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View Full Version : 7.62 NATO Wound to Leg


Dano
January 04, 2001, 21:38
The photos were posted on the AR15 board.
Poster (SGT Dave) said the wound was caused by a M60. Hope you're not queasy.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1434453&a=10752019&p=37015512&Sequence=0

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1434453&a=10752019&p=37015514&Sequence=0

gates
January 04, 2001, 21:42
looks like they already excised a bunch of bad tissue.

aj

thorlin
January 04, 2001, 21:52
The moral to the story....

Don't **** with uncle Ted when he's drinking....

awp101
January 04, 2001, 22:02
Murphy's Law of Combat #7: Incoming fire has the right of way... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif
(see signature...)
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awp101
Air Assault!
Maybe life is like a ride on the freeway, dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way-The Offspring

[This message has been edited by awp101 (edited January 04, 2001).]

Rivrrat
January 04, 2001, 22:09
Note to self, always point the business end of the rifle down range.

awp101
January 04, 2001, 22:16
Seriously though, these are a very good reminder of just what can happen when weapons aren't treated with the utmost respect. Even if this guy got it for being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

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awp101
Air Assault!
Maybe life is like a ride on the freeway, dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way-The Offspring

762NATO
January 04, 2001, 22:19
Somebody rang ?

EMDII
January 04, 2001, 22:24
Interesting entry: front, high, and travels axially, exiting distal side of knee. Not a very easy recuperation.
http://www.fnfal.com/forums/frown.gif

DABTL
January 04, 2001, 22:27
Thanks Dano for the pictures. Yuk.

Sabo
January 04, 2001, 23:14
Eeehhh, it's just a flesh wound. You know in the movies Van Dahm or Texas Ranger or whoever would just "walk it off". I remember one guy getting hit square in the arm then almost casually pulling himself up a ladder.

Looks like the "vitals" were missed.

[This message has been edited by Sabo (edited January 04, 2001).]

Jen
January 04, 2001, 23:15
Ouch..

Weird angle on that shot though..

Keep your finger off that trigger when carrying your weapon.. might even want to keep it on safe just in case.

Dano
January 04, 2001, 23:18
...and ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a SAFE direction!!!

Tominkilleen
January 04, 2001, 23:22
If ya'll are interested in the history of this picture, I was in Bosnia on SFOR 5 when it happened. This is the leg of a Blackhawk crewchief. Another crew chief was mounting an M60 on a pedestal mount that had been put in the arms room by someone else. He rode the bolt forward and apparently a round was on the bolt face and as anyone who's fired an M60 knows, if one rides the bolt forward on a round... BANG!!! The guy who accidently shot him was court martialled we were told due to the fact that he failed to clear the weapon coming out of the arms room. I know it's a good idea to always clear your weapon, but IMHO, if they did indeed court martial the shooter, I think they over reacted due to the fact that one could pretty well assume a weapon coming out of an arms room had been cleared going in-- in accordance with the standing orders of the theatre... still he should have cleared it... this incident caused me and all my men to endure a complete recertification session on clearing our personal weapons---army policy, something happens, ie... one guy beats his gay roommate to death at Ft Bragg and 700,000 soldiers have to have training on the subject forever more... it's the Clinton army.. knee jerk reactions for all. I guess I may have given a little more info than necessary. As an aside, we had these posted in front of all of the clearing barrels and had to pull them all down when someone pointed out that CNN was visiting and we might not want this picture to show up on the news..

Bruce J
January 04, 2001, 23:22
Ouch.

I hope this guy remembered what mother always said.. remember to wear your clean underwear in case you get shot out on the range..


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Bruce J
Kansas City
BruceJ@fnfal.com

[This message has been edited by Bruce J (edited January 04, 2001).]

Shazbat
January 04, 2001, 23:37
Cripes!

