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kalashniKEV
December 11, 2017, 20:22
Gents,

I'm currently living a nightmare with a deal-gone-bad involving an Argy FAL (open ears, A1 type post).

The rifle was shipped to me uninsured and poorly packed... and sustained very heavy damage in transit.

Parts of the rifle made it outside the box- carry handle, barrel, charging handle, and rear sight- which is now missing.

Does anyone know where to obtain a Tall, Argentine Rear Sight aperture assembly?

Capt D
December 11, 2017, 21:05
Gents,

I'm currently living a nightmare with a deal-gone-bad involving an Argy FAL (open ears, A1 type post).

The rifle was shipped to me uninsured and poorly packed... and sustained very heavy damage in transit.

Parts of the rifle made it outside the box- carry handle, barrel, charging handle, and rear sight- which is now missing.

Does anyone know where to obtain a Tall, Argentine Rear Sight aperture assembly?

Extremely sorry to hear of your misfortune. To find the rear sight you seek, check with Gunplumber's ARS website at https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/store/store-fal-lower/store-fal-lower.html

You could also post a WTB ad in the marketplace here on the FILES and see what turns up. Best of luck in your search, hopefully you might get some recompense from the seller... that's bad biz...

kalashniKEV
December 11, 2017, 21:46
Thanks, I'll give it a shot!

Best of luck in your search, hopefully you might get some recompense from the seller... that's bad biz...

The seller initially said "too bad, not my fault, file a claim with UPS" and wanted nothing to do with the process. Later as he came to understand that the "contract" was between him and UPS, he would need to file the claim, and there was money involved, he started to become more interested.

As of my last communication, it is clear that his intent is to collect on the claim and leave me stuck with the damaged (destroyed, really) rifle.

I've never seen an FAL this wrecked- not even in a thrashed parts kit. the top cover is dented in the center like it was struck with an axe, preventing the bolt from charging... really bad stuff!

Also, least of my worries but there were several mags floating around in the box too chunking up the wood stock and grinding against the finish of what apparently once was a very nice rifle.

Really horrible... but almost bizarre stuff. (And yes, he is a member here)

Anyway, full report to follow if this ever gets to a resolution. It's been going on since September...

satexas
December 11, 2017, 21:48
I believe an Israeli HB rear sight is like an equivalent if you can't find the Argy. Gunbroker may help as well.

4markk
December 11, 2017, 23:18
I believe an Israeli HB rear sight is like an equivalent if you can't find the Argy. Gunbroker may help as well.

An Izzy LB rear site would be about three times the cost.

To the OP, you should post your experience with pics in reviews.

aezcur
December 12, 2017, 01:27
PM sent

I have parts that can help you.

Capt D
December 12, 2017, 02:44
...(And yes, he is a member here)...

Who is this m○therf□cker? Name-drop that asshat...the rest will take care of itself, of that, you can rest assured...

gunplumber
December 12, 2017, 08:32
An Izzy LB rear site would be about three times the cost.
.

Umm - I have izzy (hebrew marked) and argy (line, or blank), 600m tall same price at $50
Should I raise the price on the izzy to $150? I have only 2 of the Argy and about a dozen of the Izzy, so I thought about raising the price of the Argy.

https://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/store/store-fal-izzy/store-fal-izzy-rearsight-assy.jpg

receiver covers, a plenty.

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 11:09
To the OP, you should post your experience with pics in reviews.

I will do that, along with our full correspondence... which will likely make you sick to read.

Seller has a habit of firing off one sentence, blame shifting, exclamatory phrases- and has generously offered to refund me upon return of the damaged rifle... but only IF UPS is willing to pay him over ~$1.2K on an uninsured package that was obviously packed for shipment by a crackhead:

"Yes sir of the full amount is paid I will trade you the damaged rifle for it even tho it wasn't me who threw it off the truck. Fair?"

Back to rear sights...

