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madrad62
October 16, 2017, 19:23
Whats all this hype over an o ring on the extractor spring ? I've been running an a2 sporter 2 since 1990 and never had any extractor issues!
Should I get one?,or is this just the latest you gotta have this horse shit!
I should tell the truth,I had one stuck case ten yrs ago,using some ruski hollow points.That stuff was dirty-dirty -dirty.Inever used it again and never had a stuck case after.
The poor thing has around 7k rds through it and have never replaced anything,it just keeps going.
Shoot,clean,lube-shoot,clean,lube

aquaman
October 16, 2017, 22:22
I used one to fix a defective Palmetto State Bolt.

The problem was that occasionally a case would get stuck in the chamber. I could tell that the extractor was slipping off the case rim.

Failure to extract sucks at the range if you don't have a cleaning rod to tap the shell out of the chamber.

So... not having a cleaning rod, I put the bolt from a different rifle in and... out came the stuck shell, slicker than owl shit!

After I put the D shaped O-Ring dingus on the bolt the problem was fixed and no more problems! Until of the extractor wore out anyway... inferior metal there it seems. Such is my story of a bargain BCG....

Barbcue
October 17, 2017, 01:42
Anybody have an idea of what would be the best or strongest most durable extractors to run ?

TenTea
October 17, 2017, 05:56
Whats all this hype over an o ring on the extractor spring ? I've been running an a2 sporter 2 since 1990 and never had any extractor issues!

Started in the early 90's, after your rifle was manufactured, as a *product improvement.*

No hype - old news. :)

O-rings are good for many things...embrace them!

https://www.bedsider.org/views/methods/show/illustrations/ring-in1@1x.png

hueyville
October 17, 2017, 07:06
I like to buy upgraded bolts as find and then swap into discounted BCG's and then put an entire bolt as a spare with almost every rifle. White Oak and ARP have been my "go-to" companies for bolts but have a couple rifles testing the Sharps Dura-bolts in as found some fairly priced and have some unique features. Was kind of suprised to read this from owner of ARP but makes sense to some degree.

We use Stag 5.56 extractors and springs. They are not the strongest but not the weakest either. Sometimes O rings and D rings can cause problems by being too strong. It's a trial and error kind of thing that must be adjusted depending on pressure and timing.*

I like PRI when have a rifle with extractor issues at about $20. Have used DPMS with success as well in $20 price range. Colt has their vendors fairly well shaken out and at $30 to $35 normally when recently found a vendor with them at $19.99 purchased a few. If want to spend big JP will part your wallet for price of a complete bolt for their extractor. Usually unless broken or know your bolt has a MIM extractor usually a spring/O-ring swap for $3 to $5 will cure it. YMMV

MAINER
October 17, 2017, 09:38
Anybody have an idea of what would be the best or strongest most durable extractors to run ?

What these guys use. https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-Bolt-Carrier-Group-Parts-s/221.htm

Colt or Les Baer hard chromed would be my other choice.

I don't seem to have much trouble with AR extractors. I am very good with a brush and solvent after the smoke clears. The Bolt gets special attention.

SAFN49
October 17, 2017, 09:53
Mack Gwinn gave me some many moons ago, right after he invented the D ring, when he was trying to sell them to the military at Crane Naval Weapons station. I still have a couple in the original packaging laying around somewhere.
I never had to use them in any of my AR's. If the extractor, spring and rubber button are good you shouldn't need them. His sales pitch was that if an extractor spring got weak or broke during a fire fight the D ring would still allow the weapon to function.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/extractor-parts/extractor-hardware/ar-15-m16-d-fender-extractor-d-ring-prod9949.aspx

I'll try to find the ones I have. They are the original blue ones.

http://www.mgi-military.com/document_upload/Dfender.pdf

KoKodog
October 17, 2017, 11:47
previously addressed .......


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3365184&postcount=14


on failure to extract

first - check the extractor, make certain it is not compromised (broken in any way or edge of claw worn) replace if needed

the extractor insert is a plastic (polymer) post that is designed to keep the extractor spring from side loading/failing to
work properly and the O-ring is to increase the extractor pressure for positive extraction

http://www.uniquetek.com/files/696296/uploaded/Extractor_Upgrade_Kit_detail.jpg


a nice tool to use when working on the AR bolt is this >>>> https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/bench-vise-blocks/sinclair-ar-15-bolt-vise-prod34719.aspx
SINCLAIR AR-15 BOLT VISE

Don't waste money on the "Brand Name Rifle" O rings. or some expensive D ring kit
You can buy a package of ten for what a single brand name cost. (possibly a hundred like I did)

Extractor O ring info. - McMaster-Carr Viton o-rings.

