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View Full Version : Cal legal? What's it take??


greggv
October 26, 2017, 16:47
What's it take to make our FAL's Cal legal? I know there's all kinds of stuff for AR's but I haven't seen much for FAL's. Anyone help?

SAFN49
October 26, 2017, 17:30
Fin on the grip, no muzzle device, 10 round mag permanently fixed with a stripper clip top cover Someone willing to ship the rifle to CA and go through their :bullcrap: out of state dealer registration so an out of state dealer can ship to a dealer in CA.

bigstick61
October 26, 2017, 18:35
The two options are "featureless" or fixed-mag.

Featureless requires removing all features prohibited to semi-auto centrefire rifles with detachable magazines (now including magazines that require a tool for removal and not just pushing a lever or button). No pistol grip, no flash suppressor (and the definition of such makes many muzzle brakes and compensators run afoul of the law or at least be questionable), no thumbhole stock, no grenade or flare launcher, no forward pistol grip (I think the angled foregrip might be an issue as well for those who like those), and no folding/collapsible stock.

To be compliant is to basically used a fixed stock, or used a folding stock that has been modified to keep it from folding; use a grip with a built-in fin or a grip wrap with a fin that keeps your thumb from wrapping around the back of the grip; and either using no muzzle device or using a muzzle device that does not reduce flash or direct flash away from the shooter's field of view, or is advertised or designed/intended to do the same.

The upsides are that with this configuration you can use the standard magazine release and hi-cap mags. It's also something that can readily be accomplished. The downside is that the grip fins kill ergonomics and if you actually want to use the FAL for social use the flash in low-light conditions can be an issue, such as by affecting your night vision. Also looks terrible, aesthetically, but this is at best a secondary consideration for most.

The other option is fixed-magazine. The definition has been changed such that the magazine has to be fixed in a manner that makes it impossible to remove without disassembling the action. This can include opening up two-piece actions like what is found on the FAL, removal of the bolt group, separation of action halves, or other disassembly that basically renders the rifle inoperable while it is in that condition. In this configuration you can keep all features, but you cannot use a magazine with a capacity larger than ten rounds, as it would then become an assault weapon by default. For ease of reloading, a charger guide top cover is strongly recommended, but has no bearing on legalities. On paras, this can only be done by using the DSA or Tapco scope mount that is short and has the charger-guide built in (I'm not sure if any other para-compatible charger-guide scope mount has ever been made by anyone else).

Currently, this sort of thing can only be done using epoxies, pins, rivets, or welds to basically prevent the mag catch from being able to move or be removed without opening the action, or to directly attach the magazine to the receiver. Such methods are generally undesirable. Some methods recommended still by some, such as the set screw method with the magazine catch, don't meet the legal standard. There is work currently being done on a possible compliance solution that is more palatable and some proof-of-concept work has been successfully accomplished. I can't say much more than that right now, but if we can find a way to ensure that it can't be defeated without opening the action, then it will be the best way to fix the magazine in place as it would not permanently affect any major parts and could be restored to a standard configuration within minutes. Another idea someone else had which is different was to drill a hole in the magazine body and use a bent cotter pin to attach the magazine, using the hole, to the upper by wrapping the ends around the ejector. If it could stand up to an effort to remove the magazine and could actually stand up to actual shooting of the rifle, that could work well, potentially, and it would require removal of the bolt group and top cover in order to undo and/or release the magazine. Right now there is no production compliance item to fix the magazine.

The upside to the fixed magazine is that it preserves good ergonomics, preserves the ability to use flash suppression, and preserves other features that someone may find fun (like being able to launch inert grenades) or desirable. It also results in better aesthetics. With a charger-guide, loading may not be quite as easy as changing the magazine, or even as easy as charger-loading most other rifles with this feature, but is still able to be done relatively quickly and easily using NATO 7.62mm chargers. Downside is that you are limited to ten rounds and reloading, again, can't be accomplished without changing the magazine. In many cases, there may also be a need to engage in undesirable modifications to major or expensive parts, although there may be solutions to this problem in the near future.

