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View Full Version : Ident/Argentina: Identify my new FN/FAL- Argentine?


enot6g
February 15, 2003, 23:27
Ok, I'm an idiot who doesn't know squat about FN/FAL's so please be gentle.
I have looked in the forums and have pieced together what I think I have but I would like to get some specifics.
Here are the facts;
Upper Receiver (left side) = F.S.L. cal 7.62 x 51 mm (L.S.R. 308 WIN) 00xxx (s/n's match)
Upper Receiver (right side) = F.M.A.P. "DM" -ROSARIO INDUSTRIA ARGENTINA
Lower Receiver (right side) = 00xxx (aligned vertically, next to buttstock, s/n's match)
Carrier = 00xxx (on top, s/n's match)
Bolt = 00xxx (on top, s/n's match)
Barrel = NATIONAL ARMS 00xxx BILLERICA MA (bottom side of barrel, s/n's match)

What do I have? Pre-Ban? Post-Ban? Anything else you can tell me? Or point in the right direction to find out more about my new rifle?

Thanks,
enot6g

wcb
February 15, 2003, 23:48
I will try to help on this Some of the information I have may be wrong though....

From my understanding, there were 2,000 FALs imported pre-ban. These will have matching serial numbers and also the importer stamp will be on the barrel (like yours).

There were somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 FALs which got caught during the ban by the customs department. To offload them to the public, they were atleast broken in half (upper and lower or outright parted out) and sold to different vendors in the US. These have the same serial numbering scheme as the pre-bans but will always have a small importation stamp in the magwell (Lattia, SC).

SLoV
February 15, 2003, 23:55
sounds like an argie pre-ban to me. all matching numbers plus the FMAP reciever.
i'd bet it's a preban argie

nice piece

enot6g
February 16, 2003, 00:03
Thanks for your help.
There are no discernable marks near the magwell. I am assuming by magwell, you mean where the magazine is inserted? There are some small scratches (more like divots) but they definitely don't resemble anything recognizable.
There seem to be two 'hieroglyphics'. One is near the forward part of the ejection port and looks sortof like an upside-down T or a hangman's post. The other is on the lower receiver near the buttstock and resembles a christmas tree.
After re-re-reading the history lesson, I must admit that I am getting paranoid. Should I be worried that this one may have gotten under the radar?

enot6g

wcb
February 16, 2003, 00:47
If you had the importation stamp, it would be a small fairly deep stamp inside the magazine well. The position of this small stamp is 1 inch horizonal and 3/4 inch veritcal looking from the rear of the magazine well (where the bolt hold is).

IMP. BY
SAC
LATTA, SC

What you have is pre-ban and is something you can be proud of. Yours was manufactured on the same tooling as the military versions and is on the highest quality.

BTW, if the serial number just happens to be x01069 email me.

EMDII
February 16, 2003, 08:48
Go HERE in FAQs FORUM (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60277) and slog trough the link entitled "ID". MOST ID questions answered (50 separate threads actually). I'll work on an Argentine-specific search mask.

terral
February 16, 2003, 11:24
just curious as what kind of price you paid for it. i mean if you didnt know if it was a pre-ban did you pay a pre-ban price, or did you get it for a post bans cost? if the latter kudos to ya! :fal:

enot6g
February 16, 2003, 11:54
D. Lehrman/wcb/EMDII (or any "ID" expert out there) - I need your help, specifically, the importation stamp.
First of all, is the 'magazine well' "where the magazine is inserted?" If this is correct, then according to 'wcb' the stamp should be on the inside/front side of the magwell, underneath the barrel, but I don't see anything. Or should this be outside/front side of the magwell underneath the barrel?
Second, what am I looking for? Letters, Symbols????
Third, according to 'wcb' he said 'the importer stamp will be on the barrel (like yours).' Is this correct or did he mean the name of the importer?
Fourth, if I can't find this importer stamp, what should I do? Find a knowledgeable FAL person to help me locate this stamp? Get an attorney? What???

