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View Full Version : 7.62 FAL and be REPREEZENTIN-or 5.56 like everybody else?


hemcon9
November 10, 2017, 16:23
Looking for opinions on a hypothetical:
SWIM has his hat in the ring for a contract gig in a certain unincorporated U.S. territory in the Northwestern Caribbean.

It's a subcontract for an infamous letter agency. Part of the deal is you must supply your own weapons and ammo- a police type duty rig and perhaps a long gun.

The threat is described as "light" (yeah, they all are- until they're not). SWIM has never seen a contract where you were expected to supply your own kit.

SWIM knows that he should be the grey man and pack up a hohum AR and call it a day. That said, SWIM knows that 5.56 sucks on intermediate barrier penetration, while 7.62x51 perforates cars and trucks like shit through a goose.

So, if you were SWIM would you go grey or would you be inclined to give back-handed props to the files by taking your favorite FAL?
Spare no offense, I'll pass on your wisdom to SWIM.

And I promise to never again begin a sentence with a conjunction or use the term SWIM.

pistolero1911
November 10, 2017, 16:41
If SWIM must supply his personal firearm and ammo, then let SWIM take his weapon of choice: be it a FAL or C96 broom handle Mauser with carbine stock.

notfrommt
November 10, 2017, 16:56
If SWIM don't need to carry that heavy shit around SWIM should be driving around with a belt fed.

MAINER
November 10, 2017, 17:02
Quote;
"And I promise to never again begin a sentence with a conjunction or use the term SWIM."

Thank you for that, and I intend to hold you to it! :p

Sorry, but I would go with the "grey" thing. Parts, ammo, mags, etc, likely to be much less problem if resupply warrants.
I would however be looking for the fancy new pew-pew ammo, M855A1?. Barring that, 62 gr. steel penetrator stuff does a decent job on auto's and light trucks. The miscreants driving armored Scooters there?

Depending on the job requirements, the "grey" thing will be much less cumbersome entering and exiting vechicles, etc. if mobility is an important consideration.
Also, much more ammo can be carted around without the need of a Burro or some such.

Additionally, said "grey thing", being much lighter, depending on configuration, is a bit faster "on the draw" if the situation gets sticky.

Of course, if the job is, " hold this position and let none pass", the old FAL and its .308 firepower would be a welcome companion.

The AR has done well for me since '65, but in the early days I generally had a Ma Duce handy if needed. Lot of comfort, but really heavy.
These days, a .177 air puffer handles my requirements, happy times.

meltblown
November 10, 2017, 17:22
I'm staying at the house.

hemcon9
November 10, 2017, 20:25
If SWIM must supply his personal firearm and ammo, then let SWIM take his weapon of choice: be it a FAL or C96 broom handle Mauser with carbine stock.

You're a man of excellent taste.
I'll pass that along. I like 96s but they don't handle very well-unless they're in the stock.

An old Luger carbine might be the shiznit, though.

hemcon9
November 10, 2017, 20:45
If it was a case of humping the FAL in a full on war rig, it would be staying home. Days of full heavy kit up and down muddy hillsides is pretty close to over.

From what I have been told so far, it sounds like a static gig with patrol activities in a compound type environment. Some mention was made of occasional convoy duty.

It sounds like weight and vehicle entry/exit concerns will be low. That's why I'm kinda leaning toward 7.62 and if you got to drag it around and look at it all day, might as well be something loaded with sexy Belgian curves.

D.Brown
November 10, 2017, 21:19
I would want 7.62 NATO. If I was concerned about being noticed for it, and knew I would be lugging it, I might be tempted to try a DPMS GII, or MSR-10. But, I would have to come to trust it first.

I must suggest a SCAR before a fal, as its lighter, shorter, more accurate.

NB I own a fal not a SCAR, but I am not wearing it every day either.

DB

John Crusher
November 10, 2017, 21:45
I'd go 14.5" AR and piston. Not your basic .223 , .308 .
If you need to hump then it won't hurt as bad.

D.Brown
November 11, 2017, 00:14
Three Letter Acronyms are not known for valuing assets, so much the less for the logistics and support of external assets.

So... task a group of friends to send mouthwash, Irish, and ammo. It won't all make it through the mail, but, some of it will. If they remember to send a new deck of cards and some board games, it won't hurt. Remember what it was like before the internet? Playing Munchkin is not a team building exercise, it is just a way of bridging a generation gap, really. Send those, who actually mail you shit, snail mail back.

On consideration, where your friend is heading, barrier or 800 yard shots won't be the order of the day. Get a six8 receiver set and magazines. Help him build it to his specs. Bring enough ammo that they look at you funny. Assume all that you bring is all you will get... or, bring 5.56 and bring enough for everyone.

If a rifle is needed, it might not be convenient, choose an optic wisely. Be ready for those other hours, when one was not on duty.

SWIM only has the one ass, have him look after it well. If he does not believe in what he is doing, no amount of money is worth it. Its not like this is an opportunity to make a difference.

