BATF and receivers

[c east]

Just ordered 10 of the coonan type 1 ..The FFl told me I am sure to get a visit...I love to build these things and I'm retiring next year and want plenty to work on...May not ever sell any but may someday...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend I told him to use my tools and make one himself...What do I need to do When/if they come around?...If I know they are comming I can have a lawer here with very little effort...What do you think?

[dougjones31]

If they do come...they will probably do so in the next year.....you probably will just have the receivers in your safe.....unbuilt! Just tell them that you bought them for an investment, or replacement for your guns! There ain't shit they can do about it! :wink:

just make sure that you do not have any full-auto sears from your kits laying around! They will probably haul you off if you do!

[c east]

Thanks That is Logical and easy...Later

[c east]

Yea I didn't thinks about the sears...I keep them because I never throw anything out..I thought with only semiauto recievers it would be alright...Out they go...Hate to feed auto guns anyway...
Ever load up 500 308 mags? I did it by hand in 1966 about by third week in the army...When they told my what the detail was I thought I had died and gone to heaven...I changed my mind after the 20th Mag...God was I dumb...Thanks

[Court in Fl]

Maybe I missed something, how would the ATF know you bought 10 receivers unless your dealer told them ?

All 10 should be on one 4473 if they are transfored at one time.
They are not handguns so no multiple handgun report to fill out.

Now if the ATF come to see the dealers books and see 10 receivers going to you they may ask the dealer about it
he should just say you are a collector.

I would not worry about the ATF on something like this.
Now if one of the receivers shows up used in a crime
then get ready for a visit.

I have been a FFL dealer for 20 years and the ATF has never
showed up at my door. Talked to them a few times on the phone
and they where very helpful.

Enjoy building your FAL's.

Court in Fl.

[havoc10mm]

FFLs are required to report to the ATF any time someone buys more than 1 gun at a time.

[shortround]

FFLs are required to report to the ATF any time someone buys more than 1 gun at a time.

Not. And I quote:

Reports of multiple sales of two or more handguns sold at one time or during any five consecutive business days are also required to be submitted to ATF. 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(3).

The only time the BATF MAY get involved is if they make a compliance inspection and notice the sale of the 10 receivers. The seller is not required to report the sale.

Court has it right.

[James]

I don't think the sear makes any difference if you have them laying around. They are not a restricted item. As long as the receiver is not cut you can't do anything with them.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be one.

James

[dougjones31]

James,

The possesion of the Full-auto parts could be construed as an act of building a full-auto weapon, especially if you do not have a class 3 weapon....if you did have a class 3 then the parts could be for replacement on that gun. The BATF will freak out about full-auto parts. They might not would say anything in another situation, but since his FFL probably did report his large purchase....I would make sure that they do not think you are manufacturing Machineguns!

[c east]

The FFL told me his stuff is due to be inspected in Mar...He also told me he does not report the sales ,but they are sure to notice..

[dougjones31]

Nothing to worry about! Just be ready for a visit in March or April......and have those sears out of the house! Give them to a friend to keep....in case of any future National emergency.......or for when the Supreme Court rules that since the Second Ammendment gives us an Individual right to bear arms and the Federal government has no right to ban any type of gun. If the NFA of '68 is declared unconstitutional.....then we can build full-auto guns again....legally! You would want your parts back then!:wink:

[geerhed]

Pardon my ignorance, I've only rarely interacted with the BATF, but unless they are packing a warrant, what is their authority in his house? Can they even force him to show them the receivers at all? Where is the legal limit of their authority? I understand that FFL's give up a lot of their privacy to the BATF, but I don't recall that private citizens do, regardless of what they order by mail.

Someone posted a while back about having called the press to his house when the FBI came to interview him during the "DC sniper" period (he owned a .223 and somehow they knew it). FBI agents were pissed. Got a camcorder? Tape the interview if they talk to you (hopefully on your front porch with the door between you).

[Blood of Tyrants]

Originally posted by geerhed
Pardon my ignorance, I've only rarely interacted with the BATF, but unless they are packing a warrant, what is their authority in his house? Can they even force him to show them the receivers at all? Where is the legal limit of their authority? I understand that FFL's give up a lot of their privacy to the BATF, but I don't recall that private citizens do, regardless of what they order by mail.

You are correct. Unless they have a warrant, they have no authority to enter your house without your permission.

Originally posted by geerhed
Someone posted a while back about having called the press to his house when the FBI came to interview him during the "DC sniper" period (he owned a .223 and somehow they knew it). FBI agents were pissed. Got a camcorder? Tape the interview if they talk to you (hopefully on your front porch with the door between you).

