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NZ L1A1 Collector
January 04, 2003, 17:16
I thought that since this is going to be my 1000th post that I would post something informative and insightful. Here you go :)

C1 Rifle Variants

C1

The standard C1 rifle as made by Canadian Arsenals Limited from 1956 - 1962 were based on an imperial conversion of the metric made FN EX1 rifles. When production was undertaken using imperial measurements the design of the body (upper receiver) was in the same style as what is now known as the FN TYPE 1 receiver. A total of 65,375 rifles were made to this configuration.


C1D Navy Issue
C1 rifles purchased by the Canadian Navy were converted to allow automatic fire with the replacement of the following C2 parts:-

Safety/Selector
Trigger plunger

To distinguish between the standard C1 and the Navy’s C1D a Large ‘A’ was engraved into the butt and painted white.

C.A.L. C1 Rifle

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 04, 2003, 17:26
C1A1

The following components were changed on a C1 rifle to bring it up to the new C1A1 standards;

New pattern Plastic Carrying Handle (to be used as the indicator of C1A1 compliance)
New pattern Firing Pin fitted (2 piece)
New pattern Firing Pin Spring (variable pitch spring and coloured red)
New pattern Breech Block fitted or bushing applied to the firing pin hole on existing rifles
Change Barrel dimensions (modify Chamber, Bullet Lead and Bore).
Retrofit (repair or replace parts to “As New” condition)

These modifications were undertaken from 1961 onwards, the remaining rifles (7,400) in the contract to the Canadian Defence Forces were built to this new standard. Rifles already assembled were modified during overhaul programs contracted to CAL.

It will be noted that there will in fact be a mixture of early and late pattern butts in service this is because the use of the new pattern butt plate could only be fitted to the new pattern butt. In the interest of cost saving ONLY when the butt or butt plate was unserviceable and there were no stocks of the early pattern available for exchange would the latter pattern be fitted.

C1A1D Navy Issue
Conversion of existing stocks of C1D rifles to the new C1A1 standards, as listed above.

C.A.L. C1A1 Rifle

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 04, 2003, 17:29
C1A1 8L Serial Numbered Rifle

It should be pointed out that there are in fact two types of 8L series rifles. The first incorporated the design changes, which consisted of;

New pattern Receiver (simplified manufacturing implemented).
New pattern, square shaft ejector, for easy Unit removal.

Also the rifle is fitted with the latter patterns of Handguards, Butt, Butt Plate, Carry Handle, Body Locking Lever, and Magazine Catch. It also incorporates all the modifications that created the original C1A1 rifles.

C.A.L. C1A1 8L Serial No. Rifle

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 04, 2003, 17:32
C1A1 8L Serial Numbered Rifle (the almost C1A2 Rifle)

At a latter stage, right at the end of the C1 production in 1968 the 8L series was altered again, this time the following components were changed;

New pattern Gas block (same style as C2).
New pattern foresight protectors (same as that used on the C2).

This modified C1A1 rifle was going to be re-designated the C1A2. It was also muted to undertake the same modifications to the existing C1A1 rifles by sending exiting stocks though a factory overhaul program, but this project was shelved.

In total maybe 1000 of these rifles were made in this configuration.

C.A.L. 8L Serial No. Rifle (almost the C1A2)

Snakeshot
January 04, 2003, 18:26
I stand in awe.:bow: :beer:

Your 1000+ posts have brought a lot of excellent content to this board. Thanks from this falfiler!

Now, when's that coffee table book coming out? Or am I going to have to print out and bind my own (for personal use only, of course)?:wink:

masman
January 04, 2003, 20:43
as always very imformative:bow:

Andy the Aussie
January 04, 2003, 23:34
And his camera skills are much better than mine.........BLOODY KIWIs.....:p :p :p :bigangel:

recce
January 04, 2003, 23:53
Nice pics Kevin.

Not too sure about that figure of 100 on the last change to the 8L series though.

In the Stevens book you see the last number of the series at 8L5018. I have one in the last configuration with #8L3XXX so there should be at least a couple thousand of these out there.

I was talking to someone a few weeks ago that was at CS Military when the shipment came in a few years ago. They got 1300 in plus some of the C.A.L. cut away models.

For some reason the O.P.P. guns went to the U.K. ( may be for sale before the nutty gun laws took hold there) and were then imported back to Canada, which is why they are BNP marked on the barrels.

Gene

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 05, 2003, 03:52
Sorry snakeshot I still haven't managed to do a coffee table book.... I think for now you are going to have to print and bind them yourself.

Andy: :D

recce: I'm still trying to figure out exactly how many for the 8L's are the first type and how many they did of the second. I wonder what the split is of the 5018 rifles made in 1968?

Need to find someone with one of the earlier 8L....... know anyone?

Mr pogo
January 05, 2003, 04:41
6 variants but only 4 pics, Kev? Time to visit the colonies on another acquisition trip ;)

Congrats on the 1K! :)

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 05, 2003, 05:41
for Mr Pogo's Viewing pleasure :)

C1D Navy Issue

C1 rifles purchased by the Canadian Navy were converted to allow automatic fire with the replacement of the following C2 parts:-

Safety/Selector
Trigger plunger

To distinguish between the standard C1 and the Navy’s C1D a Large ‘A’ was engraved into the butt and painted white.

