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MPi-KMS-72
January 28, 2003, 16:41
Maybe this has been posted before but I just ran across it:
http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/SIG/fal/fal.htm

The site has some interesting info on South African R1s, It also looks like they could use info gleaned from the parts kits sent over here.

Cheers!

Matt Nelson

masman
January 28, 2003, 16:45
bookmarked:) thanks for sharing and welcome to the fal files.

EMDII
January 28, 2003, 16:49
Peter is a valuable Member here at the Files.

Peter- d'ya have a pic of that straight-stocked, ZF'd. sniper FAL?

MPi-KMS-72
January 28, 2003, 16:58
I never ran across a link to it here so I figured it was worth posting.

Has anyone run across one of these in amongst the kits that came in?
R1 (61 Base Workshop FTR) – Standard FN-FAL or R1 receiver, new black plastic furniture, new barrel, all metal with brown gun-coat finish, R4 type wide sling (but with wider end straps)

Would that brown finish be the same one later used on R4's?

I only purchased one R1 kit when they came inand mine pretty much was a standard R1(R1 (early catalogs list as R3) – No Crest, Black plastic butt and fore-end, “R1 7.62mm” markings, 22mm flash-hider, tube bayonet, R4 type wide sling (but with wider end straps), Zulu grenade sight/gas plug ) according to the information listed on that site- It had a nasty camo paint on it and was a complete mixmaster. Is there anywhere I can find a list of the various proofmarks used for domestic (SA) produced R1s? I believe mine is a mix of Belgian and SA produced bits- Would like to verify which is which.

BTW It is pretty sad to see that they destroyed so many FALs in Operation Mouflon:


LISTS OF SMALL ARMS DESTROYED

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle 198 506

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle (paratroop) 1 326

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle 3 708

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle heavy barrel 2 914

* Bren Light Machine Gun 3 637

* Vickers Machine Gun 2 256

* R2 Rifle 12 237

* Uzzi Sub Machine Gun 1 259

* Browning Machine Gun 412

* Other small calibre weapons 36 412

TOTAL: 262 667

http://www.mil.za/News&Events/News/Bulletins/Bulletins2001/49bulletin2001.htm

Cheers!

M

EMDII
January 28, 2003, 17:07
SA Proof Marks (http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/markings.htm)

MPi-KMS-72
January 28, 2003, 17:19
Cool thanks! I guess my Savage #4Mk1* saw SA service as well, It is stamped withthe Broad Arrow in "U". When I get my R1 restored I'll have to display the two together. ;)

M

EMDII
January 28, 2003, 17:27
I have a similar Savage No.4 Mk.1* that has been to RSA and back. If they could only talk......

masman
January 28, 2003, 18:56
Originally posted by MPi-KMS-72
BTW It is pretty sad to see that they destroyed so many FALs in Operation Mouflon:


LISTS OF SMALL ARMS DESTROYED

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle 198 506

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle (paratroop) 1 326

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle 3 708

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle heavy barrel 2 914

* Bren Light Machine Gun 3 637

* Vickers Machine Gun 2 256

* R2 Rifle 12 237

* Uzzi Sub Machine Gun 1 259

* Browning Machine Gun 412

* Other small calibre weapons 36 412

TOTAL: 262 667


M :cry: we should have launched operation fal files to stop operation mouflon:fal:

Richard Bird
January 28, 2003, 19:08
Originally posted by EMDII
SA Proof Marks (http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/markings.htm)

Here's an R1 Crest on a cracked type 1 receiver.
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Richard%20Bird/R1Crest.jpg

EMDII
January 28, 2003, 20:51
Richard, it is almost hilarious how you keep asserting this is a broken receiver. It is THE pic of the Shouth African rifle in Stevens book. It is one of Stevens' personal rifles, and he makes NO mention of it being broken. I laugh so much at this it hurts!
:wink:

cadillac
January 28, 2003, 22:49
looks like a scratch...