An excellent idea. Tyrants prefer to work in secret. Also have a lawyer on hand if the show up at an appointed time. Simply refuse to let them in if they don't have a warrant and whatever you do, DON'T TALK TO THEM. Read this link: http://www.radio887.com/public.html


As for the auto sears and the FA ejector blocks, don't worry. The semi-auto FAL is NOT considered "readily convertible" to FA.

[dougjones31]

When you are talking about the Alphabet Crew......Always be worried! They will have a warrant to see the guns.....and if you think that the agents that come will know a FAL from a G-3...then you are fooling yourself. The agents will not know anything about wheather a FAL is "readily convertable" to FA or not. They might not even know enough about FALs to know what a sear is.....but if you get a gung-ho agent who brings a diagram of a FAL and wants to impress his boss......then you might be in for some trouble if they find a box of sears!

It is best to be cautious when dealing with the BATF! They want to justify their existance......and arrests do that!:mad:

[FAL guy]

Originally posted by James
I don't think the sear makes any difference if you have them laying around. They are not a restricted item. As long as the receiver is not cut you can't do anything with them.

Of course I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be one.

James

Absolutely right. Stick your sears and ejector blocks in a drawer in the garage. No sear cut receiver, no foul. M16 parts+ AR-15 lower is a different story.

If they show up, be polite, but tell them only you purchased the receivers for repair and replacement on personal firearms. If they ask to see them inform them you are willing to help them in their investigation and you will be happy to show them anything specifically listed on a warrent. Oh, they don't have a warrent? Send 'em packing!

If you volunteer to show them while they are in your home, anything they see or find while you do so can be held against you!!

[TideWater 41009]

Originally posted by c east
...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend......
c east, technically you are not "manufacturing" or "making" guns. The receiver is the gun as far as the law is concerned, whether it is capable of firing a shot or not, and that part required a federal license to manufacture. If you refer to our hobby as "manufacturing guns" in the presence of a gov't official, you could get yourself into unnecessary legal trouble.

That's how I understand it, anyway.

[c east]

Thanks...never thought something I love to do so much would get me nervous...weird times.

[jaybob]

You can put more than one gun on a single 4473

[Jen]

While it is not required for the dealer to use more than one form to record multiple firearms purchases (ie there is space for I believe 5 or so firearms to be listed on the form), some dealers themselves require you to fill out 1 form for each and every single gun you purchase.

Yeah, it's kind of silly but I guess it makes for easy record keeping for the ffl (no missing any firearms on the form, etc).

It's not an ATF rule, it's a dealer preference in how they do things.

c east: to my knowledge the FFL need only make a single standard NIC's call to transfer the receivers to you. Nics will ask for 'how many' 'rifles' are being purchased to which the dealer will answer 10. You may or may not get a visit as a result.

[Dave1]

Originally posted by c east
Just ordered 10 of the coonan type 1 ..The FFl told me I am sure to get a visit...I love to build these things and I'm retiring next year and want plenty to work on...May not ever sell any but may someday...Don't want to manufacture any and when asked to make one for a friend I told him to use my tools and make one himself...What do I need to do When/if they come around?...If I know they are comming I can have a lawer here with very little effort...What do you think?


C east, I know it sounds strange but something to keep in mind, make sure you don't have 10 kits on the property at the same time as the recievers unless you have the required amount of US parts laying around also. According to the atf, if you have all the parts necessary to assemble the rifle whether the receiver is barreled or not it may be considered an assault weapon and as we all know, that's a no, no.
Dave

[Enquiring Minds]

No entry without warrant, no talkee without lawyer.

While it is "illegal" to lie to Fed LEOs (unless you're an elected official), you CAN use THEIR favorite line in reply to anything they insist/persist in asking:

"I CAN NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY THAT"

"I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY"

"HERE'S MY ATTORNEY'S CARD, HE WORKS THE SAME HOURS YOU GUYS DO"

"DID YOU ENJOY YOUR DRIVE OUT HERE? LOVELY WEATHER WE'RE HAVING, EH?"


ps: buy your firearms, especially "EBRs", from low-volume dealers who aren't under frequent scrutiny from BATFoo... like Court in FL... I know a "kitchen table" FFL who has never seen the alphabets in 13 years, despite 3 address changes. He only sells to honest folks, so nothing ever traces back to him.