DB

kwthor
November 11, 2017, 11:07
Three Letter Acronyms are not known for valuing assets, so much the less for the logistics and support of external assets.

So... task a group of friends to send mouthwash, Irish, and ammo. It won't all make it through the mail, but, some of it will. If they remember to send a new deck of cards and some board games, it won't hurt. Remember what it was like before the internet? Playing Munchkin is not a team building exercise, it is just a way of bridging a generation gap, really. Send those, who actually mail you shit, snail mail back.

On consideration, where your friend is heading, barrier or 800 yard shots won't be the order of the day. Get a six8 receiver set and magazines. Help him build it to his specs. Bring enough ammo that they look at you funny. Assume all that you bring is all you will get... or, bring 5.56 and bring enough for everyone.

If a rifle is needed, it might not be convenient, choose an optic wisely. Be ready for those other hours, when one was not on duty.

SWIM only has the one ass, have him look after it well. If he does not believe in what he is doing, no amount of money is worth it. Its not like this is an opportunity to make a difference.

DB

:bow:

Sig line worthy:

Bring enough ammo that they look at you funny.

If he does not believe in what he is doing, no amount of money is worth it.

Its not like this is an opportunity to make a difference.

Hebrew Battle Rifle
November 11, 2017, 11:26
Anybody that would serve a 3 letter entity other than U.S.A. is a turd and I hope that his weapons fail when he needs them most.

J. Armstrong
November 11, 2017, 11:46
Didn't see anything that implies this isn't a US alphabet "company". Of course, that may not make much difference !

I don't have enough of a resume' to give my opinion much merit, but I think I'd be leaning towards a SCAR in 7.62. An AR variant in 7.62 would be a little "grayer", though.

hemcon9
November 11, 2017, 14:27
Anybody that would serve a 3 letter entity other than U.S.A. is a turd and I hope that his weapons fail when he needs them most.

So would that put you in the AR column or the FAL column?
Your timing is impeccable btw. Thanks for the reminder.

I'll be toasting a couple of those Turds tonight, being the 11th day of the 11th month and all. Turds to be sure but brave, honorable and absent.

D.Brown
November 11, 2017, 15:52
SWIM, was based in Puerto Rico 20+ years ago.

My ex admits her advise is dated but she has the following recommendations:

1. Don't expect an abundance of English books, bring your Kindle.
2. Find an English speaking Dr. and determine where he earned his degree. Do this immediately, before you ever need to see one.
3. Ants, the ants are actually flightless stinging wasps. They bite to get a grip before stinging. Like other wasps, they can sting repeatedly. Have a plan, expect it to fail. So, also have your friends send ant killers.

DB

enbloc8
November 11, 2017, 17:56
As a mere civvie, I would say...don't bring "favorite" anything.

Bring something good enough for the job at hand, but that you're willing to lose, discard, or otherwise write off if needed, because you never know when that might happen.

I think of it this way: if you were shipping aboard a US Navy cruiser bound for the Pacific in 1942-43 (and some of us know how well our cruisers fared at places like Savo Island and Guadalcanal), would you bring along a family heirloom, or stick to what the Navy issued you?

D.Brown
November 12, 2017, 03:09
SWIM is not bound for the Pacific in 1942.

Rereading my post, yes, I contributed to this atmosphere. But it is hard to think of it as a vacation destination after a hurricane. When I offer advise I tend to lecture and be extremely pessimistic.

I hope the worst which is encountered is petty inconveniences. Perhaps a delay in the restoration of cable or internet services, while infrastructure is being rebuilt. Or the realization that once's apartment has screens in the windows, which are necessary, but no glass because it is not thought to be needed.

DB

hemcon9
November 12, 2017, 17:47
I appreciate the advice and opinions- especially the ant warning.
If the contract gets off the ground, I might get some photos posted of the rare PR variant FAL.

fnogger
November 13, 2017, 09:05
My biggest concern would be bringing BACK into the country whatever you took out of it.


So, I'd go "disposable" or at least "easy and cheap to replace". So if you really want 762x51, get an AR10 of some type.

D.Brown
November 13, 2017, 09:37
fnogger,

It might be on US soil.

hemcon9,

fnogger still has a valid point. I would not want to travel through a New York airport as an external asset. If the locals raise a stink, and they have, an external asset might have to face the expense of fighting the gun related prosecution.

Edited: Travelers have made efforts to comply with federal law, and TSA requirements. Even so, airline personnel, have called the locals about hi-cap magazine and pistols, with predictable results.

Not yet aware of a case, involving an transient evil black rifle violating the safe act. Then one would be fighting state law and a possible felony conviction. Accepting a misdemeanor gun conviction plea deal is not an option for a contractor.

Invictus77
November 13, 2017, 10:07
My biggest concern would be bringing BACK into the country whatever you took out of it.


So, I'd go "disposable" or at least "easy and cheap to replace". So if you really want 762x51, get an AR10 of some type.

