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View Full Version : Is this a Belgian 50.00 Kit


Edgartwib
December 08, 2017, 19:33
Hi all, new guy here with a parts kit Im wondering about.
I literally just picked this up, all I was told it was matching numbers and I was showed a proof on the barrel which indicates it to be Belgian of origin. The only other markings on the barrel is the serial # that I have found thus far. The FH is unmarked. I also found a diamond around a 2 on the lower which I have found is also a Belgian proof. SRA lower numbers matches barrel and bolt carrier. I really have not found any other proofs. I am going soak it in degreaser and clean it real good and inspect it as I go it has reminants of whatever grease it was stored in. It looks to be in great shape overall with a clean sharp looking barrel.
I have been searching the forum and Google and there is not much about Belgian parts kits that are not G1s or early STGs. and alot of pics are now blocked due to photobuckets money grab.
From the location of the serial number on the lower I have been looking to identify it and this looks to be a genuine FN rifle to me. If I am mistaken please enlighten me.

What type of receiver was this originally on?

Is this a type 50.00 that was cut up? if not what is it?

Thanks guys I am happy to be here and anxious to get this built.
E



https://i.imgur.com/ZGSyrH9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yY1d12J.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/b2hT2Rh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IGmARZE.jpg
Belgian proof on barrel
https://i.imgur.com/7z8w9Gq.jpg
G1 lot number base plate and this stamped on the side. I have not found anything about this marking for my searches.
https://i.imgur.com/UWiQwsF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ytbqxCd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0j1j56d.jpg
diamond around 2 on lower

nwobhm
December 08, 2017, 20:24
<2> = FN date code 1972

lockjaw
December 08, 2017, 21:01
Looks like a type II lower? Cool!

I thought the short soldered gas tube was an Austrian thing? Th Belgians did this as well?

J. Armstrong
December 08, 2017, 22:00
Well, it certainly appears to be Belgian, at least the parts so proofed, and it is most definitely a 50.00. I, too, am unaware of FN using the short gas tube. Perhaps done after the rifle was demilled ? Previous owner ?

What is the provenance of this rifle ?

Edgartwib
December 08, 2017, 22:46
Perhaps done after the rifle was demilled ? Previous owner ?

What is the provenance of this rifle ?

From my talking with the previous owner he knew nothing about the kit. I suspect it was inherited. So all provenance is lost. The kit came in several old bags and everything still had a coat with old grease/cosmoline in the corners. A part of the original upper is still attached to the barrel. Your guess is as good as mine.

Tattered
December 08, 2017, 22:58
The gas tube looks like it was cut at an uneven angle. Possibly torched? Hard to say based on pics. That barrel is certainly worth some money.

mp
December 08, 2017, 23:13
I was mad I missed this one on the CMP Forums. Nice snag.

J. Armstrong
December 09, 2017, 08:51
Definitely a good find.

Keep us informed as you progress with the build, should end up a very handsome rifle !

pl521
December 09, 2017, 09:21
That's a very nice kit! Build it on a LMT type 2 upper receiver. I think the kit is FN made for South African. Any proof marks on carrier, bolt, selector or is the lower marked with RA/ZA prefix serial number on the right side?

Edgartwib
December 09, 2017, 10:10
Thanks for the info guys! I am excited to get this started. I want to get it built as correct as possible. My buddie offered me a Imbel type III receiver yesterday but I think I want to get a type II.

What would you suggest I look for? A new production upper or an older Type II on the used market?

As of now Im leaning towards a new Coonan Type II and have the serial # matched to the kit. Their website states they are only making type II receivers and doing custom serial #s until the end of the year.
E

J. Armstrong
December 09, 2017, 10:44
Thanks for the info guys! I am excited to get this started. I want to get it built as correct as possible. My buddie offered me a Imbel type III receiver yesterday but I think I want to get a type II.

What would you suggest I look for? A new production upper or an older Type II on the used market?

As of now Im leaning towards a new Coonan Type II and have the serial # matched to the kit. Their website states they are only making type II receivers and doing custom serial #s until the end of the year.
E

This is probably the most practical and cost effective approach. More desirable would be an early DSA, but they are thin on the ground, of course.

Edgartwib
December 09, 2017, 10:56
That's a very nice kit! Build it on a LMT type 2 upper receiver. I think the kit is FN made for South African. Any proof marks on carrier, bolt, selector or is the lower marked with RA/ZA prefix serial number on the right side?

No markings what so ever other than the proofs and serial# I mentioned already. Ill look it over good as I clean it up. A matching numbers FN Rhodie kit would be cool, but unlikely from my readings about Rhodesian Parts kits. I recently saw some Rhodie G3 kits and was tempted but were in rough condition.

Thanks for mentioning the LMT type II that is what I my buddie mentioned. I have since found a few threads about the early DSA uppers made by LMT. I might bide my time and keep my eyes peeled for one. I am on no immediate timeframe.