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 11:34
Umm - I have izzy (hebrew marked) and argy (line, or blank), 600m tall same price at $50

...

receiver covers, a plenty.

I may take you up on a Line sight- I guess I will need the slider, button/spring, and stop pin.

I've done some tappy hammer work on the top cover- carrier can move, and move without binding now. It's now a cold hammer banged veteran of the just-drop-it-in-a-box war. (Might need one of those too...)

lew
December 12, 2017, 11:51
By all means, expose this turd ball of a seller so at least no one else gets sucked into a shitshow. Good luck getting the rifle back into shape.

4markk
December 12, 2017, 18:15
Umm - I have izzy (hebrew marked) and argy (line, or blank), 600m tall same price at $50
Should I raise the price on the izzy to $150? I have only 2 of the Argy and about a dozen of the Izzy, so I thought about raising the price of the Argy.

receiver covers, a plenty.

I stand corrected .... I've never seen a dozen LB Izzy Rear Sights in one area. Even picking through the crates at Armscorp, never came across more than a few LB sights.

Invictus77
December 12, 2017, 18:31
To the OP, you should post your experience with pics in reviews.

^^^This!

OP, you have only one feedback which is from Capt D and I know for dang sure he did not do this type of transaction. You have left no feedback for others?

If what you are saying in this thread is all true (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), then yes, please share the details for others to consider for future reference.

gunplumber
December 12, 2017, 18:41
I stand corrected .... I've never seen a dozen LB Izzy Rear Sights in one area. Even picking through the crates at Armscorp, never came across more than a few LB sights.

Well, if someone has heavy barrel to trade, that would be nice - it's a pain machining the notch so they'll fit on a heavy barrel slide.

4markk
December 12, 2017, 18:43
WEll, if someone has hevay barrel to trade, that would be nice - it's a pain machining the notch so they'll fit on a heavy barrel slide.

How many HB rear sight lowers do you need?

meltblown
December 12, 2017, 18:45
I may take you up on a Line sight- I guess I will need the slider, button/spring, and stop pin.

I've done some tappy hammer work on the top cover- carrier can move, and move without binding now. It's now a cold hammer banged veteran of the just-drop-it-in-a-box war. (Might need one of those too...)

Get the tombstone sight with the line. Seems like you have more than a couple of offers. Did you take pics of the damage?

4markk
December 12, 2017, 18:51
OP, you have only one feedback which is from Capt D and I know for dang sure he did not do this type of transaction. You have left no feedback for others?

If what you are saying in this thread is all true (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), then yes, please share the details for others to consider for future reference.

I can understand not rushing to ostracize someone until it plays out. I purchased a barrel from someone over a year ago and he used scotch tape on the tube caps. Tube arrived just fine, only missing one cap (and everything that was inside the tube). No insurance.

So, who is to blame. The shipper who didn't do due diligence in packing it properly or the buyer who didn't insist on and pay for insurance? Are they equally to blame? Or is one more culpable than the other?

What if the poorly packaged package never arrived at all after being placed in shipping channels. Does that change the blame? Why?

gunplumber
December 12, 2017, 19:15
How many HB rear sight lowers do you need?

depends on price, I was going to get 20+ in a large trade with another vendor, but that seems to have stalled.

What I really want are the push buttons - I could use 50+ of those.

meltblown
December 12, 2017, 19:21
I can understand not rushing to ostracize someone until it plays out. I purchased a barrel from someone over a year ago and he used scotch tape on the tube caps. Tube arrived just fine, only missing one cap (and everything that was inside the tube). No insurance.

So, who is to blame. The shipper who didn't do due diligence in packing it properly or the buyer who didn't insist on and pay for insurance? Are they equally to blame? Or is one more culpable than the other?

What if the poorly packaged package never arrived at all after being placed in shipping channels. Does that change the blame? Why?