I did find another mark. If I hold the gun upside down, there is a sort of double-stamp (like the punch jumped and came down again when it was hammered) on the outside of the ?magazine well? towards the barrel. More specifically, at the bottom of the chamfer/round-cut on the outside of the ?magazine well? The symbol looks like the number "1" without the bottom horizontal line, with what looks like a four-leaf clover or three-leaf clover attached to the bottom of the number "1".

EMDII-I went to that link & other links, did a search on 'Argentina' 'FMAP' etc., but found only bits and pieces of information and that is why I started this thread. Thanks for your help.

enot6g
February 16, 2003, 12:00
terral - this no reflection on you or anyone but until I get this 'importation stamp' mess straightened out, I don't want to say what the price was. Once this done, I'll tell you where, when, what was said, price, etc?

EMDII
February 16, 2003, 12:24
Izwhy I moved this thread to FAQ. It deepens the gene pool! I'll keep working on a search mask for 'Argentina' in the FAQs. I have to word it carefully to simultaneously capture 'Argie, Argentine, Argentina, et al' when you activate it.

IF it is pre-ban, it most likely won't have an 'in magazine well' stamp IIRC. It should have markings somewhere on the exterior, as the Importer Marking became law in 1968 IIRC w/ the GCA. D. Lehrman and L/FN are the real RKIs on these IMO.

Try a personal search using 'SAC AND Latta' in the search requirement. ANd IF you have a DC, take pics and post (froma host, or contribute and 'attach') ALL the markings, ALL, even those underneath the HGs.

Good luck!

wcb
February 16, 2003, 13:00
Basically maybe I went too indepth on my previous post. You have a pre-ban FAL.

note:
If you just happen to have number 1069 I would like to liberate your pre-ban from you.

Unless someone changed parts out, pre-bans will have matching serial numbers and the importation stamp/marking will be like yours: NATIONAL ARMS 00xxx BILLERICA MA

Post-bans will not have matching numbers (unless someone found an upper half and mated it to a lower half) but will always have the importation stamp/marking IMP. BY SAC LATTA, SC, which will be found inside the magwell.

enot6g
February 16, 2003, 13:32
D. Lehrman - Thanks a ton :bow: for the reassurance, BUT, why would an importer stamp a barrel? I thought that receivers were the parts that were more regulated as compared to the barrels? If, prior to 1994, barrels were more important than receivers than it is just another reason to hate unknowledgeable lawyers.

Okay, in order to put this issue to rest let me ask one last time? Is the stamp on the barrel suffcient enough for me to make a determination that it is not a contraband gun or single import ? I am not asking for legal advice, I just want an informed opinion on this issue. I am old enough to know that two attorneys can have two different opinions and that the one with the most money will usually be correct.

Moving on, looking at the mag well as you described, there are no markings on the inside. In fact, it is so clean that cut marks made by the drill bit stand out perfectly as if hardly a magazine was ever inserted into it. Also, the stamp on the barrel is very clean & neat, not like the four-leaf clover stamp that I described in my last post.

I don't have a digital camera nor any camera for that matter. I'll have to buy a throwaway camera and have them digitized in order to post some pic's. I'll do this before the end of this week since I would like some help on identifying the flash suppressor, etc.

EMDII
February 16, 2003, 13:53
Originally posted by enot6g
D. Lehrman - Thanks a ton :bow: for the reassurance, BUT, why would an importer stamp a barrel? I thought that receivers were the parts that were more regulated as compared to the barrels? If, prior to 1994, barrels were more important than receivers than it is just another reason to hate unknowledgeable lawyers.

Pre-1994 there was NO requiremenet to so-mark the receiver. The GCA caused thousands upon thousands of weapons to get stamps on the barrels.