Richard Bird
January 28, 2003, 23:01
Originally posted by cadillac
looks like a scratch...
Have you ever run your finger down the scratch in the Liberty Bell?

cadillac
January 29, 2003, 08:29
RB

The "scratch" in the Liberty Bell has travelled all the way to an edge, as will most cracks. I've never seen (except in this photo) or handled the rifle pictured here - have you? I did not say "it is not a crack". I said "it looks like a scratch" - because it does.

You are entitled to your opinion. That's one of the wonderful things about living in the USA: you're allowed to speak your mind, even when you're wrong :]

MPi-KMS-72
January 29, 2003, 09:38
Well at any rate it doesn't look like there will be any more R1 kits from SA...

To think of all that destruction, the SA gov't didn't have enough funds to scrap the weapons so the Norwegians evidently donated funds to move the scrapping along. A real shame. Imagien the money they would have made had they sold those guns here as kits.

This makes me wonder- how many R1 kits were actually imported over here? They must have been bought prior to the SA Gov'ts decision to scrap all obsolete weapons.

I'd Love to have had one of those Vickers too... :)

M

Richard Bird
January 29, 2003, 13:03
Originally posted by MPi-KMS-72

This makes me wonder- how many R1 kits were actually imported over here? They must have been bought prior to the SA Gov'ts decision to scrap all obsolete weapons.

I'd Love to have had one of those Vickers too... :)

M

The imported kits were the scrapped R1's. We owe Norway big-time!!!!

dougjones31
January 29, 2003, 15:20
It does not sound like the two companies that were in charge of destroying the guns will be allowed to export parts! I think they were completely destroyed. :cry:

Oh well. Buy what you can, cause the whole world has gone crazy. The big money gun grabbers are using political clout on the other countries not to sell parts to the US! Norway? Why should they care?:sad:

EMDII
January 29, 2003, 15:28
Originally posted by cadillac
looks like a scratch...

IIIRC, it is actually a photo defect. YMMV!

MPi-KMS-72
January 29, 2003, 15:50
Ok is there any way to tell which parts were made in Belgium and which parts may have been made by Armscor?

My barrel has a "P" in an oval on the barrel's flat, also a "w".

on the left side it says "7.63mm L 308664" Obviously the # is the rifle's original serial #...
Underneath it has this cryptic stamp: "EE-12-53" then a boxed or oval proof with some # on it.

The Bolt Carrier Has the same oval "p" on top and the same ser #. Inscribed on the right side is "RA9839" ??? Inside are varouis proofs one of which is a box with "83" in it.

The bolt I believe is Belgian- It has 11204 for a serial # and on the left side there is a * over "H" proof- I believe I've seen these on Herstal made bits...

Any Ideas?

BTW the lower is just like a STG58 or G1 lower- with many proofs in ovals and the S E D (Dingis) Selector markings. I assume this is from the earlier guns bought from FN...

M

EMDII
January 29, 2003, 16:05
YMMV:
- Generally, Belgian parts have inspectors' marks inside very small square boxes.
- Belgian B/BC usually have a colophon on the spine. Under a microscope, this is a column atop a square base (in isometric view) as found in the center of Herstal town-square
- 7.63mm? :confused:
- "L" may be Lyttleton Engineering, predecessor to Armscor. I don't know for sure, and the SAACA list is not inclusive.
- RA SNs are South African. ZA is Zambian Army

Curioser and curioser!

MPi-KMS-72
January 30, 2003, 19:19
7.63 should have been 7.62- I should have proof read what I wrote!

I did some searches and found a post where peter Wells verified a similar barrel was SA made.

I ran across some other interesting things- The selector that came with my kit was originally a type "c" and had been ground to allow access to the full auto position.

Last night I got another SA (RA**** engraved) made lower from Gunthings.com- this one had had the little bock removed from the lower- thus allowing access to the full auto position even with an unaltered type c selector. This was evidently done intentionally and in country because the ground down post was covered with green paint.