E

hkshooter
December 09, 2017, 11:12
No markings what so ever other than the proofs and serial# I mentioned already. Ill look it over good as I clean it up. A matching numbers FN Rhodie kit would be cool, but unlikely from my readings about Rhodesian Parts kits. I recently saw some Rhodie G3 kits and was tempted but were in rough condition.

Thanks for mentioning the LMT type II that is what I my buddie mentioned. I have since found a few threads about the early DSA uppers made by LMT. I might bide my time and keep my eyes peeled for one. I am on no immediate timeframe.

E

Good choice. While you are biding your time, save up $1k. When you finally find a nice T2 early DSA you have to be ready to jump, instantly. They don't sit around.
This way you'll have more than enough to cover the price, no matter what.

Another avenue is watching for complete rifles on the receiver you want. Buy the rifle, year it down, sell the kit, keep the receiver. This actually is more likely to happen than finding bare receiver.
Good luck. And keep us informed.

raexcct2
December 09, 2017, 13:37
Good choice. While you are biding your time, save up $1k. When you finally find a nice T2 early DSA you have to be ready to jump, instantly. They don't sit around.
This way you'll have more than enough to cover the price, no matter what.

Another avenue is watching for complete rifles on the receiver you want. Buy the rifle, year it down, sell the kit, keep the receiver. This actually is more likely to happen than finding bare receiver.
Good luck. And keep us informed.

This is exactly what I did. I found a complete rifle here in the Marketplace for $1000 with an early DSA LMT Type 2 receiver, sanitized South African lower receiver , and Imbel barrel. All I wanted was the receiver but at that price I couldn’t resist.

Edgartwib
December 10, 2017, 16:31
The gas tube looks like it was cut at an uneven angle.

Yes it was cut at an uneven angle the angle is sharp with burs still...
https://i.imgur.com/f3pvuGS.jpg

Edgartwib
December 10, 2017, 16:54
Any proof marks on carrier, bolt, selector or is the lower marked with RA/ZA prefix serial number on the right side?

I found these proofs inside the bolt carrier, there is another diamond with a 2 inside, a crosshair stamp and capital T or 1.
https://i.imgur.com/P6PPrSW.jpg

The bolt itself was marked on three sides.

The top of the bolt is serialized. True matching #s kit!
It also has an arrow with a chevron? on top.
https://i.imgur.com/fjIKtfE.jpg

Left side is marked once with what looks like a off stamped '8'
https://i.imgur.com/y5WFUXu.jpg

The right side is marked 3 times with a P and a inveted T compressed together, the number '3'. and a offset stamp that is not readable.
https://i.imgur.com/xh2dC6R.jpg

Edgartwib
December 10, 2017, 19:10
I found several neat markings on the barrel. The first looks to be a cross flag stamp at about 12:00 under the gas tube.
https://i.imgur.com/F5wLDyq.jpg

The second is also located at 12:00 less than an inch from where the barrel screws into the receiver. With a lower case 'l' or a 1 and S.
If it is in fact a lower case 'l' I have found from googling that it is a date code for 1973 which flows with the other date codes I have found on the rifle.

I also found the S proof was from Belgian "Controller of Proof"- Daenen Charles

The cross flag? proof excites me. Maybe it is a EU contract gun to Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweeden??? (I looked up countries that had cross flags) Im sure someone has seen this before. Maybe it is not a cross flag at all. Please enlighten me.

mp
December 10, 2017, 20:52
SARCO still has nic FN chrome lined gas tubes for a nice price.

4markk
December 10, 2017, 22:09
As of now Im leaning towards a new Coonan Type II and have the serial # matched to the kit. Their website states they are only making type II receivers and doing custom serial #s until the end of the year.
E

This is what I'd do. This is your last chance to get a matching serial # upper receiver for the foreseeable future, maybe ever. I'd go Coonan Type II with matching serial #.

Either the receiver works or it doesn't. The LMT doesn't get you anything more in ability than a Coonan Type II. They have just shown to have very few problems in building on them. The same could be said for the Coonan Type II. But the LMT's go for a premium, the Coonan's don't. YMMV.


Yes it was cut at an uneven angle the angle is sharp with burs still...


Looks like someone didn't know how to get the gas tube off, so they cut it. Probably to put a barrel vise on the barrel. I agree with the other poster that you can get a chrome lined gas tube from SARCO.

embatp
December 10, 2017, 22:12
More pics

HighRatMaster
December 11, 2017, 00:02
Looks like a Libyan to me.

Edgartwib
December 11, 2017, 10:57
I forgot to add the second pic of the barrel proofs I found last night so here it is.
https://i.imgur.com/QIfsWzl.jpg

Also located at 12:00 less than an inch from where the barrel screws into the receiver. With a lower case 'l' or a 1 and S.
If it is in fact a lower case 'l' I have found from googling that it is a Belgian date inspector proof for 1973 which flows with the other date codes I have found on the rifle <2> 1972 on bolt carrier and hammer.
https://i.imgur.com/QIfsWzl.jpg

I also found the S proof was from Belgian "Controller of Proof"- Daenen Charles

Edgartwib
December 11, 2017, 12:21
Looks like a Libyan to me.