I would call that a 'one shot stop' for sure....

awp101
January 04, 2001, 23:38
Having sat through more of that crap than I care to admit, I have to correct tominkileen on 1 thing. Kid was beaten to death here at Campbell. Over a fight lost by the guy who killed him, and his sexual preference was considered the prime motive after it was disclosed that the killer was hassled by his "buddies" about losing a fight to a "fag". Suddenly DA has "sensing session" teams talking to a random sampling of the post (determined by your ssn, guess whose got picked???) to find out if intolerance was actively being encouraged!

Sorry abount this rant, it probably belongs in it's own thread, but as a lower enlisted (E-4P) it burns my ass to see my post drug through this over and over. I know tominkileen was just using that as an example so I'm not hacked at him.

The kicker to the whole ordeal? The officers were cleared of any blame because there weren't even enough LTs to be PLs and therefore the CO couldn't have known. So guess who got the blame? The 1SG. The entire brigade was short NCOs (same as officers) but that was no excuse. Now a man with probably close to 20-25yrs infantry experience is screwed because he was supposed to intuitvely know what the officers had to be told for them to be as guilty as he was made out to be.

Sorry, I'm feeling much better now.

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awp101
Air Assault!
Maybe life is like a ride on the freeway, dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way-The Offspring

[This message has been edited by awp101 (edited January 04, 2001).]

Farmer from Hell
January 05, 2001, 00:09
Glad they saved the sack.
But I bet he is even gladder.

FfH

BushMeister
January 05, 2001, 00:20
Thank God that poor guy wasn't hit in the head, or the "Pvt. Johnson".

As a non-military guy myself, I don't think the general public understands how dangerous military service can be- considering helicopters (and those lovely Ospreys) crashing, transports sinking, live-fire exercises, and, of course, incidents such as the above. At the very least, the guy who caused the M60 to fire should have had it pointed in a "safe" direction at all times. Unless this round went through a wall...

BD9398
January 05, 2001, 00:37
Muzzle control, muzzle control, muzzle control...whew!

Thanks for the reminder! 7.62 is a wicked round!

Did the poor guy ever walk again?

Bill

gcc
January 05, 2001, 01:01
Met a dude at a gun show who had recovered from a 7.62x39 wound in his lower leg. Similar to these pictures, the entry wound in the front was small, but he had lost half the tissue behind the femur where the bullet exited. So that leg looked like skin over bone. I didn't ask him what happened. He didn't look old enough to have been in Nam. Probably got hit in Compton.

camoguy
January 05, 2001, 01:09
I know most civies,heck even some soldiers don't know just how destructive bullets and explosives are. Been watching all those Rambo movies were the guy gets blown up and shot 6 times and still takes out the bad guys. If they understood the danger all our men and women in uniform face every day in training,working and fighting with these weapons..maybe they would get the respect they deserve. or maybe recuitment would just go down.... Ok off my soapbox.

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joetentpeg
January 05, 2001, 02:29
Based on my experience (4 yrs 11B 2nd Ranger Bn., 3 years SF Medic 5th SFGA), I will say this about that (above). The bullet entered and followed the track of the femur bone; this is typical of high velocity missile wounds. No tissue has been excised, or more correctly, debrided; this is obvious by the appearance of the tissue inside the wound; notice that the tissue that is not red but dark appears to be burnt? That burnt-appearing tissue is exactly that; burnt. When a high velocity missile hits an object its kinetic energy is deposited to the object. Do the math; the greater the mass, or more importantly in missile wounds, the higher the velocity, the more kinetic energy. In the case of tissue, the kinetic energy dump is transmitted as a shock wave. The shock wave's extension, perpendicular to the wound tract, is exponentially larger than the diameter of the missile. All tissue that is touched by the shock wave is killed. There is a demarcation between vital tissue and dead. All dead tissue must be debrided (removed). The wound is packed with gauze and left partially open for 10-14 days. The packing is changed daily and observed for the drainage's color, odor and consistency to guard against infection (psuedomonas, clostridia, etc.). This is called Delayed Primary Closure. After the 10-14 day period the wound is then closed. It may be considered a tough recovery, infection notwithstanding, as the tissue (especially muscle) debrided cannot be replaced. For more information, check out "Emergency War Surgery."