1201T16 (Same as 1201T111) Mil-Spec Viton O-Ring
AS568A Dash Number 006

https://www.mcmaster.com

[ AS568A-006 ] <<<< search for that number

ID: 1/8" (0.114")

OD: 1/4" (0.254")


I'd add that you DO want to go with McMaster-Carr rather than some other source of O rings.
The same dimensions can be found with standard plumbing O rings (#60 size),
and those will deteriorate and fail (or stick to the extractor) in very short order (less than 100 rounds).
Going with McMaster-Carr guarantees getting Viton rings, which is very important.


now if you have failure to feed issues after dealing with the extractor ......

carefully de-bur the front inside edge of the magazine and the feed lips,
just enough so that there is nothing rough catching the ammo

on edit; fixed for SAFN49

jhend170
October 17, 2017, 13:49
As barrels got shorter so did dwell times. Short dwell times mean the brass has less time to return to it's original size, thus making extraction more difficult for guns with short gas systems. The fix is to lengthen dwell, but the o-ring helps ensure extraction, especially in a hot and dirty weapon. This is the reason I don't own a 5.56 AR pistol, as reliability falls exponentially with barrel length.

SAFN49
October 17, 2017, 15:41
previously addressed .......


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3365184&postcount=14


on failure to extract

first - check the extractor, make certain it is not compromised (broken in any way or edge of claw worn) replace if needed

the extractor insert is a plastic (polymer) post that is designed to keep the extractor spring from side loading/failing to
work properly and the O-ring is to increase the extractor pressure for positive extraction
a good photo of it is here >>>> http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=2...OR-UPGRADE-KIT


a nice tool to use when working on the AR bolt is this >>>> http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=5...00003_d_11266#



Neither of those links work.

How much does the off the shelf O ring increase extractor tension?
The D ring which was designed and tested just for use in M16 bolts increases it by 400%.

hueyville
October 17, 2017, 15:51
previously addressed .......


Go to bottom of page, under display options click drop down box "From The" select "last year" then click show threads. Pretty much any common problem with an AR will have a topic on each page as it seems habit for most to start a new thread if do not see solution to their issue obviously on page that loads without forcing site to show any threads more than a month old. This is why I have a habit of going back a page or two on occasion and placing a post or question in closest existing topic I can find using the "last 75 days" or last "100 days" selection. trying to keep thread count down as my walls of text are bad enough without a new thread per day.

Figure every new thread I do not start makes a search easier for others that do the same thing. Have mentioned several times we need a few stickies in the AR section on subjects like building an AR, general trouble shooting, extraction, triggers and gas issues. Have statement that moderators will delete off topic posts to stickies or move into a separate thread so get pushed off front page in a few weeks so stickies stay concise. My guess is this would eliminate 25% to 40% of new threads and our best solutions to old problems would always be at the top of the page. Seems like site searches challenge a lot of users.

As barrels got shorter so did dwell times. Short dwell times mean the brass has less time to return to it's original size, thus making extraction more difficult for guns with short gas systems. The fix is to lengthen dwell, but the o-ring helps ensure extraction, especially in a hot and dirty weapon. This is the reason I don't own a 5.56 AR pistol, as reliability falls exponentially with barrel length.

And we have a winner, give the man his prize... Except for blow-back designs or piston guns (did I just say piston in relation to AR's) short barrel DI pistols you use a NATO chamber, over-gas them so that work with all ammo and know your going to break extractors and bolts if use them.

Keep picking up a SIG MCX Rattler PSB Pistol with collapsible SIG Brace in 300 B.O. at LGS. 5.5" barrel, easy to adjust gas so sticking a can on or removing it would simple once you had your gas settings figured out and well marked. The $2,270 plus sales tax price that am sure could get it out the door for close to $2,200 if really wanted is the pistol to have. Can build five basic guns with sights for that price and three really nice rifles. To drop under 11.5" with a DI pistol my worry is that the extractor or entire bolt carrier group will come unglued right in the middle of time most needed.

This is stuff I see on internet and in LGS more often than makes me feel secure. At LGS and just around ranges or places I hang out its usually the guy that rolled up an AR pistol or SBR using a $59 or $79 clearance bolt carrier group who's gun soon looks like this if run it hard for long.

Broken Extractors:

http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/data/500/cracked-ar15-extractor.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/34ffqra.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/1z671y1.jpg

Broken Bolts:

http://i32.tinypic.com/25an0xc.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/HM-Defense-HMB-AR-15-Bolt-2.jpg

https://moderncombatandsurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/broken-ar15-bolt1.jpg

This one is from a piston gun.

http://www.us-rd.com/sitebuilder/images/Broken_Bolt-600x483.jpg

Almost every AR that leaves the house with me and definitely all defensive AR's like the Flaming Pig that lives in lock behind the seat if didn't find a deal on grip with designed for storage gets one of these:

https://m1naeh-sdnfhigt.lagrangesystems.net/qEYZMWAkR/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/600x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/F/1/xF1001997.jpg.pagespeed.ic.3y7wuUX4KA.jpg

Inside of grip have a complete spare bolt, firing pin and cam pin. Trying to swap an extractor if were to break in a situation where rifle was needed bad would suck. If bolt breaks likely to take the cam pin and firing pin with it. If carrier breaks well can't carry everything why its not uncommon for me to throw in a second rifle based on where working so have a varmint sniper or heavy defensive cartridge selection aka 6.8 spc II. Had one in lock for a while but decided the 5.56 Flaming Pig was a better always have near rifle as more likely to find extra 5.56 ammo and parts if world went sideways and spent a few days walking home.

