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jhend170
October 03, 2017, 15:01
Of AR-10 type rifles or lowers brands that use magazines for other 7.62 Nato rifles. Prefer those that use FAL magazines, but M-14 or Cetme types would work as well. Looking to start my first large AR type build and figure it makes sense to use one that has milsurp available for. And...GO!

ftierson
October 03, 2017, 17:42
Of AR-10 type rifles or lowers brands that use magazines for other 7.62 Nato rifles. Prefer those that use FAL magazines, but M-14 or Cetme types would work as well. Looking to start my first large AR type build and figure it makes sense to use one that has milsurp available for. And...GO!

As far as I know, the only rifle available that takes FAL mags is the Rock River Arms LAR-8 (and earlier Bushmaster LAR-10).

Forrest

ByronF
October 03, 2017, 18:51
Give up, give in, tune out. Build around the readily-available and inexpensive magpul SLR mags would be my recommendation. They work fine and are pretty much the new standard mag. When was the last FAL mag made, and are they getting cheaper or more expensive?

hueyville
October 03, 2017, 20:25
When was the last FAL mag made, and are they getting cheaper or more expensive?

Very good point, especially if modification to magazine were needed for reliable feeding as end result becomes grinding on perfectly fine working FAL mags.

fnogger
October 03, 2017, 22:46
Wasn't there a bullpup design that took FAL mags?

ftierson
October 03, 2017, 23:48
Wasn't there a bullpup design that took FAL mags?

The KelTec RFB takes FAL mags.

Forrest

ftierson
October 03, 2017, 23:50
Very good point, especially if modification to magazine were needed for reliable feeding as end result becomes grinding on perfectly fine working FAL mags.

But, having said that, the three RRA LAR-8s that I have all work just fine with unmolested Steyr and Israeli mags.

They also work with L1A1 mags, of course...

Forrest

Bug Tussell
October 04, 2017, 06:58
Armalite AR10B takes modified M14 mags. I don't know if the 10B lowers are available.

hueyville
October 04, 2017, 09:03
From Rock River website.

These are inch pattern based RRA LAR-8 magazines. No guarantee is made of their compatability with any rifle other than the RRA LAR-8. Due to progressive improvements in the design of the LAR-8 magwell, some magazines may not drop freely from all LAR-8's and/or may need filing of the spacing tab.

This is from one of about eight separate pages discussing the proprietary nature of AR 10 designs and the myriad of choices, even withing Rock River. It would be nice in a way to be able to use FAL mags in my next rifle buy my others use SR 25 magazines but none are in 7.62 NATO. My original idea was only using AR 10's for custom builds with non standard cartridges. Now have finally sipped the kool-aid and plan to build one with a 308 fluted hammer forged barrel that's been deep salt bath treated for heat resistance and durability. Going to drop a binary trigger in and grab a couple 50 round magazines along with pile of SR 25. Keep building FAL's which spreads my FAL mags thinner unless keep buying and prices are getting silly. Luckily loaded up on milsurp when they were common and inexpensive but added rifles faster than mags. Same with M1a mags as good units are not cheap and want to be able to stick drum mags in it.

My goal is to build as close to a squad level support rifle without huge expense or NFA issues. A burly AR 10 with barrel that will soak up heat (likely get a heavy profile, have flutes machined then send of for a salt bath), three position trigger, low power optic and keep handy for flying pigs and hard shell zombies. Have my 6XC's for accuracy and 338 Federal's to use as hammers plus looking at 7mm projects but due to preponderance of 7.62 NATO ammo in stock, fact that binary trigger is almost a drop in deal it's too attractive to not pursue. A stack of 50 round mags and binary capability seems like a battle rifle that's required in the fleet. Snap a can on it, sit on a rest and even wife could run it. Likely do an A2 stock with bipod so it's ready to set up and lay down rounds. Now question is do I skip the 7mm's and build a few NATO rifles instead.

ftierson
October 04, 2017, 11:53
From Rock River website.



This is from one of about eight separate pages discussing the proprietary nature of AR 10 designs and the myriad of choices, even withing Rock River. It would be nice in a way to be able to use FAL mags in my next rifle buy my others use SR 25 magazines but none are in 7.62 NATO. My original idea was only using AR 10's for custom builds with non standard cartridges. Now have finally sipped the kool-aid and plan to build one with a 308 fluted hammer forged barrel that's been deep salt bath treated for heat resistance and durability. Going to drop a binary trigger in and grab a couple 50 round magazines along with pile of SR 25. Keep building FAL's which spreads my FAL mags thinner unless keep buying and prices are getting silly. Luckily loaded up on milsurp when they were common and inexpensive but added rifles faster than mags. Same with M1a mags as good units are not cheap and want to be able to stick drum mags in it.

