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View Full Version : Need help with an old Rhodie.. **Update, it's together**


tothemax
November 15, 2017, 20:18
Hey guys. Its been a while since I have posted here but I need some help. I have an old rhodie fal that was part of a build kit I bought years ago. I finally got around to putting it together and I ran into a 2 issues.

First it seems to be overtimed. I don't have the proper tools to align the sights but I can see that the front sight is off to the left. If I loosen the barrel is there a way to correct this? Shims? Is there a way to time it without the tool?

Second is the locking shoulder. My buddy used to have the locking shoulder tool but he lost it. Is there anything else I can use to measure what sized shoulder I will need without the tool? Or is there a place I can borrow / rent it from?

I have the go / no go gauges, receiver wrench and the bolt take down tool. Nothing else.

Thanks for your help.:fal:

Rhodie FAL https://imgur.com/gallery/mfRio

Rhodie FAL 2 https://imgur.com/gallery/ub33d

denny
November 15, 2017, 20:28
drill bit diameters to measure locking shoulder.
Denny

tothemax
November 15, 2017, 20:29
drill bit diameters to measure locking shoulder.
Denny

Thats a good idea. I will have to look up and see what drill bit is close to that size.

lew
November 15, 2017, 21:31
drill bit diameters to measure locking shoulder.
Denny

More expensive, but easier method: Starrett hole gauge and a set of calibers.

It's likely that the barrel will simply need to be wrenched to the proper position and no shims will be required.

308/223shooter
November 15, 2017, 22:23
More expensive, but easier method: Starrett hole gauge and a set of calibers.

It's likely that the barrel will simply need to be wrenched to the proper position and no shims will be required.

Depends on who's receiver you're building on. DSA? Imbel? Coonan? Century? IS the barrel Inch or Metric?

tothemax
November 15, 2017, 22:24
DSA - Metric

308/223shooter
November 15, 2017, 22:57
DSA - Metric

You may need a DSA barrel, funny how their barrels time on their receivers. Aside from that option, a shim would be a less costly choice. How far of is it?
And to time it, I use the Ratas timing rods. You could also use a laser bore sight if you have the lower installed and the rear sight centered.

tothemax
November 15, 2017, 23:01
Ok. It's off by a few degrees. Not much at all

308/223shooter
November 15, 2017, 23:10
Ok. It's off by a few degrees. Not much at all

A inch barrel shim should work. You'll need to trim the two inner tabs from the hand guard ring, or use a inch ring if you have one.

tothemax
November 15, 2017, 23:11
Where is the best place to buy a shim?

OLDMANPBK
November 16, 2017, 02:43
Here's a great Rhodie build thread if you haven't found it yet.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387858
Gunplumber has the shims you need.
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/store/store-fal-barrel/store-fal-barrel.html
Here's another link that may help.
http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-April01-assembly.html

tothemax
November 16, 2017, 21:21
Thanks. I have been looking at easy ways to time the barrel in my shop. I have tools, vice, etc. Any suggestions on how to do it as "cheap" as possible?

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 11:06
Best picture I could take of the overtime issue.

https://i.imgur.com/25O3tSI.jpg

lew
November 17, 2017, 12:14
I don't think a shim would be needed. I've turned a barrel past that (didn't know my own strength :biggrin:) and backed it up until it timed correctly. It's still in place with plenty of tension on the barrel threads to hold it there.

Chuck it in a barrel vise and use a receiver wrench to back it up the degree or two needed. Get a set of alignment tools to aid the process. If you don't have your own, I'm sure a Files member would be willing to loan them. If, after backing it up, the barrel is loose, then you can use a shim.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 12:20
I don't think a shim would be needed. I've turned a barrel past that (didn't know my own strength :biggrin:) and backed it up until it timed correctly. It's still in place with plenty of tension on the barrel threads to hold it there.

Chuck it in a barrel vise and use a receiver wrench to back it up the degree or two needed. Get a set of alignment tools to aid the process. If you don't have your own, I'm sure a Files member would be willing to loan them. If, after backing it up, the barrel is loose, then you can use a shim.

Thanks. I don't own a set. I only have the receiver wrench. I also need a locking shoulder sizing tool.

I was hoping to borrow/rent them as this is my only FAL build I plan on doing. Doesn't make sense to throw down that kind of money just for this. Only reason I have the wrench is because my buddy has a few FAL tools leftover from building kits in the 90's.

jam762
November 17, 2017, 12:20
^^^ It just needs to come back a little.