awp101abn's explanation aside, as for the notion that the shooter should have had his muzzle pointed in a safe direction, I have this to say: in live-fire infantry fire and maneuver there is no safe direction. Units must communicate with each other and be coordinated with precision. And Live-fire is dangerous enough without an enemy returning fire. Moving as a team with individual fire and movement coordinated as a much larger unit (be it squad, platoon or company, etc.) requires rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal. This is why this training is so important. The soldiers involved must be accustomed to live-fire shooting, moving and communicating as a unit to decrease (not eliminating; impossible) the risk of fratricide ("friendly" fire - it isn't the bullet that has your name on it that is worrisome, it is the one that says "To Whom It May Concern"). In my tenure as a Ranger Infantryman there were several incidents of men killed and wounded in live-fire training, and we were a well-trained, cohesive, highly professional unit. The fact is, it is a dangerous occupation, even without actual active ground combat. Rommel said, "the best welfare of the men is first-class training." And there is another appropriate axiom: "more sweat in training, less blood in combat."

Joe



[This message has been edited by joetentpeg (edited January 05, 2001).]

toaster
January 05, 2001, 03:24
Originally posted by Rivrrat:
Note to self, always point the business end of the rifle down range.

also, it's a nice reminder for...
1- the true toughness of the nature of firearm wounds that might have to be treated in a survival or revolutionary setting. how many militia units are equipped to handle this?
2- all the 'tough' guys who are always crowing about taking up arms for the least thing...THIS is what happens when you play for keeps...that is why i try to stress to the utmost how serious the decision to call to arms really is.

thanks for the post, and keep them coming. maybe seeing this kind of stuff will make people think twice about the power and responsability that safe firearm use commands.

load up, ruck up, move out...toaster

intelligent thought now saves having this kind of wound later

Mr pogo
January 05, 2001, 04:03
If the guys lucky he will keep his leg. If hes really lucky he will have enough muscle/ligaments left to control his knee after debriment. Either way looks like muscle and skin grafts in his future http://www.fnfal.com/forums/frown.gif

He may also get whirlpool therapy to help prevent infection and regenerate tissue before doing grafts. Depending on his plastic surgeons course of treatment, could be weeks or months of this.

Hopefully they will not be forced to rod his leg or amputate, devils choice between the 2 if it comes to that. I feel for this guy, cuts close to home.

EMDII
January 05, 2001, 10:46
As a CO of several units, grunt and armor, I can tell you I'd have had the ass of several folks: the original returnee of the loaded weapon, the armorer, the shooter, and the I/C. The Army places a high priority on responsibility (or at least that's what I learned). Ultimately, the shooter had the weapon under his control at the time of firing, so he gets the hammer. Shooting a fellow soldier is unforgivable, and you better expect getting raked over the coals.

"Aw come on,sir you say? Negligence? "

Damn right- He could've killed somebody. In nearly thirty years of enlisted and commissioned service, I never assumed jack-$51t about the status of a weapon coming out of the arms room, out of the field, or off the range. (Sorry, TiK) Every time I cleared a range of tanks, it was my personal responsibility to ensure EVERY weapon (coax, M2, M256) was CLEARED and ELEVATED. Combat missions are NO EXCUSE for this kind of stupidity. Unless you're in an attack position, every RTB has a hot-pad where you off-load the weapon. This includes US Army helo bases. This was no accident, this was STUPID. Same for small arms ranges and RTBs from a mission. CLEAR and ELEVATE!

Don't EVER assume I handed you an unloaded weapon. Some poor GI killed my Uncle w/ an unloaded .45 in 1937. That was stupid too, right in the melon. My uncle should'nt have been downrange of the muzzle. The consequence for me? My Dad taught me weapons safety from an early age, that's what.

Remember COL. Cooper's 4 rules.

