just what America can do for them, which cannot be done by condoning unlawful immigration.

If we can all think back to the 1980s we can really see how much the amnesty helped then. Well, it didn't help then, or now, did it? Some people have this habit of thinking that somehow the illegal immigrants turned legal will suddenly bolster our economy and will "be forced to pay tax dollars."

You, reader, can see how ridiculous that statement is. Some use a different name, steal an identity with another person's Social Security number, and taxes are paid under that number. So, in essence, our government is being paid. If we want to lead America into the future as a healthy political state, and as an America with upright, honest qualities, then we will start with turning away the idea of illegal immigrant legitimacy.

Why has our country stooped so low? Why don't we learn from the past? It is as if President Bush is trying to please everybody, which he must believe is his ticket to a second term, and he is doing so by embracing issues that are opposite of what is the best for the citizens of America.

He is the ultimate Republicrat. His job is not to please but to uphold the Constitution, mind you, and doing otherwise is inexcusable. Breaking the law, and breaking the law and being rewarded makes a farce out of our ancestors' blood, sweat and tears. [ End ]

Timothy J. Workman is a freshman at Academy of Tucson. Copyright The Tucson Citizen, 2002

Related Articles

"Stealth Amnesty Is Still Sheer Lunacy" by Phyllis Schafly http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/feb03/03-02-05.shtml

"Slipping Through" by Jon Dougherty http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30917 (and) "Losing The Border War" http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30795

"Abolishing America's Southern Border" by Samuel Francis http://www.vdare.com/francis/witch_hunters.htm

"The Real Action Is In The Reaction" by Al Burns http://www.etherzone.com/2003/burn020403.shtml

"The U.N. -- Marching Towards Oblivion" by Henry Lamb http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30814

"An Open Letter To Pres. Bush" by Allan Wall http://www.vdare.com/awall/sotu.htm

"Americans Subsidizing Their Own Dspossesion" by Joe Guzzardi http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/americans_subsidizing.htm

"What To Do About Immigration" by Peter Jones http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec18.html

"America As A Third Rate Nation" by Dorothy Seese http://www.sierratimes.com/03/01/31/dorothy.htm

"I'm Just Looking For A Better Life" by H. Millard http://www.sierratimes.com/02/12/10/edhm121002.htm

"The Mexican Fifth Column" by TomDeWeese http://www.newswithviews.com/your_govt/your_government50.htm

Related Websites

www.illegalaliens.us www.sovereignty.net www.limitstogrowth.org www.americanpatrol.com www.immigrationcontrol.com www.immigrationshumancost.org www.stopimmigrationnow.org www.thesocialcontract.com www.vdare.com www.cis.org

THE SOLUTION

Deport all illegal aliens and stop catering to them and diluting scarce resources. www.deportaliens.com

Subject: FAIR Legislative Update From: www.fairus.org

Rep. Tom Tancredo Introduces Bill to Halt Acceptance of Foreign ID Cards

Last week, Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), Chairman of the House Immigration Reform Caucus, introduced legislation, H.R. 502, to bar acceptance by the federal government of identification cards issued by foreign governments. Tancredo was joined by 12 of his colleagues as original cosponsors of the bill. More than a year ago, the Mexican government initiated an aggressive campaign throughout the United States to convince states, cities, counties, towns, local law enforcement authorities, and banking institutions to accept the card as legitimate identification. Sadly, many of these jurisdictions have passed laws accepting the card, as have several banking institutions around the country.

This critical legislation would be an enormous step toward reversing these actions.

Action Needed to Advance this Legislation Please contact your Representatives by phone, fax, and letter and ask them to cosponsor this important legislation. Also contact your Senators and ask them to support similar legislation in the Senate. Also ask your Representatives and Senators to join you by calling and writing to Secretary of State Colin Powell, demanding an explanation for the State Department's silence on this critically important matter of U.S. sovereignty. In addition to the talking points below, please review our issue paper on this topic.

Talking Points

Only an illegal alien would need such a card. All foreign nationals legally present in the United States are eligible for or already possess U.S. government-issued documentation.

Foreign government-issued documents are not verifiable. General acceptance of foreign-issued identification documentation will make illegal aliens nearly invisible to immigration enforcement authorities.

Mexico's actions to advance acceptance of its Matricula ID card is an attempt to get from states and local jurisdictions what it cannot get from Congress-amnesty.

The actions of any foreign government to reach bilateral agreements with individual states and local jurisdictions compromise the federal government's exclusive responsibility for conduct of foreign policy under the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

The failure of the federal government to formally object to Mexico's efforts with individual states and local jurisdictions is an abdication of its exclusive power to conduct foreign policy under the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

From sgunn@fairus.org Subject: FAIR Legislative Update Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003



Tancredo Introduces Legislation to Require Secure and Verifiable Identification for Federal Public Benefits

Last Thursday, Representative Tom Tancredo (R-CO) introduced H.R. 502, legislation requiring that identification used to obtain federal public benefits or services, including law enforcement services, meet restrictions ensuring that it is secure and verifiable. If enacted, this bill would prohibit any federal agency, commission, or other entity within any branch of the federal government from accepting, recognizing, or relying on any identification document not issued by a federal or state authority or issued without verification by a federal law enforcement, intelligence, or homeland security agency. Tancredo introduced this bill after holding an Immigration Reform Caucus press conference on the growing acceptance of the Mexican Matricula consular card. (See below for more information on this issue.)

States Pressed to Accept Mexican ID and Give Driver's Licenses to Illegal Aliens

Attempts are being made in states across America to pass legislation permitting the acceptance of Mexican Matricula consular ID cards and the issuance of state driver's licenses to illegal aliens. It's clear from this flurry of activity that our opponents are working on the state level to accomplish what they cannot get done in Washington. If you have information on similar attempts in your state, please report this activity to FAIR by replying to this message or emailing Sandra Gunn at sgunn@fairus.org. We appreciate your assistance and will inform you of further developments on this issue, as they are sure to arise.

For background on this issue, see FAIR's latest issue briefs:

<>The Mexican Matricula Consular Should Not Be Accepted for Official Purposes

<http://www.fairus.org/html/04181106.htm/>Driver's License Security: Essential to Homeland Security

Please forward this message to interested friends, acquaintances, and email lists. For current immigration news, please visit the <http://www.steinreport.com/>SteinReport. You can visit our website at <http://www.fairus.org/>FAIR or go to the <http://capwiz.com/fair/home/>Legislative Action Center to find your representatives and local media contact information. For other information, call FAIR's legislative department at (202) 328-7004.

jt325i
February 16, 2003, 17:25
Good job...... now if only we could get the liberals in CA to accept this...... afterall once they are in they are in. America is only as strong as its weakest link.

Enquiring Minds
February 17, 2003, 04:38
Wow, that is quite the lengthy post, but on target.

However, there is buried in there just one brief line which is the key to the whole problem: PROSECUTE EMPLOYERS WHO HIRE ILLEGAL ALIENS!

HA! Never going to happen, not without an armed uprising of the TV-addled sheeple.

Red4
February 17, 2003, 12:28
I have a team of "stunt" readers still reading the original post, but I'll jump foreword and say this...

All they have to do is come on out to Tennessee and get a drivers license...we give 'em to ANYBODY! And no, this is not meant to be cute, TN will give anybody a drivers license unfortunately.
:mad:

NewtoFals
February 17, 2003, 17:49
man...someone sure has a 'thing' for the southern border.:rolleyes:

JRottenjr
February 17, 2003, 20:20
The borders need to be CLOSED NOW!! You wouldn't believe the wave of brown skinned folks who have invaded the Southwest. The white man is now a minority in this part of the country, and soon it WILL be the same nationwide. :mad: :skull:

Treborer
February 17, 2003, 21:00
Oil and Gas and Agrabusiness,

Oil and Gas And Agrabusiness, when they don't have to withhold payroll taxes and SS, well they make an S-load more dough.

I suggest you move. no rush.

You can't fight a riptide

you swim sideways to preserve your strength.

Till the next wave.:bow:

vmtz
February 17, 2003, 23:05
Oh boy. Here we go with the anti-Mexican rant again.

YOU GUYS are mornons.

Vince

Tim McBride
February 18, 2003, 01:08
Originally posted by vmtz
Oh boy. Here we go with the anti-Mexican rant again.

YOU GUYS are mornons.

Vince

Nothing anti about it. People just get tired of having there tax dollars support people who are not citizens, wether they be mexicans or whomever.

_Tim

Derby FALs
February 18, 2003, 03:17
Originally posted by vmtz
Oh boy. Here we go with the anti-Mexican rant again.

YOU GUYS are mornons.

Vince

It has gone far beyond being a "Mexican" problem.

"The numbers of unauthorized immigrants smuggled across this porous border dumbfound the imagination. To date, the U.S. Border Patrol has apprehended 158,782 illegals in 2001. By the Border Patrol's own admission, it catches one alien in five, and admits that around 800,000 have slipped across the U.S. line this year. The local ranchers, who have been watching the border for several generations, strongly disagree. They contend the agency only nets one in 10, and estimate that in 2001 over 1.5 million unlawful immigrants have crossed into America in what the Border Patrol calls the Tucson Sector.

Another agent, of supervisory rank, stated, "The smuggling traffic of Mexicans has really slowed. We are experiencing a tremendous increase in OTMs" – border lingo for "other than Mexicans." When queried about the ethnic make up of the OTMs, he answered, "Central and South Americans, Orientals and Middle-Easterners." Middle-Easterners? "Yeah, it varies, but about one in every 10 that we catch, is from a country like Yemen or Egypt."

Border Patrol spokesperson Rene Noriega stated that the number of other-than-Mexican detentions has grown by 42 percent. Most of the non-Mexican migrants are from El Salvador and other parts of Central America, she said, but added that agents have picked up people from all over the world, including the former Soviet Union, Asia and the Middle East. "

L/FN
February 18, 2003, 04:33
Here is a link to Ranch Rescue media page.
The upper part of the page has video clips and the lower part of the page has news articles. There's alot of stuff happening down there that isn't being reported on the main stream news.

Ranch Rescue is a organization that has come about to organize volunteers to help watch over ranches and farms along the border that are getting overrun.

http://www.ranchrescue.com/media.htm

Larry

Pluribus
February 18, 2003, 05:33
I don't want to think anyone here is racist either. I married a beautiful woman of Spanish Basque/Mexican ancestry and both of her parent's immigrated here legally in 1947. Father in law is a Korean vet and PROUD to have served. Ask him if he's Mexican and, he'll say no, but that's where I'm from. Oh, so, you're Mexican/American? No, I'm an American, he'll say. He's expressed the same distaste at our southern border incursion's the same as any other honest man. The key word in the phrase " illegal immagration " is well " illegal ", he say's. That's all the deeper that well need's to be dug, say's he. One of the wisest old guy's I know.

Doug

vmtz
February 18, 2003, 08:10
Originally posted by limeyinaz


Oh come on Vince,

I don't think anyone here is racist (least I hope not), no-one is anti-Hispanic, they're just tired of all this illegal immigration.

I know that New Mexico has a tender spot for everything Mexican, but you can't agree that this open border policy is doing either nation any good in the long run, can you?

BTW, what's mornons?

Limeyinaz,

The problem is that many people have this idea that illegals are collecting all sorts of benifits off of the government. The reality is that it is not true. Now, there maybe some that do commit fraud, but that is the same as blaming all of us gun owners for the crimes of a few.

Vince

Timber Wolf
February 18, 2003, 08:48
YOU GUYS are mornons.

You don't mean "Mormons" do you?(Kidding!)

Pluribus: my first love was a beautiful young Basque girl. Man, does that bring back pleasant memories of my innocent youth, sigh. I ended up marrying an equally beautiful but tall, blonde haired, blue eyed Southern belle, after dating a lot in between. It's all good. ;)

Steggo
February 18, 2003, 09:33
Originally posted by limeyinaz


So the reports on Fox and other networks concerning illegal aliens overburdening health care networks and receiving social security benefits are untrue?




OK one more time:

Network news stories that support your views (immigration, war in Iraq etc.) are true, well researched and good material for enlightening the ignorant masses

Network news that does not support your view (gun control, hunting, etc.) are false, innacurate, politically motivated BS

Steggo
February 18, 2003, 09:51
Originally posted by limeyinaz


So the reports on Fox and other networks concerning illegal aliens overburdening health care networks and receiving social security benefits are untrue?




OK one more time:

Network news stories that support your views (immigration, war in Iraq etc.) are true, well researched and good material for enlightening the ignorant masses

Network news that does not support your view (gun control, hunting, etc.) are false, innacurate, politically motivated BS

vmtz
February 18, 2003, 12:28
Originally posted by limeyinaz


So the reports on Fox and other networks concerning illegal aliens overburdening health care networks and receiving social security benefits are untrue?

Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement).

Just what is your stance?

Limeyinaz,

Sometimes you believe them and sometimes you don't, but how does one decide when the media is telling the truth?

It seems that we have discussed this topic on more then one occasion. Other then relying on the news media do you have anything to support your point? And Bill is correct: "more Arizona foolishness."

Finally, there is a historical basis for what you are calling a "race card." Do a search on the Brazeros program (sp) and migrant farm workers.

Vince

Sword of Laban
February 18, 2003, 15:09
I have personal experience in the medical burden department, and yes they are a burden. Fools bury their heads in the sand and toss platitudes around while saying nothing.

I realize that all the usual suspects have shown up again to provide no content other than liberal farcical doublespeak.

I wonder why I never see these people talking about their rifles, or their WECSOGing experiences or anything FAL related, maybe being politically correct takes up too much of their time… Sound like they need a build badly,

vmtz
February 18, 2003, 16:28
Limeyinaz,

No one is slinging mud and none of my comments are directed at you.

I simply said that if you have support for your case state it, with proof, and we can talk about it. But to just take your word just because....

Regarding the loss of our standard of living, I doubt that any illegal is taking away your job in this country. In fact, it could be argued that illegals are good for the country, since they have to spend money, work and consume, therefore adding to the economy.

