PDA

View Full Version : Pre-Ban Argentine rifle with Belgian markings?


kiddsf
November 22, 2017, 02:42
Just picked up a Preban Armscorp Argentine rifle, S/N 00420 on all parts (yes, I know... 420 bruh).
While disassembling and cleaning the gun I notice the bolt has a dual proof stamps, one Belgian and one Argentine, making this bolt a Belgian bolt.

Is this normal?
I guess they only do this for Commercial export rifles?

Also, does the 'A' stamp mean the bolt has a production date of 1997?
('97 for a Pre-ban gun?)
How about the '6 inside a square' stamp? What does it mean?

How about the 'X' stamp on the barrel?
Seems like it was done redundantly twice.

Please educate me!
Thank you

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4557/26800104369_5a322bf4ed_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4539/26800102239_84bf4a72b2_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4581/26800100859_e2befd858a_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/26800099289_7ea81a3508_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4565/26800105699_4c1a2bbae8_b.jpg

nwobhm
November 22, 2017, 04:41
Bolt is date coded 56'. That is an earier style bolt. Double proofs are because FN supplied parts to the contractors.


H* = Woit Christophe = FN Controller 1938-1968

lostmybearing
November 22, 2017, 06:42
Just to add to what nwobhm said: FN provided parts to FMAP at the start of liscenced production by the Argentines. It appears that nos parts from the '50's sat around the factory until the rifle in question was built. I have a dual marked bolt and carrier just like yours. The marks on your chamber and receiver are the Argentine proof mark. I don't remember what it's called. The stamping represents a rectangular monument with a flag flying from a flagpole on top of it.

AGG
November 22, 2017, 08:45
Congratulations--- presume this is a Silver Spring import--- does it have the Argentine crest on the right lower receiver??? :)

Tony

kiddsf
November 22, 2017, 11:01
Bolt is date coded 56'. That is an earier style bolt. Double proofs are because FN supplied parts to the contractors.
H* = Woit Christophe = FN Controller 1938-1968

Just to add to what nwobhm said: FN provided parts to FMAP at the start of liscenced production by the Argentines. It appears that nos parts from the '50's sat around the factory until the rifle in question was built. I have a dual marked bolt and carrier just like yours. The marks on your chamber and receiver are the Argentine proof mark. I don't remember what it's called. The stamping represents a rectangular monument with a flag flying from a flagpole on top of it.


Thank you all for the information.

How about the 'X' mark on the barrel?
It seems like it was done twice, and I would like to know what it means.

Congratulations--- presume this is a Silver Spring import--- does it have the Argentine crest on the right lower receiver??? :)


Indeed, this is an Armscorp, Silver Spring, MD Pre-Ban Argentine standard 21" rifle.
There is a "Double Arrow(upward pointing)" stamp on the left side of the lower receiver, at the corner near the buttstock.
Is that the "Argentine Crest" you are talking about?

ftierson
November 22, 2017, 11:14
Very nice photos... :)

Forrest

J. Armstrong
November 22, 2017, 17:39
Very nice photos... :)

Forrest

This +1. my photo-efforts never look anywhere near that good :(

meltblown
November 22, 2017, 21:23
Nice FAL. Interesting thread FM is all I know

embatp
November 22, 2017, 23:36
I had a Belgian bolt in an all matching argy kit....you could tell the number had been wiped and restamped....

kiddsf
November 23, 2017, 01:21
I had a Belgian bolt in an all matching argy kit....you could tell the number had been wiped and restamped....
Was it a commercial gun parts kit or a military gun parts kit?
I would like to know if they use Belgian parts for their military gun, like their commercial guns.

How can you tell if the parts have been wiped and restamped?
Do you mind posting a picture?

I wonder if my bolt was restamped or an old part used for commercial guns...:confused:

nwobhm
November 23, 2017, 04:54
Your bolt doesn't look scrubbed. All metric contractors used FN parts at some point in their production. Your gun was built with some old military leftovers. Not a bad thing, just how they probably got rid of rejects, overstocked, outdated parts.

YMMV

base704
November 23, 2017, 05:05
Very nice photos... :)

Forrest

I agree...:bow:
Would like to see the rest of the rifle.

FALonious
November 23, 2017, 07:05
Everything looks......well....perfect. Exactly as it should be. You have, from what you've shown so far, a very fine Argy example. :bow: It looks to be very low round count also.

By chance, did you get the box and all the other goodies with it?....Icing on the cake if so.

nwobhm
November 23, 2017, 07:34
Everything looks......well....perfect. Exactly as it should be. You have, from what you've shown so far, a very fine Argy example. :bow: It looks to be very low round count also.

By chance, did you get the box and all the other goodies with it?....Icing on the cake if so.


.....and is this the same rifle that has been making the rounds at the DFW shows with a "seller" not looking to sell? Just wanted to carry it around the show....:rofl:.....

J. Armstrong
November 23, 2017, 08:36
Was it a commercial gun parts kit or a military gun parts kit?
I would like to know if they use Belgian parts for their military gun, like their commercial guns.