The other thing to be aware of is overall length. Any semi-auto rifle has to be at least 30 inches long with the stock folded, fully collapsed, etc. (if applicable).; basically, 30 inches or longer in its shortest configuration as configured, or it is an assault weapon regardless of whether or not the magazine is detachable and what features it may have. A FAL para with combo device and 18" barrel just meets this standard. One with a 17.2" barrel (and certainly any shorter types available) fall short. In this case, even with a fixed magazine, you'd have to modify the stock to keep it from folding. The CA DOJ has also illegally altered the OAL requirement so that it does not include any removable muzzle device, which makes even the 18" para an issue. I believe this action is being challenged in court, or soon will be, as they made the change in the wake of the laws passed recently, and those laws made no changes to the legal definitions for OAL. This was completely a DOJ initiative. Under this standard, the muzzle device would need to be integral or permanently attached using similar standards for keeping a weapon from being treated like an SBR.

Also, FALs cannot be on the Roberti-Roos list. If it is listed by both make and model, then it is an assault weapon by name and no changes to the configuration can change its status; even the stripped receiver is an AW. All FNs except for those with the model name "FN .308" are on the list, to the best of my knowledge. I can't remember if the SAR-48 is on the list or not. I don't believe any other FAL is on there by both make and model, but it is best to check and be sure.

Any FAL registered as an AW, regardless of what category or whether or not it actually meets the definition, cannot be transferred.

If you own a FAL that meets the pre-2017 definition of fixed magazine, which you acquired or configured that way before 2017, using a bullet button or similar device, or any other method that can be undone without disassembling the action, then you can keep it without issue until July 2018. You have until then to either sell it to someone with an assault weapon permit (it may have to be an FFL with such a permit, I can't recall for sure), destroy/deactivate it, turn it in, remove it from the State, modify it so that it is in a legal configuration under either the featureless or new fixed mag standard, or register it as an assault weapon. DOJ has made the process more onerous and for anyone technologically challenged, potentially infeasible. They have also stated that you must keep the bullet button or whatnot in place after registration, but this has no basis in the law and is being challenged in court, but it is what is currently being enforced.

lew
October 26, 2017, 19:45
Seems like the expense sunk into insuring that a rifle meets compliance regulations would be better off put into procuring a moving truck.

bigstick61
October 26, 2017, 23:51
Not really. Some of us aren't in a position to leave, anyways.

Also. I forgot to mention that if parts are removed to prevent it from functioning as a semi-auto or functioning at all, DOJ is considering it no longer a semi-auto and thus not an AW. Removing the gas piston is an expedient way to go about that and costs nothing if keeping it rather than shooting it as a semi-auto is the main concern.

SAFN49
October 27, 2017, 00:14
Also, FALs cannot be on the Roberti-Roos list. If it is listed by both make and model, then it is an assault weapon by name and no changes to the configuration can change its status; even the stripped receiver is an AW. All FNs except for those with the model name "FN .308" are on the list, to the best of my knowledge. I can't remember if the SAR-48 is on the list or not. I don't believe any other FAL is on there by both make and model, but it is best to check and be sure.



Are featureless Indian 1A1's with a 10 round detachable mag listed on Roberti-Roos? :biggrin:

http://i.imgur.com/Ffhugnk.jpg (https://imgur.com/Ffhugnk)

EinheitElf
October 27, 2017, 00:37
SSSSLLLLLIIICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!:bow::beer: ^^^^

bigstick61
October 27, 2017, 01:56
Should be GTG. The only FALs banned by name are the FN .308 Match, FAL, and LAR, as well as the Springfield Armory, Inc. SAR-48.

The clear grip wrap is a great idea from an aesthetic perspective for those going that route.

Parga
October 27, 2017, 03:00
Hopefully in the next week or so I'll be making a few mag catch inserts that will hold the mag but will be flush with the receiver and immobile. I while back I experimented with some mag catches by silver soldering a block to the back portion then fitting to the receiver. Mag is locked and can only be removed by removing the BHO/mag catch screw. Loading is facilitated by either stripper clip top cover or by breaking action open and removing top cover and bolt group

falbuild
November 01, 2017, 15:30
Just remove the grip & flash hider & 10rd mag. That's all you need to ship a FAL to a CA FFL. But check with the FFL first.

bigstick61
November 02, 2017, 06:11
Just remove the grip & flash hider & 10rd mag. That's all you need to ship a FAL to a CA FFL. But check with the FFL first.