Vince

Sword of Laban
February 18, 2003, 17:23
It could be argued that illegals are good for the economy but it would be wrong. Both Legal and Illegal Mexican nationals send most of their legal or illegal income back to Mexico. We are boosting their economy by draining our economy. If you take wealth and give nothing back you are a burden.
The main reason they can afford to send so much of their income back is that they have no problem living off of subsidies and using our “free” healthcare. These are facts. I live in an area full of Mexican nationals. They ignore zoning laws and housing restrictions, all of our local government agencies have mostly Spanish speaking employees our free clinics are buried under Mexican patients. You literally do not hear English spoken at all in the clinics.
There is no requirement to give ID’s to be seen or treated. I do contracted computer support work at these clinics as they had to fire all of their computer staffs due to budget restraints. All of this has taken place over the last ten years. Before that there was a small hard working Hispanic community here who lived as part of the community. Now we have gangs and more pouring in all the time.
My Brother in law is engaged to a Mexican girl I would like to give her story. 19 years ago her mother was pregnant. She snuck across the boarder into the States. She received first class medical care in southern California and gave birth to her daughter. She then went back to Mexico the mother of a new US citizen. Three years ago this US born dual residency girl decided to move to Oregon from Mexico. She hooked up with my brother in law and has been able to send every penny she makes back to her mother in Mexico, she is constantly talking about how great Mexico is and how she cant wait to be able to return. She shops non-stop using his money to send gifts back to her friends. Yes he is a fool but is it were not him it would be Uncle Sugar.
Am I anti Mexican, no but I despise people who only wish to exploit our generosity and have no intent to give anything back, who hate our country even as they reap the benefits it can bestow. Make your apologies for them as you tie the knot around your own neck. I know first hand what is happening in my community where are your facts?
Now go build a G1 kit, smile, and know it loves you.

Sand Pirate
February 18, 2003, 19:12
My good friend Vince and I have had this discussion before. Vince knows good and well that a sizeable number of illegals are draining the resources of this country, because I told him so. Ask Vince why the Santa Teresa Post Office in Sunland Park, NM (population next-to-nothing) is larger than most of the substations in El Paso that service much larger areas (and more populated, too). Ask Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day? Nawwwww, couldn't be that. Vince knows about my first-hand accounts, because I told him about them over a year ago.

Do I need to go on and on about arresting illegals with WIC cards? How about illegals with hundreds of dollars of food stamps? How about illegals with fists full of prescription drugs, always filled at the hospital pharmacy (read FREE to the illegal alien)? Should we discuss the thousands of ambulance runs for illegals? How about the thousands upon thousands of births of "brand new citizens" to illegals that will never pay the bill? Police calls to alien on alien violence? What about the $3000 spent for every fire-rescue rollout when some illegal alien hurts himself trying to cross the border illegally?

Should I relate my personal, first-hand experiences about these leeches on American society, gathered over a ten-year period of daily interaction with illegal aliens? Why should I bother? Facts won't make a difference to those with closed minds. They'd rather listen to some egghead pundit from back east that's never seen an alien since he fired that last nanny. Those types of people are SO much more reliable than someone that's been there and done that, got the scars to prove it.

So, wanna face real life? Say the word, and I'll start tellin' stories.......

JRottenjr
February 18, 2003, 22:34
In case y'all were wonderin' if I'm a racist, the answer is no.
I live in Phoenix, in the local media, whenever there is a shooting, child molestation/abduction, baby killings, rapes, auto "accidents", whatever, at least 80% of the time it's a mexican name associated with it. This is no BS. These folks are POURING over the border, DAILY! It's insane! There is a place not far from me that the city set up for "day workers" to hang out. They spent $26K setting this up! I've seen the "day workers" hanging around Home Depot bothering people coming out with their purchases, trying to get work. I think it's wrong to encourage this. My .02.

NewtoFals
February 18, 2003, 23:03
If you don't want them....quit hiring them. Simple as that.

Tim McBride
February 18, 2003, 23:16
Originally posted by NewtoFals
If you don't want them....quit hiring them. Simple as that.

Yep, the legislative needs to make the penelty harsher for hiring illegals. Unfortunetly they won't do much. A large restuarant chain down here gets raided probally 3-4 times a year for illegals and just keeps on hiring them.

I don't want, them, and they sure as hell ar enot working for my company.

_Tim

NewtoFals
February 18, 2003, 23:41
Here's an article i found.

http://www.imm-usa.com/rd0209c.htm


Every one talks about the mexican are leeching off the taxpayers, free medical, free food, whatever......what about the 'AMERICAN' leeches. Are they not leeches also?
Do I need to go on and on about arresting illegals with WIC cards? How about illegals with hundreds of dollars of food stamps? How about illegals with fists full of prescription drugs, always filled at the hospital pharmacy (read FREE to the illegal alien)? Should we discuss the thousands of ambulance runs for illegals? How about the thousands upon thousands of births of "brand new citizens" to illegals that will never pay the bill? Police calls to alien on alien violence? What about the $3000 spent for every fire-rescue rollout when some illegal alien hurts

I'm sure my cousin a police officer can change this to read.

Do I need to go on and on about arresting citizens with WIC cards? How about citizens with hundreds of dollars of food stamps? How about citizens with fists full of prescription drugs, always filled at the hospital pharmacy (read FREE to the US citizens)? Should we discuss the thousands of ambulance runs for citizens? How about the thousands upon thousands of births of "brand new citizens" to citizens that will never pay the bill? Police calls to citizen on citizen violence? What about the $3000 spent for every fire-rescue rollout when some citizen gets hurt doing something illegal.


Leeches come in all nationalities colors including.....[GASP] americans lets not single one group out and start including them all. Oh sorry it's ok not to include american leeches cause their americans :rolleyes:



I paid a mere 9k in fed taxes last year and i don't make that much money to begin with......i don't like having to pay for people that sit around not working whether they are americans or not.

At least the illegal mexicans are here to WORK not just to sit around with their thumbs up their butts. The gentleman that said that the mexicans were outside of stores bothering people looking for jobs....highlights my point. When was the last time a white guy came up to you on the street and begged you for a job?



However, i do recognize that immigrants illegal or not and not just mexicans play a vital role in the US.

Imagine if we had to foot the bill (higher prices) for paying highly skilled american Union workers to pick our fruits and veggies? Kill animals for consumption? You think house prices and the cost to maintain structures and roads are high, Wait till you have every worker getting paid $20 an hour. Anybody want a $20 an hour nanny, house cleaner.....office cleaner? Let's not forget medical and dental benefits, workers comp. for these skilled workers. The US gov knows that illegals are essential to the economy.....so they put a bandaid on things....hence the border patrol.

On another note......everyone also talks about all this money that the mexicans are sending back to mexico.

SHOW ME PROOF! You can't because you don't know how much people are sending back. When my dad was illegal he would send a whole $100 back a month. Not bad........it's to bad that my grandparents had to feed themselves and 5 other kids with that money.

If you really want to talk about money being sent back to mexico then look at all the AMERICAN drug addicts here in the good old USA. They probably send back more money than all the mexicans combined......to bad it goes to the drug lords and not to feed someone. IF YOU DON'T WANT MONEY GOING TO MEXICO QUIT PUTTING THAT SHIT UP YOUR NOSE IN YOUR VEINS AND QUIT INHALING IT AND TEACH YOUR KIDS RIGHT.


Sand pirate: could you please tell the public how much were all the drugs worth that were intercepted at the mexican border last year? Here's a recent article....

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/sections/archive/topstoryjmp/9-22-02/News4.htm


And that's just what they caught and it only mentions the border patrol, what about US customs seizures, DEA, and local law enforcement seizures. Imagine how much actually came in and how much money went back south. And i bet not a single illicit drug user PAID TAXES ON THOSE DRUG PURCHASES! DAMN THEM! :rolleyes:

vmtz
February 19, 2003, 07:55
Limeyinaz,

Rolling your eyes does not prove your point.

Sword of Laban,

Am I anti Mexican, no but I despise people who only wish to exploit our generosity and have no intent to give anything back
By your post it does not seem you are willing give anything. So how does someone, your soon to be sister-in-law, who works and spends her money the way she wants to make her a bad person? I wonder what type of person you are supporting countries that would ban guns? And why are you not supporting American products? Do I have any right to critize you for how you spend your hard earned money? I am guessing the answer is "no." So why is it any of your business how she spends hers?

Sand Pirate,

Good to see you around and hope you are doing well.

Now, back to your argument about the post office, how do you know what those people are doing? I have been to a post office here where I live and have seen the same thing, but it has been white people picking up checks. I wonder if they are doing the same thing you accuse the Mexicians of doing?

Also, how do they get free prescription drugs? Most hospital phamacys charge or at least the ones I have been too have charged me. I know that sometimes people get free drugs, like antibiotics, because mywife, a nurse, has told me that she knows doctors who will give patients some from stock, but it is because those people are so poor they can't afford to pay for the medication to make them well. This is regardless of race. This is not directed to you, Sand Pirate, but to the members of this board who complain about helping the poor, are your hearts so hard that you would deny someone medical care, would you do that to a child? If you claim you are a Christian how does that work with what Christ teaches?

Vince

JRottenjr
February 19, 2003, 09:18
Originally posted by limeyinaz


The rollings of my eyes is the reaction to You proving my point


It is interesting to see how Vince and NewtoFals are trying to side track the entire subject by claiming racism and how "white folks are just as lazy"

Well, I'll tell you what Newtofals, those white folks (and I take YOUR comments as racist) are CITIZENS.

This thread is about Illegal Aliens not Mexicans, not hispanic americans, not black americans, not white americans, NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS

ILLEGAL ALIENS

Did you get it yet?





This too is true. "ILLEGAL ALIENS" most where I live happen to be "Latino" .

Will+1
February 19, 2003, 09:36
Vince, Hospital pharmacies write off their bills just like the doctors in those hospitals do. They are required by law to treat anyone. The corner pharmacy isn't. That's why they go to the emergency room and get their prescriptions filled there. The prescription costs are tagged onto the whole bill which is then written off. Believe me I know what I am talking about. In my profession I have seen more than one darn hospital bill! I am good friends with the local hospital district's collections attorney and know what the heck is going on.

I despise American "leeches" too. No ethnic or national group has a corner on the lazy and stupid market. But, as long as they are here legally they are entitled to whatever our society says they are. If they are not here legally then they don't exist as far as I am concerned. They are entitled to nothing.

We have a large packing plant here in town. One of the biggest in the country. You know who the best workers are? Laotians. I have had dozens of them as clients over the years. Every darn one did it the legal way, every one. They have a little ethnic enclave not far from the plant.

They live several families to a home and they work darn hard. Their homes are well kept and tidy. Yes, they are Americans, doing crappy work. Their jobs and their standard of living are threatened by cheap, illegal labor. These folks keep to themselves, rarely get in any trouble and send their kids to school and DEMAND that they learn English and go to school so they don't have to work at the plant. It's a fact.

Seems like a RICO suit was just filed against Tyson foods for the use of illegal labor. The Union Workers saw a conspiracy to artificially deflate their wages through the use of this labor and got upset. I hope the bankrupt them over it.

As far as what products would cost if we had to pay "full price". Who knows? I do know that well paid workers spend more money as they have more disposable income. They buy all sorts of consumer goods, expensive cars, second homes, boats etc....I imagine that well paid workers would create just as much demand in the economy or more than the illegals do. That means all the goods and services that we deliver as part of the economy would be in more demand and so I see no difference in the end.

Sand Pirate
February 19, 2003, 10:09
newtofals- When one finds himself in a hole, the first order of business is to stop digging. Let's fix the problem of illegal alien leeches first, then the problem of LEGAL alien leeches, then I'll be happy to cut off all the legal citizen leeches that live off my hard work. One leech at a time is fine for me....Come to America legally, and pull your own weight.

Vince, I know what those people are doing because I lived with them day in and day out. I talked to them, worked with them, arrested some of them. Legal aliens with I-586 Border Crossing Cards coming across the bridge to pick up their U.S. Government check and take it back to another country. Illegal aliens arrested with checks from the Dept. of Agriculture and Lone Star food stamp credit cards.

Even if one subscribes to the idiotic idea that the government should take my money at gunpoint and give it to someone who didn't earn it, shouldn't they at least give it to a legal citizen? Is that asking too much?

vmtz
February 19, 2003, 11:15
Limeyinaz,

Still waiting for you to prove your point.

Will+1,

Gee wife has over 15 years working as a nurse and I spent 10 years working in hosipitals and I never saw what you discribe.

Sand Pirate,

I assume you are opening their mail.


All,

Lots of anecdotes, but little else.

Vince


P.S. Anyone willing to discuss the Christian thing to do?

Sword of Laban
February 19, 2003, 13:58
Vince, I am still trying to get a grip on your comments.

My point is that as a liberal agitator, I believe the evidence is overwhelming that this seems to be your purpose here, that you at least try to answer personal experience for personal experience.

A number of posters have now covered their personal experiences that show the disadvantages to our country and our way of life brought on by criminal immigrants.

You have stated that you have heard a lot anecdotes. Lets use a synonym yarns but little else. I agree by that definition any information given in these posts will be yarns that you can choose to ignore. You seem to feel that we need to prove something to you.

We have shared our experiences and you have asked where are the facts. I believe that no information will change in any way your true feelings about this. You support the right of leaches to do what they wish, they will and I do not support laws that address non-violent behavior that is not applicable to the security of a free state. At the same time there are laws in place that prohibit criminal invaders from even being here much less being here and doing what criminals do lie, cheat, and steal. To back that statement up, any medical treatment or subsidies they receive can only be received through lying. Any services they receive here are thefts. The fact that they did not enter the US the way that all legal Immigrants have proves them to be cheaters.

Your primus appears to be that we need to show our Christian kindness to these downtrodden masses. We have and we do despite the fact that they despise us for it and look at our good works with contempt. After all we are arrogant gringo’s who stole their property and got wealthy on it while they were stuck in a land incapable of economic success. The fact that their government keeps all the wealth and lets none trickle down to the people appears to be overlooked here. If they want a better life they need a change in government not more uncle sugar handouts. As long as we give they will take and nothing will improve, ever.