[EMDII]

Originally posted by jaybob
You can put more than one gun on a single 4473

Of course! Look on the back. You can have several. I recently acquired 'several', and my dealer has no requirement to report that acquisition. But they ain't pistoles!
:wink:

A separate 4473 was NOT required for each acquisition.

[Bearwhositshere]

I stand corrected. PIG PILE on the Bear!:eek:

[cc48510]

I think assembling a kit is also considered manufacturing. But, that does not matter as to be considered a "manufacturer" you must manufacture guns on a continuing basis for resale for pecuniary gain (profit).

You can manugfacture all the guns you want for personal use as long as those guns comply with all applicable laws (AW Ban, etc...) You can technically even sell those guns at a later date in order to buy more guns (enhancement of collection rule). But, doing so will probably get some unwanted scrutiny from the ATF. The only rules are:

1) Any Gun you manufacture must be legal (AW Ban, etc...), and
2) You cannot manufacture guns as a business. This is defined basically as manufacturing guns as a regular course of trade for resale as a means of pecuniary gain.

You could build an FAL for a friend if you wanted as long as it wasn't for pecuniary gain. But, this might tend to lead to issues with the ATF. So, generally I wouldn't manufacture guns for friends. I might help them manufacture their own OTOH.

I should also not that all other rules relating to possession apply. I.E. you cannot manufacture if you are a felon, etc...The law also reads that selling to terrorists meets the definition of "Manufacturer" regardless of profit. Then again, I'm sure noone here would be making guns for terrorists. Well, other than a certain PLO loving member that is...

[Adventurer_96]

I'm definitely not a lawyer but I found this link a while back which talks about the ATF going after an individual who owned a BAR and FAL. Of interest is the last bit of the case where the judge rules that the BAR was registered and it was only a clerical error, of one digit I believe, and that the FAL would require a significant amount of work to turn it into a "machine gun."

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_1FAL.txt

[cc48510]

Yep, the transcript makes the ATF witness look like an idiot. He tells the court that the FAL in question was a MGun because it was readily converted. Then, the Attorney for the Defendant showed them a shitload of ATF Approved guns that were alot easier to convert than the FAL in question.

He then had it explained that an FAL takes hours of precision work to convert to Full-Auto. while some of the other ATF-Approved guns could be converted by drilling a single hole (AR-15) or even changing a few parts (M1 Carbine).

In the end, the court used common sense and ruled that the FAL was not readily converted. The BAR issue was idiotic in the first place. The ATF screwed up and registered it with a 3 instead of an 8 as one of the digits or something like that. The court ruled that it was properly registered and the ATF had to fix their record.

Originally posted by Adventurer_96
I'm definitely not a lawyer but I found this link a while back which talks about the ATF going after an individual who owned a BAR and FAL. Of interest is the last bit of the case where the judge rules that the BAR was registered and it was only a clerical error, of one digit I believe, and that the FAL would require a significant amount of work to turn it into a "machine gun."

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_1FAL.txt

[cc48510]

BTW, lawyers aren't cheap. So, if you have no use for the Auto Sears...Just toss them or sell them on E-Bay.

[c east]

Their trash already...

[c east]

I have more american parts that kits...So it should be Ok...may haul these kits to a friends place anyway as room is scarce and bring one kit at a time to work on...Having two kits apart at the same time is foolish...Ever noticed how STG 58 pins that hold the hammer and trigger are loose in an Imbel lower?

[TideWater 41009]

Originally posted by TideWater 41009

c east, technically you are not "manufacturing" or "making" guns. The receiver is the gun as far as the law is concerned, whether it is capable of firing a shot or not, and that part required a federal license to manufacture. If you refer to our hobby as "manufacturing guns" in the presence of a gov't official, you could get yourself into unnecessary legal trouble.

That's how I understand it, anyway.
I'll try to clarify my position;
Barreling and headspacing a receiver is considered gunsmithing, not manufacturing. Unless you are constructing a receiver, you are not manufacturing a firearm.

Changing a stock, refinishing metal, or replacing a hammer, trigger and sear is also considered gunsmithing (at best), and not manufacturing.

[Circuits]

Originally posted by TideWater 41009

I'll try to clarify my position;
Barreling and headspacing a receiver is considered gunsmithing, not manufacturing. Unless you are constructing a receiver, you are not manufacturing a firearm.

Changing a stock, refinishing metal, or replacing a hammer, trigger and sear is also considered gunsmithing (at best), and not manufacturing.

ATF defines taking a never-before built reciever, on which no excise tax has been paid, and building it into a complete firearm to be 'manufacturing' under the law.