I wonder if the country these came from ordered these in a semi configuration? has anyone else noticed similar things with their kit?(altered to allow full auto?) or was that just an anomoly I ran across?

M

cliffy109
September 27, 2003, 16:55
Originally posted by EMDII
YMMV:
- Generally, Belgian parts have inspectors' marks inside very small square boxes.
- Belgian B/BC usually have a colophon on the spine. Under a microscope, this is a column atop a square base (in isometric view) as found in the center of Herstal town-square
- 7.63mm? :confused:
- "L" may be Lyttleton Engineering, predecessor to Armscor. I don't know for sure, and the SAACA list is not inclusive.
- RA SNs are South African. ZA is Zambian Army

Curioser and curioser!

I realize this is an old topic, but I just stumbled across it. EMDII, what is your source on the ZA initials? I had heard it stood for Zud Afrika (obviously South Africa), the same as the ZA in Peter Wells' web address.

I've actually had a number of e-mail conversations with Mr. Wells about this. I was trying to figure out where Goucher's R1/R3 kits really came from. These kits had bipod cut handguards which were covered with the tell-tale Rhodesian paint, type 3 lowers and grenade launching sight gas plugs. Peter is quite insistant that there were never any type 3 rifles in South Africa or Rhodesia, nor were there ever any bipod cut handguards. I came up with a few theories on them but each had holes big enough to drive a Mog through.

I sent an e-mail to George Goucher asking if he could shed any light on this. I was hoping he could explain a bit about the country of origin. He hasn't returned the e-mail in several weeks.

EMDII
September 30, 2003, 10:23
I can't speak for Peter, since he lives in SA. But I can presume (SWAG: silly wild-ass guess) that since Type 3 production began in the late 70s, that any Type 3 is a 'migrant'. Something broke, and some enterprising gun dealer acquired spare parts for Zambia/Rhodesia, and some young armourer snapped them together. There may have been little in the way of official government dealings in this: MANY private security forces in Rhodesia used NGOs to acquire services and equipment.

Here's the skinny on ZA markings!
Zambian Army - (Northern Rhodesia)

(Usually hand stencil rotary engraved - not to be confused with the abbreviated 'ZA' roll or block stamp for 'Zuid Afrika' South Africa)


Think of a lower as a spare. And the African market of the 1970-1980 time-frame was awash in spares!

pallis
September 30, 2003, 10:38
All three of the Imbel/R1s I've recently purchased are stamped ZA followed by the serial number, which I take to mean South African and not Zambian Army, though they could have been anywhere. Someone out there knows the real history behind this present crop of Imbel/R1s, but they aren't talking.

cliffy109
September 30, 2003, 11:02
Originally posted by pallis
All three of the Imbel/R1s I've recently purchased are stamped ZA followed by the serial number, which I take to mean South African and not Zambian Army, though they could have been anywhere. Someone out there knows the real history behind this present crop of Imbel/R1s, but they aren't talking.

I agree. Mine too is clearly stamped with the ZA number, while the bolt is stenciled. I've given up figuring it out. I'm just building two, one with the new looking type 3 and refinished bipod cut HGs and another on a dinged up type 1 with non-bipod cut HGs. They'll both be Rhodies to me.

jim west
September 30, 2003, 13:31
I purchased a R1 kit from wholesale gun in 2000. This is when they were in central Islip. The kit was painted bluegreen from front to back.The barrel is non-chromlined,as is the chamber.The handguard's are bipod cut. The only markings on the entire rifle are Za serial number on lower, non-matching serial number on bolt, d inside a circle inside the carrier.The lower is contured for a type 2 reciever but has a type 3 recoil plate.Also no grenade sites or carrying handle were included. Oh, and the name or initials NYAMA carved into stock. After the paint was removed the parts had both black and brown gunkote showing, the brown being on top of the black. Most of the gunkote had worn away with park showing underneath. Maybe something here can be of use.

shootist87122
September 30, 2003, 19:52
I'm curious maximus to know if S.A. produced any Type II upper receivers.