Edited to remove a vast number of typo's. Vive la revolución!

vmtz
February 19, 2003, 17:01
Originally posted by limeyinaz


Vince, I think you have clearly proved by your posts (which lack any significance) that you are a "mornon". You can keep evading the point if you wish, and calling others racist, which only shows your true colors.

The "point" of the thread is "illegal immingration is illegal " and it should be stopped. You are obviously disagree with this point of view.

Until you come up with an alternative for "Illegal" immigration, I will not respond to your attempts to take the thread of topic.

Good day.

Limeyinaz,

Your reading skills have failed you and your logic is not far behind. Yet you still maintain you are correct, but as I said before, why are you right just on your word and I am not?

I have not called you a racist, but it the shoe fits wear it.

As for the point of the thread, it was about Id cards...

Sword of Laban,

I am glad that you have shaired your experiences and my experience is that whites are really the ones on welfare and lazy. So am I right or wrong?

The point of my post is to use your head and think. The truth may not be what you have been told.

Vince

Sand Pirate
February 19, 2003, 17:45
Vince- You assume correctly. In some cases I did look in their mail. In other cases I asked them and they told me. In other cases they volunteered the information. One very popular game played in Sunland Park, NM was this: be an illegal alien, get drunk, get into a fight with your neighbor (who is also an illegal alien), then run to the nearest Border Patrol agent and turn in your neighbor. Be sure to include all the juicy details about the illegalities your neighbor is involved in: alien smuggling, dope smuggling, car insurance fraud via staged "wrecks", welfare fraud, ad infinitum...... I got to see a lot of fun stuff like that. EVERY day.

I'd love to talk about the Christian response here. Christ told me to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. He did not tell me to leave that job to a government. I do more than my share of "charity" work, on top of all the money the government takes from me.

How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?

Sand Pirate
February 19, 2003, 18:01
One other thing for my friends Vince and newtofals: Much seems to be made of the race of a welfare recipient. Let me state for the record that I could care less what color you are. If you are pink with purple toenails and living on my money, I want you to stop.

For me, I guess I do have a "leech hierarchy" ranked from most aggravating to least:

illegal alien welfare leeches
legal alien welfare leeches
welfare leeches

Lawyers are in there somewhere, but that's another topic :p

The charge of "racist" used to bother me years ago, because I knew it wasn't true, and it hurt that someone would think that of me. Now it just makes me laugh. Race-baiting poverty pimps have overplayed that card with me, and it holds no power. Not speaking to FALFilers here, just in general.

vmtz
February 19, 2003, 18:01
Originally posted by Sand Pirate
Vince- You assume correctly. In some cases I did look in their mail. In other cases I asked them and they told me. In other cases they volunteered the information. One very popular game played in Sunland Park, NM was this: be an illegal alien, get drunk, get into a fight with your neighbor (who is also an illegal alien), then run to the nearest Border Patrol agent and turn in your neighbor. Be sure to include all the juicy details about the illegalities your neighbor is involved in: alien smuggling, dope smuggling, car insurance fraud via staged "wrecks", welfare fraud, ad infinitum...... I got to see a lot of fun stuff like that. EVERY day.

I'd love to talk about the Christian response here. Christ told me to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. He did not tell me to leave that job to a government. I do more than my share of "charity" work, on top of all the money the government takes from me.

How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?

Sort of begs the question, but if you feel what the government does is wrong, then why work for them or take money in the form of pay from them? Sorry I know it is off topic.

Vince

Sword of Laban
February 19, 2003, 18:16
Doh... Vince you got me. I was concentrating on what you were saying and didn’t bother to read your tag line! You totally agree with us and are simple stimulating debate. Well I did have fun with it but I have had enough non-spouse or firearms stimulus for today. Very subtle!

_________________________________

Vince

"But so long as my critics just devote their energies to personal attacks instead of addressing anything I post, I'll rest assured that my arguments are sound."

_________________________________

NewtoFals
February 19, 2003, 23:49
This thread is about Illegal Aliens not Mexicans

Well, then i apologize....but the articles posted in the originating post sure has alot to do with mexicans. Don't see too much talk about asian, or european, or canadian illegals there?

Ok....the thread is not about mexicans :confused:


Well, I'll tell you what Newtofals, those white folks (and I take YOUR comments as racist) are CITIZENS.


And how in the hell do you know? Did you ask for their citizenship? What white folk are we talking about? Did i mention names? Do you know who 'these' white folks are? Please clue me in? I have a friend who's wife is as white as snow.....but she must be a citizen right? Wrong she's from canada and illegal too. There you go assuming that all 'white's' are citizens. I guess all 'browns' are mexicans and all yellows are 'japanese'?

But for your info.....i am not racist. The man who was my best man at my wedding and is also my sons godfather and is my best friend of 20 years is white....i consider his family to be my second family. I use the word 'white' so some people can see what it feels like when people use the word 'mexican' the 'wrong' way and group all mexicans together. It doesn't seem very fair to group all 'whites' together does it?

I am an american as well, i have lived here all my life, i have served 5 years active army and 3 years in the reserves i have more physical problems for my age due to having served my country. I have NEVER received ANY type of aid from the government even when i needed it the most and was fully entitled to it.

But, i know my roots.....i don't claim to be of 'spanish' decent as many 'MEXICAN-AMERICANS' claim to be (especially in the New Mexico area). I know i am of mexican decent i couldn't get away from it if i wanted too......my skin is as brown as any 'mexicans'. But if YOU want to label me a 'racist' that's fine. After all you must really KNOW me.

And Sand Pirate i merely mentioned your name because you are well aware of the amount of drugs and money going back to and from mexico. You call me your friend....and i am. I don't know where you work but if you are in the laredo sector i might have even waved a friendly good bye or have probably received a call from me to get illegal aliens off railroad property who knows you might have let me play with the cool night vision cameras mounted on the 'blacked' out trucks? I interact on a daily basis with bp agents. Did you hear of the agent that got ran over by a tractor trailer in laredo about a year or 2 ago, I pass the white cross with his name on it every single day to work. I never bothered learning his name, but i talked to him often. When i see that cross i can honestly say that i feel pain. I applaud every single border patrol agent and police officer.....although some sure do act like their shit doesn't stink. You guys are actually doing something about the problem by putting on that green uniform and walking out in the bush at night looking for people risking a bullet in the back or getting snake bit, instead of sitting back in the comfort of your home 3000 miles from the mexican border spouting off shit on a message board and blaming everyone and everything under the sun. You might hate my views but that's ok, i respect you and the uniform you wear and i can honestly say that i am jealous of you guys sometimes. Too bad i couldn't wait as long as the gov. wanted me to or else i might have been sitting next next to you in that explorer.


BTW keep up the good work saving them guns.

vmtz
February 20, 2003, 07:34
NewtoFals,

Good post and you are correct. Did you know that Mexicain/Americains have won more Metals of Honor then any other group?

Vince

Sand Pirate
February 20, 2003, 07:45
Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?

newtofals, thanks for the kind words. I don't see that we disagree all that much.

The neat thing about the Files here is that we can argue about this stuff back and forth across the nation. The sad part of the Files is that we can't go out and shoot together afterwards.

ABOMS
February 20, 2003, 08:15
People complain about one race or another but I my short time on this earth I have found good and bad in all races,some people work and some will not buy choise and in my opinion and this is just my opinion if every one in the USA would at least try to pull their own wate it would make it alot easier on everyone and when I say everyone I mean everyone.

Sword of Laban
February 20, 2003, 12:56
Anyone who legally comes into this nation with he intent to become an American and take advantage of our free society I am proud to call brother. Those brave men and women from all races and creeds who like myself chose to serve in the armed forces deserve everyone’s respect. While I was in we had German, Hispanic, and Philippine immigrants who joined to do their part. God bless them.

My problem is with those who come here criminally and to tell the truth those who legally are here but insist on bringing the same baggage with them that made their country of origin so horrible that they would abandon it. That is not to say that they cannot have their own cultural identity but it should not interfere with their ability to assimilate into our society. If they must send money home to help support their families left behind let it not be the only reason they are here. I would hope that this would simply be a precursor to them moving their families here to become part of the American dream and not simply a leach on the body politic.

billiboy
February 20, 2003, 15:04
Illegal Aliens Eligible for Social Security Benefits


Thursday, February 20, 2003
By Matt Hayes


Annie was an ethnic Chinese born in Malaysia who had legally emigrated to the U.S. decades ago. She entered my law office with her mother, who clutched a well-worn copy of a Chinese language book called What You Need to Know About Life in America that is eventually encountered by most immigration lawyers.

Annie knew her mother had no legal basis to remain in the U.S. She had overstayed her tourist visa and had never applied for any type of immigration benefit beyond that, though she had managed to remain for years, working off the books and going undetected by the INS.

Annie had brought her mother to my office not for an immigration matter, but for retirement planning. She had one question, "What do I have to do to qualify her for SSI?"

SSI, or Supplemental Security Income, is a federal cash benefit program for persons 65 or older, or those who are blind or have a disability. SSI payments are generally unavailable to most people already receiving Social Security benefits, though an individual may be able to receive both if combined household income and resources fall within the SSI limits. Besides cash payments, persons who are eligible for SSI are automatically eligible for most state-administered Medicaid programs.

SSI is funded through the payroll taxes of Americans. But you don't have to be an American to receive SSI payments. Like food stamps, Medicaid and almost every other form of social insurance that America has developed to help its citizens, SSI is targeted by people from other countries as a tool to materially improve their lives without work.

The 1996 Welfare Reform Act may have erected barriers to a non-citizen's eligibility for SSI, but it did not come close to ending it. The very group Congress sought to make ineligible for SSI, people who may have entered the U.S. illegally but through a series of happy accidents permanently reside here under color of law ("PRUCOL" aliens), has been able to hold on to SSI eligibility through a combination of lawyering and lobbying.

What You Need to Know About Life in America was first published in Taiwan in the late 1980s. It provided readers with a step-by-step guide on how to come to the U.S. and apply for public assistance, including SSI. It figured prominently in the debate that led up to the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, and most thought that the book, and what it stood for, would go away with the act's restrictions on public assistance for non-citizens.

The book, however, is still around, frequently in photocopied form, and has been edited to reflect the new realities of public assistance for non-citizens. Like its readers, What You Need to Know About Life in America hasn't gone away; it has just changed its tactics.

"PRUCOL" aliens are people who have either entered the U.S. illegally or who have overstayed their visa, but who the INS has decided not to remove from the U.S. One may wonder how it is possible for the INS to know that an alien is in the U.S. illegally and make an affirmative decision to not remove that person, but built into the Immigration and Nationality Act is an "escape hatch" that permits any immigration judge to indefinitely withhold an order of removal for any alien whose removal from the U.S. would create great hardship. Though that person will probably never have legal immigration status, he is entitled to several forms of public assistance.

But PRUCOL aliens are not nearly the major threat to social security. The Bush administration has reportedly completed a draft of a treaty between the U.S. and Mexico that will give the Mexican government at least $345 billion in Social Security payments for Mexicans who have worked in the U.S. legally and illegally. The treaty, which is unique in that it provides a foreign government Social Security money even for those of its citizens who have worked illegally in America, may be timed to coincide with the 2004 elections.

If the draft treaty becomes law, it will dismantle the chief provision of the 1996 Welfare Reform Act, a law which has saved U.S. taxpayers $72 billion since inception, because it will give Social Security payments to illegal aliens and legal aliens who have not paid into our payroll tax system for the requisite 10 years.

There are other assaults to Social Security. For years, local Social Security offices have issued Social Security cards to illegal aliens if one was requested in connection with an application for a state driver's license. Social Security Administration employees and supervisors, like Yolanda Vargas in Texas and Andrea Turner in New Jersey, have been caught selling Social Security cards to illegal aliens, who use them later in life to apply for benefits.

Most federal agencies regard a person whose immediate relative has just petitioned her into the country as a PRUCOL alien, and therefore someone potentially eligible for public assistance. So it was that Annie filed a petition for her mother, who had never paid taxes. She was paroled into the U.S., stopped working and started receiving her check about 14 months later.

Matt Hayes began practicing immigration law shortly after graduating from Pace University School of Law in 1994, representing new immigrants in civil and criminal matters. He teaches at Berkeley College, and is author of The New Immigration Law and Practice, a textbook to be published by West Legal Publications in October, 2003.

billiboy
February 20, 2003, 15:10
For newtofals and vmtz, do you get it now.:?



Afghanistan Illegal Surfaces Locally, Humane Borders Not Surprised
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By Som Lisaius , News 13

An Afghanistan illegal was taken into custody Tuesday by the US Border Patrol in Tucson. The man says two Mexican nationals smuggled him into the country. He does speak English though he wouldn't tell us his name. Sources tell News 13 when the men got to a southside neighborhood, the Afghan man jumped out of the car as a Tucson Police car drove by. The man told police he was afraid the accused smugglers were going to kill him...because he couldn't pay them for bringing him into this country. "There's a lot of people that are coming that are not Mexican." Dr. Robin Hoover is president of Humane Borders...and pastor of First Christian Church on Speedway. He's the man primarily responsible for the network of water stations along the Arizona border... "To reduce the number of people who are dying out here on a regular basis," he says. Hoover says about a million immigrants try to cross illegally into the United States each year. And while the overwhelming majority are Mexican--about 98 percent he says--there are some exceptions. "There's people from Yemen, the people from Brazil, Saudi Arabia." Or in this case...someone from Afghanistan. "One need not leap automatically to think this is a terrorist from Afghanistan or that there's a war-related incident or terrorist incident going on here," Hoover says. By his own admission, though, Hoover says the possibility exists should Al Queda or Taliban forces take the initiative. "It's relatively easy to get into Mexico using fake documents...or even simply coming from one country of origin to another. Mexico has no reason to believe they're terrorists headed into the United States." Does that raise any red flags in this case? Without more information, Hoover says it's impossible to say.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=1138334&nav=14RTE4yr

billiboy
February 20, 2003, 17:13
made it all up, caught again.:uhoh:

Personally, my interest in border control was non existant, until 9/11, the passage of the homeland security and the patriot act.