Your regular Type 1 (dealer) FFL cannot legally order a box of 100 stripped receivers, get 100 parts kits, build them all into firearms and sell them as complete rifles. Only a Type 7 or Type 10 FFL can legally do this for resale - although a non-licensed person can do it for personal use.

If the receiver has already been part of a complete firearm, and excise tax was paid on that transaction, then subsequent reconfigurations are just gunsmithing.

[TideWater 41009]

Circuits, I stand corrected. I did not take into account the new receiver and excise tax.

[PigPen]

Well, at least that makes a good story.

PigPen

[G3isMe]

Originally posted by Circuits


ATF defines taking a never-before built reciever, on which no excise tax has been paid, and building it into a complete firearm to be 'manufacturing' under the law.

Your regular Type 1 (dealer) FFL cannot legally order a box of 100 stripped receivers, get 100 parts kits, build them all into firearms and sell them as complete rifles. Only a Type 7 or Type 10 FFL can legally do this for resale - although a non-licensed person can do it for personal use.

If the receiver has already been part of a complete firearm, and excise tax was paid on that transaction, then subsequent reconfigurations are just gunsmithing.

Circuits, do you know the specific statute that states this. I understood it the way others have stated. The receiver is the firearm and it is imported with a serial number, excise tax paid, etc, and treated as such for transfers. They new receivers have been allowed to be imported for repair and/or replacement. Hence a kits receiver needs to be repaired and/or replaced. Therefore, a dealer could order the 100 receivers and kits and "assemble" them, not "manufacture" them into complete rifles, 922r compliant of course.

[cc48510]

Excise tax is only paid on complete guns. A receiver has never had the excise tax paid on it. The excise tax is collected on the first sale after the gun is manufactured. This usually means that the Manufacturer pays the tax and adds it into the price.

Assembling guns for resale is considered manufacturing last I checked and requires a Type 07 (Manufacturer) FFL and payment of the Excise Tax.

FWIW, the Repair/Replacement wording is BS. Importers are required to mark such on their permits to get them approved. Some trade group suggested they mark their kits and receivers as such...to avoid any problems with the ATF. But, under the law you can use the kit for any legal purpose (including building). The importer is the only person limited by what he marked on the permit. I.E. If he says Repair/Replacement and Builds on them...he lied on the application which violates 922(a)(6) if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by G3isMe


Circuits, do you know the specific statute that states this. I understood it the way others have stated. The receiver is the firearm and it is imported with a serial number, excise tax paid, etc, and treated as such for transfers. They new receivers have been allowed to be imported for repair and/or replacement. Hence a kits receiver needs to be repaired and/or replaced. Therefore, a dealer could order the 100 receivers and kits and "assemble" them, not "manufacture" them into complete rifles, 922r compliant of course.

[cc48510]

Here is a simple explanation as I understand it:

1) You rebarrel an existing complete firearm...Gunsmithing. You are rebarreling/repairing a gun.

2) You do a complete makeover on a gun...Gunsmithing. You are still working on a gun that has already been built.

3) You assemble a gun from receiver and parts kit which has never had FET paid on it...Manufacturing. You are now building a complete gun (Firearm Definition 1(?)), not just working on an existing gun.

4) You finish an 80% Receiver. Manufacturing. You are making a Receiver which is a Firearm (Firearm Definition 2).

Basically, whenever you convert a gun from Definition 2 (Receiver) to Definition 1 (Weapon Capable of Discharging a Projectile)...the ATF considers it manufacturing. Same goes for converting a Title I Firearm to Title II (NFA) Configuration.

I'm not sure what rules apply if you buy the parts kit with receiver (Firearm Defintion 3(?)) on which FET has been paid. The ATF considers a kit and receiver when sold together to be a complete firearm for purposes of the Excise Tax.

[c east]

Here I go to the Batf site to start studying...Half of us here may be making lockers in Jail...

[MWDG3]

Originally posted by c east
Here I go to the Batf site to start studying...Half of us here may be making lockers in Jail...

Including all the companies here selling auto kits and semi receivers...by your legal definition anyway.

If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period.

My .02.

4 pages here...

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=30&TID=15073&SID=1793165

[msnyder]

"If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period."

That's why FAC won't sell a parts kit and a receiver at the same time to the same person.

[MWDG3]

Originally posted by msnyder
"If it's illegal for you to buy/own, it's illegal for FAC(for example) to sell/transfer. The ONLY exemptions for ANY licensee pertain to approved .gov weapons, period."