My goal is to build as close to a squad level support rifle without huge expense or NFA issues. A burly AR 10 with barrel that will soak up heat (likely get a heavy profile, have flutes machined then send of for a salt bath), three position trigger, low power optic and keep handy for flying pigs and hard shell zombies. Have my 6XC's for accuracy and 338 Federal's to use as hammers plus looking at 7mm projects but due to preponderance of 7.62 NATO ammo in stock, fact that binary trigger is almost a drop in deal it's too attractive to not pursue. A stack of 50 round mags and binary capability seems like a battle rifle that's required in the fleet. Snap a can on it, sit on a rest and even wife could run it. Likely do an A2 stock with bipod so it's ready to set up and lay down rounds. Now question is do I skip the 7mm's and build a few NATO rifles instead.

Well, as illustrated here, paragraphs can be your friend when it comes to meaning.

Your 'quote' from the RRA website was originally in two paragraphs. The first (including the first two sentences in your quote) refers to the Thermold plastic FAL mags that RRA currently ships with their rifles. The rest refers to FAL mags in general...

I only speak from my experience when saying that the RRA LAR-8 rifles I have work fine with Steyr and Israeli unmolested mags. There are a shitload of different mags out there, including Korean and DSA and other crappy mags that don't even work in FALs, so RRA has to be pretty general in mentioning what may be necessary to make metal mags work in their rifles.

The RRA LAR-8, like most ARs, has the magazine inserted straight up into the magwell instead of the rocking motion, front to back, of the mag insertion in the FAL. Thus, the LAR-8 magwell is 'cut' for the L1A1 mag since the front retaining tab on the L1A1 mag is larger than the metric beak. Since, in the LAR-8, the mag is only retained by the mag-catch (like metric mags are retained when used in L1A1 receivers), the LAR-8 can use either metric or L1A1 mags.

As far as I know, both the KelTec RFB and the RRA LAR-8 are currently shipped with Thermold metric FAL mags. And we all know the stories about Thermold mags...

The OP asked a very specific question, which I attempted to answer. I have no experience with HK G3 mags in ARs or, for that matter, with M14 mags in ARs, so I didn't comment on that... The question was not one about my opinion about life. Having said that, and while I'm very happy with the RRA LAR-8s and the KelTec RFB that I have, I would (today) 'standardize' on the Magpul 7.62mm mag if building 7.62mm AR-type rifles...

Just sayin'...

Forrest

PS I should also mention that the FAL mags that I use are all like new and not beat-to-shit like some that are sold today. That fact also should be kept in mind when I mention rifles working with the FAL mags. I also don't use the Thermold FAL mags (although they might work, I don't bother...)

the gman
October 04, 2017, 17:53
Of AR-10 type rifles or lowers brands that use magazines for other 7.62 Nato rifles. Prefer those that use FAL magazines, but M-14 or Cetme types would work as well. Looking to start my first large AR type build and figure it makes sense to use one that has milsurp available for. And...GO!

CMMG used to make a lower that took G3 mags but IIRC, the upper needed some slight mods to make it properly function. They disappeared from the market some years ago due to a lack of demand.

Today, the KAC/DPMS/Original AR10 pattern mags are the only lowers worth building on. Mags are stupid cheap with either metal or poly mags for well under $20 a pop. Aim Surplus has MagPul mags for under $20 with free shipping, Hex Mags for $17 (out of stock currently) and C Products stainless mags for $16. The C Products are damn good value. I had some input in their design over a decade ago because I wanted them to avoid the issues of the DPMS mags which are folded so the body overlaps in the front. This, based on advice given to me from the SF sniper school, limits the ability to use M118LR in DPMS mags. I passed this info on to Barry and his partner at C Products and they made their mags differently. The company has gone through changes over the years but the mags are still quality items and worthy of consideration.

I don't and won't buy Lancer mags; too expensive for what they are. They provided some of their early production to LWRC for testing in 2007. We loaded them with dummy rounds and dropped them from waist height onto a carpeted floor and the lips broke right off on the first drop. That's why Lancer mags now have the reinforcing of a metal top on them.

Just buy P Mags or C Products and call it good... :biggrin:

the gman
October 04, 2017, 18:08
I have a Bushmaster BAR-10 which they licensed from RRA. It runs like a champ with either L1A1 mags or metric FAL mags that are in spec. I don't shoot it that much because I am concerned the bolt might break as there was an internet rumor about such happenings some years ago. Now RRA are back making the LAR-8, I might ask them about a spare bolt if they have some at reasonable pricing. However, given the prices of AR parts these days, I might just leave it in the safe and build another .308 AR... :p;):D

AZ Deuce
October 04, 2017, 18:09
I had two RRA LAR-8s a 20" Standard Operator, and a 16" neither one were reliable with surplus Metric FAL mags, some worked better than others but not well enough to make me feel secure should a SHTF Scenario arise. It however loved Inch magazines and ran 100% with them, of course it loves the Thermolds, those work 100% too.