Interesting. I bought a 12 inch or so AR500 steel plate with the frame gusset things from Jake's. It was basically just thrown in a flat rate box with zero packing and stuff. Literally a 20 lb or so plate put in a box and the lids taped shut. Got it and figured the PO had taped up the box somewhere in the journey. The gussets were there with no plate. So Jake probably realized he screwed up and sent me another plate.

Personally, when I make a deal, I do not consider that my custody is over until it is delivered as advertised. In the real world you reject the shipment and send it back. It is up to the sender to make sure the merchandise arrives in good condition. If damaged in transit, then the shipper has to file the claim.

Amazes me that people send money up front and sellers think once the merchandise gets to the shipper that oh well I'm done.

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 20:10
If what you are saying in this thread is all true (and I have no reason to doubt that it is), then yes, please share the details for others to consider for future reference.

.....

I will do that, along with our full correspondence... which will likely make you sick to read.


I'm just waiting for the conclusion... hopefully before Christmas.

4markk
December 12, 2017, 20:27
Interesting. I bought a 12 inch or so AR500 steel plate with the frame gusset things from Jake's. It was basically just thrown in a flat rate box with zero packing and stuff. Literally a 20 lb or so plate put in a box and the lids taped shut. Got it and figured the PO had taped up the box somewhere in the journey. The gussets were there with no plate. So Jake probably realized he screwed up and sent me another plate.

Personally, when I make a deal, I do not consider that my custody is over until it is delivered as advertised. In the real world you reject the shipment and send it back. It is up to the sender to make sure the merchandise arrives in good condition. If damaged in transit, then the shipper has to file the claim.

Amazes me that people send money up front and sellers think once the merchandise gets to the shipper that oh well I'm done.

Even more interesting, your position is that you as the seller assume all risk for the shipment. Even for the conduct of the common carrier. Even if the buyer refuses to purchase insurance when offered.

That is an extraordinary business model. I hope it is never tested.

My position is, as long as a shipper made a reasonable attempt to properly safeguard the items in proper packaging, the shipper's responsibility ends when placed in shipping channels. It then falls on the common carriers to properly safeguard the package. They realize that sometime they fail, so they offer insurance to safeguard against such loss. Even though the insurance doesn't alleviate them of the responsibility to properly handle, a reasonable person could assume that failure is not a rare occurrence and a prudent person would safeguard against such loss.

It is also my position, that the responsibility shifts if the shipper fails to properly pack the items. "Properly pack" is what a reasonable person would assume.

Invictus77
December 12, 2017, 20:49
On the flip side of this coin...

I opened a package of a dozen or so books today that I bought from member canman.

Each book was individually double or triple wrapped in Saran Wrap. Box packed tightly. Gaps filled with bubble packing. Box edges triple taped. USPS would have had to run over the box with the truck to damage the goods, and may have broken a truck wheel if they tried. I'm not sure how much time he spent packing it up, but it took me a half hour and a pocket knife to get it un-packaged. Well done Sir :bow:

Today I packed up a small USPS flat rate box to mail out with an FAL receiver wrench and a barrel vise. The wrench is wrapped in a bubble envelope. The vise is separated into two pieces, individually wrapped and taped. The bolts are jammed in the middle of the wrapping with no wiggle room.

Yes both of these examples are possibly overkill, but it is definitively the shippers responsibility to pack things up well protected for shipping.

meltblown
December 12, 2017, 21:07
Even more interesting, your position is that you as the seller assume all risk for the shipment. Even for the conduct of the common carrier. Even if the buyer refuses to purchase insurance when offered.

That is an extraordinary business model. I hope it is never tested.

My position is, as long as a shipper made a reasonable attempt to properly safeguard the items in proper packaging, the shipper's responsibility ends when placed in shipping channels. It then falls on the common carriers to properly safeguard the package. They realize that sometime they fail, so they offer insurance to safeguard against such loss. Even though the insurance doesn't alleviate them of the responsibility to properly handle, a reasonable person could assume that failure is not a rare occurrence and a prudent person would safeguard against such loss.