That's why FAC won't sell a parts kit and a receiver at the same time to the same person.

Is that due to "for replacement parts only" or "readily adaptable"?

[msnyder]

"Is that due to "for replacement parts only" or "readily adaptable"?

I asked them once and the person I talked to didn't know why.
It might be due to the excise tax issue.

[MWDG3]

I'd sure like to hear from FAC about that, or any other distributor like Dan's.

If these are considered "readily adaptable" even on the same premises as a semi receiver I'd think the BATF would've put 2 and 2 together a LONG time ago.

With that logic all the FAL and G3 kit builders like AZEX and ARS have in their possession an illegal "readily adaptable" machinegun EVERY time someone ships them a project to build.

[msnyder]

"I'd sure like to hear from FAC about that, or any other distributor like Dan's.

If these are considered "readily adaptable" even on the same premises as a semi receiver I'd think the BATF would've put 2 and 2 together a LONG time ago.

With that logic all the FAL and G3 kit builders like AZEX and ARS have in their possession an illegal "readily adaptable" machinegun EVERY time someone ships them a project to build."

I don't think that is the reason they won't sell the receiver with the kit. I'm pretty sure it is the excise tax issue.

[Circuits]

It's an excise tax issue. If they sell you all the parts required to build a complete firearm, that's considered a complete firearm by the ATF, and excise tax must be paid by the manufacturer.

The cite/reference for this is in the USC pertaining to excise tax paid by manufacturers on complete firearms and complete firearms kits.

No manufacturer can legally sell you a parts kit and a receiver on which to assemble it without paying excise tax on the sale. A dealer (non-manufacturer) cannot legally sell you both a receiver and a parts kit in the same transaction.

I have a manufacturing license (Type 7) - I will happily order a customer a receiver, or a parts kit. I cannot legally order both and deliver them in the same transaction without reporting it as manufacturing activity and paying excise tax on the sale/transfer price of the parts. If the customer brings the parts to me, having already taken possession of them, either from elsewhere, or in separate transactions through myself, then they are presenting me with a complete parts kit they've put together, and I can legally perform the gunsmithing work to assemble the kit for them without reporting it as manufacturing activity or paying excise tax on the value of the labor.

[G3isMe]

Originally posted by Circuits
..........If the customer brings the parts to me, having already taken possession of them, either from elsewhere, or in separate transactions through myself, then they are presenting me with a complete parts kit they've put together, and I can legally perform the gunsmithing work to assemble the kit for them without reporting it as manufacturing activity or paying excise tax on the value of the labor.

So in this example are you assembling them, or manufacturing them? Or am I just splitting hairs. I guess my real question is what is the legality of a private citizen buying a couple of kits and receivers, building them, keeping them for awhile, and then sell them to "enhance" ones remaining gun collection? I think what gets everyone "nervous" about this is that the kits were in their former life full-auto assault rifles. If we were taking about a large and cheap supply of surplus Remington Model-4 deer rifle kits and cheap chinese receivers for them, most people probably wouldn't even give it a second thought. JMHO.

[Circuits]

In the last example, I am assembling and not manufacturing, because under the law, the "manufacturing" took place when the customer acquired all the parts and the receiver necessary, and effectively did the manufacturing themself for personal use. I'm then just performing a gunsmithing service.

I could not order in a receiver and complete it on a parts kit for a customer without paying excise tax, since in that case, the first time the firearm was "manufactured" would be in my shop, and I'd be liable for the tax.

You can build as many legal rifles for yourself as you want, provided they're NOT being built for resale when you build them. If you then hang onto them for a reasonable period of time (I'd suggest at least a year and that you use them all as much as you can to show you built them for personal use and used them), then there should be nothing wrong with you later reselling them to further enhance your collection.

[Para Driver]

No entry without warrant, no talkee without lawyer.

[CDReid]

50 bucks every single one of you guys know more about firearm laws than the average ATF agent. 100 bucks that at least 5 people on this forum know more about firearm law than any atf agent. 500 bucks that almost everyone on this forum knows more about firearms and firearm law than any antigun nut in congress.

[G1user]

Why bet on a sure thing???

[Thomas Paine]

Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a reciever manufacturer paid the excise tax on it when seeling it to an FFL . The law says a reciever is a firearm , it doesn't matter if it is built up or not. Now if you are a manufacturer with a tax number I was under the impression you could buy recievers without the excise tax but had to collect it when you sold it. Like purchasing any other supplies with a tax number. What is the Reg or Statute that covers this?