How can you tell if the parts have been wiped and restamped?
Do you mind posting a picture?

I wonder if my bolt was restamped or an old part used for commercial guns...:confused:

I believe the general consensus is that the Belgian parts would simple have been mixed into inventory without being segregated, and would have been pulled for use at random. Very late FMAP military production went to the closed ear barrel and two piece extractor, so early belgian bolts still in inventory after that change would have then been used only on the commercial builds and perhaps as spares for earlier rifles. Prior to this it was simply chance what the bolt was used in.

A reserialled bolt or carrier will have a the serial restamped in a depression where the old serial was milled off

VAplinker
November 23, 2017, 08:45
https://i.imgur.com/3SWhBre.png

kiddsf
November 23, 2017, 11:49
Thank you everyone for the information.

I am definitely proud of this addition to my 'beginner level' FAL collection.
I finally started to collect FAL rifles again after 6yrs of 'dormant'.

I just got this rifle on Tuesday, and only finished cleaning and oiling her up today.

This Pre-Ban Argentine 21" standard rifle has open ears and tall sights.
It was imported by Armscorp, and seems to be in NOS condition.
However, it was probably test fired at the factory as there are minor 'brass kisses'(painted finish still intact) near the ejection port area.
The bolt face, carrier, and chamber are all pretty clean. The gas block is very slightly dirtied, and with minor carbon build up on the gas piston head.
After looking through everything with detail inspection, seems like everything, minus the Belgian bolt, are all Argentine production parts.

To be honest, I am pretty happy to hear that the Belgian bolt used on this rifle isn't a restamped bolt, but a NOS Belgian bolt.
I would prefer if the bolt is also Argentine, but the double proofs is certainly interesting.

Sorry to disappoint, but currently I don't have any pictures of the externals as I have been busy doing family things and, of course, shopping....

To make it up for my 'lack of discipline', here are a few pictures of the rifle that the seller took though...

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4567/38602025621_f01e3b09d3_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/38602025051_63cc51466e_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4530/37713860955_f2a90ec450_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4517/38602043661_e8e4ed0219_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4535/38602046111_23607aebcf_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4531/37713866935_61d031643e_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4548/37884924064_201edf867d_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4568/37713865705_d97f313304_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4522/37713864855_3035b9eba8_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4547/38602034221_8e44dd4f52_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4570/37713863485_ac2c466372_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4534/38602030511_b6198cd062_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4524/37713861885_11ba14bbae_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4558/38602024751_4eaa0d9e21_b.jpg

nwobhm
November 23, 2017, 12:31
Trigger is FN too. Dated 56'

kiddsf
November 23, 2017, 12:49
Wow, I didn’t know that is a Belgian marking
Edit: uh, that marking is the same as the one on the Bolt...

meltblown
November 23, 2017, 13:01
Nice score box and all:beer:

J. Armstrong
November 23, 2017, 23:32
I've always had a soft spot for the Argentine FALs ( well, FSL to them :D ). I think they have been consistently undervalued in the past but little by little they are catching up to the market. That one is a keeper :beer:

SteelGreyML
November 24, 2017, 19:52
Nice rifle. Great photos.

thedrickel
November 25, 2017, 01:44
I've always had a soft spot for the Argentine FALs ( well, FSL to them :D ). I think they have been consistently undervalued in the past but little by little they are catching up to the market. That one is a keeper :beer:

Same here. I picked up a nice FAP a few years ago for $2500 knowing that was likely top of the market (I did get a great deal on a few dozen mags as well) at the time. But frankly I didn't GAF, the market will catch up soon enough and I didn't want to miss the opportunity. It was a local seller that I know personally, and I think that is an underrated value of going to gun shows - networking.

AGG
November 26, 2017, 17:40
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4567/38602025621_f01e3b09d3_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/38602025051_63cc51466e_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4530/37713860955_f2a90ec450_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4517/38602043661_e8e4ed0219_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4535/38602046111_23607aebcf_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4531/37713866935_61d031643e_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4548/37884924064_201edf867d_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4568/37713865705_d97f313304_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4522/37713864855_3035b9eba8_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4547/38602034221_8e44dd4f52_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4570/37713863485_ac2c466372_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4534/38602030511_b6198cd062_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4524/37713861885_11ba14bbae_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4558/38602024751_4eaa0d9e21_b.jpg

Most excellent--- thanks for the great pics--- no crest on the lower right receiver--- did this come with the green manual??? :)

Tony

gn
December 21, 2017, 00:29
Well now I know why you did have the funds to buy the SAR 4800.

Raggedwhole!
December 21, 2017, 00:42
Very nice.

Nuttz
December 21, 2017, 08:47
Very very nice!!!

SAFN49
December 22, 2017, 10:12
I had an Argentinian FN49 with the serial number 0420 that would have made a nice pair.

1911Ron
December 22, 2017, 17:36
Beautiful riFal! :love: