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View Full Version : OT Kalifornia.......sheesh!


Vulcan
June 27, 2002, 01:28
Check this out..........

http://dailynews.attbi.com/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=020626&cat=news&st=newscourtpledgedc

One athiest can get the pledge of allegiance taken out of all schools in 9 western states, but the 2nd amendment is archaic...

walzy
June 27, 2002, 03:31
i just about cryed when i heard this. i live 5mi. from elk grove where the arse hole lives. on the local news they showed his answering machine and he recieved death threats. an idea here lets send falsarge to him and brady. j/k

walzy

BD
June 27, 2002, 07:58
I will first say that I do not entirely agree with the ruling, but I must add this. This is America, the greatest country in the world. One of the many things that makes it great is the freedom to pick any religion one wants, or even none at all. The term "One nation, UNDER GOD" is a direct reference to God. Which god? I guess that depends on who is saying it. For those who do not believe in a god (Which our Constitution states is a right guarenteed to every US citizen.) , this forces one on them, no matter how small or insignificant the statement might be. Althogh I personally have no problem with the Pledge as is and although I believe our nation is one nation under God, I also believe that to keep the things in our country that are great, one must consider everyone. This even includes those who do not believe in a God.
This reminds me of a situation about ten years ago when I worked in a gas station. A customer was bithching about the town I was working in allowing Sunday liquor sales. I explained to him that I had no problem with it. The customer got extremely angary with me and said, or rather yelled "Young man you have a lot of growing up to do. Don't you understand that around here Sunday is a day to keep the Sabbath holy? You really have a lot of learning to do." I politely explained to him that in fact it is he that has the learning to do. I told him that this is America and if I choose to worship, or not worship, the Sabbath on Sunday it is my right. The customer said not a word and walked out of the store. I never heard from him again and believe it or not I lost that job shortly after this. To this day I am not sure if this exchange was the reason.

delta
June 27, 2002, 08:05
typical .......from the the land of fruits and nuts

I heard that one city is banning all coffee that is not "organicly grown"

Ricketts
June 27, 2002, 08:18
I don't agree with that ruling at all, and I also don't think that we should consider EVERYONE in policy, laws, or pledges. We are a country ruled on MAJORITY vote, and just because a very small minority does not like something, that previously mentioned MAJORITY should not be affected because these piss ants are bitching. If they don't like the 'Under God" reference, don't say the words, dammit!!:mad: :mad: :mad: This Political Correctness crap has gotten out of hand!!:mad: :mad:

hockeyfan_019
June 27, 2002, 08:20
Who said that guy's (expletive deleted) kid MUST say the pledge? It was very clear that anybody that did not agree may simply remain silent... Sounds like he wants to brainwash his kids to believe like he does, and keep them ignorent of the fact the rest of us have faith...

Baillieul
June 27, 2002, 08:22
This rulling was in accordance with the US constitution. The first ammendment prohibits state endorsement of religion. The words "under god" in a congresionally sanctioned passage show a clear endorsement of religion. I have never liked this version of the pledge, and have always felt uncomfortable about it. I am glad that the courts ahve finally stepped in to make the right decision.

This is a democracy where the majority rules, but the courts are in place to protect the rights of everyone, regardless of the voting block they represent.

Hopefully they will give the same treatment to the 2nd ammendment.

Alex

BD
June 27, 2002, 08:28
By saying a majority rules in a situation like this just does not make sense. A majority of Americans are Christians. Does this mean just because they are the majority, everyone must be a Christian because majority rules?
When I said a mostly agree with the ruling in my previous post I too think that if one does not want to say it, they can remain seated and silent. I do not agree that it should be mandated.

Baillieul
June 27, 2002, 08:32
The point in this case is that the pledge i nthe state of California is a mandated event each school day (it fullfills the patriotic requirement for the day). Just as the court has decided with prayer at football games, this is an endorsement of religion by a government agency.

Mad Dog 7.62
June 27, 2002, 08:41
Originally posted by Baillieul
Hopefully they will give the same treatment to the 2nd ammendment.

Alex

I'm sure the wonderful liberal socialist judges would be happy to give the same "treatment" to the Second Amendment if they get the chance....they would say it only applies to militias and uphold a outright ban on private firearms ownership. that's the way they think.