There are so many MIM extractors being used now that I can't be sure what some bolts have unless seller specifically states exact maker of extractor and what kind of spring and rubber widget is under it. So all of the carry rifles, especially 6.8 and 22 Nosler that burn 25% more propellant with every round bolt breakage is going to happen. Even ARP says to replace their Superbolts every 5,000 rounds in 6.8 and 22 Nosler. A 5.56 binary rifle that might decide that best recourse is to put two magazines of M855 green tip downrange at 300 to 500 rounds per minute and may be needing a bolt soon with it.

Until the past decade where roll your own and bargain parts has become common I seldom saw a broken bolt. Got my first Colt AR 15 in early teens and by time I graduated from High School had a SP1 CAR-15 and an SP1 20" A1, was getting pretty heavy into reloading and the foolishness of youth sent many a mag dump downrange. First 20 years of shooting mostly Colts and building a few Olympics can honestly say I never saw a broken bolt in one of my rifles or anyone else's except what could be attributed to a reloading error.

Had a friend that just could not break is habit of being mechanically inept and drinking when reloading. I KaBommed one build a few years ago and to this day have not figured out exactly what the cause was except had a bag of pulled bullets that didn't know were mixed weight, had some oversize projectiles and a worn out first generation Mr Bulletfeeder handling the projectiles. Pulled every bullet in the 500 round run and other than a few that were 0.003 oversize, and varying weights from 62 to 69 grains.

Now I see 300 B.O.'s accidentlay loaded into 5.56, steel case ammo issues and reloading errors but so many broken bolts and extractors with reasonable quality factory ammo it just seems that a lot of parts are not up to snuff. I pull the bolts out of my $59 and $79 BCG's often, put in grip and drop in a know high quality bolt so have some level or trust and the cheap original bolt in the grip. Had I not had one of the toughest bolts made locked up in a heay WOA barrel when had my KaBoom feel like may have had a severe if not life threatening injury. Have reloaded over a million rounds and only had this one incident but one is all it takes. Imagine what would have happened to me had that bolt not stayed locked? A bolt carrier through the eyeball into brain might be a deal someone doesn't walk away from and why I don't use cheap bollts except as spare parts.

http://i57.tinypic.com/15yfy48.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2vws1i1.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/246p7gi.jpg

Lets not rehash the probable or possible reasons for this incident a third time. The 5.56 press has a Dillon powder check system that alarms if case is not charged as goes round the press. Case had right powder and correct amount as the remaining 450+ pulled rounds were all spot on. Only issue was mixed weight and size of projectiles. At time seller did not say bullets may occasionally have a mismatched size/weight and to check each bullet before use but they do now.

If not using the old bullet feeder believe I would have noticed from feel of bullets something was off. Pictures are to remind all that a good bolt may be all that stands between them and disaster. All blame is on me for not doing a spot check on every 500 round bad of pulled bullets cut open but you can bet I do it now. In 5.56 pulls its actually amazing the variation and number of bent bullets so why wife now pushes all into a swaging die and sot checks all before loaded into bullet feeder now. Just like all match bullets go through a pointing die for consistent tips, make sure the pulls are right and she enjoys the task.

madrad62
October 17, 2017, 16:04
So,if you dont want to pay child support,put a o ring in your vagina.
Only put a o ring in your AR if it gets sticky?
I'm cornfused,can I put a vag ring in my AR and a AR ring in my vagina?

SAFN49
October 17, 2017, 17:05
The ways to reduce gas on short bbl AR's it the La France twin tube, the pig tail or the fatboy tube.

If you are building a carbine I would just use a pigtail.

KoKodog
October 17, 2017, 17:05
So,if you dont want to pay child support,put a o ring in your vagina.
Only put a o ring in your AR if it gets sticky?
I'm cornfused,can I put a vag ring in my AR and a AR ring in my vagina?

not quite ...... use this on your nuts

http://www.sheep101.info/201/Images/elastrator.jpg

TenTea
October 17, 2017, 17:31
So,if you dont want to pay child support,put a o ring in your vagina.
Only put a o ring in your AR if it gets sticky?
I'm cornfused,can I put a vag ring in my AR and a AR ring in my vagina?

Yes! ;) :biggrin:

And if living in the desert for any length of time, keep your o-ring lubed...a little dab will do ya.

Vaseline is a good prep to put up along with bullets and beans.

lockjaw
October 17, 2017, 17:34
The o-ring shouldn't be necessary.

An o-ring can help in situations where the rifle was improperly maintained or improperly built, or adverse conditions (full auto with suppressor in the desert).

It doesn't hurt to install in a properly maintained rifle, but shouldn't be necessary. If you need an o-ring to make your AR run efficiently, you likely have other issues that need to be addressed before something breaks.

Current issues USGI M4A1 rifles are not issued with these magical o-rings, nor are they an "upgrade" option. Hmmm.........