308/223shooter
November 17, 2017, 12:45
In your pic, is that hand tight, or torqued with a wrench?

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 12:47
Torqued.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 12:49
I don't recall to what lb but it was tight.

308/223shooter
November 17, 2017, 12:58
You just may be able to back it off a bit then. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done it, as long as it's tight enough to be over 100 foot pounds. I've had rifals brought to me with barrels loose enough to move by hand, typically Century or newb builds, where the loktite didn't hold. And no, I don't advise using Loktite, just that I've seen it often enough.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 13:00
Okay. I will remove the barrel (maybe today) and see how tight it is. I may still get the smallest shim just in case. Curious why no locktite?

Thanks

meltblown
November 17, 2017, 13:03
Take you 2 .22 caliber cleaning rods. Put one in the handguard screw hole and tape the other to the receiver flat. Then make them align with each other noting the play in the screw hole rod as you back it off. IIRC GP said that 80 lbs of torque was sufficient.

308/223shooter
November 17, 2017, 13:06
Take you 2 .22 caliber cleaning rods. Put one in the handguard screw hole and tape the other to the receiver flat. Then make them align with each other noting the play in the screw hole rod as you back it off. IIRC GP said that 80 lbs of torque was sufficient.

Guess I'm getting them too tight then?

meltblown
November 17, 2017, 13:15
Guess I'm getting them too tight then?

Nah, I think the range is up to 150lbs. I got a couple that had a cheater pipe used with the a 3/4" drive breaker bar.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 13:43
Okay. Do you have a picture of the cleaning rod trick? I think I know what your talking about.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 14:25
Ok. I got the barrel loose. It was pretty dang tight. Took a little cheater pipe to get it loose.

G3isMe
November 17, 2017, 20:46
Ok. I got the barrel loose. It was pretty dang tight. Took a little cheater pipe to get it loose.

You most likely didn't need to remove the barrel or loosen it all the way. Simply just backing it off a few degrees and then rechecking the timing with whatever method you are using would be the best option IMHO.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 20:50
You most likely didn't need to remove the barrel, just backing it off a few degrees and then check the timing with whatever method you are using.

Well I went to re-tighten the barrel and realign and it isn't torqued anywhere close to 80 when its aligned. Its definitely past hand tight. I didn't have an adapter from 1/2 to 3/4 for my torque wrench or I would have checked.

I could throw a little red loctite on it and it would be secure but one of the other members said thats not advisable?

308/223shooter
November 17, 2017, 20:52
Loktite doesn't stay locked tight when it gets hot.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 20:52
I also tried the 22 cal cleaning rod trick to align the receiver and FSB and I still had a problem getting it dead on. It was still off a bit. I wish the barrel had timing marks on it that matched up with the receiver. That would make life easy.

G3isMe
November 17, 2017, 20:56
Yeah if that's the case, yes it needs to corrected. You want to do one of a couple things. You can peen the barrel shoulder a little bit. Not my first choice but if done correctly it works. My recommendation would be if it times several degrees past TDC I would use a shim.

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 20:56
Loktite doesn't stay locked tight when it gets hot.

Red loctite is good to 450, rocksett is good to 2000. I have both. How hot does a gun get when shooting? I know thats subjective but if you just plinking I cant imagine it gets that hot. Especially on a piston gun.

G3isMe
November 17, 2017, 20:57
For timing I don't use the rod method I use a dial or digital angle finder across the top of the receiver and compared to across the top of the site ears. Critics will say the ears may not be true but I would guess there isn't as much as there certainly is in eyeballing two rods.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387858

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 20:59
Something like this ? https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Finder-Protractor-Protracter-Finding/dp/B01FOQK82Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1510970333&sr=8-4&keywords=angle+dial+indicator

Edit, Just saw your thread link. Thanks

meltblown
November 17, 2017, 21:16
I also tried the 22 cal cleaning rod trick to align the receiver and FSB and I still had a problem getting it dead on. It was still off a bit. I wish the barrel had timing marks on it that matched up with the receiver. That would make life easy.

I've done it both ways with a level and rods. If the barrel is over timing it needs a shim. Get some shim stock and cut you a little disc with a pair of scissors. Use a compass to scribe it. I used a pipe nipple ground sharp to make the center hole and cut the OD.