[c east]

I keep reading FACs yellow flier and wonder why I dont see building a firearm for my personal pleasure that I plan to keep...Could this be going the way of MKS and the M-14 recievers?

[Circuits]

Originally posted by Thomas Paine
Pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that a reciever manufacturer paid the excise tax on it when seeling it to an FFL . The law says a reciever is a firearm , it doesn't matter if it is built up or not. Now if you are a manufacturer with a tax number I was under the impression you could buy recievers without the excise tax but had to collect it when you sold it. Like purchasing any other supplies with a tax number. What is the Reg or Statute that covers this?

Excise tax is paid only on complete firearms, not on receivers or incomplete parts kits.

When you buy a stripped receiver direct from Bushmaster or Olympic Arms, no excise tax has been paid on that transaction.

When you buy a COMPLETE firearm, 11% excise (for long guns) was paid on that firearm when it was first sold to the distributor or dealer by the manufacturer.

[ILM Sniper]

Just my .02....
Might just be much ado about nothing. Worked for a FFL for years down here. There is no space on the 4473 for the number of firearms bought, just rifle,shotgun or handgun. The FFL dials the number, the NICS ppl ask for your FFL# and code word, and ask questions pertaining to the blanks on the 4473. The clerk is essentially relaying all info on the 4473 that the customer has filled out. The back side is the rifle/shotgun/handgun question, which the clerk/FFL answers. You get a combination of letters and numbers and are proceeded, dleayed or denied.
As for BATF showing up at your doorstep.....
Maybe if you live in an area of the country with NOTHING going on. I live in SE NC. I am also a law enforcement officer. The local BATF field agents are like gerbils on those little metal wheels down here. Saying they are busy is like the understatement of the year! And contrary to popular opinion- they do know their weapons, at least the ones I know. These guys have a LOT more on their plates than someone screwing a FAL together. Doubt the visit will ever happen- of course thats just my opinion I could be wrong!

[jt325i]

Don't forget the coffee & donuts for when they pay you a visit. :tongue:

[yoony64]

Agents in SE NC must be a lot busier than the one's in central Texas. I got a visit for a Change of Address on a C&R license.

[Dlagrua]

As a dealer BATF visits my shop usually every three years at the time for renewing my FFL. The state police also come by regularly. The purpose of the visits by the inspectors are to seek and insure dealer compliance to firearms laws. I don't believe that the number of firearms is an issue but the type of firearms in inventory.. The interest seems to be mainly iin the recod keeping.
I have found the BATF inspectors to be courteous and professional but not very knowledgeable on firearms. I carry only traditional sporting firearms but did have one pre ban semi auto UZI in my gun safe last time the inspectors did the audit . They erroreously reported a suspected full auto rifle on my premises and they were soon back to visit me agiain. THis time two inspectors showed up.They requested that I field strip the firearm (which I did) and they proceeded to take digital photos of all of the parts to send to their technology branch. The rifle is now and was always a perfectly legal piece and subsequently nothing beacme of the incident. However,this may indicate that since 9-11 BATF seems to be doing a very thorough job of insuring compliance. In summation everything is fine and business goes on as usual.

[John Hardin]

Originally posted by cc48510
You could build an FAL for a friend if you wanted as long as it wasn't for pecuniary gain. But, this might tend to lead to issues with the ATF. So, generally I wouldn't manufacture guns for friends. I might help them manufacture their own OTOH.
If you separate the transactions - e.g. sell him the parts as a kit, then have him turn around and pay you to assemble his kit for him - would that make it less likely to garner unwanted attention?

[OMR_RDTandE]

If you're going to build weapons for other people, friends or customers, for profit or for free, it's cheaper to pay for an 07 FFL, than to keep a lawyer on retainer.

In either case, I'd be more concerned about Civil Liability, than Criminal Prosecution for manufacturing without a license or tax evasion. You can get the proper licenses and pay the appropriate taxes. However, since you aren't actually making all the parts yourself, and in fact are using used and surplus parts, you may have little control over the final quality (read safety) of the product. Additionally, you have no control over the weapon once it leaves your possession.

Remember, "No good deed goes unpunished". It may reach your level of comfort if your "friend" wants to use your tools, under your supervision, to build his weapon, with his supplied parts. I'd take a hard look at what my homeowners or liability insurance would/wouldn't cover.

I guess my point is that Liability Insurance may be a necessity, even if profit is not a goal.