They (the ptb's) talk about the grave terrorist threat, and allow anyone to enter with little to no resistance and stanglehold the law enforcers on the border.

Hypocritical at least, treasonous at best.

vmtz
February 20, 2003, 17:58
Billyboy,

So far you have shown that we are being overun by Chinese born in Malaysia and anAfghanistan illegal.

Limeyinaz,

As to your comments on Mexicain Americans and the Metal of Honor, I guess if you were born here you would understand.

Vince

azski
February 20, 2003, 20:53
Originally posted by Will+1
Vince, Hospital pharmacies write off their bills just like the doctors in those hospitals do. They are required by law to treat anyone. The corner pharmacy isn't. That's why they go to the emergency room and get their prescriptions filled there. The prescription costs are tagged onto the whole bill which is then written off. Believe me I know what I am talking about. In my profession I have seen more than one darn hospital bill! I am good friends with the local hospital district's collections attorney and know what the heck is going on.



I've been reading this thread and of all the truth about how illegals DO cost US citizens, the above quote is just too crazy for me to leave alone.

I have been working in hospitals since 1976 and hospital management since 1981 and I think I know a thing or two about costs and write-offs. Yes, we are required to treat anyone who needs 'emergency' care. Yes, if you can not pay for it, it is 'written off'. But please remember... the hospital still had to pay for that pill, that x-ray film, that room, those tests and the staff even though the patient does not have to. The pharmacy companies do not tell the hospital to forget about paying for the meds since your illegal leech patient refused to even pay a single dollar for their care because someone told them that in America they didn't have to.

WE end up paying for everythink that is written-off! WE pay the salary of the staff who cared for that patient. WE pay for the items they use (and sometimes take home with them). The hospital can not ask the workers to work for free just because the patients who are in the ER or on the units are not paying their bill.

The arguement that since the hospitals write it off it really doesn't matter is just plain stupid. Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it? No one wants to get nothing for all their time and work, but the government tells the hospitals that they have to. So to meet payroll and continue to have supplies sent to them so when we need them they are available they need income. To get this income, they have to increase the costs to the patients who actually work and have insurance.

That's why an aspirin cost $5.00. That's why your total bill is in the thousands for a few days. And THAT is why we who work for a living and pay our taxes and support this great country pay hundreds of dollars a month in health care premiums to insure our families! Believe me, hospitals are not rolling in the money. They have to cover those without insurance and those who are here illegally living off the benefits designed to cover US citizens.

azski

Sand Pirate
February 20, 2003, 21:26
Vince, I've answered your questions. Would you answer mine? There are two you haven't answered yet: 1. How Christian is it to take my money, at gunpoint, and give it to someone that hasn't earned it? 2. I've earned my salary with 10-16 hour days. What has a welfare recipient done to earn the welfare check?

One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that? (that's three questions now, if anyone is keeping track here)

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 10:41
Originally posted by vmtz
NewtoFals,

Good post and you are correct. Did you know that Mexicain/Americains have won more Metals of Honor then any other group?

Vince

Are they Mexicans or Americans?

If they are Americans, what is your point?

It is AMERICANS who have won more MOH than any other group.:p

If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 11:13
Vince,

I understand your point.

Please understand mine.

You don't know if Mexican-Americans have received the most MOH, because they are one of the few groups of people serving in the military who distinguish THEMSELVES by including their ancestry in their title. African-Americans are another group that comes to mind. Everyone else just considers them selves American, and rightly so. I think that if everyone played this little game, you would find the stats for the Mexican-American MOH recipients would be given a run for their money by the Polish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, French-Americans (OK, maybe not them), English-Americans, Irish-Americans, Russian-Americans, Spanish-Americans, Croatian-Americans, Basque-Americans, Portuguese-Americans, and, well…you should get my point by now.

vmtz
February 21, 2003, 11:54
Originally posted by azski


I've been reading this thread and of all the truth about how illegals DO cost US citizens, the above quote is just too crazy for me to leave alone.

I have been working in hospitals since 1976 and hospital management since 1981 and I think I know a thing or two about costs and write-offs. Yes, we are required to treat anyone who needs 'emergency' care. Yes, if you can not pay for it, it is 'written off'. But please remember... the hospital still had to pay for that pill, that x-ray film, that room, those tests and the staff even though the patient does not have to. The pharmacy companies do not tell the hospital to forget about paying for the meds since your illegal leech patient refused to even pay a single dollar for their care because someone told them that in America they didn't have to.

WE end up paying for everythink that is written-off! WE pay the salary of the staff who cared for that patient. WE pay for the items they use (and sometimes take home with them). The hospital can not ask the workers to work for free just because the patients who are in the ER or on the units are not paying their bill.

The arguement that since the hospitals write it off it really doesn't matter is just plain stupid. Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it? No one wants to get nothing for all their time and work, but the government tells the hospitals that they have to. So to meet payroll and continue to have supplies sent to them so when we need them they are available they need income. To get this income, they have to increase the costs to the patients who actually work and have insurance.

That's why an aspirin cost $5.00. That's why your total bill is in the thousands for a few days. And THAT is why we who work for a living and pay our taxes and support this great country pay hundreds of dollars a month in health care premiums to insure our families! Believe me, hospitals are not rolling in the money. They have to cover those without insurance and those who are here illegally living off the benefits designed to cover US citizens.

azski

Sadly, you are only telling less then half the story. By your post you would only blame the illegal alien for our healthcare ills. You have left out the part that hospitals have a legal duty to treat anyone. You forgot to mention that many of the patients Americans or not do not have health insurance, the bloated managment and HMO's. We won't mention that before caps were placed on what could be charged hospitals were very profitable.

So answer me this, if it does not fall within your profit margins or if people can't pay, they should not be treated to medical care? What do you think Jesus would say?

Sand Pirate,

Vince, I've answered your questions. Would you answer mine? There are two you haven't answered yet: 1. How Christian is it to take my money, at gunpoint, and give it to someone that hasn't earned it? 2. I've earned my salary with 10-16 hour days. What has a welfare recipient done to earn the welfare check?

One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that? (that's three questions now, if anyone is keeping track here)

Actually you have not really answered my question, but that is ok. I don't agree with you analogy, but lets go with it.

Your point is that what the government is doing is stealing. Right? Well that is one of the big ten of the thou shall not do's. But I also think you would agree the receiving stolen property also falls under the thou shalls of the big ten. So by your own logic that makes you a "fence." On that final day, I'll save you a spot in hell.

As to working "10-16 hour days," still does not make it right by your logic. In fact, that has all the moral culpability of the often used and lame "I was just following orders."

Slash-5

If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?

You might want to talk to Limeyinaz about his brother.

You don't know if Mexican-Americans have received the most MOH, because they are one of the few groups of people serving in the military who distinguish THEMSELVES by including their ancestry in their title. African-Americans are another group that comes to mind. Everyone else just considers them selves American, and rightly so. I think that if everyone played this little game, you would find the stats for the Mexican-American MOH recipients would be given a run for their money by the Polish-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, French-Americans (OK, maybe not them), English-Americans, Irish-Americans, Russian-Americans, Spanish-Americans, Croatian-Americans, Basque-Americans, Portuguese-Americans, and, well…you should get my point by now.

No, there are ethnic groups that retain their culture and are Americans. Jews, asians, and indian come to mind. We are all not white and we all do not want to be white.

Vince

azski
February 21, 2003, 14:34
Originally posted by vmtz

So answer me this, if it does not fall within your profit margins or if people can't pay, they should not be treated to medical care? What do you think Jesus would say?
Vince

To be quite honest... yes. If the care is not emergent (i.e. limb or life-threatening), there is no reason to go to the ER. Instead go to one of the free clinics set-up and paid for by the government to care for those who can not afford routine/elective medical care. I have seen with my own eyes patients being transfered back to Mexico from hospitals because their care was not life saving, but it was VERY expensive. So the US taxpayer then foots the bill to have the patient taken by ambulance to an accepting hospital in Mexico. Some Mexican hospitals reject the transfer because they also don't want the free-loader in their facility. So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???

As far as what Jesus would do... I'll bet he would get them over their emergency and then ask them to treat others like he has treated them. But don't hold your breath that they will be volunteering their time at hospitals changing beds and bedpans. That would be below them... and why should they have to work like the rest of uswhen all they have to do is demand it for free? If you feel so strong about caring for their day-to-day aches, pains, rashes... please feel free to volunteer at one of the free-clinics and lets see how long it takes before you realise that your hard earned tax money is being handed out to those who would not call 911 for you if they saw you hurt and bleeding on the side of a road in their 'hood'.

Now for the US citizens who also leech off the overzealous govenment hand-outs (which should actually be hand-ups, not outs). This thread is not about them. If you want to start a new thread, be my guest. My feelings are the same regardless of race, color or religion. You should pay for what you get.

When I lived back east I also was like you, uninformed (or are you just willfully blind to the truth?) about the reality of the vast numbers of illegals of all nationalities coming across the border to take advantage of the rights and privileges of the US government. But please remember, these rights and privileges were not given to us free. They were paid for with the lives of many legal citizens who died for the very flag that they are using to wipe their butt with.

If you want to be an American, join us legally and obey our laws. If you want to be an illegal and lie and break the law to get these rights and privileges, that's were we have to draw the line.

azski

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 14:48
Originally posted by vmtz

No, there are ethnic groups that retain their culture and are Americans. Jews, asians, and indian come to mind. We are all not white and we all do not want to be white.

Vince

I find it interesting that you bring race into this.

When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American? I haven’t. Why? Because they are just American like you and me. Period.

I was raised in rural Minnesota. If any of you are from there, you know that most are from Swedish or other Nordic descent. They all eat Lutfisk and say things like “Yaa, you betcha” a lot. They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why? Well, having talked to my friends and relatives about this very thing, they say it is because they came here to be Americans, and that is what they are.

Vince, most Americans, since the founding of this country, came here to start a new life. They were grateful for the opportunity for a better living. As a consequence, they chose to learn English (and were proud when they did.)

No one is asking you to be “white.” Be we are asking you to be American. You are part of this country now, and it has a long and honorable culture and history. No one is asking you to forget your respective cultural traditions, rather we are asking you to find a balance between your past cultural identity and your new one as an American. Part of our culture as Americans is that you can worship as you choose, eat what you choose and live as you see fit. What you may not do, however, is glorify your old identity to the exclusion of your new one as an American.

IMNSHO, anyone who chooses to hyphenate his or her cultural association doesn’t deserve to be here.

If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?

The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?

Sand Pirate
February 21, 2003, 14:55
Yes sir, Vince, I have answered your question. Your question was "What would the Christian thing be to do?". You also asked if I was opening the mail of illegal aliens to discover if they were receiving welfare checks, and I answered that in depth.

My point (over the last 4 posts) has not been that the government steals my money, but that it takes my money and gives it to someone that didn't earn it. I earn it, and I've got the scars to prove it.

Now Vince, you still have not answered questions #2 and #3. What do welfare recipients do to earn that money, and why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 15:17
Originally posted by vmtz

So answer me this, if it does not fall within your profit margins or if people can't pay, they should not be treated to medical care? What do you think Jesus would say?

Vince

Jesus dealt with this exact issue.

Matthew 15:22-28
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me.
But He answered and said, It is not meant to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. "

While He did end up helping her, it was because He made an exception for her because of her faith.

Just because God has chosen to bless one country more than another (in this passage it was Israel, and in our situation it is the US), does not necessarily mean that it is the blessed country’s job to give to those who would steal from them.

vmtz
February 21, 2003, 16:04
Originally posted by limeyinaz


The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear.

Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?

Limeyinaz and Slash-5,

Boy, Limey, you just can't have a discussion without having a fight. Have you met Dougjones?

The point is that we as Americans are free to be who we want and free to have our own culture. Regarding American culture Which shall it be? Shall we look to our Germanic roots, our Indain roots, our English roots, our Nordic roots, our French roots, our African roots, our Mexican roots, our Jewish roots???? Which one controls? Or is it that the idea, that makes America work, is that we are free? See it is really hard to make blanket statments about who we are. And does someone's world view have to match your's to be right or does it deserve just as much respect?

azski,

Lots of fancy stuff out of the bible, but is there not a passage where Jesus says something to the effect if they take your shoes offer them your cloak?

While He did end up helping her, it was because He made an exception for her because of her faith.

Just because God has chosen to bless one country more than another (in this passage it was Israel, and in our situation it is the US), does not necessarily mean that it is the blessed country’s job to give to those who would steal from them.

So if you do not have faith you do not deserve help? What of the man who is a great Christian in acts, but he has never heard of Jesus? Is he damned?

Sand Pirate,

Reread my post to you I answered your first and second questions. You are correct I did not answer #3. So what about following orders.....????

Vince

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 16:49
Originally posted by vmtz
So if you do not have faith you do not deserve help? What of the man who is a great Christian in acts, but he has never heard of Jesus? Is he damned?
Vince

You need to interpret this passage for yourself. Remember, you brought Jesus into this, I merely pointed out what He did in the EXACT same situation.

With regard to salvation, it is not granted for works, but for faith.
To whit:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Eph 2:8-9

Really, I did not mean to hijack the thread with this…Vince, if you want to discuss this in depth, we may want to start a new thread.

With regard to the passage (Matt. 5:40) where we are told to “give him your cloak also.” This is referring to individual acceptable modes of behavior.

This is much different than the way a society is to behave as a whole. For this reason, I would help an illegal alien I found dying of thirst in the desert, but socially I would not support legislation designed to help those who are here illegally. I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?

Another example of the difference between acceptable personal behavior and acceptable societal behavior:
Capital punishment. It is not my right or responsibility to act as a vigilante and hunt down a criminal and kill him. That would be inappropriate. However, if I were on a jury that was trying a capital case, I would vote for the death penalty if I thought he/she deserved it. In being on a jury, I have accepted the legal, moral and ethical responsibility of making that decision.

