PDA

View Full Version : Happened to see an IAI fal yesterday..ctxt


Bill@ARS
February 03, 2001, 14:40
I went to the range yesterday to test fire a couple of Fals. While there, I ran into a guy who had just bought a IAI Fal. He saw I had several Fals and asked me for help. The rifle did not come with a manual except for the general disclaimer notice from IAI. I helped him sight the gun and adjust the gas system. As I continued to explain the rest of the rifle I noticed several things. The gun was built on a South African kit on an Imbel receiver. The right side of the lower was sanded to remove the "RA" #. The lower receiver had been reparked as well as some of the other parts. Many of the parts had the original park with the high point worn to bare metal. The gas plug was original finish in black paint. The over all appearance was poor but still better than the Century or Hesse guns I have seen. I did not examine the bore but I'm sure it's no better than any other R1 barrels(it was non bipod cut) I have seen. The function seemed fine, it ran well at a gas setting of 3. The owner had several complaints. The gun (of course) was advertised as new. He said when he pulled the bolt it was bare metal. He said he called IAI about it. Instead of having him return the old bolt, they sold him a new one for $181.00. My mouth dropped and he said "Don't tell me I already know I got ripped." The trigger was also very gritty.
After I told him where I worked, he said he had been at our table before. In fact he had his credit card ready but figured his wife would kill him for spending $1175. Instead he paid $900 for IAI,$181 for a new bolt and now $150 for me to repark it. It pays to research what you spend your money on. For the record, my intention is not slam IAI. Just to offer my observations. You get what you pay for.Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill@ARS (edited February 03, 2001).]

Bullet
February 03, 2001, 16:29
Saw one at the range today. The owner was having problems. Probably due to the USA parts.

Talyn
February 03, 2001, 17:54
Bill,

I just picked up my IAI M444 today. While it is not comparable to my ARS STG I saw no indication it was made on a R1 S.African kit. The machine work is not comparable to an STG, but the bore is bright with sharp rifling. The bolt was not matching # with the lower but it was finished black. The parkerizing was even throughout and the gas plug matched. I rate the overall appearance as v.good except the handguards are marked up abit.

When I went for mine I didn't expect the quality of an STG or anything like the work of art I got from you (ARS) guys 2.5 months ago. My ARS STG is my pride and joy, while the M444 will get used abit rougher than the STG.

Don't know what that other guy had but it isn't indicative of mine.

Talyn

I also did not get a manual but there was a mag charger included

W.E.G.
February 03, 2001, 19:31
I fired one a couple weeks ago. It seemed to function OK. But, recoil was unacceptable. Even with the humpback stock. Much worse than other FALs I have fired. Recoil was so bad, that the owner, who was firing from a bench, actually received a juicy abrasion wound to his face after about 50 rounds. I fired 10 shots offhand. Several made me see stars from the impact of the stock on my face. I don't recall the gas setting. But, the owner is well-versed in FALs. I attribute the exessive recoil to the foward-angled holes on the muzzle brake. It isn't a brake. It is an ACCELERATOR.

Before somebody screams, "Well, what about the holes on the Belgian brake!" I'll say I don't know about the recoil-acceleration effect (if any) of the Belgian brake. I've never fired a rifle so equipped.

FWRA
February 03, 2001, 20:48
Originally posted by gary.jeter:
I fired one a couple weeks ago. It seemed to function OK. But, recoil was unacceptable. Even with the humpback stock. Much worse than other FALs I have fired. Recoil was so bad, that the owner, who was firing from a bench, actually received a juicy abrasion wound to his face after about 50 rounds. I fired 10 shots offhand. Several made me see stars from the impact of the stock on my face. I don't recall the gas setting. But, the owner is well-versed in FALs. I attribute the exessive recoil to the foward-angled holes on the muzzle brake. It isn't a brake. It is an ACCELERATOR.

Before somebody screams, "Well, what about the holes on the Belgian brake!" I'll say I don't know about the recoil-acceleration effect (if any) of the Belgian brake. I've never fired a rifle so equipped.

Gary,
I've fired four of these rifles (I test fire them all prior to shipping). and the excessive recoil you talk about is attributable to improper gas setting and nothing to do with the "accelerator" brake. IAI ships these rifles with the gas collar closed tight against the gas block (fully closed) and that WILL bruise you. These gas systems are so tight that most give up after a few minutes and just shoot them.

Three of the four IAI's I tested required knocking the collars off with a punch and hammer and needed to be cleaned and lubricated to get them to function by hand. These rifles were then test fired by me (starting with fully opened) and when adjusted properly I experienced none of those recoil problems and they shot as well as my ARS FAL.

Assuming that "experienced FAL shooters" understand the adjustment proceedure is a big mistake. I've talked to many "experienced" FAL owners and collectors who's advice ranged from "just close the gas off", to "just set it on "3" and go" one even told me "it only needed adjustment after 500rds when things got gummed up". These were guys that have owned these rifles for many years, when if the truth were really known, they sit in gun safes and are fired very seldom.

Believe me, the brake is not the culprit here. IAI has to accept the blame for shipping rifles with closed gas systems and seemingly "too tight to adjust" collars, but there are many excellent manuals out there that explain this proceedure and many owners never read them or understand them. The many different gas systems out there help confuse the issue, some like the IMBELS have every gas setting in one revolution of the collar but some don't. The Israeli guns are even more confusing and they must be opened until the vent hole is exposed, (many turns of the collar) THEN the gas setting can proceed.