When you leave the US with a firearm for hunting or whatever, you must fill out "temporary export" documents which include the dates when you will bring it back. If not, you then become a firearm "exporter" which is a whole other can of worms. I would imagine the headaches probably rise exponentially if doing so with a semi-auto "black rifle".

lew
November 13, 2017, 11:49
So would that put you in the AR column or the FAL column?
Your timing is impeccable btw. Thanks for the reminder.

I'll be toasting a couple of those Turds tonight, being the 11th day of the 11th month and all. Turds to be sure but brave, honorable and absent.

Anyone in government service is part of the problem.

I don't see why a 5.56 rifle wouldn't work. He's not going to Syria for shit's sake.

hemcon9
November 14, 2017, 19:51
ANYONE in govt. service is part of the problem?
You should change your user name to LEWanni...

You sort of addressed the caliber preference question though.
7.62 breaks concrete building blocks, punches through cinder blocks and turns commercial cars and trucks into Swiss cheese.

PR has lots of the above. 5.56 is fabulous on thin skinned stuff that's alive but not so hot on building material and vehicles. In the very unlikely event that bad guys show up, they mostly drive up- in cars and trucks.

I wouldn't be real concerned with losing an FAL mutt. In the first place if a contractor fires a shot, it usually results in tons of paperwork and a plane ticket home. In PR, there is supposed to be a police force. I would assume as a U.S. territory any firearms used in a shooting would be seized and tagged as evidence until whatever passes for an investigation is completed.

The rifle in question IS a mutt, a really nice mutt, but a mutt nonetheless.
It's short, accurate and runs like a scalded dog but it's one that won't be missed if it saved my ass on the way out.

MistWolf
November 17, 2017, 09:08
Amateurs talk gear. Experts talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics. If you take a weapon that isn't fully supported at the end of the logistics train, you're handicapping yourself.

RG Coburn
November 17, 2017, 09:24
M1 Garand and a Colt .45 auto....

55bird
November 17, 2017, 09:35
Erik Prince would know, and about plausible deniability.

hemcon9
November 17, 2017, 10:03
Amateurs talk gear. Experts talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics. If you take a weapon that isn't fully supported at the end of the logistics train, you're handicapping yourself.

There is no logistics train for firearms, it's byo.
You got to dance with who brung ya, apparently.
The 1911 is going, the Garand is sitting this one out.

hemcon9
November 17, 2017, 10:16
Erik Prince would know, and about plausible deniability.

Whom I never met, but I did spend some time at his place in Moyock.
This is NOT supposed to be a hostile environment where everybody gets shown the front sight post.

It sounds more like a rainbows and unicorns job, aiding the displaced and those without resource.

lew
November 17, 2017, 12:19
The 1911 is going

Why handicap one's self with a low capacity, bulky handgun (that possibly has sentimental value, to boot) when higher capacity, lighter weight pistols are readily available? Assuming the 1911 is in .45: If he wants power in a convenient package and has to supply his own ammo, get a 10mm.

MistWolf
November 19, 2017, 00:35
There is no logistics train for firearms, it's byo.

There are no firearms there?

hkshooter
November 19, 2017, 11:49
Be the guy who everyone looks to when they don't have enough firepower. :fal:

A man among men comes to mind.

And who said SWIM was a male?

Old Sarge
November 19, 2017, 13:08
So what dose SWIM mean?

As to the gun question. If I was going out on some sort of (I am assuming here) Security/ LE type contract gig. I would want what ever the local cops are carrying. Also a vote for keep it disposable. You never know, might not be an issue getting it in but bringing it back may not be as easy.

AR and a Glock.
If you have to have the penetration look at a AR10. Get a decent one and keep it clean.

Just my .02 on it
Old Sarge

brunop
November 19, 2017, 18:56
I have been in Puerto Rico, and I've seen M-16s. So those parts are scrounge-able somewhere. And that ammo is around somewhere, too. Probably in the same places.

My only other addition is to say: If this is truly BYO, then bringing "enough" would be very (very) high on my priority list. So I'd go for AR (with spare bolt) and lots of 5.56x45 - even if there are lots of good arguments for a heavier caliber like .308...

Just my $0.02

hemcon9
November 22, 2017, 14:08
There are no firearms there?

Only what's there now.
I have heard not anything about supporting what the contract personnel bring in.
To me, it sounds like if you have to bring your own, you're probably on your own for parts/maintenance.

hemcon9
November 22, 2017, 14:22
Good advice from Old Sarge and Brunop.
M16's and Glocks are everywhere.

Of course that doesn't mean you'd be getting any of it.
I worked with a guy some years ago that complained that his Glock and my 1911 could not share mags or ammo.

His point was in an extended exchange, I couldn't toss him another mag.
My response was F off, you have 52 rnds. of pistol ammo hanging off you.
If you shoot it all up, you are not getting any of mine.

A friend of mine was involved in a shootout with the s.l.a. waaaay back in the day.
He had an AR18 and his buddies were throwing him mags as he was pinned in place by incoming from the shit heads- That's the only time I've ever heard of cop types running out of ammo.

Not saying it couldn't happen. Just that is pretty damn unlikely.
(*SWIM- someone who isn't me)