Back to illegal aliens. I think we have been too permissive as a society with illegal aliens. I think they should be rounded up and sent back to their own country. But, with that being said, I think it should be done in a lawful fashion (by society as a whole) and not left up to the individual.

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 17:02
Also, with regard to “give him your cloak also.” If you read this passage it is referring to a situation where a person has been sued and lost the court case. Obviously, they were wrong to begin with. The idea behind giving them more than they asked for in the lawsuit was 1) because it never should have gotten to a lawsuit in the first place 2) the person giving the cloak was wrong (presumably owed some debt) and 3) the plaintiff now has court costs above and beyond the original debt. The extra payment was to cover these costs. Please don’t try to take scripture out of context to serve your own agenda with regard to the immigration policy here in the US. The simple fact is this: If an illegal alien chooses to go to an emergency room and accepts medical aid with no intention of paying, then they are a thief. Period. If you want to bring religion into this what about “Thou shalt not steal?” It doesn’t get any more straight forward than that.
With regard to illegal aliens:
1) This is not their country.
2) They have not paid for or earned any sort of aid from our government or social programs
3) They should be trying to fix their own country or trying to legally enter ours.
4) They have no “right” to medical aid, money, work or anything else.

End of story.

Sand Pirate
February 21, 2003, 17:25
Yes, I see it clearly now. My defense of "But I earned it with blood, sweat, tears, and hard work..." to your charge of receiving stolen government goods is morally the same as shoveling people into ovens and claiming you were following orders. And it also somehow answers the question "What do welfare recipients do to earn my money?".

Vince, you have a good heart, sir. God bless you brother, I salute you for that. And that's honest, no sarcasm.

vmtz
February 21, 2003, 17:28
slash-5,

So basically what you are saying is that so long as you are a good person your society does not have to be good or you do not have to support a good or moral society? I seem to recall a speech given by a German that went something to the tune of "I didn't speak up for them because I was not one of them...but when they came for me there was no one left to speak up..."

Now you do a very good job of quoting the bible and explaining how you would be moral, but your last sentence say more of what you really seem to feel.
With regard to illegal aliens:
...

They have no “right” to medical aid, money, work or anything else.

Last I checked "they" were still human. Is there not a story about the good samaritian (SP)?

Vince

vmtz
February 21, 2003, 17:29
Originally posted by Sand Pirate
Vince, you have a good heart, sir. God bless you brother, I salute you for that. And that's honest, no sarcasm.

Thank you for the very kind words.

Vince

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 18:01
Originally posted by vmtz
slash-5,

So basically what you are saying is that so long as you are a good person your society does not have to be good or you do not have to support a good or moral society? I seem to recall a speech given by a German that went something to the tune of "I didn't speak up for them because I was not one of them...but when they came for me there was no one left to speak up..."

Now you do a very good job of quoting the bible and explaining how you would be moral, but your last sentence say more of what you really seem to feel.


Last I checked "they" were still human. Is there not a story about the good samaritian (SP)?

Vince

No, I am saying that personal responsibility and societal responsibility are two different things. They each have different levels of responsibility and separate parameters of behavior. I am a strong proponent of a moral and just society as you well know from my last several posts. Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?

How is my argument for a just society (were each receives their just desserts), immoral?

I am sorry, but I don’t see why there should be a parallel between my views and those of the Minister who spoke about Nazi Germany in the above quote.

What is there to stand up for with this case? Illegal entry into a sovereign nation, theft, embezzlement, etc. These are all acts committed by those who would defraud our healthcare system.

Why do you champion this cause? Do you approve of this behavior? How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?

I am willing to bet you would be pretty upset about it, and even more so if I were to say “Hey, what are you upset for, neighbor? Come on, What Would Jesus Do?”

I think you mean well, but are a bit misguided.

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 18:05
Oh, and I never said they weren't human.

Yes, there is a story about the Good Samaritan. The victim was mugged and his possessions stolen. The difference between you and me can clearly be illustrated by this story (thank you for bringing it up): I believe we should help the victim, you believe we should help the muggers.

Maybe you should give the Biblical illustrations a break…they don’t seem to be helping you much. You are obviously out of your depth here.

No offense, but you seem to be unable to grasp even the most rudimentary principles from said tome.

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 18:18
Vince,

Please remember that as honorable men we are called to be merciful. But, this mercy is not to be at the expense of our justness. It is not just to steal, it is not just to approve of those who do. It is not just to lie, it is not just to approve of those who do. It is not just to break into someone else’s house, car, garage or even country, it is not just to approve those that do these things.

Robert

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 18:29
On a side note: there are those who propose that hyphenated descriptors are a good thing. Let met put this into perspective. This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this? When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves? They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?

vmtz
February 21, 2003, 18:39
Robert,

You are doing a great job of defending yourself, but what you and I are talking about is medical care and the poor. Is caring for the sick giving to thiefs? Are the sick really stealing if they cannot afford to pay for medical care and are poor? Or do we have a duty as people/humans to help those who are less fortunate then us? What about a sick orphin with no money and a sick illegal alien with no money are they stealing because they need medical help? Or is money more important?

Vince

Treborer
February 21, 2003, 22:10
A Mexican is not an American. It's an issue of nationality.

Americans are people from many different Nations

After they murdered and ran off the inhabitants, well you know the rest.

The first recorded Europeans to murder and exploit the natives'
were the Spanish, the spanish being a romantic lot bred with the lovely native women, Their children were called Mestizos, Perhaps they should have given them names.

Later English people came and murdered the indians and the Mestizos until they, being a horney bunch, bred with the lovely woman according to their desire.

Later ta Da Ta da ...

Today U.S. citizens have a labor war with the citizens from other countries, who come here for the same reasons anyone else did, of course and take the jobs.
They are able to do this because they will work for less,and all the other noble reasons, also because their bosses save on paying benefits and taxes, perhaps that gives them an advantage?

They have to come Illegally, not their first choice of course.
Often the Criminal Element that helped to smuggle them, asks for a criminal sort of favor, Ta Da Ta Da..:?

The Mexican Government ( which are a mix of Spanish, French, Mestizo etc.) is not as generous to its citizens as the US is to its.

For my part I don't discriminate based on race, creed or color, but
when a group of people whom all live together in a region of my city, routinely steal, stab,rape, slash tires, and lift any thing not attached to a Rotweiller, Fxxk up my liberty and my goods, it is my duty to defend myself against all enemies foriegn and domestic.

I'm sorry the US does not have a decent legal immigration policy, I have spoken with political leaders and written to them on this issue, I have attempted to get some of these workers legal status.
I have family members one generation out from Mexico,

But, to quote a line from the film The Mountain Men,"Hold on to your Young Men, I'll Lift their Hair" !!

Do unto others as you'd have them.......:cool:

Former New Mexican,

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 23:26
Originally posted by vmtz
Robert,

You are doing a great job of defending yourself, but what you and I are talking about is medical care and the poor. Is caring for the sick giving to thiefs? Are the sick really stealing if they cannot afford to pay for medical care and are poor? Or do we have a duty as people/humans to help those who are less fortunate then us? What about a sick orphin with no money and a sick illegal alien with no money are they stealing because they need medical help? Or is money more important?

Vince

I didn’t realize I needed to defend myself. I think what you mean to say is that my arguments make sense. Well, I agree with you on that.

I notice the argument keeps shifting every time I score a point. That’s OK, but it gets a little tiring after a while.

We are not talking about medical care and the poor, we are talking about illegal aliens and how some of them take advantage of our country’s generosity. I have made the assertion that they are not entitled to this generosity, and you have made several arguments of dubious merit, ostensibly in support of illegal immigration and the thievery of medical care and supplies.

In answer to your most recent question (I cannot help but notice that you have answered none of mine, nor have you addressed any issue I have raised…)--No it is not necessarily “giving to thieves” to care for the sick. However, if the person you care for has entered this country illegally, and then proceeded to leech off its residents, then it is not morally justified.

If you will allow me, I’d like to draw a parallel. I do not like Janet Reno. However, I am not morally justified in assassinating her. I am morally justified in starting a grass roots political effort to have her removed from office. One method is legal and moral, the other is not. In similar fashion, it is not moral for illegal aliens to use our country’s medical care without ever paying for it. It would be moral however, for them to make payments on that service or maybe stay in their own country and try to improve things politically. Just because someone wants something, it does not justify him or her taking it. They are thieves (not theifs), and they should be deported. If they do not like their country, they should make every effort to improve it or apply legally for citizen status here.

I will not rise to the bait you have not-so-cleverly-laid for me at the end of your statement except to say this: as you well know, I do not think that money is more important than humans, but I do think that principles are worth dying for.

In short, I was hoping for a healthy discussion here. Instead all I have received is liberal slogans and half-hearted attempts at misdirection. Really, I expected better from you. Oh, well.

slash-5
February 21, 2003, 23:49
By the way, I’d like to point out that we are not talking about whether it is right to GIVE anybody anything. We are talking about whether is morally acceptable for someone to TAKE something, just because they want it.

If someone is moved to perform an act of generosity toward another human being that is a noble and PERSONAL decision. However, if one group of people STEAL from another (without repayment), that is an immoral action.

Yes, I understand that most illegal aliens are poor. I truly have compassion for them. Even so, I still cannot condone immoral acts. Would you let some scumbag rape your wife simply because he wanted to? No, you say? But he hasn’t had sex in years. And he really, really wants to. And your wife is so much prettier than his.

An illegal alien stealing medical benefits is like a man who breaks into your house simply because he wants your wife. These immoral actions are not justified in either case.

It doesn’t matter how poor Mexico is. It doesn’t matter how much illegal immigrants want what we have. It doesn’t matter how poor or pitiful or whatever they are, it is immoral for them to steal.

Lets bring this a little closer to home. If I was in their place, and I had to steal to provide for my family, I would repay those that I was forced to steal from every last cent plus interest. It would be my first priority, period. I would eat rice and beans for years just to pay him back, and I would thank him and God for the opportunity.

Look this all boils down to jealousy. Illegal aliens and those like them resent that America has so much. They think that because we do, they can take from us and its OK. Well its not, and it never will be.

I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but NEWSFLASH: nobody owes you anything. Period. You will prosper based on your abilities and efforts and nothing else.

I think more Mexicans should stay in Mexico and reform the current government.

Captain Obvious

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 00:55
I used to be a big proponent of the “illegal aliens do work that Americans will not, and we actually exploit them” theory. Well, after taking a masters-level economics class, I changed my mind. Let me break it down for you:

Here is what would happen if all illegal aliens were magically deported tomorrow. The fruit and the produce farmers would no longer have a cheap labor supply. The farmers would then hire some spoiled American high school kids to pick it for them and they would demand to be paid about $20.00 per hour. Soon, we would be paying about $1 an orange. This would create a rise in the demand curve. A rise in demand would attract investors who would invest in produce production in other countries where labor was cheaper like Mexico or Central America. (This is probably where produce should be grown anyway.)

This investment in the produce industry overseas would cause an equilibrium effect on the inflated produce costs here in the US and would result in the US farmers going out of business. (This is a good thing, follow me here.) All of the land formerly used for farming would then sell for pennies on the dollar, causing a slump in real estate prices. As the prices plummet in the US, this would allow those of lower income to purchase land and build homes where they never could before.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch (in Belize), all of a sudden, there is a surge in produce production, a corresponding rise in job opportunities and the Gross National Product of the country would triple overnight. This raises the standard of living for the entire country because the government can now use the revenue derived from taxes to pave roads, increase health care benefits, and improve schooling.

Now, everyone is educated AND working. This cycle continues until all of the Americas are developed countries, then we start on Africa!

See guys, when you hire an illegal aliens, you impoverish half of the world. Stop it!
:rofl:

Captain Obvious

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 07:32
Captain Obvious,

I like you self given name.

But you have not give thought to a few things. The problem you fail to notice is that there would be a loss in the balance of trade, in other words in stead of them paying, we are paying and that would affect or GNP for the worse. May states and counties would lose parts of their tax base affecting things like schools, roads and the like. Of course it might be like when the car manufacturing moved over seas. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the mess, like bad ecomony and loss of jobs at the time. I think most would agree that it is best to keep the jobs here in this country. Export not import.

Now back to illegals stealing basic needs. A small story here. I met a Calafornia appeals court judge and we were talking about the farm labor problem and the like and he was sayin that it was hard for him to agree with the big land owners not wanting to raise wages when they flew in on jets but would cry about having to provie port-a-potties for the workers in the feilds.

And who is stealing from who, when the person you work for does not pay you enough so you can pay for health care? I know of people who are hurt on the job and are afraid to report it because they will lose their job and then can't support their family.

It is very easy to be noble and say what you would do if you were poor. Experience tells me other wise, you maybe the one saint among us, but I doubt it. It is sort of like when Paul, in the movie "All Quiet on the Western Front," comes home on leave and he goes to a bar with his father. His father's friends pull out maps and tell him what they would do to break through. But Paul knows they have never been there and never will be, so how could they understand. This a shown in your posts,especially, with you money over humans arguments. You are trying to show what a nice moral guy you are, but don't forget money does not provide the same warmth that a person does and I really doubt you have ever been there.

Limey,

Any chance you will explain why you think I am a racist?

Vince

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 07:55
Ahhh, a free economy. See here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2789629.stm) So Captin what were you saying about stealing again?

Vince

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 13:55
Originally posted by vmtz
Captain Obvious,
But Paul knows they have never been there and never will be, so how could they understand. This a shown in your posts, especially, with you money over humans arguments. You are trying to show what a nice moral guy you are, but don't forget money does not provide the same warmth that a person does and I really doubt you have ever been there.
Vince

Vince, I really wish you hadn’t gone there…but since you did…

I was raised in a very poor home. We did not have electrical heat, we did not have a television. We had a small wood stove that my father and I would try to keep filled through the winter with wood we could scrounge from the woods behind our house. We frequently wouldn’t have more than one meal in the house at any time, and I never had more than one pair of pants even through high school. Our house was so old, one winter the back wall fell off and we only had plastic sheeting sheltering us from sub-zero temperatures in Minnesota. I remember, that year it was uncommon for our house to be above freezing in the winter. Consequently, a lot of the time we did not have running water. I remember my father used to have to put folded up newspaper in the bottom of his shoes because the soles were worn through. I remember using bread bags on my feet because the boots I had were so full of holes, the snow would get in and melt, freezing my toes.