This has been my experience with four rifles. But the incidences explained above by old time FAL shooters proves my point. If you doubt me, take your own survey on gas setting proceedures and you'll see what I mean. :-)

These rifles are great values but do require "fine tuning" before they can be enjoyed to the fullest. Hopefully, with time, IAI will slow down a bit on rushing these out to dealers and distributors and iron out these nagging but minor problems and deliver a "ready to shoot" product.

Until then, that burden falls on the shoulder of responsible dealers. :-(

Warm Regards,
Mark Powell
FWRA

Talyn
February 04, 2001, 17:09
Ditto on FWRAs comments. The dealer I got mine from did no prep work, and really didn't know much about the gun. He said they were "new", but we all know they are "newly reassembled" with a few new parts. I didn't bother to discuss it with him because it likely wouldn't have been worth it.

Any M444 buyer from Mark is getting "extra" pre-sale service. Anyone else will have to get a manual and prep their own guns. At least IAI should do is put a manual in with their guns. My opinions of course.

Talyn

Max Jaeger
February 04, 2001, 20:09
Well I've had my M444 for about a month now. Came with one mag. A mag reloader and a manual. The gas adjuster is stiff however it is operatable with an adjuster wrench. The gas setting was correct for factory .308, which happened to be at the #3 setting. I did need to close it up by one click for the radway green stuff.Windage was correct when I first shot it, however I did need to adjust the elevation. The trigger is not particularly gritty or heavy.I must say with the factory stuff I was shooting 2"-2 1/2" groups at 100 yards and I'm not a vey good shot. I traded a CAI sporter and $400.00 cash for it, it was advertised for $850.00. I carefully inspected the rifle before I purchased it.The park job is actually pretty nice, the black paint on the gas adj. is worn off and there is some blueing left on the bolt.The bore is shiny like new condition. I see no evidence of a RA # sanded off of the lower receiver ( I read from an earlier post that these parts are from Chile.). Yes, if you look closely you can tell it's a parts gun but you have to look real close at the hand gaurd or the butt stock to determine this. However last time I looked, The only company in the U.S. thats making an fal type weapon thats not a parts gun is DSA. Now I'm not knocking any of the "smiths" guns however I did not see any for sale at that gun show and I must admit I sure like to handle and inspect my weapon first hand before I buy one.To the comment that one gets what he pays for, I would totally agree. For $850.00 I got exactly what I paid for. A reliable accurate rifle. Now I'm sure the $1,175 rifle is very nice, and you get what you pay for as is the $1,500 DSA rifle. Some of us can afford Mercedes, some of us BMWs however others can only afford Fords and I fall into that catagory http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif.

PS

I always find it amusing when a competitor reviews another competetor's product. I wonder what Coke would say about pepsi...oh it's way too sweet, you'll never like it. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 00:54
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 00:57
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 00:58
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:00
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:04
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:04
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:06
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:06
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Painkiller
February 05, 2001, 01:07
I've had my M444 for about a month now. I must've been damn lucky because, as of yet, I'm the only guy on this whole board that seems to have purchased one that has a gas setting knob that can be clicked over with only my thumb. It works very well. Nice noticeable clicks with every detent.

But, like others...it certainly isn't a new gun. I had a small amount of sand in my lower and, when I field stripped/cleaned it, the barrel was pretty dirty. Much more so than some simple test firing would do. The forward handguard was REALLY beat to hell with scratches all over it. I replaced it with a new one from DSA. The upper receiver cover had a small ding in it and I also replaced that with DSA's extreme duty scope mount. The buttstock is in pretty good condition. I put a rubber Hogue sleeve on the pistol grip and also dropped in a recoil buffer.

This rifle looks really good and I can't wait to finally shoot it.

It was $791 out the door at AIM. Add $10 for the buffer/ $10 for the sleeve, $100 for the mount/ $60 for the handguard and I've got a $971 rifle.

I don't feel quite as bad banging around this rifle as much as I will my DSA medium contour when I get it.

I can't even imagine owning a $2000+ preban. Screw that! Something like that would only sit in my safe. You just can't...well, I just can't afford to have something like that get a nasty ding or scratch in it.

I think how much you plan on using a rifle has to come into play with the price. Being directly in the middle class, I don't have $$$ to burn and not worry about damage to very expensive guns. The M444 is a pretty nice, affordable, semi-beatable gun.

Just my $0.02 worth.

February 05, 2001, 02:54
I think you got much more than just .02 worth on this forum at least!!!! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif
Robert

Radio
February 05, 2001, 04:04
Try test-firing that little icon with the pencil next to your post date. It allows you to delete posts, on the off chance you might ever possibly need such a function... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

--Radio

gunnut1
February 05, 2001, 06:20
See my M444 review in the review secton.
I also had to break the gas regulator loose. It is still stiff but will turn with a tool. I have checked the threads and the turn quite freely. I am thinking about getting another regulator and seeing if the one that came with the gun us slightly undersized.
Mark, I had the regulator set a about 3 or 3.5 and my gun was kicking so hard with commercial ammo that it knocked me out. When I came to, it was kicking the guy on the next bench! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif

Talyn
February 05, 2001, 10:19
Not slamming them, but from what I've read even the top-of-the-line DSA guns aren't 100% US. However, they do have the highest percentage.

garandman
February 05, 2001, 10:32
Painkiller -

Is your M444 full auto??????


http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif

Dude, hit the "edit" button, and then click the delete checkbox.

the garandman
"Hopelessly lost, but making good time."