The armchair commando may disagree. "It came stock in my BCM rifle....." I like BCM. They build quality rifles (sub 14.5" barrels with suppressor) that don't need a rubber o-ring. But that .04 rubber o-ring is an "upgrade" which gives the armchair commando community warm fuzzies.... and sells uppers/guns.

.... long story short, if your rifle runs fine without it, you don't need it. If you need one, you are a bad ass operating with bad ass rifles in adverse conditions..... for everyone else, your rifle has build issues.

TenTea
October 17, 2017, 17:40
Some bolts have 'em and some don't, but all are functional.
I'm not a badass, though....just a trigger puller.

SAFN49
October 17, 2017, 18:23
An o-ring can help in situations where the rifle was improperly maintained or improperly built, or adverse conditions (full auto with suppressor in the desert).

Current issues USGI M4A1 rifles are not issued with these magical o-rings, nor are they an "upgrade" option. Hmmm.........

The armchair commando may disagree. "It came stock in my BCM rifle....." I like BCM. They build quality rifles (sub 14.5" barrels with suppressor) that don't need a rubber o-ring. But that .04 rubber o-ring is an "upgrade" which gives the armchair commando community warm fuzzies.... and sells uppers/guns.

If you need one, you are a bad ass operating with bad ass rifles in adverse conditions.....

^^^^This
Which is why the D ring was made available at Crane Naval weapons station for the bad ass operators using 10" - 11.5" suppressed Colt rifles a couple decades ago.
Then someone came up with a cheap o ring will save me $6 and will kinda do the same thing.

KoKodog
October 17, 2017, 18:31
The o-ring shouldn't be necessary.



M4 feed ramps shouldn't be necessary.
a ACOG shouldn't be necessary.
a suppressor shouldn't be necessary.
BUIS shouldn't be necessary.
a 100 round magazine shouldn't be necessary.
4 Picatinny rails shouldn't be necessary.
a fully adjustable stock shouldn't be necessary.
45 degree offset sights shouldn't be necessary.
a brass catcher shouldn't be necessary.
a flash suppressor shouldn't be necessary.
a night vision scope shouldn't be necessary.
a thermal scope shouldn't be necessary.

the fact is, shit happens

not all selections of ammo are not the same
all elevations where you shoot are not the same
barometric pressure and humidity are not the same

every time I look ….. Murphy is standing on my back beating me over the head w/ everything he can

I will use the poly post and o-ring to ensure positive extraction, odds are the day I absolutely need it is coming quickly

SAFN49
October 17, 2017, 18:50
M4 feed ramps shouldn't be necessary.


I could qualify expert without any of the above mentioned items, but the M4 feed ramps greatly reduce jamming even on the range. If I had to pick only 1 item I would choose the M4 feed ramps. My experience is only with M16A1's and the change over to M16A2's.

lockjaw
October 18, 2017, 20:43
... armchair commando blah blah blah....

Thank you for the laugh, that was good. :whiskey:

jhend170
October 19, 2017, 11:13
[QUOTE=hueyville;4490858]


And we have a winner, give the man his prize... Except for blow-back designs or piston guns (did I just say piston in relation to AR's) short barrel DI pistols you use a NATO chamber, over-gas them so that work with all ammo and know your going to break extractors and bolts if use them.

QUOTE]

<Takes a bow, :takebow:waves to crowd> Thank you... thank you all. Thank you also for confirming why my AR pistol in 300BO is a piston gun.

To add to the above any cartridge that hasn't fully expended its powder load AND has a short gas system is just asking for trouble. The powder still burning means that the brass is kept expanded against chamber walls and the extractor is going to catch hell trying to do its job. With the short burn time of the BO running it as a pistol is a lot safer for the extractor because you achieve full burn at about 9" of barrel length (I run a 10.5"), thus pressure drops after that point and brass contracts. With the 5.56 needing just north of 18" for a full powder burn that powder is burning and expanding still as the system tries to cycle, keeping the brass expanded and locked into the chamber walls. If you go to the Wylde chamber it's worse, .223 worse still as they are tighter chambers and therefore require more time for brass contraction. This expands to all cartridges that were never designed to be pistol types, be it 5.56, 6.8, 6.5, whatever. As Huey says above though pistons can help a little, heavy cyclic systems more (think M-16 carrier plugs heavy buffer), heavier recoil spring, pigtail gas tube, and an adjustable gas block can all help as well, with the pigtail probably the best and simplest solution in a DI gun as the dwell time can be made to approach that of a carbine-length system. As always though YMMV

KoKodog
October 19, 2017, 11:45
Thank you for the laugh, that was good. :whiskey:

sorry, I did not realize you were a armchair commando,

that explains why you have no experience w/ Murphy

lockjaw
October 19, 2017, 14:46
sorry, I did not realize you were a armchair commando,

that explains why you have no experience w/ Murphy

I don't know Murphy, but I did hook up with his girlfriend before marrying his sister. :shades:

KoKodog
October 19, 2017, 22:32
I don't know Murphy, but I did hook up with his girlfriend before marrying his sister. :shades:

ok, you are married to "Mary Palmer" have dated her 5 sisters and live in your Mom's basement

Tuscan Raider
October 20, 2017, 00:06
Never needed one.