My family moved to Arizona when I was 11. I was kicked out of my house when I was 17 (manic depressive mother) and basically lived on the street a short time until I could find employment. After I was kicked out of the house, my parents experienced a windfall of money and became millionaires. They did not share however, and because of the Clinton policies regarding Student Aid, I was not able even able to qualify for financial assistance. I worked as a common laborer for years at $3.33 an hour until such time as I could save enough to go back to college.

I have dug ditches, swept up construction sites, and done every nasty job you could think of. But, I never stole from anyone.

I remember living on one bag of potatoes a month during this period, and wishing I had enough money for butter. My diet was so bad during this period, I developed an inflammation of my stomach lining. When I went to the doctor, he said, “You have to eat, or this will just get worse.” I dropped to 133 pounds. (I have always been big, so this was a huge drop in weight.) I eventually saved enough, and when I was over 24 years old (so I qualified for student loans), I leveraged myself to the max and put myself through college and now grad school.

I have gone to school full time for the last seven years. During that time, I have averaged 57 hours a week of hard work (mostly construction). My health has suffered greatly. I have severe chronic insomnia from the stress and as a result, my memory has deteriorated rapidly. I have gone to specialists, and it turns out that I have suffered an unknown amount of brain damage as a result of going for over 4 years with only 2 or so hours of sleep a night.

Still, I do not blame others for my situation. I have NEVER had to go on welfare. I HAVE used emergency room services when I couldn’t pay (I was in an accident and did not have medical insurance) but I made payment arrangements with them, dropped out of school, worked two jobs and paid them back with interest.

I am a survivor. I am self-sufficient. I am honorable.

You are not.


A word of advice:
You have a choice. Either you can feel sorry for yourself, or you can keep your mouth shut, work hard and thank God for what you have. I suggest the latter.

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 14:10
I would like to add, I am an example of the American dream. I came from nothing. I was (literally) dirt poor. I have worked hard doing the same type of jobs that the illegal aliens do, and I saved my money. I have put MYSELF through college and grad school (I graduate in May, ) and I now have a corporate job for a major telecommunications company.

If I can do this, anyone can.

I have also made travel a priority as well as education. I have traveled to Papua New Guinea, Australia, France, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico (countless times), Costa Rica, throughout the US, Canada, Kenya, Zambia, etc.

Living in this great country, with is limitless opportunity has afforded me this opportunity.

I have not forgotten where I came from however, last year I contributed $6K to charity and most of that was to the poor. My table is always open to whoever needs a meal, and I frequently give away clothes (not the ratty old ones, I just gave away a brand new suit to someone who needed it to apply for a minimum wage job.)

Vince,

I am not a saint, but I am not a hypocrite. I practice what I preach and I only preach what I live.

Clearly, you have lost this argument. You are obviously incapable of critical thinking and are hindered by your prejudices. Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?

By the way, you are starting to come across as a racist. I am sure you aren’t one, but I would be careful of the things you say lest others get the wrong impression about you.

Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 14:24
Also,

But you have not give thought to a few things. The problem you fail to notice is that there would be a loss in the balance of trade, in other words in stead of them paying, we are paying and that would affect or GNP for the worse. May states and counties would lose parts of their tax base affecting things like schools, roads and the like. Of course it might be like when the car manufacturing moved over seas. I don't know if you are old enough to remember the mess, like bad ecomony and loss of jobs at the time. I think most would agree that it is best to keep the jobs here in this country. Export not import.

Once again, you are out of your league here. That’s OK but, it is a bit wearisome to constantly be explaining things to someone so woefully ignorant. Your spelling and grammar alone are enough to make a schoolmarm cry.

I think I am done trying to teach you. If you are incapable of this level of objective thought, maybe you shouldn’t try to play with the big boys.

I really am not trying to be offensive here, but every once in a while someone like you needs a little spanking to set them straight. The funny part is this: you still haven’t realized you’ve been spanked yet. :rofl:

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 14:29
Originally posted by vmtz
Ahhh, a free economy. See here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2789629.stm) So Captin what were you saying about stealing again?

Vince

This stealing is deplorable. So is the stealing done by some of the illegal aliens in this country. One does not justify the other.

I am surprised that you allude to a correlation between these two events, when there obviously isn’t one.

An interesting way to dig yourself deeper though, keep it up. This is highly entertaining.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 15:53
Captain,

Boy for someone who is so sure if his point you sure post a lot in your defense.

If your story is true, my hat is off to you. But minimum wage was $3.35 in the late eighties and "you have traveled to Papua New Guinea, Australia, France, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico (countless times), Costa Rica, throughout the US, Canada, Kenya, Zambia, etc." Assuming you did this, that is a lot of money. I know my last few trips to Europe cost about $4500.00 each time with airfare. It might have been better spent on food and school.

I also went to school under Clinton, BTW thank Regan for the student aid cut backs, and I had no trouble getting aid. Now, how old does one have to be before one's parents can't claim them for taxes and have that effect student aid? I am thinking, if I remember correctly, it is 21 or 22 years old.

A few small things where your story has problems.

So want to discuss how I am a racist for saying people come before money?

Finally, if you really worked as you did, then you should understand the exploitation that the uneducated and poor face on a daily basis.

Vince

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 15:55
Oh and I grew up very rich and walked away from it all to be a janator. It is kinda a Budda thing.

Vince

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 16:59
Originally posted by vmtz
Captain,

Boy for someone who is so sure if his point you sure post a lot in your defense.

If your story is true, my hat is off to you. But minimum wage was $3.35 in the late eighties and "you have traveled to Papua New Guinea, Australia, France, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico (countless times), Costa Rica, throughout the US, Canada, Kenya, Zambia, etc." Assuming you did this, that is a lot of money. I know my last few trips to Europe cost about $4500.00 each time with airfare. It might have been better spent on food and school.

I also went to school under Clinton, BTW thank Regan for the student aid cut backs, and I had no trouble getting aid. Now, how old does one have to be before one's parents can't claim them for taxes and have that effect student aid? I am thinking, if I remember correctly, it is 21 or 22 years old.

A few small things where your story has problems.

So want to discuss how I am a racist for saying people come before money?

Finally, if you really worked as you did, then you should understand the exploitation that the uneducated and poor face on a daily basis.

Vince

I made $3.35 when I was kicked out of my house in 1990. I was 17 then. I am 30 now. I have always traveled on a budget, staying with friends and at low priced hotels like youth hostels and the like. My last trip to Costa Rica cost me just over $1500 for my wife and I for a week. You can do it if you learn to budget and save. Kenya, Zambia, PNG and Australia were with a relief agency like Peace Core, so I raised money for that by working for people in my church and other odd jobs. The tickets were purchased en masse by a non-profit organization, so they were at a discount. BTW, when I was in PNG, we started construction on a hospital, and when I was in Kenya we built a school. Many of the times I went to Mexico it was to do the same type of things. I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?

I wonder if you had no trouble with financial aid because you claimed minority status? When I first started, I did not and was not awarded anything. I got tired of black and Hispanic students getting more than me, so when I went back I thought I’d try it and see what happened. I claimed that I was Hispanic, which I am. My ancestors on my natural father’s side came from Spain (no detour through Mexico.) Since by that time, my parents were wealthy, it didn’t help at all.

By the way. The US government takes into account your parents income until you are 24. Bush may have changed this recently, but I am not sure.

I see now that you are implying that I am a liar. I do not take that lightly. You have done nothing in this thread except to whine, malign, attack and criticize. I have been honest, truthful and upfront with you. I have tried to resist making overt personal attacks.

None of this has changed the fact that you are wrong, you cannot defend your beliefs and you have a very bad attitude.

You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself.

How dare you question my integrity?

When I asked about issues and concepts, you countered with your weak “Oh, they are so poor…you don’t know what it’s like” argument.

When I shared a bit of my life experience to show you that I DO understand, you imply that I am a liar.

That’s fine. You have showed this entire board the measure of your worth.

Scumbag.

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 17:13
Originally posted by vmtz
Oh and I grew up very rich and walked away from it all to be a janator. It is kinda a Budda thing.

Vince

You say you went to school and now you work as a janitor?

Please explain.

Why would you waste an education like that? If you really did this (and you are not joking), you are a bigger fool than I thought. Where did you go to school exactly? When I attended college, I learned to spell simple words like janitor.

Oh, and I LOVE your signature line.

“"But so long as my critics just devote their energies to personal attacks instead of addressing anything I post, I'll rest assured that my arguments are sound."
New Orleans Drifter”

What a hypocrite. This is exactly what you do.

You have never answered any of my questions. You have attacked me, sand pirate, limey, and others. Obviously you are working with a sub par capacity for debate. Realizing this, you lash out with unfounded personal attacks. Very convincing, Einstein.

You truly are a piece of work.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 18:48
Captain,

Do all your posts travel in threes?

I have not maligned you, I simply said your story seems improbable.

Now you are calling me names and a racists to boot. Still you have not answered my question: How is it being a racist when I all I have said was put people before money. Maybe I am being a moneyist...

Getting back to stealing, care to discuss how the capitalist system steals from the poor?

Also, while we are on the subject, lets talk about you being a party to theft. You said you could not get student aid because your parents were making too much money and claiming you as a dependent. Did I get that right? So if your parents were not supporting you at the time, then they lied to the government and you allowed that lie to occur. Or they were supporting you and you lied to us. I bet the latter rather then the former.

So does taking tax credits for dependents that are not really dependents consitute stealing? Can you spel F-E-L-O-N-Y, but wait stealing is also one of the big ten. I guess I will save someone else a seat in hell.

Now, care to talk about those tax free tickets you bought for your vacation?

Maybe you can help me with more bible cites, were is the one about taking the board from your eye before commenting about the splinter in mine? And wasn't there one about giving to Ceasar what is Ceasr's....

As for my education, I like the simple life. I am a janitor because I like cleaning up people's messes.

Vince

P.S. An education is never wasted, just like a good deed.

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 18:55
Originally posted by vmtz
Captain,

Do all your posts travel in threes?

I have not maligned you, I simply said your story seems improbable.

Now you are calling me names and a racists to boot. Still you have not answered my question: How is it being a racist when I all I have said was put people before money. Maybe I am being a moneyist...

Getting back to stealing, care to discuss how the capitalist system steals from the poor?

Also, while we are on the subject, lets talk about you being a party to theft. You said you could not get student aid because your parents were making too much money and claiming you as a dependent. Did I get that right? So if your parents were not supporting you at the time, then they lied to the government and you allowed that lie to occur. Or they were supporting you and you lied to us. I bet the latter rather then the former.

So does taking tax credits for dependents that are not really dependents consitute stealing? Can you spel F-E-L-O-N-Y, but wait stealing is also one of the big ten. I guess I will save someone else a seat in hell.

Now, care to talk about those tax free tickets you bought for your vacation?

Maybe you can help me with more bible cites, were is the one about taking the board from your eye before commenting about the splinter in mine? And wasn't there one about giving to Ceasar what is Ceasr's....

As for my education, I like the simple life. I am a janitor because I like cleaning up people's messes.

Vince

P.S. An education is never wasted, just like a good deed.

Ok, freak boy. Here is your answer.

My parents stopped claiming me as a dependant when they kicked me out of the house. I even went so far as to get a letter from their attorney stating as much. Even with this, (because of the changes to the student aid laws), the government still takes into account the parents income until the student is 24. Raw deal.

About those tickets. They were purchased by TMI, a non profit organization that I went overseas with as a volunteer relief worker.

No thievery in either case. Please don’t save a spot in hell for me, you won’t need it. Once again, I have shown you that I live what I preach.

Oh, and BTW…Yes, you education was wasted on you…you cannot even spell janitor correctly.

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 18:57
I noticed you called me a liar again, very nice.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:01
Captian,

Nice pictures. All I can say is I am impressed. So you were born in 1972 and went to all those places in the mid to late eighties. Wow you would have been a minor. Anyone tell your parents it is illegal to force minors to work more then part time or as I suggested they payed for it. Hummmm, poverty???

Regarding all those macho PI and fancy training, so what? If you are implying something remember doing that sort of thing across state lines puts it in the Federal Court system. I would suggest you leave this little janitor alone and our only conversations are on this board.


Vince

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:06
Originally posted by slash-5


Ok, freak boy. Here is your answer.

My parents stopped claiming me as a dependant when they kicked me out of the house. I even went so far as to get a letter from their attorney stating as much. Even with this, (because of the changes to the student aid laws), the government still takes into account the parents income until the student is 24. Raw deal.

About those tickets. They were purchased by TMI, a non profit organization that I went overseas with as a volunteer relief worker.

No thievery in either case. Please don’t save a spot in hell for me, you won’t need it. Once again, I have shown you that I live what I preach.

Oh, and BTW…Yes, you education was wasted on you…you cannot even spell janitor correctly.

Having to call people names really takes away from you argument.

As to student aid, that is not how it worked when I went to school. I would get my money back from the person who advised you they did not know what they were talking about.

Also if you really wanted to go to college heard the word loan?

Vince

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 19:23
I have a lot more pictures from later years, I simply started with the first ones.

I merely mentioned the other claims I have made on this board because I figured you would call me a liar for those statements sooner or later.

As far as the loan goes, I tried to get them, but I couldn’t qualify. No matter how many times you ask about this, my story is still going to be the same.

I am done playing games with a half-wit. I can see that you have no genuine interest in intelligent discussion or in helping others.

I have proved my case to the board: I am honorable, you are not.


OUT.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:25
Hey look everyone, I also am posting in threes.

