PDA

View Full Version : Ident/magazines: Who made the 30 rd. metric magazines ?


espeholt@hushmail.com
January 21, 2002, 04:10
I have two such magazines. I thought they came from South Africa but I am in connection with a FAL specialist from S/A and he says he never have heard of such a magazine.
Thx
Claus :eek:

espeholt@hushmail.com
January 21, 2002, 04:10
I have two such magazines. I thought they came from South Africa but I am in connection with a FAL specialist from S/A and he says he never have heard of such a magazine.
Thx
Claus :eek:

EMDII
January 21, 2002, 04:13
They are usually conversions.

Some Metric 30x did appear, and I'll be honest and SWAG that customers who bought the 50.41 might have asked for them. Rumours persist taht FN made a few. Beyond that I am not well-informed.

EMDII
January 21, 2002, 04:13
They are usually conversions.

Some Metric 30x did appear, and I'll be honest and SWAG that customers who bought the 50.41 might have asked for them. Rumours persist taht FN made a few. Beyond that I am not well-informed.

Andy the Aussie
January 21, 2002, 05:41
I will take a stab in the dark here.....South Africa at one time modified .303 BREN Guns to 7.62 much like the UK did...and as we here in skippy land purchased. I have seen a pic of them some years ago....they were not the (someone correct me here) Mk 4s that were convereted by the UK (tangent rear sight) but were the earlier drum sight models....Mk 2 and 3s I think.

Said BRENs were fitted with black plastic stocks grips and handles and used a flash suppressor very similar to the FN Combo device. Now...I also recall that the magazine used was a straight 30 rounder (much like the L2 magazine). I am thinking this was a copy of SOF mid 80's or so.

I am sure that South Africans being the innovative folks that they are (but we are better cricketers :D ) would have made this magazine interchangeable with the FN's (R1's) in service.

Now like I said....I do not profess to be an expert in such matters but it may be close...Peter Wells may be best able to solve the mystery.

All the best
Andy :cool:

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Andy the Aussie ]

espeholt@hushmail.com
January 22, 2002, 05:36
I can tell that the 30 rd mag I have is a genuine factory made 30 rd metric mag. It is NOT an adapted British 30 rd mag or an adapated 20 rd. metric mag.
I can't see any markings on the magazine.
Claus
:mad:

Peter Wells
January 22, 2002, 07:05
I believe that Andy-the-Shepherd is 100% correct about this issue (as he is with his MOST unkind remark about cricket, I'm embarressed to say!).

I haven't yet been able to pin down exactly by whom, where or when these mags were made but they differ from normal metric 20rounders only in that they are longer and blued (rather than gun-coated) and the finish has been rougher - but still fully interchangeable with the FAL.

The production of many small-arm components was contracted out to private enterprise by Denel so it could be one os many.

I am pretty sure that all the BRENs I have seen here (both in .303 and converted to 7.62 in the 70s) were Marks 1, 1m and 2 only - Enfield and Inglis production.

ps. Despite the above, I have an oddity in my collection. A ZGB33 body (ser # 65) that went 100% thru the conversion process at LIW but then got rejected at assembly time - the barrel nut (and some other lesser parts as well) are not interchangeable between the ZGB and the Mk1/2 BREN. Quite a conversation piece.

Peter Wells
January 23, 2002, 02:52
More on this:

Extracts from 'The Machine Gun 7.62 Millimetre' parts list (Sept 1975 - when the conversion was underway):
1) Covers Mk1 and Mk2 guns only
2) Lists and illustrates a 20rd mag only
3) Lists and illustrates Mk3 bipod as well as Mks1 & 2
4) Lists and illustrates Mk4 butt as well as Mks 1 & 2
5) Lists Mk5 butt-plate as well as Mks1, 2 & 3
5) Lists and illustrates wood (walnut) and 'nylon' furniture for Mks1 & 2
BUT
The pic on the cover has a line drawing of a gun (can't see if Mk1 or Mk2) with a VERY long mag in place.

Can send scanned image if anybody is interested.

Andy the Aussie
January 23, 2002, 03:36
G/day Peter ......SA got a new world record last night eh.... :eek: :eek:

But back to Brens.....the image of the SA conversion stuck in my mind because of a comment in the article about the magazines.....mainly the fact that thye were straight like the L2's and not the more familar curved L4.

I would have the magazine "somewhere".... :eek:

All the best

Andy :cool:

Peter Wells
January 23, 2002, 07:05
Jeez Andy, I was really hoping you weren't going to mention the horrible 'C' word. 'Nuff said!