Or just ship the barreled upper assembly to the FFL and the rest to the buyer.

Impala_Guy
November 02, 2017, 08:41
https://www.pensketruckrental.com/imgs/trucks-large/img_rental_16economyvan.jpg

Macho Hambre
November 02, 2017, 11:20
Hopefully in the next week or so I'll be making a few mag catch inserts that will hold the mag but will be flush with the receiver and immobile. I while back I experimented with some mag catches by silver soldering a block to the back portion then fitting to the receiver. Mag is locked and can only be removed by removing the BHO/mag catch screw. Loading is facilitated by either stripper clip top cover or by breaking action open and removing top cover and bolt group


Really excited to see what you are working on Parga - we need a compliance device here behind the iron kurtain in a big way!

Based on your above description and my understanding of the new AW definition, one issue I see is that if the mag catch/BHO screw can be removed with the action closed (thus allowing the modified magazine catch to release the magazine with the action closed) then it will still be an Assault Weapon in the eyes of the DOJ. In a nutshell you are using a tool (to remove parts) to remove the magazine with the action closed = not really all that different than the current FAL 'bullet buttons' we have to use. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your description?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=649951&d=1508545164

lew
November 02, 2017, 11:47
https://www.pensketruckrental.com/imgs/trucks-large/img_rental_16economyvan.jpg

No kidding. Liberty (or at least a considerable increase thereof) is only a state away to the east or northeast (OR's a bit precarious). Some will make excuses, though.

bigstick61
November 02, 2017, 13:56
No kidding. Liberty (or at least a considerable increase thereof) is only a state away to the east or northeast (OR's a bit precarious). Some will make excuses, though.

Easier said than done, but this crap is all some people seem to have the ability to "contribute". The only way I can move out of State is if I want to live as a homeless person. I couldn't even afford to rent the moving truck. I'm also not going to stop taking care of my grandfather and avoid spending time with him in his final years over gun laws. But again, talk about "moving" is easier for some on the outside than saying anything useful.

One day I'll make a permament move (most likely to AZ), but it can't be right now. In the meantime, there is a need to be compliant in public.

alfa1
November 02, 2017, 16:51
While most of those on this board do not live in Kali or have to prostrate themselves to its overreaching gun laws, you might find some useful information on this site:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/index.php?styleid=6&styleid=6
There are still some resilient individuals in that state that have developed solutions for dilemma’s similar to yours. Read and ask questions.

It seems to me at least, a solution for you would be to find a good used Ruger Mini 14 ranch rifle and some 10 round mags....I can’t say positively if this is a good to go fix, but nothing on that rifle ‘screams Assault Weapon’. So, myself and my contraband having escaped the Golden State of Confusion this past January. The air is a little easier to breath and things are much cheaper too !

If your intent is to pursue the having of a FAL type rifle in that state..Good Luck!

Parga
November 04, 2017, 03:31
Actually the magazine would stay in place and load from the top with either a stripper clip top cover or simply removing the dust cover. Essentially ala SKS.
I'm going to a CA DOJ class next month so I'm going to ask about it then for clarification. Stay tuned

Really excited to see what you are working on Parga - we need a compliance device here behind the iron kurtain in a big way!

Based on your above description and my understanding of the new AW definition, one issue I see is that if the mag catch/BHO screw can be removed with the action closed (thus allowing the modified magazine catch to release the magazine with the action closed) then it will still be an Assault Weapon in the eyes of the DOJ. In a nutshell you are using a tool (to remove parts) to remove the magazine with the action closed = not really all that different than the current FAL 'bullet buttons' we have to use. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your description?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=649951&d=1508545164

Macho Hambre
December 26, 2017, 15:58
Parga - I am really curious and would love to hear what you learned at the CA DOJ class you attended in regards to compliance devices/modifications. Specifically if they touched on what the minimum standard of permanence that a compliance part/modification/device must achieve in order to comply with the pending AW law...