My R3 to R1 conversion has a P in circle mark on the barrel, indicating Pretoria manufacture and it has a Type II lower. The lower has both horizontal and vertical matching serial numbers (272218). The off side has a lightly stamped RA S/N (RA2703) that is over ridden with the same SN in electro pencil (or vice versa), indicating Rhodesian service.

So... If Pretoria did produce some Type II uppers; this one gets a DSA upper in that configuration, if not (indicating the T-2 lower was acquired from a different source) it gets a DSA Type I.

Any thoughts?

cliffy109
October 01, 2003, 08:12
Originally posted by shootist87122

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I think somebody is as anal retentive as I am. :biggrin:

shootist87122
October 01, 2003, 10:45
Originally posted by cliffy109


Yeah, I think somebody is as anal retentive as I am. :biggrin:

:rofl: It sure looks that way!

After reading Peter's site (again), It appears that the SA manufactured guns were all Type 1s, so I'll have to assume the lower on mine is FN contract. At least it has the proper "S-R-A" selector markings (I think).

Edit: Peter indicates in another thread that the R1/R3s were Type 1s, but the recoil plate is radius cut like a Type II.

Enquiring Minds
October 01, 2003, 19:29
Originally posted by MPi-KMS-72

BTW It is pretty sad to see that they destroyed so many FALs in Operation Mouflon:


LISTS OF SMALL ARMS DESTROYED

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle 198 506

* 7.62mm R1 Rifle (paratroop) 1 326

...

TOTAL: 262 667


When viewed in the proper light of the 2nd Ammendment, it is actually a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, is it not? Don't look for the perps to be dragged to The Hague anytime soon though. :mad:

floatingFAL
October 04, 2003, 20:40
I just ordered one of gunthings SA manufactured kits but haven't gotten it. Paul says type 2 so I ordered a second receiver from DSA. I have from a pretty good source that the SA Imbels were brought in by Rav at DWH. You might call him.
ryan

moparman
November 03, 2003, 01:30
Well, I have a lower with the serial #ZA-0098 engraved into the right side in front of the locking lever hole. Here is the strange part. It is a British lower. Serial# UB60 A96016. Anyone know what the history of this one would be?

cliffy109
November 03, 2003, 20:43
Is it hand engraved or machine cut? Not that I know the answer, but that will be vital information for others.

moparman
November 03, 2003, 22:49
I can't say that it is factory done for sure. It is not quite like the normal RA serials I have seen done with an electro-pencil. It is close but there aren't "dots", just normal lines. Definitely hand done though. Maybe the armorers working on the Brit rifles had different equipment than the rest of the SA rifle armorers.

In a week I can post a pic. My wife is using it at college this week.:sad:

EMDII
November 04, 2003, 04:05
Originally posted by moparman
Well, I have a lower with the serial #ZA-0098 engraved into the right side in front of the locking lever hole. Here is the strange part. It is a British lower. Serial# UB60 A96016. Anyone know what the history of this one would be?

Facts:
BSA-built (UB)
1960
Originally Army stocks (A), and the 96016 SN issued that year.

Beyond that I can only speculate.

EMDII
November 22, 2003, 07:49
From another site I frequent:
I read and viewed, with great intrest, PW's contributions to this site. I lived in Rhodesia (now known as Zimbabwe) during the civil war that occured there from 1972-80.

Initially the Standard issue rifle was an FN FAL variant, known locally only as the FN. Earlier version were older British L1A1's purchased directly from the UK. Rhodesia had been part of the British Commonwealth, so primarily used British weapondary. After 1965 Rhodesia become subjected to economic sanctions, which obviously included Arms supplies. Rhodesia turned to South Africa as a source of resupply, hence the rifle used during much of the war was the South Africa FN R1.