C.A.L. C1D Rifle

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 05, 2003, 05:44
C1A1D Navy Issue

Conversion of existing stocks of C1D rifles to the new C1A1 standards, as listed above.

C.A.L. C1A1D Rifle

Dwalton
January 05, 2003, 10:37
As always Kevin , nice pics !
My brother loved the C1A1D . He's a Submariner in thr RCN .

DJW

cadillac
January 05, 2003, 11:03
As always, great stuff Kevin.

Just how many FAL type rifles are in your collection?

I think that the coffee table book is a wonderful idea!

Brian in MN
January 05, 2003, 17:22
Keven, do you know how to distinguish a Canadian mag from Aussie? Are they marked or otherwise different?

What did they use for slings on the C1 series?

recce
January 05, 2003, 17:56
Kevin
Don't know anyone off hand, but I will ask around. I take it that the disc I sent got there?

Brian,
The C1 originally used the same sling as the Enfield. It was later switched to a green web sling with two green plastic buckles. Sorry the pic isn't a close up, but you can see the buckles.

Gene

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=recce1754&album_id=27728&image_id=15&courtesy=1

SrBenelli
January 05, 2003, 20:13
Hey Kev....exactly how many FALs/L1s do you got over there ?????:cry:

withergyld
January 06, 2003, 10:04
He may have them, but is he allowed to shoot them???

Batman
January 06, 2003, 15:53
Several years ago I bought two "Canadian" C1 mags from a gun show in Canada. When I compared them with my other L1 mags I couldn't tell the difference except for the weld pattern on the back side of the mag where the metal is joined. Some, and only some of the mags had less weld marks than the others. Also, the Brits finished off the mags differently thay the rest of the commonwealth.

Brian in MN
January 06, 2003, 18:01
Thanks, recce and Batman.

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 08, 2003, 01:12
I'm away with work at the moment so i have to make this a quick post.

Unfortunitly I don't have all the rifles shown, I have one and I've used that and photoshop to create the various versions of the C1 rifle. I wish I did have all the rifles shown!

recce: i haven't seen the CD yet, it's in the post some where I guess hopefully it will be sitting in the letterbox when I get home.

Batman is correct the only way to tell the difference between the C1A1 magazines and Australian is by close examination of 'how' the casing is made. One easy thing to ID is Canadian magazine followers are 'Bright' ........... just like the L2A1 30 round magazines (same follower).

The C1 magazines are very recognizable due to the 'ribbed' base plate and the dent in the rear of the case just like a 'metric' case. This was used to ease the bottom plate off, just like the metric magazines.

Hope this helps.

bykerhd
January 08, 2003, 07:36
Were the Canadian barrels of the same pattern as the British version, the Australian or something different yet ?
Also, was walnut the primary wood used by the Canadians ?
EMD II is apparently in the process of working up a replica and now after looking at the original version of the C1 I think I know the direction he may be taking.
Too bad we can't get the real thing here in the States.

Great information. Very classy way to cross the 1000 post threshold.

EMDII
January 08, 2003, 09:48
There's more. Be patient!
:wink:

recce
January 08, 2003, 20:11
Kevin,
Should have got there by now as I mailed it the week before Christmas. The lady at the post office told me that air should take 7 - 10 days. You didn't change addresses did you?

I have received 3 responses on my inquiry about the 8L's so far. All have the late C2 style sight and range in numbers from 8L32XX to 8L41XX.

If any more info comes in I will let you know.

BykerHD,
Cdn barrels stayed 6 groove and chromed through out thier production. The later barrels had a small cut in the swivel ring to allow for a tab on the swivel that kept it from rotating in front of the gas block.

Brits and Aussies went to 4 grooves in the mid 60's I beleive and chromed only the chambers for a while.

Walnut is the only wood used on C1's and A1's though the factory probably looked at plastics.

Gene

EMDII
January 09, 2003, 09:58
I WANT that gas block!
:cry:

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 28, 2003, 00:08
I wish they were 6 individual rifles but unfortunately they are only one rifle that has been manipulated in PhotoShop.

HOWEVER The configurations shown are correct. :)

leftent
January 28, 2003, 21:48
If that part is being sold by "Skyrooster" it's legit. He is a former Canadian Army Small Arms Instructor and is a stand up guy. (And seems to still have a bunch of parts)

Leftent:fal:

NZ L1A1 Collector
January 29, 2003, 15:11
The mag catches that 'Skyrooster' are in Unused condition and are original Canadian C1 mag catches.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE
These magazine catches are for the original Canadian C1 receiver, (looks like a metric Type 1) these catches CANNOT be used unless the ejector block is modified OR the small stem on the magazine catch is ground down!!!!!! These will not just 'swap over'

It will be a shame to see these rare catches modified but the grinding down of the stem. :(

Left the original C1 magazine catch (machined)
Right: the second model commonly found on the C1A1 (fabricated)
NOTE: the different types of screws used.

leftent
January 30, 2003, 11:13
Man! I learn something new every day!