Mebsuta
October 20, 2017, 00:09
People will scuffle over anything.

lockjaw
October 20, 2017, 04:30
People will scuffle over anything.

Yep. It looks like I stumbled upon the forum resident troll. Every forum seems to have one. Sorry about that.

My wife does get mad at me for spending too much time in the basement (workshop), and having spent multiple years overseas away from wives/girlfriends, I know Rosey (and her five sisters) very well. Mary Palmer is a lefty, she lacked the capacity to keep me happy.

Three combat tours here and I carry a patrol rifle every day on the civilian side of the fence. I have have also been through armor's courses in the US Army (someone has to be trained to fix weapons on remote FOBs, unlike the larger bases where civilians fix everything). I enjoy shooting and building, though the extent of such has dwindled down a bit as my kids take up more time (no complaints) and winding towards retirement from the Army (National Guard).

I never needed an o-ring in any of my combat issues rifles. The o-ring is NOT currently used with the transition to M4A1 rifles. The M4A1 now sports a SOCOM profile barrels and back to full auto trigger groups. I have handled hundreds of our transitioned M4A1 rifles. No "hear-say," no BS, NO o-rings.

I have a few o-rings floating around that were pulled from BCM uppers that I picked up when BCM used to have killer Black Friday sale. I need (not want) the rifle to function properly without a beefed up extractor. If the rifles needs a beefed up extractor to function properly, the stresses are transferred elsewhere to the operating system (bolt, chamber…) and the round itself.

If you want the o-ring, no problem. It isn't necessary on a properly built AR, If makes you happy, cool. "If" I wanted an o-ring, I wouldn't toss one in the rifle (or I would remove if equipped stock) until I ran a few hundred rounds through it with assorted ammo.

I also believe that any AR should run reliably with steel cased ammo (with a buffer change).

hueyville
October 20, 2017, 06:58
Every AR have purchased factory built or built myself from parts (combined total of ~50 personal over 30+ years) have run bolts as shipped by manufacturer. If its a Colt bolt with the gold spring and black rubber plug that supposidly ships in both civilian AR's and dot gov M4's (only modern select M4 had opportunity to dive into was a LE rifle with extraction problems that turned out to be piece of broken case stuck under extractor had the gold spring and blue rubber plug) leave it as shipped. Older SP1's with only a spring leave as shipped. All of my build bolts leave as shipped, don't remove an extractor till breaks and never broken one.

Working behind smith counter at LGS part time is a total different story. Factory and kitchen table rifles come in with extractor issues and broken extractors regularly and on occasion broken bolts or complete BCG's. Most extraction issues are a failure in basic build techniques of overgassed, wrong buffer and other oddness. Once pull an extractor and examine spring setup nine times out of ten drop in a Colt gold spring with plug after solving actual issue. Most broken extractors are in AR pistols and SBR's built with cheap bolts and even on occasion with most expensive bolts can buy. Because its what store owner stocks usually swap in a DPMS extractor, Colt spring and plug then do my best to talk owner into spending the money to reduce chance of future breakage.

Easiest fix is a heavy buffer, can't count the number of AR pistols come in with issues running standard carbine buffers. Have noticed all Palmetto pistol lowers ship with standard carbine buffer. Combine overgassed gun with light buffer and cyclic rate combined with cheap steel or hot ammo and entry level extractors give up. Drop an H3 in and if runs a magazine of mixed 55, 62 and 70 grain ammo call it good. Every build or new rifle I take to range have an H1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and Slash Heavy buffer. Heaviest buffer it will run reliably with variety of ammo is how it stays. If personal rifle gets a binary trigger usually add an MGI Rate Reduction buffer.

If customer has a suppressor mount on end tell them there is a zero round guarantee unless swap over to adjustible gas and learns to turn gas down when runs their can. But to see a pistol with oversize gas port, standard buffer and suppressor mount it's going to break extractors and bolts. Recently had client with trouble installing a Franklin Binary trigger in pistol with standard buffer and suppressor mount whose can had not cleared BATFE "jail". We got the trigger sorted out and recommended heavy buffer and adjustible gas. Client said it had run perfect with all ammo didn't want to change anything. Few weeks later his can came in and following Monday came in with extractor blown to bits and bolt broken as well.

It's odd, people either never have extractor problems (aka people that understand good ammo and properly gassed gun is mandatory) and others that have regular extractor problems. Kitchen table pistol or short barrel builds (up to 16") with standard buffers, full gas, MIM extractors and like to shoot Tulammo or similar. Otherwise no reason for broken parts on a DI gun except under extreme use. Blaming the spring for extraction problems is usually only part of the actual issue just an indication of two completly different issues.

KoKodog
October 20, 2017, 13:19
Yep. It looks like I stumbled upon the forum resident troll. Every forum seems to have one. Sorry about that.


no troll, just not afraid to call bullshit to blanket statements like the one you made



Three combat tours here and I carry a patrol rifle every day on the civilian side of the fence. I have have also been through armor's courses in the US Army (someone has to be trained to fix weapons on remote FOBs, unlike the larger bases where civilians fix everything). I enjoy shooting and building, though the extent of such has dwindled down a bit as my kids take up more time (no complaints) and winding towards retirement from the Army (National Guard).