I'm neither a Lawyer nor an Accountant, so none of my comments should be taken as legal or accounting advice. I have, however gone to a school of great minds and allegedly know something about commerce. Additionally, I had type 06 and 07 FFLs, with SOT status, for six years and, at one point, was very adept at interpreting and dealing with the regulations of the BATF.

YMMV.

[FWRA]

c east: to my knowledge the FFL need only make a single standard NIC's call to transfer the receivers to you. Nics will ask for 'how many' 'rifles' are being purchased to which the dealer will answer 10. You may or may not get a visit as a result.

The first part is correct. One call for any quantity of firearms to one person.

Regarding "long guns" (which is also the FAL upper receiver), no quantity is ever mentioned by either the dealer or the NICS representative. Same goes for handguns.

The dealer is required to fax to the ATF a Multiple Handgun form immediately after the multiple pistol transfer.

The NICS Center has absolutely no way of knowing either the quantity of firearms purchased, or the make or model. They ask..."What type of firearm?"
The correct answer is handgun or long gun. (or both)

FWRA

[boltactionsforever]

There seems to be so many different opinions about these issues...I thought I would put on line the letter I received directly from the BATF about assembling a FAL parts kit on a Imbel receiver.....Read the items and you can see it's pretty straight forward....The second responce to clairy the BATF's position about the replacement Imbel receivers and the tax issue is ALSO clearly addressed...


"A person who assembles a taxable firearm, such as a rifle, may be liable for manufacturer's excise tax on the SALE(Key word SALE!) or USE of the firearm imposed by section 4181 of the Internal Revenue Code."

A second letter was received from the National Revenue Center that I may also copy to the board for further clarification if I can find it in the next couple of days......This is the part which applied to individuals building there own FAL using available FAL kits and Imported "for repair or replacement" Imbel receivers

"The tax is ONLY APPLICABLE if you are a manufacture(section 4181-see above)...a individual assembling a gun for personal use IS NOT a manufacture according to the IRC code...If you SOLE purpose is to assemble for "profit" and not personal use, then you will need a BATF manufacture liscense AND have to pay the NRC tax accordingly.... " ...it goes on to say..."A manufacture may replace a known bad-defective receiver with a "import for repair/replacement only" receiver without additional tax because the original receiver or weapon when imported was taxed if within defined years of importation tax being applicatible"

This should clear a ton of questions up for everyone with first hand information ....remember second hand information is just that, and everyone has there "own" interpretation of the law..but a letter addressed to YOURSELF from the governing body's clears a lot of these issues up.

Hope this helps, and I'll dig up the NRC letter and copy it to this page also...


FYI

:fal:

BAF

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0703/31116.jpg

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0703/31117.jpg

http://www.picturefuse.com/images/0703/31118.jpg

[Court in Fl]

The second paragraph on the first letter list the things that are unlawful
when FAL kit and receivers are concerned.
From the way I read it they say you should not use a post 2000 Imbel receiver.
But they are being somewhat vague , if you ask me.

They know people are using these receivers and kits, the $64.000.00 question
is what (if anything) are they going to do about it ?

Bill Clinton sure screwed us over every chance he could get.

Court in Fl.

[boltactionsforever]

The only things that you can not use are the imported receivers and barrels FROM kits that where imported for repair/replacement....You can tear this letter apart from top to bottom, but personally I think there is JUST TOO MUCH being read into the building of these kits...it's pretty straight forward......and it even says they are legal to build in the finishing statements.....


Build the kits with which ever receiver you want.....

Remember, the BATF has to prove your NOT compliant--you dont have to prove your innocense.....And they know this, otherwise they would be contacting EVERY person that has purchased a kit....

There is NOTHING in this letter that states that you can not use a "repair/replacement" receiver---it only states that you "may" be liable for Import "tax" if it apply's to you..(Are you a manufacture?...probably not according to the NRC letter ) and even that is covered with the second letter that eventually I will get posted on this same link...

hope this information helps....


FYI
:fal:
BAF

[Court in Fl]

The only things that you can not use are the imported receivers and barrels FROM kits that where imported for repair/replacement....

YES, thats what I am saying. It's hard to tell when a parts kit came in the US
as all STG, Imbel, R1, G1 kits look the same , pre or post 2000.
But a receiver is a diffrent thing.

I would hate to see someone lose a FAL in this way.

Build on a US receiver and avoid this possible problem.

Court in Fl

[Jen]

Has something changed? Item 3 on the list of requirements to build states that you can only have ONE of the following.. Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.

[G3isMe]

Originally posted by Jen
Has something changed? Item 3 on the list of requirements to build states that you can only have ONE of the following.. Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.