Actually the magazine would stay in place and load from the top with either a stripper clip top cover or simply removing the dust cover. Essentially ala SKS.
I'm going to a CA DOJ class next month so I'm going to ask about it then for clarification. Stay tuned

Parga
December 26, 2017, 17:55
Sorry for the delay, it's been busy to say the least.
Talked to the Special Agent Supervisor at the class on 12/7 and I explained to him what I had come up with and he was interested in seeing it. I'm taking photos and sending them to him on thursday. I'll let you know what he has to say. He said a level of permanence would include epoxying the magazine to the receiver...Go figure

Macho Hambre
December 26, 2017, 19:04
If his take that epoxy achieves permanence is in fact the DOJs opinion, then that is certainly encouraging news...
PM sent

adbm3
December 27, 2017, 00:34
Yeah, really not helpful there. When all y'all battle it out on the front lines then I'll have a bit more respect. you might also want to consider moving into california because loss of votes here to protect your own rear ends somewhere else only contributes to stupid out of stater comments about how crazy it is here when you really don't know and only are characterizing a very concentrated portion of the state. Just be prepared for when they start coming for you. Yep, Lisa Murkowski is real peach too.

Peoples republic legal for an FAL as far as I can surmise is to place a fin on the grip and either remove the flash hider, or better, use a muzzle brake. Also, importantly, take off the bullet button if you do the foregoing. Leaving it on or gluing your mag or pinning your mag and using a stripper cover or whatever other dumb thing you want to do to the mag now classifies the rifle as an assault weapon. It is conceivable that a mag can be locked in place and only removable if the take down lever is used to "Break" the action apart for the purpose of removing the magazine. This is one of the options all the AR guys are taking.

raubvogel
December 27, 2017, 07:25
Your argument is very interesting: your state is becoming too gun hating? Move to the next one. Guess what? What is stopping the gun hating crowd from moving to the same state you moved to? They might make the move for the other reasons you would, like economy going down the tubes for the decisions the politicians they voted in did, but they will not make the correlation because they are always right.

I cannot find it right now but there is a scene in the original War of the Worlds movie in which they explain the invaders's movements: they attack an area, consolidate their control, and then move to the next. This is what the other side is doing. The end game is still the same: control everything. You can keep on moving but one day you will have nowhere else to move.

rick1881
December 27, 2017, 13:20
When I bought my CA legal SA 58 10-12 years ago the mag was a fixed 10 rounder w/ stripper clip dust cover and I remember what I had to do to just to take it apart to see how the mag was secured, had to separate the upper from the lower just to get at the parts. If you can't remove the mag with the upper and lower assembled??? what am I missing about a fixed mag.

If I was to go featureless who has the parts other than DSA for the muzzle brake and stock mag release?
Thanks
Rick

Slaughter
December 27, 2017, 22:30
I wrote to Bulletbutton.com to ask about CA-legality and got their reply: (note, I already use their bullet buttons on my ARs and FALs but with mid-year law changes, need to have mag drop after opening action.

Will you have new device for .CA compliance for our FALs?

I have your bullet button but obviously mid year I will no longer be in compliance.

Help?!

Steve Slaughter

Fear not Old Buell Racer!

WE will have you covered before the deadline.

Darin

rick1881
December 28, 2017, 12:03
Thank's I'll keep my eyes open.

Macho Hambre
January 05, 2018, 10:10
Whatever the solution, I don’t think it should involve any modifications to the receiver - ideally just simple drop in replacement part(s).

bigstick61
January 05, 2018, 15:37
One of the members here is working on just such a thing. There may end up being a couple of options, at least.

ETA: I forgot you go by Macho Hambre here, LOL.

sgr
January 05, 2018, 16:26
Thanks for the update!

Macho Hambre
January 05, 2018, 20:31
...I've been outed lol.

Stay tuned.....


One of the members here is working on just such a thing. There may end up being a couple of options, at least.

ETA: I forgot you go by Macho Hambre here, LOL.

garandguy10
January 06, 2018, 11:27
M1 Garands are still legal in California in their original configuration..... Just sayin......

Macho Hambre
January 06, 2018, 13:21
Already have the M1 Garand bases more than covered which is why I drifted into the FAL sphere of this addiction lol. Now back to the CMP boards you go! :wink:


M1 Garands are still legal in California in their original configuration..... Just sayin......