Thanks Kevin!:bow:

Leftent:fal:

fal fiend
January 30, 2003, 11:27
really like the looks of the early c-1,,metric type 1 upper..rest all inch looking,,,i really like seeing different varietys of the fals,,so many flavors,,,,love to have a dutch looking postban too:)

Abominog
October 29, 2008, 14:51
Bump

Falfegnügen
November 29, 2008, 23:43
Now that we're talking C1A1's again, how did the new ejector block fit into an old reciever? Was a new receiver required? I mean the one with the "square" quick-change ejector.

I'm pretty sure that I saw where SLR-5000 had done an excellent looking copy, I wonder what he did?

snowhawk jockey
December 01, 2008, 12:24
Originally posted by NZ L1A1 Collector
The mag catches that 'Skyrooster' are in Unused condition and are original Canadian C1 mag catches.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE
These magazine catches are for the original Canadian C1 receiver, (looks like a metric Type 1) these catches CANNOT be used unless the ejector block is modified OR the small stem on the magazine catch is ground down!!!!!! These will not just 'swap over'

It will be a shame to see these rare catches modified but the grinding down of the stem. :(

Left the original C1 magazine catch (machined)
Right: the second model commonly found on the C1A1 (fabricated)
NOTE: the different types of screws used.


What is the "stem" that would be ground down? Is it the support part that leaned against the catch screw? I have an original mag catch like pictured above and want to know if it or the block was modified.

bsn
December 04, 2008, 13:03
Originally posted by Falfegnügen
Now that we're talking C1A1's again, how did the new ejector block fit into an old reciever? Was a new receiver required? I mean the one with the "square" quick-change ejector.

snip...

The new ejector "block" is a complete replacement for the existing ejector "block
with a replaceable section which includes the ejector.

The receiver is the same, and after the new ejector became available, receivers were retrofitted with the new ejector block.

I'll see if I can locate some pics.

Falfegnügen
December 06, 2008, 20:34
Originally posted by snowhawk jockey
What is the "stem" that would be ground down? Is it the support part that leaned against the catch screw? ...

Look carefully at the picture in post #28 at the early C1 catch on the left. It is the support, but in this early version it does not lean against the catch screw. Instead, it goes up into the bottom of the ejector block in the receiver.

Falfegnügen
December 06, 2008, 20:40
Originally posted by bsn


The new ejector "block" is a complete replacement for the existing ejector "block
with a replaceable section which includes the ejector.

...I'll see if I can locate some pics.

Thanks, that would be great! I always see the little rectanglular section at the bottom of the mag well where the block goes, below where there would be a pin. Is it press fit? or welded permenetly to the receiver?

I have the small replacable sections, so I know what that is like. Just can't figure out how the new large part of the block fits in the receiver, and I don't have one of those to go by.

sparkeyboaz
November 11, 2010, 14:07
Originally posted by NZ L1A1 Collector
The mag catches that 'Skyrooster' are in Unused condition and are original Canadian C1 mag catches.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE
These magazine catches are for the original Canadian C1 receiver, (looks like a metric Type 1) these catches CANNOT be used unless the ejector block is modified OR the small stem on the magazine catch is ground down!!!!!! These will not just 'swap over'

It will be a shame to see these rare catches modified but the grinding down of the stem. :(

Left the original C1 magazine catch (machined)
Right: the second model commonly found on the C1A1 (fabricated)
NOTE: the different types of screws used.

Does anyone have pics of the necessary modification to the ejector block in order to use the early C1 mag release?
I just located 2 of these mag release levers from "skyrooster" and am interested in how to install one with out modifying the release itself.
I have an Imbel MIC receiver and am willing to convert it to be a "dedicated" conversion for my Canadian clone.
Thanks, Sparkeyboaz

sturmgrenadiere
May 29, 2011, 09:46
Kevin,

Again, I am without any of my reference material here, but did not the C1A1 also incorporate the improved body? If I recall the references in the Steven's book, the 8L ultimately was the incorporation of the removable ejector along with the implementation of the removable front sight ears.

Boy I miss not having my books and notes on hand...

Regards

Ben

Abominog
May 31, 2011, 22:09
Not all 8L had the receiver changes.

enbloc8
January 18, 2012, 13:01
Were there any known instances of earlier production C1/C1A1s (i.e. with the original type receiver cuts) being fitted with the 8L-type gas block and front sight?

Vaughn L. Allen
January 19, 2012, 19:27
The mag catches that 'Skyrooster' are in Unused condition and are original Canadian C1 mag catches.

VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE
These magazine catches are for the original Canadian C1 receiver, (looks like a metric Type 1) these catches CANNOT be used unless the ejector block is modified OR the small stem on the magazine catch is ground down!!!!!! These will not just 'swap over'

It will be a shame to see these rare catches modified but the grinding down of the stem. :(

Left the original C1 magazine catch (machined)
Right: the second model commonly found on the C1A1 (fabricated)
NOTE: the different types of screws used.

Would this mag catch be appropriate on the C2A1 or was it the regular type?