I never needed an o-ring in any of my combat issues rifles. The o-ring is NOT currently used with the transition to M4A1 rifles. The M4A1 now sports a SOCOM profile barrels and back to full auto trigger groups. I have handled hundreds of our transitioned M4A1 rifles. No "hear-say," no BS, NO o-rings.


ok, so now you switch to only “issue” weapons, you could have saved yourself and everyone else the trouble of having to read past all your posts, if you would have stated “issue only” everyone could have easily related to M855 ammo and “as issued weapons”


If you want the o-ring, no problem. It isn't necessary on a properly built AR, If makes you happy, cool. "If" I wanted an o-ring, I wouldn't toss one in the rifle (or I would remove if equipped stock) until I ran a few hundred rounds through it with assorted ammo.

I also believe that any AR should run reliably with steel cased ammo (with a buffer change).


and still more contradictions to your blanket statement

Huey explained many problems he has seen, many are caused by the mix & match market we have today

your statement for “as issued weapons” is correct, the o-ring was not issued on the weapon, and under the proper conditions “should not be needed”, we all get that

over the last 8 years a ever growing percentage of parts have gone out the door out of spec due to market pressure

so a little out of spec here, a little out of speck there and you get “tolerance stacking” and that becomes a nightmare to try to sort out the problems the weapon is having

the “o-ring and poly post fix” has come out of necessity for many, most do not have a “issue weapon and ammo”

steel cased ammo for US based cartridges is a entire problem unto itself since US based cartridges are based on using brass cases, Russian steel case ammo was based on the heavily tapered case ensuring positive extraction and ejection

lockjaw
October 20, 2017, 14:11
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/3uWe5j.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po3uWe5jj)



Roger that "dog." ;)

KoKodog
October 20, 2017, 14:55
So why post your own 5th grade pic and try to pass it off as being my pic ?

hueyville
October 20, 2017, 18:33
Usually I am the first to be called out for causing thread drift and seldom told am plain wrong. Certain people even if not my favorite people on the forum listen to their reasoning and if sound take it into consideration, if contrary to my personal experience in something feel very familiar with may dismiss totally but may not say they are wrong as they may have seen things I haven't. The OP asked about O Rings in conjunction with extractor spring. Also asked if he should add one.

Whats all this hype over an o ring on the extractor spring ? I've been running an a2 sporter 2 since 1990 and never had any extractor issues!
Should I get one?,or is this just the latest you gotta have this horse shit! I should tell the truth,I had one stuck case ten yrs ago,using some ruski hollow points.That stuff was dirty-dirty -dirty.Inever used it again and never had a stuck case after. The poor thing has around 7k rds through it and have never replaced anything,it just keeps going.
Shoot,clean,lube-shoot,clean,lube

In this case I say in direct response NO, if said rifle has only seen one stuck case a decade ago using nasty steel case ammo and none since with 7,000 rounds through rifle. According to barrel, I consider 5.56 AR's to generally have a 10,000 to 20,000 round barrel life except some of the better hammer forged, melonite/deep salt bath barrels will go 25,000 to 30,000 rounds before lose battle accuracy if not just excessively mag dumped and run overly hot for extended periods of time.

ARP says to replace bolts in 6.8 spc II and 22 Nosler rifles every 5,000 rounds and they do not guarantee their Superbolts period if upper receiver has not been squared. If I owned or was the tech for OP's rifle would suggest at 10,000 rounds to replace the bolt with a shot peened HPT/MPI Carpenter 158 bolt, new cam pin and firing pin in same bolt carrier. Would also suggest replacing buffer spring with a chrome silicon flatwire and inspect all other parts plus take a good look at the throat.

If throat and bore looks good keep shooting with the new bolt and bolt carrier parts till see a unacceptable fall off in accuracy. The old bolt, firing pin and cam pin would go in pistol grip with rubber plug and maybe a little RTV silicon as don't want it to fall out and if have to tear plug out to get at bolt if needed it's $5 down the tubes if tear plug. Would not even look under extractor to see if new bolt has O Ring, D Ring, or rubber post as it's all the same unless have a problem with extraction then would dissect to see what's inside.

All this talk that until turns to a mud slinging fest to discern one is discussing military issue select fire M4's and majority of group talking mishmash of civilian M4's. When disagreements hit point of one participant (especially a relatively new member with post count in twenties before knows who the actual trolls and experts really are) to post a picture with such a disrespectful caption does not impress me. I have taken to receding from threads when they degrade to such middle school mentality.