Later on, about 1976 or so, the HK91/G3 began to make an appearance. I've always assumed these were captured from Mozambique after the capitulation of the Portugese in that country. The Portugese Standard issue rifle was the G3. However the volume and consistency of these weapons leads me to believe they were in fact purchased. They were primarily issued to secoundary units, with the back bone of the Rhodesian Army still using the FN. For obvios reasons the Rhodesian Government was very secretive about where it aquired arms.

PW: was the G3 produced under licence in South Africa?

Sorry to talk about weapons other than the FN

Thanx all.

Geoff

out!

shoota1911
November 22, 2003, 10:21
As an ex South African, and knowing the SA Govt.s attitude about private ownership of semi auto long guns, the operation Mouflon thing was no real surprise. I believe that all the R1s in the US were ex Rhodesian Army, this explains the RA numbers and the mixups of various parts, probably put together by Rhodesian armourers keeping the guns servicable with limited resources. Question.... does anyone have an R1 without the RA or ZA markings?
According to Peter Wells, The Zimbabwe Govt Sold all their FAL type guns along with a bunch of confiscated/surrendered civilian arms to a South African dealer on the condition that they would be exported from Southern Africa. The mystery is where have these guns been during the interim years, as I believe this sale happened some time ago and the guns are only now surfacing in the States. Another question regarding ZA.... is it Zuid Afrika or Zambian Army? If its Zambian army, did these guns end up in Rhodesia? Anyone with a gun marked with both ZA and RA numbers?
A lot of interesting history here. The R1 with RA no. I have has the sling swivvels almost completely wore out, evidence that it saw a lot of service during its time in Africa.

NHBandit
December 05, 2003, 22:33
Originally posted by shoota1911
Question.... does anyone have an R1 without the RA or ZA markings? Still trying to find out the origin of the R1 para kit I got from vorbeck. Lower is marked Z 18405 Lightweight lower), bolt & carrier marked Z 18399. just Z, not ZA. Electro pencil engraving, not stamped. All parts are Belgian manufacture.

J. Armstrong
May 06, 2004, 22:26
After rereading this thread, I went back and checked my rhodie kit currently being refurbished. The lower has the rounded cutouts on the recoil plate. Stamped s/n on left horiz just in front of the pivot of the vert latch lever. Electropencil RA s/n on right of lower. SRA marked with R ( selective fire ) selector. Blocking pin for semi selector is intact. Synthetic furniture. Barrel bore was a sewer pipe and was discarded but was chrome closedear non bipod with short combo device, synth non bipod guards. No camo paint anywhere .Bolt bears * over Yproofs. All numbers, both stamped and pencilled, match. Standard gas plug, carry handle intact. I'm guessing that this is a belgian contract gun. Could the lack of camo, the unbroken selector pin and carry handle, and overall VG condition ( except the bore ) indicate service with one of the "private" agencies ? From what I'm reading, I seem to be fortunate to have an all matching kit. I was saving a NIW Belgian barrel for another project, was going to use an argy barrel on this. Now I'm not so sure....:confused: :) Any thouhgts or observations would be welcome. Thanks, Jim

sjm
December 11, 2007, 23:28
I read in "SLR Australia's FN FAL" that Rhodesia bought some L1A1's from Australia it would be interesting to know the history of these in Rhodesia.

101ABN327
January 02, 2008, 09:15
Prior to UDI, Rhodesia was a colony of England. Monarchs' crowns were part of the various insignia and they flew the Union Jack. Rifles were provided by the UK as well. There were a LOT of SLR's in Rhodesian service. After UDI, of course, England was a bit miffed and cut them off. Rifles were purchased from S. Africa and Herstal. After the UN embargo, rifles were obtained through back channels and came from several sources.

The SLR saw service in second line formaytions once signifigant numbers of FN's were issued. Below is an example of an SLR from the late 70's time frame...

Thx,
101

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/19020rifles_004.jpg