It is also my position, that the responsibility shifts if the shipper fails to properly pack the items. "Properly pack" is what a reasonable person would assume.

It's tested everyday in the real world. If I, as a buyer, pay the shipping and choose the carrier then yes. If me as a seller choose the carrier and pay shipping as I generally sell my stuff, then I should be insuring it. You made a contract. Business model yeah tell me about selling stuff.

You basically reaffirm what someone else says and try to spin it. You send me some shit and don't pack it right you will get it back in the same condition, don't refund, I'll talk shit about you forever:D And you will be on a bucket list to pay me back when I'm an old man and got time to settle scores.

hkshooter
December 12, 2017, 21:28
Contact Lance7104, IIRC he has a large quantity.

Lance. Nice fella. Don't see him around here much anymore.

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 21:46
Even more interesting, your position is that you as the seller assume all risk for the shipment.

...

That is an extraordinary business model. I hope it is never tested.

I'm not really looking to sidetrack, but the American Business Model needs no "test," as it is in operation daily.

When you are selling something, it is your responsibility to deliver that item satisfactorily, at the agreed upon price, new (if it's new), or in the condition that is agreed upon as part of the sale you are trying to accomplish.

It doesn't matter if you consider it to be cheap or expensive, or if heavy damage devalues it by a large percentage of your sale price, or a small percentage.

If I sell you something like... a vintage Rolex GMT Master, and I "gets mah cash," drop it in a box/ bubble envelope/ etc, and tell you something like: (quoting directly from my exchange)

...it has a big ass dent I didn't do that! Not my Fault, I paid for good shipping!

...when, like, the package arrives and is open to the atmosphere, the bezel is missing, crystal is scratched to hell, and the bracelet is bent (a basically analogous situation to this one) you may feel right to say, "not my problem, I didn't insure the package, plus I got my cash," but the responsibility for insurance is on the seller of the item, to ensure that he gets his item "SOLD."

That is his objective.

It may feel good to say, "I got my cash, go take your sorry self to UPS and file a claim-" but guess what? The recipient has no contact with the shipper, and can not file a claim. It's 100% on the sellers end, and any claim paid (I've heard some very low max number for an uninsured package) will be written on a check to the seller.

Why is this?

Because it's 100% on the seller's end of the deal.

This is the way it works in the real world.

meltblown
December 12, 2017, 21:55
That is his objective.

It may feel good to say, "I got my cash, go take your sorry self to UPS and file a claim-" but guess what? The recipient has no contact with the shipper, and can not file a claim. It's 100% on the sellers end, and any claim paid (I've heard some very low max number for an uninsured package) will be written on a check to the seller.

Why is this?

Because it's 100% on the seller's end of the deal.

This is the way it works in the real world.

Send it back to him and pay shipping and reject. I agree with you but don't fiddle fart here looking for sympathy. There are people here that I won't deal with. After about $20K in transactions and you will figure it out. Lick your wounds or whatever. Enjoy life. welcome to the FAL life:uhoh: Choose wisely. The mistakes make you smarter.

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 22:05
My position is, as long as a shipper made a reasonable attempt to properly safeguard the items in proper packaging, the shipper's responsibility ends when placed in shipping channels.

Actually, your "position" would be correct in American business if a Bill of Lading was involved between the Shipper/ Seller and the Carrier- essentially transferring custody of the shipment and accountability/responsibility into the hands of the Carrier.

Most Carriers will agree to this- it costs a good bit more, but it transfers Risk onto them from the Shipper/ Seller.

When the goods are delivered in the agreed upon quantity and condition, at the agreed upon time, the recipient of the shipment would sign the Bill of Lading indicating all is well, and at that time it would be on him.

Legally equivalent substitutes for the Bill of Lading include- nothing.

kalashniKEV
December 12, 2017, 22:09
Send it back to him and pay shipping and reject.