I like comments like this from jhend170:

To add to the above any cartridge that hasn't fully expended its powder load*AND*has a short gas system is just asking for trouble. The powder still burning means that the brass is kept expanded against chamber walls and the extractor is going to catch hell trying to do its job. With the short burn time of the BO running it as a pistol is a lot safer for the extractor because you achieve full burn at about 9" of barrel length (I run a 10.5"), thus pressure drops after that point and brass contracts. With the 5.56 needing just north of 18" for a full powder burn that powder is burning and expanding still as the system tries to cycle, keeping the brass expanded and locked into the chamber walls

I look at a lot of systems designed and built by quality minded companies and which are actually used by operators going in harms way. The only pistol I really want is the SIG MCX Rattler in 300 BO with 9.5" barrel. I seem to remember at one time seem to remember LWRC stepping back from the 8.5" barrel but now have an SBR and pistol in 6.8 spc II with 8.5" barrel but use a proprietary "claw" extractor with dual extractor springs. When swap over to their same length barrel 5.56 pistols as SBR's they are built as piston guns with the 5.56 IC-PDW being very similar to the SIG MCX Rattler with minor differences.

We have had many discussions on dwell time. Personally the shortest AR I own is an 11.5" barrel 5.56 with permanently attached suppressor which raises pressure and to a degree simulates a longer barrel as more gas is trapped in system before bullet exits the can. It has carbine length DI gas system and used an adjustible gas tube, Franklin Armory supplied buffer spring for their binary trigger and MGI Rate Reduction buffer. Runs like a Singer sewing machine and in examination of brass and rifle there seems to be no potential issues to break parts prematurely. In 6.8 have chosen to run 12.5" as short as want even though know LWRC has engineered DI rifles as short as 8.5" but with 25% more powder, larger diameter and heavier projectile that has lower muzzle velocity thus choose to use a 12.5" for my 6.8 SBR to keep as much muzzle velocity as possible in a reasonably compact package.

It may be wrong but everything I do is meticulously thought through on every build. From 11.5" 5.56 to 26" 5.56 and from 12.5" 6.8 to 22" 6.8 as past 22" 6.8 does not pick up enough velocity per inch to justify longer barrels but in 5.56 a 24" or 26" slow twist tube will send 45 to 50 grain varmint bullets as far as the cartridge is capable of. With my 22 Noslers discovered that Army was having issues with their super high velocity M855A1 shooting well in anything but 1:8 twist barrel. 1:8 groups 1/2 the size of 1:7 or 1:9 which is odd that a projectile is so twist rate specific no matter length of barrel. Because of this have two 5.56 rifles and a 22 Nosler with 1:8 barrels now specifically dedicated to M855A1 projectiles.

If pick up all but my junk box builds, made almost totally from free parts abandoned buy owners when upgraded rifles at LGS or uppers only as basic machine shop type work, they are often very mission specific builds but always built primarily with durability most important goal. Some are built with accuracy as number one priority and some blend the two as best I can. The part usually least worry about extractor spring and what widget might be down under extractor with the spring. If rifle is gassed properly with correct weight buffer then it's going to run smooth and soft with now extraction issues.

Have five rifles with binary or Gen 1 super light spring Echo triggers that run like a bump rifle. My Gen 2 Franklin Binary trigger has never had a bolt over hammer issue others complain of. All of them run perfect as pay very close attention to balancing gas system with buffer system. If the two are in harmony a DI rifle will run 100% all the time no matter what is asked of it. I will never feed any of them steel case ammo either. To think of cheap combloc steel cases bashing into the chambers of $700 Noveske or $400 White Oak stainless barrels sends shivers down my spine. Don't even want to do that to a hammer forged melonite treated chamber.

Almost half the AR gadgets on market are useless or designed to cover a build flaw in parts matching. Extended bolt releases, oversize magazine releases, mid grade custom triggers are all useless. Don't add to rifles useability and can slick up a standard milspec trigger better than any $59 to $99 trigger. Can actually slick up milspec triggers to run with most any trigger till get to $250 price range. Have my fair share of Geissele triggers but have to square, hone and polish them to for full effect expect out of a $250 trigger. Not putting O Rings, D Rings or rubber posts under any of my extractors unless shipped that way then not digging them out either.

My walls of text annoy many I know but try to have some use able content to find in them. A picture like is above here and middle school name calling does not reflect the reasons I choose to hang around FAL Files. Can go to barf dot Com or any number of sites for that. I know all have different ways and ideas but a site that potential specialty vendors can visit and not see the users unable to settle differences in opinion with reasonably intelligent discussion would be nice.

lockjaw
October 20, 2017, 20:03
On one end we have a tten-age arm chair commando, and on the other end an experienced gunsmith without a sense of humor who feels that post count holds more weight than tangible experience. I poked jokes because it was apparent that the horse was beat to death, and some armchair commando equated the functionality of an AR to accessories such as 45 degree offset sights and 100 round mags. Sooooo.... if good fun, let's beat the dead horse with a sledgehammmer!