Mad Dog 7.62
June 27, 2002, 08:45
This was not an issue of anyone "having" to say anything, there is an interview with this jerk on the CNN website. He "used" his daughter to give standing to the case. She was never compelled to say the pledge nor did she have any problems because of not wanting to do so. He is an athiest who is actually ticked that currency says "In God We Trust"...this case was just easier for him to win. He is a piece of dog crap in my book.

Ricketts
June 27, 2002, 10:47
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this "majoity does not rule" logic would in essence void all elections because in that thought, the majority does not know what they want--and that thought is wrong. True, over 50% of the population didn't vote for the current president, but they didn't vote like that for a stretch here of Gore or Clinton. I stretch that because folks of this mindset are usually Democratic and liberal--which brings up another question. What in the world are you liberals doing on a pro gun board?

TheOtherChris
June 27, 2002, 10:59
Oh no!
The Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional. It too, mentions "Nature's God", our "Creator" and "divine Providence".

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the US constitution or the Bill of Rights. Amendment I was to prevent the establishment of a State religion. It does not require that all religions be ignored.

Michael Newdow has the right to say that he doesn't believe in God. His daughter has the right to abstain from the voluntary daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. I had two Jehova's Witnesses in my classes in elementary school that did that.

But the judge's stated rationale for holding for the plaintiff was in error. Jesus, Vishnu, Zeus, etc. are all considered gods by people somewhere. The only leg he has to stand on is possibly the "no god" reference and that creates even more problems because government is laden with a plethora of religious references and symbols.

Michael Newdow has the right to say what he wants.
I have the right to say that he can BITE ME.

Hambone_22345
June 27, 2002, 11:04
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY!!! IT'S A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC! THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

The Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights, which are the basis for all law in the United States, specifically list some absolute rights of people, and guarantees others not listed specifically.

In a democracy, the majority could vote that all people over 6 feet tall should be executed. In a democracy, that would be the law.

On the other hand, in our Constitutional Republic, the right to "Life" is specifically listed, and guaranteed, therefore, if 100% of voters voted to kill all people over 6 feet tall, it would still be an unconstitutional law, and void.

I know it's a stupid example, but change it to anything you can think of, and you'll soon see that the USA is NOT a democracy.

We have a representative branch and president that are elected by a vote of the people, and that is certainly based on democratic principles, but the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and overrides any "democratic" vote that violates the principles of the Constitution.
Rant over.

BKinzey
June 27, 2002, 11:53
"Under God," is not a part of the original pledge. Eisenhower had it added in 1954 during the Red Scare. I think it should be dropped.

vandal
June 27, 2002, 12:13
The first ammendment prohibits state endorsement of religion.

I guess you have a different version than I do. :rolleyes:

Big Johnson
June 27, 2002, 12:51
Kind of funny now isn't it? How we ranted and raved against the Godless communists for all those years, and now come to find out we're the Godless capitalists. I guess the Cold War was all about who gets the money after all...

Ratlord
June 27, 2002, 13:36
Originally posted by BD
By saying a majority rules in a situation like this just does not make sense. A majority of Americans are Christians. Does this mean just because they are the majority, everyone must be a Christian because majority rules?

Good point. The US is not a Democracy but rather it is a Republic. The majority does not rule alone. The majority rules under the law.

Other than that, I'd say that this ruling was a crock. The Pledge of Allegiance was written quite a while ago. I'm sure if one reads many of the documents which date back to the founding of the nation the reference to God will be all over the place. The reference to God in the Pledge has historical significance even if it does not have spiritual significance to those saying it.

The atheists here in Kalifornia are getting totally out of hand. Recently they tried to tear down a landmark close to where I live. The city had to sell one of its parks to a veterans group. It was a very good thing, though. They are turning it into a very beautiful war memorial.

riffraff
June 27, 2002, 22:12
Originally posted by Ratlord
The Pledge of Allegiance was written quite a while ago.And the "Under God" part wasn't added until the McCarthy era (1954) (The Pledge itself was written in 1892; Congress officially recognized it in 1942). Seems it was good enough without it prior to that, huh?


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes." -- James Feibleman

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -- Tom Wolfe

"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")


:D :D Let the frothing begin! :D :D