With this person, who is now salivating at the idea of trying to skim off the claim, that would 100%, without-a-doubt, result in losing my money and the rifle.

This guy will just bounce off into the desert, probably change his name, and scam somebody else on here next time he needs to sell something for spare cash. I will publish when it is resolved, as I have said.

I agree with you but don't fiddle fart here looking for sympathy.

I came here looking for a compatible rear sight, not sympathy.

Anyway, I think I found it.

The discussion has been stimulating.

Later.

hkshooter
December 12, 2017, 22:19
I'm looking forward to hear who the shipper is. Will be watching.

maxaks
December 12, 2017, 22:57
I'm looking forward to hear who the shipper is. Will be watching.

This.

4markk
December 12, 2017, 23:25
I'm not really looking to sidetrack, but the American Business Model needs no "test," as it is in operation daily.

When you are selling something, it is your responsibility to deliver that item satisfactorily, at the agreed upon price, new (if it's new), or in the condition that is agreed upon as part of the sale you are trying to accomplish.

[]

This is the way it works in the real world.


"American Business Model" as you call it, is actually the Uniform Commercial Code.

http://barnespc.com/news-risk-loss-shipments-governed-ucc.php

TO summarize, the UCC breaks down the sale/shipments into types of contracts. Most notably, a 1) Shipment Contract, or a 2) Destination Contract.

The method of delivery determines when ownership of the goods occur. A Shipment Contract requires the seller to relinquish the goods to a common carrier and ownership of those goods falls on the buyer when they are placed in shipping channels. In a Destination Contract, the seller is responsible for the goods until they are accepted by the buyer (UCC 2-401, 2-503).

Now here is the twist, IN THE REAL WORLD (as in the world regulated by the US Court system), when the type of contract is not specified, a Shipment Contract is assumed and the buyer bears the brunt if goods in transit are damaged or lost (Windows, Inc. v. Jordan Panel Systems Corp., 177 F.3d 114 (2nd Cir. 1999)).

A key point on a Shipment Contract, is it assumes "seller makes a good-faith and reasonable arrangement with a carrier that takes the nature of the goods into account". Which means it must be packaged in manner to ensure safe delivery under reasonable conditions.

Actually, your "position" would be correct in American business if a Bill of Lading was involved between the Shipper/ Seller and the Carrier- essentially transferring custody of the shipment and accountability/responsibility into the hands of the Carrier.
[/U]

A Bill of Lading is only a receipt of goods for shipping. It can be used in either contract type. You may be thinking about FOB, which is a form of a Destination Contract (UCC 2-319), which would be the opposite of my example above.

There are also other characteristics that can be used to determine contract type.

gunplumber
December 13, 2017, 08:07
It's tested everyday in the real world. If I, as a buyer, pay the shipping and choose the carrier then yes. If me as a seller choose the carrier and pay shipping as I generally sell my stuff, then I should be insuring it.

"American Business Model" as you call it, is actually the Uniform Commercial Code.

It's far more complicated than that, and in commerce law is identified every step of the way in the contract. "Freight on Board" is probably the most common point of transferring liability. The seller has to get it to the shipper. Historically, it was the stevedores loading the ship. Once it passed the gunnels ("freight is on board"), it was the ship captain's problem. I learned a little more about this shipping pallets of parts and heavy equipment to other vendors after the EAI warehouse liquidation. What happens if the forklift operator drops a pallet during loading or unloading? It can go either way - did I hire the fork? Or is delivery "to the curb" like with my Home Depot cinder block order?

Now we have multiple steps. Even a transfer from UPS to USPS for delivery (I'm interested to see how a loss would be covered there). I first experienced this with Airborne Express. Remember them? Shipping a Desert Eagle to Alaska. They got it to Alaska, then slapped a USPS label on it for delivery. That's when I switched to FedEx.