I thought the same thing when I read the letter. But since they omitted the detachable magazine I am "assuming" they "assumed" that since the letter was regarding the assembly of an FAL it would posses a detachable mag and you could hence only have one more of the evil features. But this is only my "assumption" and they obviously have no trouble changing horses in the middle of the stream and interpreting the rules as they see fit. I am still somewhat surprised that a thumbhole stock is now considered a pistol grip.

[Pa. Patriot]

Originally posted by Jen
...Last I checked the AWB stated no more than TWO of the following of which pistol grip and detachable mag were on the list. This letter doesn't mention the magazine, only the pistol grip.

Detachable mags are NOT "evil features" !!!

They are one of the 2 "Qualifying featues"

A weapon that is SEMI-AUTO -AND- Has the ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE... Is subjust to the FEATURE list of which said firearm is only allowed ONE on a post94 build.

[Pa. Patriot]

RE: the letter and "repair/replacement" import parts.

They state that you can not build using parts that you would be banned from using due to "repair or replacement".

Well, someone show me the law that states these parts are not usable by you, the consumer, to build a compliant rifle?
The only people "BANNED" from building using the parts, per the import conditions, are the IMPORTERS.

Someone show me in text anything that says anyone other than them is banned from using these parts for building...

The letter on PG.2 does not state this.

Two places it addresses this.

1) It states "Some barrels and receivers were imported for repair and replacement only, not for assembly into new firearms"

What it does NOT say is that that is a form 6 condition and as such is only a restriction on the IMPORTER. The end user is not bound ny the conditions of the IMPORT license signed by the importer.


2) States it's ok to build if not a MG, AW, or unlawfully assembled from imported parts. Well - I can find no law preventing YOU from building on imported parts provided you comply with 922r. To be "unlawfully assembled from imported parts it would have to be non 922r compiant, or built by the IMPORTER (who IS not allowed to build from the imported parts).

[Court in Fl]

Hello everyone, I found this in the December 2003 Small Arms Review
page 99.

Sounds like the ATF could go either way on this issue and are waiting to see
who wins the 2004 election. See below, under the link.

And please take a look at this link also,

http://www.atf.gov/pub/ffl/2001/may/p5.htm

Court in Fl.

[tk421]

Originally posted by FWRA
The dealer is required to fax to the ATF a Multiple Handgun form immediately after the multiple pistol transfer.

You can avoid that by going to multiple dealers for your pistols, right? One pistol per dealer. Not that I have the money to be able to buy multiple pistols at a time. Hell I wish I had the cash to be able to afford one a month!

[Bullet]

My brother has a line he uses for everyone whether a panhandler, phone solictor, some one at the door, cops, or anyone else. He simply says, "I can't help you." If they continue, he says, "I can't help you." I've heard him several times with people and no matter what they say or ask him he will just keep repeating, "I can't help you." Its as if thats all the english he knows.

[Court in Fl]

This link is related to the repair and replacement topic.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118076

Read all the information you can find then decide for yourself what you think the ATF will do.

Court in FL.

[jdmcomp]

I believe that gunsmithing, if not done on ones personal arms only, requires that one have an FFL also. Even more trouble. Manufactoring or gunsmithing, does not matter if uncle sugar wants to make a federal case.

The purchase of ten receivers does indicate potential unlawful action.

In the early 60s my father got a visit from the same folk for stocking up on sugar after the Cuban takeover by Castro. They went into the attic to verify that the 25 lb sacks of sugar were not being made into wiskey.

[c east]

I have used 2 recievers and the rest sit in my closet with 8 FSE trigger groups and 8 FSE folding cocking pieces and 8 Izzy LB wood stock sets. ans 2 STG 58 sets and 6 Imbel parts kits....Now to get some time....Charlie......I'll get to them some day

[pcguns]

Thanks...never thought something I love to do so much would get me nervous...weird times.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson

If we are feeling nervous about our rights from the government you might need those 10 built!

[Court in Fl]

Well it's now 2007 and no Imbel receivers have been imported for a while.
And all FAL, AK, G3 and other machinegun barrels are being tourch cut to be allowed in the US.

Whats next ????


Court in FL.

[Rick]

JMHO, don't EVER say you bought guns as an investment. An individual buying and selling guns with the intent to make a profit is something the ATF takes a very dim view of. Even one gun can get you all sorts of legal hot water.

You are a collector with no profit motive, not an investor. Again JMHO.
I'd be the first to say I'm not that knowledgeable so comments/corrections welcome.