Thanks for the lead I found some good info here from this PDF here 'Identifying & Tracing the FN Herstal FAL Rifle'
http://armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ARES-Field-Guide-No.-1-Identifying-Tracing-the-FN-Herstal-FAL-Rifle.pdf

At the bottom of page 9 the top of 10 in the pdf it states
"In 1972, Belgian authorities expressed concern regarding this duplication of serial numbers, and FN Herstal quickly introduced an additional serial number marking. This second serial number is located on the right-hand side of the upper receiver, and reflects the cumulative production of FAL rifles to the date of manufacture. Thus, on rifles produced from 1972 and bearing two serial number markings, the serial number on the left-hand side indicates the rifle’s
numerical place in a country-specific numbering scheme,((my only number to work with 201230)) whilst the serial number on the right-hand side indicates the rifle’s place within the total FAL rifle production of FNH..."
The right hand serial number is lost to time. The number on the left "201230" matching for the kit which indicates it was the 201230 rifle for the contract to whichever country order my rifle originally.

From further reading of some of the numbers for documented Libyan rifles don't match up. If you go to page 29 Annexe 4 – Serial numbers of example FAL rifles documented in the MENA region since 2011. (I cold not copy the table)
It shows a Libyan contract rifle made in 1975 with a left side serial number of 162074...Does not quite line up with a 1972-73 rifle with 201230...


More neat info pertaining to my rifle, on page 16, it states "In the early 1960s, FN Herstal identified an area of possible weakness in the receiver and reinforced it by truncating the lightening cuts. The resulting Type II receiver was introduced in 1962 and was probably in production through 1973. In 1973, facing the need to reduce production costs, FN Herstal introduced the Type III receiver. Single, mean-width planes replaced the earlier lightening cuts. Just prior to the introduction of the Type III receiver, FN Herstal had produced one million FAL rifles"
I found this info cool. it puts my rifle right in the 1000000 FN Serial # range. It also puts my rifle as one of the last runs of type II uppers before the switch to type III.


Maybe the link I found (http://armamentresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ARES-Field-Guide-No.-1-Identifying-Tracing-the-FN-Herstal-FAL-Rifle.pdf) should become a sticky link. Its a wealth of info for Belgian FN built rifles...Thanks to HighRatMaster he sent me in the right direction.

Ill keep cleaning it and looking for more proofs or possible identifiers. For example I am sure there are a few pictures somewhere of the 1,000,000th built FAL? Maybe it was in the same contract as mine?

Edgartwib
December 13, 2017, 12:18
Ding Ding Ding I think I found the contract. Bear with me here...

My throry is this rifle/kit was one of the last Belgian made type II FALs sent to Brazil in 1973 to fulfill the FN contract stating that Brazil must use 15-20% Belgian parts as Brazil got their FAL production up and running. Apparently part of the % from Belgium came as complete rifles. I have since found a Perron arrow (Belgian proof) on the receiver stub.
https://i.imgur.com/n7dFSuC.jpg

Now for my FN Imbel connection. I found this pic from one of 'desert fox's posts from 2014 asking about a Imbel bolt with Belgian Perron proof marks.
https://i.imgur.com/SFvF9oX.jpg This was exciting because this was only 17000 and change off from my serial numbered kit, plus the number stamps looked the same.

I started seaching for a Imbel Belgian connection and it looks like I found the jackpot. On the Imbel Serial # list spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WB8H3KykED83pSUWmmJinDwNSKf_0MvnMZYOnnegojc/edit#gid=0

I found that 'HighRatMaster' had lower 204648. In the comments it states that it had a Belgian made Type II lower. Which is only 3418 off from my kit!
I think I found as conclusive of evidence as im going to about the originality of my rifle. If someone sees errors in my deciphering the provenance please enlighten me.
This has been a fun quest over the last several days.

I have also been soaking the kit in degreaser and overall I believe I have got about 90% of the old cosmoline. The kit overall is a beaut! If i had to guess I would say this was a rack gun not used much if at any.

1911Ron
December 13, 2017, 14:38
Very cool, congrats! I think you are right on getting a TypeII receiver and matching the serial # to the rifle, enjoy!

HighRatMaster
December 13, 2017, 22:36
Definitely a reasonable theory but one thing I would point out is the serial # is in the Belgian location, Brazil numbers were on the drivers side, but as anything FAL "never say they never did that".

:fal:

def90
December 14, 2017, 00:26
Libyan would have a para style rear sight.. plus the serial number range is off.

Cool kit either way.

One thing to consider is how it got here. Look at what imports we have received over the years.. A lot of South American Imbels, a lot of G1s, a lot of StGs, a lot of random African stuff. Kit is too nice to be one of the African imports, I could see the Imbel theory, they did buy a number of Belgian produced parts and rifles before building their own.. Then there is the odd small lot imports.. Or maybe this was from a commercially imported rifle that was demilled at some point..