By the way Captian,

How smart is it to post your picture and were you have lived, remember the tax forms, so much for us not knowing who you are? Also makes it easier for one to find you if decied to bother me. For your lack of common sense you demoted to seaman.

Vince

P.S. You do take a cute picture.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:29
Sea...,

Couldn't qualify for the federal student loans that are avaliable to everyone? Don't just ask for your money back SUE you advisor.

So you are allowing yourself to be beaten by a half-wit. A real man never gives up of course a real man does not brag or lie.

What did god say about being humble?

Vince

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 19:34
Originally posted by vmtz
Hey look everyone, I also am posting in threes.

By the way Captian,

How smart is it to post your picture and were you have lived, remember the tax forms, so much for us not knowing who you are? Also makes it easier for one to find you if decied to bother me. For your lack of common sense you demoted to seaman.

Vince

P.S. You do take a cute picture.

I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?

I haven't lived at those addresses in over ten years.

Why would I bother you? I have no interest in you. I have never said otherwise.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but I think you may be over estimating your importance in the whole scheme of things.

Lack of common sense? Boy that is rich coming from you.

If you hadn't noticed, I have nothing to hide.

slash-5
February 22, 2003, 19:43
Now that you have seen my credentials, I deleted those posts for two reasons, first you seem to be slowly working yourself up to a threat, and second, it doesn’t make sense to tie up serious bandwidth on this board now that I’ve proven my point.

Vince,
I am done here. Please go play in someone else’s sandbox and quit peeing in mine.

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:46
Sea...,

Riddle me this, grantor/grantee index.

So shall we get back to the subject at hand.

Money over people?

I was saying that people should come before money. After all, if you don't have humanity what do you have?

Vince

vmtz
February 22, 2003, 19:56
Originally posted by slash-5
Now that you have seen my credentials, I deleted those posts for two reasons, first you seem to be slowly working yourself up to a threat, and second, it doesn’t make sense to tie up serious bandwidth on this board now that I’ve proven my point.

Vince,
I am done here. Please go play in someone else’s sandbox and quit peeing in mine.

Ahhh, other then dealing with you on this board I could careless to meet you. I also have enough sense never to make a threat, but it did seem funny that you would have to post such macho pictures in a discussion of people over money. Specially, when we disagreed.

Oh forgot what does "save as" mean?

Since you quit any chance telling me what you thought of the socratic method?

Vince

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 20:32
Originally posted by vmtz
slash-5,

I see your back. So shall we talk about all those trips you took while you were a minor and as you clamed we so dirt poor. Seems to me some one is calling the kettle black...

Don't worry if you can't remember what I am talking about, I saved the entire thread.

Vince

Vince,

You are one of those poor individuals who is so slow they don’t know when they have been bested. You showed yourself to be a dimwitted fool on another post, now you are starting over on this one?

All joking aside, you implied I was a liar. I provided proof of my statements, and made you look bad on this board.

You can’t handle that.

BTW, in answer to your question, you never did use the Socratic method. All you did was ask questions. Asking questions over and over that may or may not have bearing on the issue at hand, does not constitute the Socratic method. I have actually been taught the Socratic method in one or more of my Philosophy classes, and I have had the occasion to use it. Of course when you “choose to walk away from your riches because it is a Budda thing,” and clean toilets for a living, you may not have much experience.

Let me help you here (remember, education is never wasted), the Socratic method is defined thus: “The particular communication strategies also unfold in a sequential manner that utilizes four steps. One of the participants initiates the discussion by phrasing one or more questions. Among the points considered here will be the defining of appropriate terms. This is followed by the presentation of a response that sets forth hypothesis which are developed through demonstration. As soon as these answers are introduced, the third step, comprised of refutation and cross-examination takes place. The final phase hopefully will consist of a modification of the original position held by each participant. The desired end result is shared meaning and enlarged understanding.” (Golden, Berquist, and Colemen, 1983). Of course you probably received all of your training from “Paper Chase.”

On to the other thing you just implied (again) that I was lying about. I’ll put this in real simple terms for you, so go slowly and don’t be afraid to move your lips when you are reading: :rofl:

I traveled to some countries as a minor. I went with a relief organization and was sponsored through my church. Some of the money came from me working odd jobs, and some came from donations. The first trip was to PNG and Australia. I was in PNG, in the bush for about a month. There we began the building of a hospital, we leveled hills by hand, felled trees, and began the foundation. It was a team of about 30. We “debriefed” in Australia for a week on our way back to the states.
The next year I went to France. By this time my father had found a little bit better job and as a bonus, he received stock options. My family put an emphasis on travel (believing it to be educational), so my father cashed those options and bought me a $600 ticket to France. I stayed there for a month with friends of the family.
In ’89 (1 year later), I went to Kenya and Zambia. Same as the first trip, I went with TMI. We built dormitories and other buildings for a school. Once again, I was there for a month and then “debriefed” in Zambia for a week. Same as before, I raised support for this trip.

None of this changes the fact that we were poor when I grew up. Certainly, things got better after we moved to AZ when I was 11, but this still doesn’t change the fact that I know what it is like to be poor (which is what you originally accused me of).

While it may not be the way you or I would have spent $600, it is what my parents decided to do with the money.

Vince, you have shown yourself to be a petty, malicious little man of no consequence. I have answered all of your questions openly and honestly. Still, you post replies, ever digging yourself in deeper. What could you possibly hope to accomplish? I have beaten you fair and square and that fact isn’t going to change no matter how many times you post. In the end, you will still be as miserable as you are now, only you will look a lot worse to the board.

BTW...
Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
:biggrin:

---edited for spelling because I didn't want to look ignorant like Vince!

Treborer
February 25, 2003, 21:24
IIt's a good day to be proud.

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 21:39
Well,

This personal stuff really should be left in DB, but since we are here.

Sadly, you yet have been able to see my point. Try going back and rereading the prior posts. It really is very simple.

As for being beaten, I am not the one putting my life up for the board to see, you are the one who claimed to be mister poverty. The problem is that I doubt you were as poor as you claim. Your story sounds more like a Monty Python skit then reality. Have you ever seen "Live at the Hollywood Bowl?" In fact, you sound like a spoiled child who has been caught in a lie. A prime example is your story about walking to school, holes in your shoes and a sack to cover them. Might have happened in the 1930's, but the mid-seventies? Remember your pasport said you were born in 1972. I suspect that social services would have been to see you and your family.

Another problem is your student loan story. I bet you were too lazy to fill out the forms, went to some "school" that did not offer a real education for which the government would allow student loans or never went so you really just don't know how to get student aid. This would be supported by your PI Id card, for someone who knows about PI you really made some mistakes.

About the only thing that seems credible is being thrown out of your parents house. I say this becasue of your out-bursts in this thread and the one in DB, which I shall read shortly.

Sadly, you have erased many of the most telling posts.

Finally, I never said I cleaned toilets, I said I cleaned up messes people make, try thinking out side the box.

Vince

P.S. Nice job of quoting my DB post to you.

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:06
Nice edit of you once shrot post.

If you re-read you will see that I have, but you must think. Remember that thing between your ears is not just to generate emotion.

Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
1. Where have I said anything racist in this thread?
2. What does a person's relatives have anything to do with your integrity? You do know this is America, we are all equal here?
3. Anger does not prove your point.

Vince

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:10
Originally posted by limeyinaz
Did ya see that? No, it was not a quick slight of hand. But not 1 of 33 questions answered, he truly must be.......a lawyer :rofl:

Cleans up other peoples "messes", bet he gets plenty of business from those illegal aliens, life blood right Vince? As ol' Vince has the same skin color, speaks the language, and thinks it's great thier here, I'll bet he's quite popular as legal rep for the illegal alien community. Probably is revered by them (rightfully of course).

Thats why he likes this illegal immigration game, it's how he makes his living off of American Society. Kind of ironic that the scourge of the Pictures Forum (Ol' Vince was always one to point out "Hey, isn't that a flash hider on your rifle? That's illegal") makes his living off of Illegal activities.

Yes, your motives become clearer all the time.

Well Vince, you wanted to make it about illegal mexican aliens, you got it.

Limeyinaz,

Your reading skills still fail you. I have not said one way or the other what I believe, nor have I said what I do for a job.

And since you are throwing the first stone, care to answer some of the questions I have asked you?

Vince

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:14
Oh Limey, almost forgot. violation of 922 is a felony. I would guess that that could get your green-card pulled and get you sent home.

Vince

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 22:17
Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:20
Originally posted by slash-5


Vince,

You are one of those poor individual who is so slow they don’t know when they have been bested. You showed yourself to be a dimwitted fool on another post, now you are starting over on this one?

All joking aside, you implied I was a liar. I provided proof of my statements, and made you look bad on this board.

You can’t handle that.

BTW, in answer to your question, you never did use the Socratic method. All you did was ask questions. Asking questions over and over that may or may not have bearing on the issue at hand, does not constitute the Socratic method. I have actually been taught the Socratic method in one or more of my Philosophy classes, and I have had the occasion to use it. Of course when you “choose to walk away from your riches because it is a Budda thing,” and clean toilets for a living, you may not have much experience.

Let me help you here (remember, education is never wasted), the Socratic method is defined thus: “The particular communication strategies also unfold in a sequential manner that utilizes four steps. One of the participants initiates the discussion by phrasing one or more questions. Among the points considered here will be the defining of appropriate terms. This is followed by the presentation of a response that sets forth hypothesis which are developed through demonstration. As soon as these answers are introduced, the third step, comprised of refutation and cross-examination takes place. The final phase hopefully will consist of a modification of the original position held by each participant. The desired end result is shared meaning and enlarged understanding.” (Golden, Berquist, and Colemen, 1983). Of course you probably received all of your training from “Paper Chase.”

On to the other thing you just implied (again) that I was lying about. I’ll put this in real simple terms for you, so go slowly and don’t be afraid to move your lips when you are reading: :rofl:

I traveled to some countries as a minor. I went with a relief organization and was sponsored through my church. Some of the money came from me working odd jobs, and some came from donations. The first trip was to PNG and Australia. I was in PNG, in the bush for about a month. There we began the building of a hospital, we leveled hills by hand, felled trees, and began the foundation. It was a team of about 30. We “debriefed” in Australia for a week on our way back to the states.
The next year I went to France. By this time my father had found a little bit better job and as a bonus, he received stock options. My family put an emphasis on travel (believing it to be educational), so my father cashed those options and bought me a $600 ticket to France. I stayed there for a month with friends of the family.
In ’89 (1 year later), I went to Kenya and Zambia. Same as the first trip, I went with TMI. We built dormitories and other buildings for a school. Once again, I was there for a month and then “debriefed” in Zambia for a week. Same as before, I raised support for this trip.

None of this changes the fact that we were poor when I grew up. Certainly, things got better after we moved to AZ when I was 11, but this still doesn’t change the fact that I know what it is like to be poor (which is what you originally accused me of).

While it may not be the way you or I would have spent $600, it is what my parents decided to do with the money.

Vince, you have shown yourself to be a petty, malicious little man of no consequence. I have answered all of your questions openly and honestly. Still, you post replies, ever digging yourself in deeper. What could you possibly hope to accomplish? I have beaten you fair and square and that fact isn’t going to change no matter how many times you post. In the end, you will still be as miserable as you are now, only you will look a lot worse to the board.

BTW...
Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
:biggrin:

Once

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:22
Originally posted by slash-5
Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?

Twice? Any reason you are repeating yourself? I think we all saw it the first time.

Vince

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 22:27
Originally posted by limeyinaz


Yeah, but what will that do for an illegal alien who doesn't have a green card? You haven't been supplying your clients with firearms too have you?

Comitting felonies is a bad thing. Is there a reason you are asking this? Don't tell me you are not allowed to have toyz? You do have a green-card?

It just occured to me, Limey, is the reason you always jump on the illegal bandwagon becasuse they are taking your jobs?

Vince

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 22:31
Originally posted by limeyinaz
Sorry, slash-5 I just added two more questions :bigangel:

Thank you sir.


1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
34) limeyinaz: Yeah, but what will that do for an illegal alien who doesn't have a green card?
35) limeyinaz: You haven't been supplying your clients with firearms too have you?

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 22:39
Originally posted by limeyinaz
Why of course Vince, you have viewed my profile I would assume?

:rofl: :rofl: :bow: :bow:

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 22:41
Oopsy daisy, there was a question there for Vince....

Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
34) limeyinaz: Yeah, but what will that do for an illegal alien who doesn't have a green card?
35) limeyinaz: You haven't been supplying your clients with firearms too have you?
36) limeyinaz: Why of course Vince, you have viewed my profile I would assume?

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 23:19
So are you just going to keep posting the same list over and over? It seems to be a lame tactic.

Seeing all your post you really must be an impotent guy.

Vince

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 23:23
Originally posted by vmtz
So are you just going to keep posting the same list over and over? It seems to be a lame tactic.

Seeing all your post you really must be an impotent guy.

Vince
Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
34) limeyinaz: Yeah, but what will that do for an illegal alien who doesn't have a green card?
35) limeyinaz: You haven't been supplying your clients with firearms too have you?
36) limeyinaz: Why of course Vince, you have viewed my profile I would assume?

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 23:23
Limey,

Arn't you some sort of sanitary engineer?

Vince

vmtz
February 25, 2003, 23:25
Anyone willing to bet that ol' seaman will post that list again?

Vince

slash-5
February 25, 2003, 23:56
Originally posted by vmtz

And only a liar and a theif would accuse someone of stealing when that same person admited to helping his parents commit fraud on the government.

Wanna talk about how poor you were or lets talk about why you rich parents asked you to leave?

Vince

Did you read any of my replies? Moron.

Hey Vince, are YOU an illegal alien?

Don't worry, I'm keeping track of the questions you haven't answered for the list.:biggrin:

Savvy, savvy janitor, this one.

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 00:03
Time for an update::D

I know your "porch light" is set on "dim", but it case you haven't figured this out yet (small chance), I'll keep posting my reply (see below) until you a) quit asking moronic questions or b) answer these. I know, it's hard. A little janitor all by himself, trying to sound out these big words.