Kind of ruined my purpose of buying her when it didn't like any of the over 80 Metric mags I had, I had to go buy a couple Inch mags (just to see if they would work - THEY DO!) but by then the Thermolds were easily obtainable and I went that way.

I sold the 16 incher and replaced it with a AR10 Defender, which is lighter, has a barrel twist more suitable for surplus ammo, and uses P-Mags. I have the Defender set up as a combat weapon. The 20" LAR-8 has a Cryno'd barrel that when using 168 or 175 Match rounds will shoot 1/2" MOA so I kept that one as my sniper/DMR rifle, and just bit the bullet and bought 10 Thermolds for it, and I still have the two Inch mags.

Knowing what I know now about 308 ARs I'd have probably gone straight Armalite, but only with the newer Model As that take the P-Mags which didn't exist when I first got the RRA. Plus I doubt the Armalite's 1/11.25 Twist rate would come close to what the 1/10 in my RRA can do with match ammo. But I could get a 1/10 twist custom barrel for the Armalite and it would probably come pretty close to the LAR-8.

If you want an out of the box semi-sniper rifle RRA's 20" LAR-8 with a free float HG is the way to go, for not a terrible sum of money, but forget about running Metric FAL mags, Inch and Thermolds were my go to mags, but after reading one writers comments above he has had good luck with metric mags...so your mileage may vary, but for me it didn't.

ftierson
October 04, 2017, 20:55
If you want an out of the box semi-sniper rifle RRA's 20" LAR-8 with a free float HG is the way to go, for not a terrible sum of money, but forget about running Metric FAL mags, Inch and Thermolds were my go to mags, but after reading one writers comments above he has had good luck with metric mags...so your mileage may vary, but for me it didn't.

Well, to be completely fair, I should also mention that the three LAR-8s that I have (two LAR-8A4 and one LAR-8A2, all three 20 inchers) are very early Rock River Arms guns. I was on the RRA list for several years while they worked out the final kinks in the redesign of their Bushmaster BAR-10 design and had to wait even longer when Armalite sued them for using LAR-10 (which is why they ended up with LAR-8, of course).

I mention this because I've heard claims that the early guns had tight magwells that they finagled a little in later production. My rifles work with Steyr and Israeli mags (as a matter of fact, they ones that I have were shipped from RRA with new Israeli mags). Whether more recent production has more problems with military mags or not is something that I cannot fairly address, except to say that we've sold a few through the shop and have never had complaints about feeding from customers. I have no idea what kind of mags they were using. And, with our shitty 15rd mag law in Colorado now, mags become more of a problem with new guns...

Forrest

ftierson
October 04, 2017, 21:25
I have a Bushmaster BAR-10 which they licensed from RRA. It runs like a champ with either L1A1 mags or metric FAL mags that are in spec. I don't shoot it that much because I am concerned the bolt might break as there was an internet rumor about such happenings some years ago. Now RRA are back making the LAR-8, I might ask them about a spare bolt if they have some at reasonable pricing. However, given the prices of AR parts these days, I might just leave it in the safe and build another .308 AR... :p;):D

By the way, George, did you happen to see the posts on AR15.com a number of years ago from the government sponsored animal culling shooter in Australia who shot hundreds of thousands of unwanted animals (horses and cattle and sheep and numerous others) from a helicopter using a Bushmaster BAR-10? I can't remember his name off the top of my head but, if memory serves me, the constant problem he had was replacing extractors and extractor pins. I don't ever remember him mentioning bolt problems (although I've also heard the internet rumors).

Have fun shooting your BAR-10... :)

Forrest

jhend170
October 06, 2017, 14:14
Thanks for all the responses gents. I happen to have a "few" FAL mags already, and for the sake of keeping things simple it made sense to build that way. Now, not so sure.

My thinking was I'd still buy more mags, but they would then serve dual purpose as when SHTF and the brain is racing grabbing the wrong mag is an easy thing to do and a difficult thing to fix under extreme duress. A great example of this were the Trapdoors that Custer's men had. Loading a single round into one seems as simple as loading a fresh mag, but the panic deathly situations can induce create a need for absolute robotic basal thinking, as problem solving (i.e. grabbed the wrong f'ing mag) becomes crazy difficult in those situations. Fewer mag types means lowered likelihood of one creating problems for themselves.