G3isMe
November 17, 2017, 21:26
... I used a pipe nipple ground sharp to make the center hole and cut the OD.

That is an amazing idea. I wish you would have told me that earlier. I tried sharpening a socket with little success. The pipe nipple is a stellar idea. I will be sharpening one of those this weekend. Thanks again for sharing this one. ..... This is the best little nugget I have gleaned from the Fal Files in weeks..... :biggrin:

tothemax
November 17, 2017, 21:28
Why not just buy shims instead of making them?

308/223shooter
November 17, 2017, 21:31
Red loctite is good to 450, rocksett is good to 2000. I have both. How hot does a gun get when shooting? I know thats subjective but if you just plinking I cant imagine it gets that hot. Especially on a piston gun.

It gets hot enough, after a couple mags I saw one develope a wamdering zero. Turned out the barrel had been loktited with the red, and you could twist tje barrel for and aft by the hand guards. And yes, it was a Century built R1A1. We had to use a barrel shim and replace the locking shoulder. He still has it I believe.

G3isMe
November 17, 2017, 22:52
Why not just buy shims instead of making them?

I like to be able to make one as I need it That's the only reason for me. I hate waiting on parts when I'm in the middle of a build.

tothemax
November 18, 2017, 14:56
I like to be able to make one as I need it That's the only reason for me. I hate waiting on parts when I'm in the middle of a build.

Copy. Just figured it was easy to have a handful of them sitting in a drawer.

I don't plan on building anymore so I'm trying to do this one as cheap as possible.

tothemax
November 23, 2017, 20:33
I have read a few threads on timing the barrel using a laser bore sighter. I have one of those but I am a little confused on how they are getting that accomplished. I get using the two rods and making sure they are parallel. Last time I tried that it looked like they were close but when looking through the sites, they looked off to me. Maybe I am being ultra picky and I am psyching myself out.

jam762
November 23, 2017, 21:15
I don't plan on building anymore so I'm trying to do this one as cheap as possible.

Ha!:wink:

tothemax
November 23, 2017, 21:18
Ha!:wink:

I don't. Kits are too spendy. I will just buy a completed rifle next go around if I decide to get a PARA.

tothemax
December 08, 2017, 13:06
Well I got it together today thanks to the help of 308/223Shooter.

Timing looks to be spot on and locking shoulder installed and it passes the go no go check. Next up I have to take it out to the range.

This kit was bought on FAL files many years ago. It's a Rhodesian kit with unique markings. It has the you u marking on the lower receiver. It's covered up with paint now but if I recall that was a rare marking to find on Rhodesian kits as they usually scratch that off in case the rifle was captured. That way the rifle couldn't be traced back to SA.

Thomas
December 08, 2017, 15:23
Is the hand guard ring on the barrel???

If not, you must remove the barrel again.

tothemax
December 08, 2017, 16:36
Yes it's on

tothemax
December 11, 2017, 12:51
Does anyone have any info on the UM marking on certain rhodie lowers? I used to have a website bookmarked but I lost it.

From what I remember it was South African imported rifles but most of them scratched off the Insignia so if they were captured no one knew where they came from.

enbloc8
December 20, 2017, 22:08
Does anyone have any info on the UM marking on certain rhodie lowers? I used to have a website bookmarked but I lost it.

From what I remember it was South African imported rifles but most of them scratched off the Insignia so if they were captured no one knew where they came from.

The M-within-U mark identified South African government (military?) property, and was applied to both foreign-made and domestic arms. Since Rhodesia was under UN sanction at the time, weapons supplied to Rhodesia had any markings traceable to South Africa removed...even the proof marks.

In later years, either South Africa ceased being concerned about deniability, or the Rhodesians were receiving additional supplies under the table, because U-M marked South African lowers and other parts (like buttstocks) of Rhodesian background do turn up.

tothemax
December 20, 2017, 22:46
The M-within-U mark identified South African government (military?) property, and was applied to both foreign-made and domestic arms. Since Rhodesia was under UN sanction at the time, weapons supplied to Rhodesia had any markings traceable to South Africa removed...even the proof marks.

In later years, either South Africa ceased being concerned about deniability, or the Rhodesians were receiving additional supplies under the table, because U-M marked South African lowers and other parts (like buttstocks) of Rhodesian background do turn up.

Thanks. I Just couldn't recall the specifics on it.