Before I answer anymore of your questions, you will have to answer all of these that you haven’t yet:

1) limeyinaz: BTW, what's mornons?
2) limeyinaz: Every time this subject comes up, you play the race card and DABTL makes insightful comments such as : "More Arizona Foolishness", bit I have yet to hear either of you say that this is wrong, it should be stopped, or give some kind of solution to the problem (as you don't agree with stricter border enforcement). Just what is your stance?
3) Sand Pirate: Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day?
4) Sand Pirate: How Christian is it to take one man's money, at the point of a gun, and give it to someone who didn't earn it, Vince?
5) Sand Pirate: Well Vince, your question answers itself. I WORK for the money I receive. What does someone on welfare do to earn that money, breathe?
6) limeyinaz: Your service to this country?
7) azski: Would you give away your items or skills to someone who says they want it but will not pay for it?
8) Sand Pirate: One thing I've noticed here, just identical to the mandatory EEO classes I'm forced to endure every year......the folks that scream the loudest that we should be color-blind are the only folks that constantly insist on knowing what color everyone is. Why is that?
9) Slash-5: Are they Mexicans or Americans?
10) Slash-5: If they are Americans, what is your point?
11) Slash-5: If they are Mexicans, then what are they doing serving in the US military?
12) limeyinaz: The motives for supporting illegal immigration of Mexicans is now becoming clear. Do you also have a brown sheet and pointy head-dress in your closet?
13) azski: So if their own country does not want them back, why is it that the American hospitals have to keep them and give them everything for free???
14) azski: why should they have to work like the rest of us when all they have to do is demand it for free?
15) azski: are you just willfully blind to the truth?
16) Slash-5: When was the last time you heard of a Jew-American?
17) Slash-5: They have a strong sense of culture and History, but none of them would ever dream of calling themselves “Swedish-American.” Why?
18) Slash-5: If Mexico is so great, so worthy of glory, then why are you here?
19) Slash-5: The biggest thing you have to be proud of is the fact that you are American, why would you dilute that and segregate yourself into some category like Mexican/American?
20) Sand Pirate: why are the EEO-civil rights-politically correct cheerleaders always the first to drag race into a discussion?
21) Slash-5: I would perform CPR on an illegal alien involved in a car crash, but at the same time I would call the INS if observed a group of them trying to sneak into our country. Do you see the difference?
22) Slash-5: Please tell me, how is allowing someone to steal moral? Especially when through that act of stealing they force financial hardship on said society?
23) Slash-5: Why do you champion this cause?
24) Slash-5: Do you approve of this behavior?
25) Slash-5: How would you feel if someone broke into your house and helped himself or herself to your stuff?
26) Slash-5: This logic is akin to saying that it is a good thing for people to describe themselves in terms of what they used to be….so instead of being a child, Sally is a zygote-child. Instead of being a manager, I should be called a supervisor-manager. Instead of being a member of the US armed forces, the enlisted should be called civilian-soldiers. Instead of being called Americans, immigrants from Mexico should be called Mexican-American. Do you see the problem with this?
27) Slash-5: When you have a people-group who do not clearly identify themselves with a society as a whole and instead choose to focus on what they once were, their efforts toward assimilation are thwarted. They become a sub-culture of that society and exist on the fringe socially, economically and otherwise. I want the best for our new immigrants, why do they wish less than the best for themselves?
28) Slash-5: They came here to have a better life, I wonder why they refuse to embrace this new life with all of its opportunity?
29) Slash-5: Why don’t you quit digging your hole deeper?
30) Slash-5: Last thought: I have never advocated money over humans. Rather I have been a proponent of principles. Why can’t you grasp this simple concept?
31) Slash-5: I have made the helping of other people a point in my life. Can you say the same?
32) Slash-5: You have portrayed yourself as an ignorant, lowbrow, selfish, criminal coddling, racist, foolish loudmouth who is probably related to illegal immigrants himself. How dare you question my integrity?
33) Slash-5: I don't care if you (or anyone else) knows what I look like—why would I?
34) limeyinaz: Yeah, but what will that do for an illegal alien who doesn't have a green card?
35) limeyinaz: You haven't been supplying your clients with firearms too have you?
36) limeyinaz: Why of course Vince, you have viewed my profile I would assume?
37) Slash-5: Did you read any of my replies?
38) Slash-5: Hey Vince, are YOU an illegal alien?

Capitan Obvious

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 00:10
If anyone has any more questions for Vincy, you can just PM me and I could do one update a day. How does that sound?

(question added to said list)

:biggrin:

PS. Vince if you are bored here, there are oppressed illegals waiting for deliverance in this thread.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66613
All hail Super Illegal Janitor Man. (The super hero of “oppressed” illegals and liberals everywhere. Oh, wait, only if they are Mexican, sorry…)

vmtz
February 26, 2003, 07:43
Originally posted by slash-5


Did you read any of my replies? Moron.

Hey Vince, are YOU an illegal alien?

Don't worry, I'm keeping track of the questions you haven't answered for the list.:biggrin:

Savvy, savvy janitor, this one.

Yes I did, you just need go back and read. The problem you are having is that you refuse to think, it is what I would term a rich kid's malady, you are used to having the answer given to you. See the road to knowledge is long and hard, but it is the path that makes one knowledgable not the answer. Use this thread to begin your journey. Start at post 1 and read the thread.

If I was an illegal alien would it matter?

Vince

vmtz
February 26, 2003, 07:47
Time for an update:

I know your "porch light" is set on "dim", but it case you haven't figured this out yet (small chance), I'll keep posting my reply (see below) until you a) quit asking moronic questions or b) answer these. I know, it's hard. A little janitor all by himself, trying to sound out these big words.

It is going to be a long waste of bandwith, but hey, I am not a quiter.

I know it is tough for me to sound out those big word, but I go my dictionalry, what's your excuse?

Vince

vmtz
February 26, 2003, 07:58
Originally posted by slash-5
If anyone has any more questions for Vincy, you can just PM me and I could do one update a day. How does that sound?

(question added to said list)

:biggrin:

PS. Vince if you are bored here, there are oppressed illegals waiting for deliverance in this thread.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66613
All hail Super Illegal Janitor Man. (The super hero of “oppressed” illegals and liberals everywhere. Oh, wait, only if they are Mexican, sorry…)

Just read it. Try to learn from the Christians and not the white hooded one you seem to be drawn too.

It really is very simple, are people more important then money? Think, what would Jesus say?

Vince

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 10:20
Originally posted by vmtz


Yes I did, you just need go back and read. The problem you are having is that you refuse to think, it is what I would term a rich kid's malady, you are used to having the answer given to you.
Vince

Hmmmmm.

Originally posted by vmtz
Oh and I grew up very rich and walked away from it all to be a janator.
Vince

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 10:36
Originally posted by vmtz
Just read it. Try to learn from the Christians and not the white hooded one you seem to be drawn too. It really is very simple, are people more important then money? Think, what would Jesus say? Vince

Originally posted by vmtz
Yes I did, you just need go back and read. The problem you are having is that you refuse to think, it is what I would term a rich kid's malady, you are used to having the answer given to you. See the road to knowledge is long and hard, but it is the path that makes one knowledgable not the answer. Use this thread to begin your journey. Start at post 1 and read the thread.Vince


Originally posted by slash-5
I will not rise to the bait you have not-so-cleverly-laid for me at the end of your statement except to say this: as you well know, I do not think that money is more important than humans, but I do think that principles are worth dying for.

In short, I was hoping for a healthy discussion here. Instead all I have received is liberal slogans and half-hearted attempts at misdirection. Really, I expected better from you. Oh, well.

Originally posted by slash-5


Jesus dealt with this exact issue.

Matthew 15:22-28
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me.
But He answered and said, It is not meant to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. "

While He did end up helping her, it was because He made an exception for her because of her faith.

Just because God has chosen to bless one country more than another (in this passage it was Israel, and in our situation it is the US), does not necessarily mean that it is the blessed country’s job to give to those who would steal from them.

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 10:39
Originally posted by vmtz
Try to learn from the Christians and not the white hooded one you seem to be drawn too.

Vince

The only racist I seem to be drawn to is you (but that would be a brown hood wouldn't it?)

vmtz
February 26, 2003, 15:49
Seaman,

Care to point out were I am being racist? Somehow putting people before money does not seem like racist.

As for the rest posts two words: Non sequitur.

Vince

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 17:28
1) Non sequitur. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...1. An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence. 2. A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it. Latin non sequitur,...


You brought up “It really is very simple, are people more important then[sic] money? Think, what would Jesus say?” again.

I posted a quote of yours as instructions for you to follow yourself:

Originally posted by vmtz
You just need go back and read. The problem you are having is that you refuse to think, it is what I would term a rich kid's malady, you are used to having the answer given to you. See the road to knowledge is long and hard, but it is the path that makes one knowledgable[sic] not the answer. Use this thread to begin your journey. Start at post 1 and read the thread.”

Then, I posted the two relevant passages that answer your questions:

Originally posted by slash-5
I will not rise to the bait you have not-so-cleverly-laid for me at the end of your statement except to say this: as you well know, I do not think that money is more important than humans, but I do think that principles are worth dying for.

In short, I was hoping for a healthy discussion here. Instead all I have received is liberal slogans and half-hearted attempts at misdirection. Really, I expected better from you. Oh, well.”

And…

Originally posted by slash-5
Jesus dealt with this exact issue.

Matthew 15:22-28
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped Him, saying, Lord, help me.
But He answered and said, It is not meant to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. "

While He did end up helping her, it was because He made an exception for her because of her faith.

Just because God has chosen to bless one country more than another (in this passage it was Israel, and in our situation it is the US), does not necessarily mean that it is the blessed country’s job to give to those who would steal from them.”

I am wondering why this is so hard to follow?

So, in short: No, I don’t think money is more important than people. And Jesus referred to those who would take a blessing intended for others as “dogs.” Jesus called them dogs, not me. Does that answer you question?

The reason you have been labeled a racist by me (and others) is because you tried to turn this discussion into a race issue from the start (when it was about illegal aliens, not Mexicans specifically.) Also, because you insist on awarding charity to a single group of people (illegal aliens of Mexican persuasion) to the exclusion of other groups, namely, citizens and legal immigrants.

Proof:

Originally posted by vmtz
Oh boy. Here we go with the anti-Mexican rant again.

YOU GUYS are mornons.

Vince

Here you singled out Mexicans again:

Originally posted by vmtz
Did you know that Mexicain/Americains have won more Metals of Honor then any other group?

Here you brought up race again, in a very derogatory manner:

Originally posted by vmtz
We are all not white and we all do not want to be white.

slash-5
February 26, 2003, 18:21
Vince,

Let’s square up shall we?

I have been thinking about this. I really don’t think you are a racist in the common sense of the word. I do, however, think that you see the world sharply divided along racial lines. You do seem to give preference to those of your race, and you practice your own form of relative ethics.

That’s fine.

We live in the good old USA, and living here, you have that right.

You and I disagree on some basic fundamental issues. No matter how much you or I post, that fact is not going to change.

Truthfully, I am willing to bet you are a nice enough guy. I’ll bet you work your butt off every day at work. Honestly, if you lived next to me, we’d probably get along. But, the common theme I see in your postings is an undercurrent of barely suppressed hostility toward those who have more than you. This rage is only hurting you, and I think you would do well to let it go. The world isn’t fair, and it never will be.

What has my part been in this? Well, to be honest, I have been more of a jerk than necessary. I have posted in an inflammatory way, and responded to posts I should have just left alone. I am not proud of this.

Obviously you have a religious background, as do I, so as brothers why don’t we just bury this hatchet and let this one go?

Robert

vmtz
February 26, 2003, 18:28
Robert,

It is not a race issue, it is an issue about people and how people should be treated. I would say the same for anyone.

Vince

P.S. Consider the hatchet buried.

TerrySC
March 02, 2003, 17:42
Click on->:cool: (http://www.ranchrescue.com/index.htm)

vmtz
January 12, 2004, 00:13
Originally posted by Sand Pirate
My good friend Vince and I have had this discussion before. Vince knows good and well that a sizeable number of illegals are draining the resources of this country, because I told him so. Ask Vince why the Santa Teresa Post Office in Sunland Park, NM (population next-to-nothing) is larger than most of the substations in El Paso that service much larger areas (and more populated, too). Ask Vince why once every month, the parking lot is filled to overflowing with cars bearing Frontera Chihuahua license plates at that post office. Welfare check day? Nawwwww, couldn't be that. Vince knows about my first-hand accounts, because I told him about them over a year ago.

Do I need to go on and on about arresting illegals with WIC cards? How about illegals with hundreds of dollars of food stamps? How about illegals with fists full of prescription drugs, always filled at the hospital pharmacy (read FREE to the illegal alien)? Should we discuss the thousands of ambulance runs for illegals? How about the thousands upon thousands of births of "brand new citizens" to illegals that will never pay the bill? Police calls to alien on alien violence? What about the $3000 spent for every fire-rescue rollout when some illegal alien hurts himself trying to cross the border illegally?

Should I relate my personal, first-hand experiences about these leeches on American society, gathered over a ten-year period of daily interaction with illegal aliens? Why should I bother? Facts won't make a difference to those with closed minds. They'd rather listen to some egghead pundit from back east that's never seen an alien since he fired that last nanny. Those types of people are SO much more reliable than someone that's been there and done that, got the scars to prove it.

So, wanna face real life? Say the word, and I'll start tellin' stories.......

BTT

Vince

slash-5
January 12, 2004, 00:54
Getting bored Vince?

:biggrin:

762minigun
January 12, 2004, 01:07
I'd say so:whiskey:

vmtz
January 12, 2004, 07:54
Originally posted by 762minigun
I'd say so:whiskey:

Nope. Sand Pirate asked me to find something in another thread, so I "BBT" to make it easy for him.

Vince

slash-5
January 12, 2004, 11:53
Originally posted by vmtz


Nope. Sand Pirate asked me to find something in another thread, so I "BBT" to make it easy for him.

Vince


Whew! I thought my blood pressure was going to go through the roof again!