I had a customer claim something was missing from his box. The customer had refused to pay for insurance above the amount I included with flat rate shipping, and his alleged missing items were the two most expensive parts in the box, exceeding the insurance coverage. The customer had lied to me about the shipment several times, and I should have just told him to go f-ck himself, but I replaced his allegedly missing parts out of my pocket - despite my belief that he was lying about the missing parts as well. What that experience did was motivate me to explicitly state my rejection of liability and transfer of risk.

I do not ship your package. I arrange shipment on your behalf. I arrange with FedEx, because I can drop off 6 miles away. UPS is 30 miles away.

I do not insure your package. I purchase the insurance on your behalf. You want a different shipper or to purchase your own insurance - no problem, just e-mail me a collect label and I'll put it on the box. I expressly reject any responsibility for anything, after it leaves my hands.

I also reject any responsibility for anything while it is in my hands. I do not insure your work while it is here. Anything you send here is entirely at your own risk. Fire, flood, theft - make sure it is covered under your homeowners policy, 'cause it ain't covered on mine. "At your own risk".

USPS, I don't insure. I use delivery confirmation to cover my ass, but after a considerable amount of time doing probability and cost calculations, I determined that I could lose about every 50th package and pay the loss out of pocket, for the same price as insuring those 50 packages. And it's been hundreds of packages and several years since USPS lost anything, or damaged beyond repair.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/wp/eai/eai-truck.jpg

4markk
December 13, 2017, 10:57
All the legalese aside, to the OP, from the information given in this thread so far, in my unlearned opinion, I believe the seller to be responsible to make good on your account.

Because even though you have a "Shipment Contract", the seller is in breach of that contract, in that seller DID NOT make a good-faith and reasonable arrangement with a carrier that took the nature of the goods into account. Which means it was NOT packaged in a manner that ensured safe delivery under reasonable conditions.

"that took the nature of the goods into account" = heavy items have to be properly secured in a container that is rated to hold their weight under normal material handling conditions

gunplumber
December 13, 2017, 11:00
All the legalese aside, to the OP, from the information given in this thread so far, in my unlearned opinion, I believe the seller to be responsible to make good on your account.

Because even though you have a "Shipment Contract", the seller is in breach of that contract, in that seller DID NOT make a good-faith and reasonable arrangement with a carrier that took the nature of the goods into account. Which means it was NOT packaged in a manner that ensured safe delivery under reasonable conditions.

This

I was following the tangent on shipping in general. There is always the good faith thing, and this appears to be negligence.

meltblown
December 13, 2017, 11:20
This

I was following the tangent on shipping in general. There is always the good faith thing, and this appears to be negligence.

Persactly. I sell about $2m a year in filters internationally and domestically. I am quite familiar with incoterms. FCA is the new FOB. My biggest heartburn comes when I am shipping prepaid or prepaid add and the freight gets damaged from double stacking etc. The customer will accept the shipment without noting the damage to the carrier upon delivery. They then call me and say it was damaged. I have no recourse with the freight line due to them accepting the shipment. Guess who takes the hit?

My customers value me because of good faith in my business dealings.

4markk
December 13, 2017, 11:41
Just to clarify one more item on the legal tangent (sorry I have a character flaw where I always triple tap, bullets are cheap, where as replacing body armor is expensive) .....

Refusing delivery on a "Shipment Contract" doesn't really improve your legal standing. In that according to the law, the receiver owned the item when it was placed in shipping channels. All you are doing is giving a gift to the seller. This does not mean that you shouldn't note damage to the package to the common carrier, because that will support your claim against them or the seller.

Whereas on a "Destination Contract" a signature is usually required as evidence of "acceptance" by the receiver. It is that "acceptance" that actually transfers ownership to the receiver.

So from this "learning event", always ask for insurance commensurate with the "provable" value of the items. Because if there is a problem, you get the resources of the common carrier operating on your behalf to resolve the issue.