If you can find that article I would really appreciate a copy.

I am currently working on the BREN family for my collection and am in the process of licencing one of these guns (a build project on a converted Mk1m body) to add to my 8mm ZB30 (Ethiopian contract), .303 Mk2 (Inglis 1942), ZB52/57 and a curious 7.62 converted ZGB33 body. The I will HAVE to stop on the BRENs.

Feel free to pop over for a shoot sometime.

EDIT: Forgot to ask about another 30rd mag I have. It is metric, 'in the white' stainless and slightly curved like the Can etc. Any idea of it's origins?

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Peter Wells ]

ErikAndersson
January 23, 2002, 17:28
The 7.62 NATO South African BRENs had their magazines supplied by Australia.I don't know if they were originally made metric but they are the Aussie straight mags without the British BREN curve.South Africa also used 30 round mags in G-3s that were mostly Portuguese made and came to South Africa from Angola. So South Africa looks to be big in 7.62 NATO 30-round mags.After the embargo that caused them to be more innovative maybe they made them in locally.The Aussie 30 rounders are a Canadian design.

Andy the Aussie
January 23, 2002, 23:37
Erik....that would be a new one on me...Kevin Adams may be the best source for this kinda info....(afterall he sleeps with a couple of L1A1 mags and a sling or two under his pillow)....but I am unaware of the Aussies supplying the SA's with L2 magazines.....I may well be wrong.

In our L4 Brens we used magazines (curved) that were for the most part Brit manufacture.

espeholt....what is the spring configuration inside your 30 round magazine...??? Also as I recall...and I havn't handled one in a number of years...on the back edge of an L2 magazine there is a raised block that isn't present on the 20 round magazines...as for finish...I have never seen a blued 20 or 30 round magazine of aussie manufacture.

It just gets more and more interesting... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Andy :cool:

And just for you Peter.....Cricket Cricket Cricket....
:D :D

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Andy the Aussie ]

espeholt@hushmail.com
January 24, 2002, 07:39
The spring in the 30 rd. magazine looks pretty much like the spring from a 20 rd. magazine - perhaps a little streched - but the numbers of bendings are the same.
The magazine body is like a normal 20 rd. mag. + 50 %
I can send pictures.
Claus :rolleyes:

Peter Wells
January 24, 2002, 08:23
Damn, there you go with that filthy 'C' word again Andy!

I am not aware of any Aussie supply of mags to SA as mentioned by Erik. The BREN upgrade was in 1975/1976 by which time the arms embargo already had a beard so I would be suprised if Oz knowingly and illegally supplied any hardware to us - but not impossible.

Erik - I would be very interested in looking at any references you may have on this matter?

BTW - Claus and I are in agreement that his mag and mine seem to be identical in mnfr, lack of markings etc. Mine is in original blue and Claus has advised his was recently refinished. I'm sticking to my guns at this stage that they are SA mnfr.

PS. JUST HAD A BRAINWAVE AND CALLED ONE OUR GUYS WHO WAS WORKING FOR LIW AT THE TIME. HE CONFIRMS THAT THE ABOVE WERE MNFR FOR LIW BY A PRETORIA SUB-CONTRACTOR (THE NAME EXCAPES HIM FOR NOW).

cadillac
January 24, 2002, 08:52
American Munitions (AM) in Michigan sometimes has these in stock. They did again just recently, but I'm not sure if they have any left. From my conversations with AM I understand that these were imported from South Africa. However, I don't remember any claim made as to the actual location of manufacture. These are genuine 30rd metric (straight) mags. They are NOT weld ups, nor are they Bren (L4) or Inch (L1) conversions. When loaded they're heavy but function is just fine.

HTH

ErikAndersson
January 24, 2002, 08:57
As far as I know the curved Aussie mags are for the BREN.Canada supplied Oz with many of the parts for their L2A1.I think the carry handles were all made in Canada.Not sure where the mags where made but the L2A1 was around before the Bren 7.62 conversion.There were a lot of Aussie weapons in SA during the embargo not directly supplied by Oz but from other countries that had bought them from Oz.I have some good photos of South African 7.62 Bren mags some where.I can't remember if the floorplate was inch or metric design.I did read someplace that SA got some tooling that was from Oz and most likely got it after the embargo as their FALs were of metric design.I'll look for the photos and books I have around here.

EMDII
January 24, 2002, 09:01
American Munitions definitely had some straight 30x Metric mags a few weeks back. Imported from RSA was the report, too!