Your SN is the determinant of the pre-ban status. NOT the barrel. Because barrels can be changed. Ergo, the markings on the receiver indicate, as Dean has indicated, that you have a pre-ban. Absent the rifle IN-HAND, we've told about as much as we know.

Pre-ban Argentines draw a pretty decent price, depending on the local market. My guess is US$ 1300 - US$ 1800 usually, but I haven't checked lately.

raexcct2
May 25, 2003, 14:38
If the Argentine FAL was imported by DS Arms, I am assuming it was a postban and came with a thumbhole stock. Am I correct here?

I came across a matching serial number Argentine FAL like enot6g's but I thought all DS Arms Argentine FALs were postban with thumbhole stock. This one has regular humpback synthetic stock and no US parts.

Before I get castigated here, yes I have done a search on the Argentine FALS here on the FAL FILES but none of the posts mentioned whether rifle came with thumbhole stock or not.

shootist87122
May 25, 2003, 17:54
I looked at a "preban" Argy someone wanted to trade for one of my ARs a few weeks ago. The first thing that jumped out at me was the necked barrel. A quick call to vmtz had me looking inside the magwell and sure enough there was the SAC Lattia stamp. The third tip-off was the L1A1 Lower and bolt (i.e., mis-matched parts).

No cigar (or trade) for that one, but based on the matching numbers on yours, and assuming it has a real FH, threaded barrel and pistol grip, it passes muster. A S/N < 1k is another indication from what Iíve read.

So how much did you pay for it?

V guy
May 25, 2003, 20:40
I hope not to confuse things, but today my buddy brought over his fal. I remember when he bought it locally along with a genuine H&K 91 just before the '94 awb.
It is an "Imp. by SAC Latta, SC" gun. Definitely no other importer logos.
It is a "non matching numbers" Rosario gun. The SAC logo is located on the outer part of the metric upper, just below the .308 marking on the outer left side of the upper, not hidden in the mag well. The impression is quite deep and clear. The balance of the gun is inch parts, including the lower, the bolt and carrier and bbl- all non matching numbers. The upper charging rail is properly cut for the folding inch charging handle, which it has. This upper will NOT accept inch mags- the mag area is definitely metric cut with the half moon machining, but otherwise it is assembled as an inch gun, will all parts on the gun inch, except for the mag well...obviously could have been totally assembled as metric but was not, for lack of parts I guess.
The curious part was that it was definitely purchased prior to the awb in '94 and is configured as assault gun with flashider/bayonet lug. Now I figure since there is paper locally proving the purchase date from the local FFL, that this is another part of the SAC picture. Obviously this was assembled after the '90 law and before the '94 law change. So I believe this is a legal gun or am I somehow wrong?

762minigun
May 25, 2003, 23:02
Originally posted by V guy
I hope not to confuse things, but today my buddy brought over his fal. I remember when he bought it locally along with a genuine H&K 91 just before the '94 awb.

So I believe this is a legal gun or am I somehow wrong?

I found one of these in Indy a while back. It has the same markings the Latta stamp was on the outside of the receiver, and everyone screamed Postban. I did'nt but it at $900.00 maybe I'll sell some blood and aquire it.

Darin A.
January 15, 2007, 13:06
I'm sure it's pre ban as i have the same gun with the import stamp on the barrel.
the gun was bought by a good friend of mine before the 89 ban he paid 769.00 for it he actually wrote it on the shipping box . mine is s# 00033x and i have the box it came with. the gun is all matching numbers and i managed to buy it from him for around the same price he paid for it. it has some finish wear because he says guns are like tools and treats them as such but i will get it refinished with a gun cote in the same color. the gun was fired very little just finish wear so i'm happy with my argentine.

adam762
January 15, 2007, 13:47
Wow.... 4 years later...