As I have the M1a and the FAL those were my first choices, followed by the G3 based on surplus magazine prices alone. Being that the AR10 has no standard my hopes were with the west still wild I'd fairly easily find what I'd hoped to.

Just to add to the difficulty, I'm also wanting an external piston for the upper. As a lefty that shoots all righty semis pistons help keep oil off my glasses. I know AA makes an upper, but need to examine what it's compatible with.

Anyway, again, thanks for the input gents. Guess I have some thinking to do.

hueyville
October 06, 2017, 15:44
Good milsurp FAL mags are going up in price fairly quickly of late. SR 25 is static or can catch on sale. If have enough FAL mags to feed your FAL but not another then would do some personal price checking on magazines. Sarco only has repops for $18 each. Ernst Armory is $40 each in unissued, $25 for "good" condition, $20 for fair and $13 for "project mags" with dents up to two inches. As in don't work, have to fix it. Up to a year ago I was paying $7.99 and less for good to excellent metrics. Inch mags are $44 to $70 at Ernst. Centerfire, Aim and Falcon shows sold out on all FAL mags. Only other option is KCI or DSA mags that have to fix to make work or hope Moses gets his act together. You can pick them up in marketplace here and on Gunbroker but cheapest I see them on Gunbroker is about $30 each for decent milsurp. KCI aka Korean recycled beer cans are ten bucks but are not worth ten bucks.

Somehow got lucky and was adding a dozen or two to all my Centerfire orders till about a year ago entered 24 and said not in stock, kept lowering number till hit less than 10 and that was last I saw from them. They had run a sale just a few months before where I bought quite a few but in hindsight not enough. Had purchased all of the Ernst inch tabs had in stock and was going to modify metrics to inch, refinish and sell. Now metrics are climbing, inch are static so afraid to modify any and buying all the inch I can when find fair price but can buy two or five AR 10 mags for price of a single FAL mag now according to condition of the FAL mags. IF someone knows where good milsurp FAL mags can be found for $10 or under I would like to know and add more. Have about 120 metric and about same in metrics but have not seen any at a buy price in months except from a guy in the Ukraine and expect eventually the post office or customs will seize a package and that will be the end of those.

hueyville
October 16, 2017, 09:48
So am getting real close to finally building a 7.62 NATO AR 10. Since the 6XC's and 338 Federal's ran don't see where a build in their designed cartridge will be a big issue except have a couple questions. First is installing a binary trigger, know the trigger install will be fine but has anyone done this and then dealt with any issues in rifle running consistent in binary. Second for moment not going to set up for suppressor, want the most aggressive muzzle brake can possibly get in 30 caliber. If decide to run a mag dump with a drum do not want to keep pausing to recover from muzzle climb and to do this without hanging a weight forward of balance point.

badzero
November 10, 2017, 12:16
I had two RRA LAR-8s a 20" Standard Operator, and a 16" neither one were reliable with surplus Metric FAL mags, some worked better than others but not well enough to make me feel secure should a SHTF Scenario arise. It however loved Inch magazines and ran 100% with them, of course it loves the Thermolds, those work 100% too.

Kind of ruined my purpose of buying her when it didn't like any of the over 80 Metric mags I had, I had to go buy a couple Inch mags (just to see if they would work - THEY DO!) but by then the Thermolds were easily obtainable and I went that way.

I sold the 16 incher and replaced it with a AR10 Defender, which is lighter, has a barrel twist more suitable for surplus ammo, and uses P-Mags. I have the Defender set up as a combat weapon. The 20" LAR-8 has a Cryno'd barrel that when using 168 or 175 Match rounds will shoot 1/2" MOA so I kept that one as my sniper/DMR rifle, and just bit the bullet and bought 10 Thermolds for it, and I still have the two Inch mags.

Knowing what I know now about 308 ARs I'd have probably gone straight Armalite, but only with the newer Model As that take the P-Mags which didn't exist when I first got the RRA. Plus I doubt the Armalite's 1/11.25 Twist rate would come close to what the 1/10 in my RRA can do with match ammo. But I could get a 1/10 twist custom barrel for the Armalite and it would probably come pretty close to the LAR-8.

If you want an out of the box semi-sniper rifle RRA's 20" LAR-8 with a free float HG is the way to go, for not a terrible sum of money, but forget about running Metric FAL mags, Inch and Thermolds were my go to mags, but after reading one writers comments above he has had good luck with metric mags...so your mileage may vary, but for me it didn't.

From what I have found an ar10 barrel is an ar10 barrel. My sons Aero has an Armalite match barrel on it and it runs flawlessly.