The military is a dangerous place. Never ASS-U-ME.

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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

VALMET
January 05, 2001, 12:25
There was a guy around here that was accidentaly shot in the knee with .50 BMG...and not only did he live but it didn't take his whole leg off!

FALPhil
January 05, 2001, 12:39
It's crap like this that sets me off. This kind of stuff doesn't need to happen.

I was at the DeKalb firing range one day when a couple of yahoos showed up and begin to unload their weapons from the cases. These @ssh01es had no muzzle control. Zip, zero, nada. The second time they swung a muzzle my way, I told them that I would shoot both of them dead and tell the cops inside that I was in fear for my life. They were pissed, but they got the message.

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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

awp101
January 05, 2001, 13:03
EMDII and Phil: Amen!
I can't beleive the armorer and the person who turned it in weren't crucified as well.

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awp101
Air Assault!
Maybe life is like a ride on the freeway, dodging bullets while you're trying to find your way-The Offspring

0302
January 05, 2001, 13:57
I remember an incident in okinawa were an M60 was being returned to the armory. the m60 was returned thru the armory window stock first. The gun was bumped against the window frame, the bolt slammed home, round fired, two dead marines. M60 should have been cleared of rounds and the bolt closed immediately after firing.

another marine killed during live fire assault training. the m60 tripod wasn't properly secured and the weapon was allowed to move around, placing a round in the back of a marine assaulting the objective, right thru the flak vest.

There are no excuses, just failure to follow safety procedures.

ElAlumno
January 10, 2001, 11:12
Tominkilleen said:

“Another crew chief was mounting an M60 on a pedestal mount that had been put in the arms room by someone else. He rode the bolt forward and apparently a round was on the bolt face and as anyone who's fired an M60 knows, if one rides the bolt forward on a round... BANG!!! “

Now correct me if I am wrong. The M60 fires from an OPEN bolt. So if the crew chief was “riding the bolt forward”, the gun would have been considered cocked. Was the gun stored in this manner?

EMDII
January 10, 2001, 15:08
Sounds as if (based on the info presented) that the weapon was stored with a round somehow in the feed tray over a closed bolt, or worse, in front of an open bolt. IF the C/C didn't clear the weapon (lift the feed tray cover, remove ammo source, lift feed tray, remove any brass/ammo) on draw, mounted, charged and let the bolt go forward (rode it?) then an AD results.

SEVERAL people scewed up this pooch.

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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

CC
January 10, 2001, 16:50
Accidents do and will happen. If many of these military jobs, were to be paid comencerate to the jobs of equal danger outside of the military, a private would be makeing a six figure income...CC

USMC 0341
January 10, 2001, 18:02
One other thing...

Since each of us has weapons of this or similar caliber in the house we have to remember how important safety with them is as well. This is the reason I allow myself to be compulsive about firearms safety. Yes I'm the only one who has access to my guns but I check the chamber when it comes out of the safe. Yes I just checked it before I set it down but I'll check it again when I pick it up. Yes I checked it before I put it in the case but I check it again when I bring it out. You get the picture.

As bad as the pictures above look, imagine that is your brother/friend/neighbor/wife/yourself and the only thing you can say is "Well I thought..."

The only Marines injured around me on the range during my time in the service were dead before they hit the ground so at least I never had to patch one of these up. I hope I never have to.

Let's all have fun but let us never forget the responsibility we carry.

-out-

[This message has been edited by USMC 0341 (edited January 10, 2001).]

JasoninNY
January 10, 2001, 21:26
ok i m a pussy. that is vile. i ve seen plenty of those types of pics before but that shit is always brutal. maybe it s my lack of being in "action" and actually seeing it. i do like seeing that stuff from time to time though, keeps my head on straight. good reality check.
i must say though i will not hesitate to inflict that type of wound multiple times on whoever tries to infringe on my rights.
as far as dealing with taht type of wound in the field it s called your fucked unless you ve got a base camp with serious medical suplies and someone to use them.