Darin A.
January 15, 2007, 13:59
so because i didn't pay attention to the date means you have to be a smart ass?
looking this old thread up was informitive your commit was not

lhofeld
January 15, 2007, 15:04
Actually I had the same thought as Adam, but Darin I xan also tell you that the National Firearms Argies should have a Para rear sight and are very good shooters. My SN is about 20 or so off of yours. BTW if you want it refinished Adams work is about second to none.

adam762
January 15, 2007, 16:40
I suppose I'd rather be a smart ass than a dumb sh*t. With thin skin like that, though, you won't do too well around here.

It is fairly normal for folks to overlook the date on a post and reply to it. Shoot, some guys used to ressurect old threads on purpose to yank folks chains... the old Tapco G1 kit thread was the best. It's just this thread might be the longest dormant one I've seen brought back. Yeah, so you got the booby prize... big freakin' deal. We've all done it.

Whatever. Welcome to the files, I guess...:rolleyes:

Darin A.
January 15, 2007, 17:08
I Apologize for the comments it just seems that when ever your new on a forum you seem to be a target for the members that have been around. most people who know me know that i'm a no bull **it type of guy that likes to have informative conversations about guns. so if it was not intended that way I'm sorry.

to answer the question on rear sights mine has the Para rear sight also.
I have had just about all the different models in the last 20 years but for the money i think the argentine guns are great. it's hard to justify shooting a 50.63 that is like new.

Falcon
January 16, 2007, 20:27
Darin, thanks for the info. You're right, some boards can be like that but this one's different. Although every board has its trolls, these guys are OK, so don't sweat it. We were all new at one time so stick around. :]

Edited to add: Say...didn't you sell of some estate items a few years ago with one of them being an Dutch FAL rifle scope?

Darin A.
January 16, 2007, 20:51
Thanks for the words Falcon yes it was me that had the scope a good friend of mine passed away and i had to help sell of his estate.
glad the scope got a good home as it was a cherished prize in my friends collection.

Rhodie
March 20, 2007, 15:26
Could someone shed some light on the "SAC LATTA ,SC" Argentine. Company history? Why did they use inch parts? Number produced? THANKS.

1811GNR
March 20, 2007, 22:24
They were the importer that got stuck with those Argies in customs when the import restrictions took effect (89/90 ban). The rifles were broken apart, uppers and lowers sold by different companies. Not sure how some got built up as inch guns.

J. Armstrong
March 22, 2007, 20:10
And +1 on the Argies being good rifles. I've had several of varying pedigree, all have been great shooters, reliable, and I think a bit better finished overall than other late FAL types ( e.g. the Imbels and even the Herstal type 3s ). They can still ocassionally be found at favorable prices, too, especially the SACs ( just remember the compliance parts on these !).
FWIW, I believe most if not all of the SAC uppers came with a US "replica" flash suppressor threaded and pinned in place, and all that I have seen were openear, non bipod cut, and fully chrome lined. Also, for those not already familiar, the bolts and carriers generally stayed with the lowers. I believe Global Trading was one company which sold lowers/bolts/carriers as a set, I got one set for something like $350, then they gave a discount on a second set at $250. Not bad for all new components before the influx of kits and spares. One piece extractors seem to be most common by far, but there were some 2 piece, and fixed stock lowers with the para rear sight were sometimes seen. All the lowers I have seen were type 3s.

robmac
March 24, 2007, 22:11
To definitively answer your question - Pre 1989 ban.

J. Armstrong
March 25, 2007, 22:09
Originally posted by 1811GNR
They were the importer that got stuck with those Argies in customs when the import restrictions took effect (89/90 ban). The rifles were broken apart, uppers and lowers sold by different companies. Not sure how some got built up as inch guns.

A rifle with an inch lower was probably purchased as a complete upper less bolt and carrier ( mine came from DSA ) and had a b&c and the inch lower mated to it by the buyer. I'm not aware of any suppliers who assembled and resold ( at least not in any number ) , but that is quite possible as well. In any event, an SAC marked upper will always require the correct number of compliance parts to be legal.