The o-ring is a band aid for unrealistically adverse conditions on a platform that the VAST majority of civilians will never own (legally or otherwise). A band aid doesn't hurt when not needed. That band-aid is sold by some as an "enhancement".... which is brilliant, I respect the marketing angle... it helps they these manufacturers (such as BCM and Noveske) build quality firearms to begin with (the quality builds don't need an o-ring to function reliably). I specifically mentioned civilian builds in regard too-timgs, and I used the M4A1 as an example because Uncle Suger invested millions into heavier weight barrels (at the chamber) ect. to make the rifle more reliable under auto fire and adverse conditions....... but guess what, NO .04 rings!

madrad62
October 23, 2017, 19:34
I guess I got my answer and a whole lot more!
One more question! What do you call that layer of sweat between a West Virginia couple making love?

madrad62
October 24, 2017, 11:17
relative humidity, come on you guys!

MistWolf
October 25, 2017, 20:55
Bottom line- If your extractor spring needs an O ring to work, it needs to be replaced. The O ring was an interim fix used until Colt could redesign the spring. If an O ring is used with the proper spring, there will be too much pressure on the extractor.

If an O ring is used, it cannot be just any O ring. Regular O rings will deteriorate when exposed to the and cleaning chemicals. They will fall apart and the pieces will cause extractor failures.

From personal experience, I know the Colt extractor spring works and is durable. An experienced armorer whose opinion I respect and trust says Sprinco extractor springs are of good quality. I have no experience with Sprinco springs.

hueyville
October 25, 2017, 21:57
Dang it and just spent all day putting O rings in all my AR's. Guess will be taking them out tomorrow. Maybe leave in half and take out of half. Actually been thinking about all the rifles with binary triggers and the ones that are about to have binary added. While have apart and inspecting as always do when making a modification might put a Colt gold spring with black rubber post due to the occasional high duty cycle they see when go mag dump crazy on one. All binary rifles get some form of known heavy duty bolt when swap in the trigger just like the rate reduction buffer if a suppressed SBR. Have White Oak, ARP Superbolts, APF nickle boron and now Sharps Relia-Bolt. Found a slight sale on some American Built Arms Bolt Assemblies which are made on Swiss screw machines and nickle boron coated. Look like good units for price. Retail is $99, Midway has at $89 and found a source for $74.95 which is about same as a WMD bolt. Funny thing is none of these come with an O ring nor doe the few JP $149 price point race bolts but do have dual extractor springs. Supposed to keep running even if one breaks.

Lee Carpentieri
October 26, 2017, 13:08
Hueyville get it right, COPPER colored heavier extractor spring and Black buffer support.

hueyville
October 26, 2017, 16:21
From now on its the Colt copper color spring with black rubber hicky-ma-do or thingy-ma-jig according to mood. Rubber post or extractor support, once someone gets to a parts vendor if order the copper color Colt spring should not matter what terminology used to recognize the black rubber widget. Oops, three improper technical terms for the same part now. Don't think I would put it under an MIM or Chinese made extractor as extra tension might help substandard extractors fail quicker.

ICOM7800
October 26, 2017, 18:57
Bottom line- If your extractor spring needs an O ring to work, it needs to be replaced. The O ring was an interim fix used until Colt could redesign the spring. If an O ring is used with the proper spring, there will be too much pressure on the extractor.

If an O ring is used, it cannot be just any O ring. Regular O rings will deteriorate when exposed to the and cleaning chemicals. They will fall apart and the pieces will cause extractor failures.

From personal experience, I know the Colt extractor spring works and is durable. An experienced armorer whose opinion I respect and trust says Sprinco extractor springs are of good quality. I have no experience with Sprinco springs.

O rings are complete bullshit.Period! I have owned M-16s and Ars since the mid 70s.Never needed an O ring.If you need such crap in your rifal you have other problems.Stick with Colt factory parts.

SAFN49
October 26, 2017, 19:15
O rings are complete bullshit.Period! I have owned M-16s and Ars since the mid 70s.Never needed an O ring.If you need such crap in your rifal you have other problems.Stick with Colt factory parts.

I would agree and disagree. If you are using a 11" Colt M16 with a suppressor, swimming underwater with your Drager unit to the infil point in muddy sandy water, then get in to an extended fire fight, you maybe could use a D ring just for insurance purposes. .

Safe to say other than SEALs you don't, or shouldn't, need one.

ICOM7800
October 26, 2017, 19:19
Yeah I agree I am currently running a Colt mk18 stock upper on my m16.Using colt h3 buffer. No O rings and this functions perfectly in a little over 3,000 rnds.

ICOM7800
October 26, 2017, 19:20
Am using GI al mags only

hueyville
October 27, 2017, 07:10
I would agree and disagree. If you are using a 11" Colt M16 with a suppressor, swimming underwater with your Drager unit to the infil point in muddy sandy water, then get in to an extended fire fight, you maybe could use a D ring just for insurance purposes.
Safe to say other than SEALs you don't, or shouldn't, need one.

Good thing am not an operator. Have two 11.5" AR's with suppressors and binary triggers. Going to be a long time before I go jump into the muddy lake behind my house and going for a swim period, much less with a rifle. Only ratta-tat-tat guns still owned are a Ruger AC556 and pair of M11's. If not scared BATFE might reverse decision in binary might sell the Ruger as found binary to shoot as fast as I want. Can't wait to get my hands on one of the H&K binary trigger packs.