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Old Sarge
September 23, 2017, 10:23
Hi All
So I have been thinking that I would like to have the option to shoot 22LR out of my ARs. So as I see it there are a couple of options

1, 22LR conversion unit in my standard AR. I understand that this works but might not be the best option due to the possibility of the 22LR fouling the gas tube? Several different makers of conversion units and mags, any recommendations on one?

2, a dedicated upper for 22LR. The better option as I understand but a bit more expensive and not as mobile (It will fit in a Rucksack but not the pocket of one). Any recordation's on who to buy or build it?

3, buy a 22LR model of AR. From what I have read this may be the best option. But it involves another whole gun. Which make and model would you recommend?

Thanks for your help on this
Old Sarge

hueyville
September 23, 2017, 12:47
Number 3. Name brand model your LGS stocks so if have any issues just take it back where it came from and hand across counter. Won't have a 22 upper on your lower when the "surprise zombies" show up as they seldom mail out notices of intent anymore. (Darn world going to heck when zombies stop showing respect) Also less swapping things around as eventually steel pins moving in aluminum holes wear, less chance of dropping a chunk of you Snickers Bar in rifle while swapping or all sorts of stupid stuff happens more you swap parts around. According to a person that cannot be named put a 22 rimfire in the hands of a 14 year old girl and she can help you stand of SEAL Team Six out to 500 yards. If have dedicated rifle have two guns instead of one. Rather have my wife backing me with a rimfire AR than holding an upp like a bat because it has no lower. When go to range and shoot, if your AR gets hot can sit it in rack and swap to the rim fire while cools and not try hot-swapping uppers in public where best case can embarrass yourself if do something dumb. Would find myself trying to stick 5.56 mags into rifle with 22 LR upper installed or 22 LR mags with 5.56 upper and while neither will cause a Kaboom, not looking stupid at the range is hard enough for me.

I thought the rim fire AR was a silly concept till played with one. If can afford to burn rimfire cheaper than full size cartridge or have an issue with limited safe range/backstop a rimfire again shines. It being same ergonomics as a full size rifle gives you familiarity from one to the other.

Option 4. Buy a recommended rimfire upper on a good clearance sale and build a lower for it. My wife can assemble a lower if given a little guidance. Now your another clearance sale away from your second full size Ar then repeat till wife threatens divorce or run out of room to add more vaults. I would most likely take this route as can build or buy a decent lower for ~$100. $30 for lower receiver, $30 for trigger group and $40 for lower build kit sans trigger. Just looked, Palmetto has a Magpul MOE Edition complete lower for $149 with free shipping. Right there may be your start.

jam762
September 23, 2017, 12:55
I have two of the three(1 & 3)options above and would have to say I prefer #3.

I have one of the Walther/Colt AR15 .22 cal. It eats everything I've feed it, no malfunction in the 3 or so years that I've had it. My only complaint is that the BCG is kind of a pain to get out.

badzero
September 23, 2017, 13:11
The walther/colt option also has an adjustment to tailor it to different loads if you find one that gives you problems, I haven't yet and have run some cheap stuff through it.

michael_g927
September 24, 2017, 02:34
Back in the 80's i had an original Colt .22lr conversion kit that came with my HBAR. Wish i still had that one.
Anyway. I never experienced any leading of my bore or gas port. What i did experience was no brand ammo seemed to shoot reasonable groups. As a young soldier i could not figure out why the rifle would throw 5.56 very well but not .22lr of any brand.
About 10 years ago i got this idea to build .22lr versions of my war bangers so i could use the very rigs(i.e. mag pouches, holsters, etc) and shoot cheap at $8.88/550 rds.
This is something my MkIII and 10/22 failed at.
Today i understand the relationship between projectile weight/length, amd twist rate/ rpm.
So i elected to build a dedicated .22lr upper. I used all CMMG equipment. CDNN sells the mags for 8 or 9 bucks. The only parts in that upper that are standard are the reciever and forearm. The barrel, bolt, and charging handle are CMMG. The lower is absolutely standard. Very good way to go.
Cmmg is dead reliable. And the rifle is EXACTLY like my other rifles.
I also use Advantage Arms slides on my G17.
In the end, my .22lr AR is a bit more expensive than an M&P 15/22. But i feel its quality is better than the S&W as well.

ByronF
September 24, 2017, 06:10
I'm odd man out here, preferring the dedicated upper. I started with a CMMG conversion. Ran it quite a while that way. Then got a CMMG dedicated barrel and feed ramp collar (replaces the dummy cartridge on the conversion kit). Put it into a standard flattop upper with some hand guards and ended with a dedicated upper. So I evolved from conversion to a dedicated upper.

The dedicated upper is a real firearm made of metal. Can make it into a 5.56 without much trouble. I don't care for the plastic 22 AR rifles, which feel like fragile toys to me

Invictus77
September 24, 2017, 06:26
S&W MP15-22

LYCAN
September 24, 2017, 07:04
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417305

michael_g927
September 24, 2017, 22:21
I tend to agree with Bryan. I like dedicated real metal guns and mags. I know there arevguys enjoying the plastic 80% kits. They will do their job. How long? Yet to be determined.
If a guy likes the repli 22s and such, thats cool. God knows my dedicated costed 3 or 4 times what the the M&P 15/22 would cost. Now is my dedicated performing that much better? I doubt it.

yellowhand
September 25, 2017, 00:42
I run the Ciener (sp) set up and it feeds and works just fine.
CDNN sells the mags, which look just like regular 30 round AR mags for 8 bucks on sale and they work great.

No fouling issues at all.
Kids love it.

Got a slide fire stock, :facepalm: a gift, on another lower/rifle and one day dropped in the 22 conversion to see if it would run.

It ran fine, empties mags far faster than you can load them.:D

TenTea
September 25, 2017, 06:27
Bought an Airforce (Rodman) conversion unit in the 90's at a gunshow that was stellar. Ran on rifle gas, had a functional bolt hold open and a rifled chamber insert...a work of art. Mags were only 10 rounds but indestructible teflon polymer with a built in loader button. Sold after teaching my 10 year old cousin to shoot with an old Bushmaster A1. He is now trained as a US Army sniper.

Then (since the turn of the 21st century) had a nice dedicated Tactical Solutions M4 type upper that used Black Dog Mags (BDM's). Very reliable, mucho fun with an Aimpoint and made Dad giggle like a schoolgirl, chasing golf balls downrange. Thousands and thousands of rounds downrange for about 5 years and broke about 5 firing pins, too. A guy named Colt at TacSol kept sending me gratis replacements and the last time just sent me 3 of them, lol. I sold this to a friend after his daughter was born as he wanted it for her to have someday.

https://www.tacticalsol.com/ar-22-series-uppers/eq46z6qmtcp7bzxzfyb7xfzy29abez

Fast forward to today and I'm awaiting delivery of an M261 Army conversion unit. Built like tanks and use the 10 round steel magazine inserts or BDM's for higher capacity. They are strictly blowback operation. I have either a carbine with 1:12 twist barrel or a rifle with 1:14 twist to use it in, so should see acceptable accuracy on target. I also have a bunch of vintage 20 round magazines to use with the inserts.

I decided to go with the Army version versus the Airforce version due to the availability of spare parts (some vs none) and the cost of vintage magazines ($10-$20 vs $50-$75). The BDM's are available for the M261 at $15 right now, too. Anyhow, I've not owned an M261 and am anxious to see how it will stack up.

If I was a little more flush, I would probably go with a Compass Lake Engineering upper. They use the M261 with their stuff. I'm told their redesigned firing pin should last forever in the Army unit, so I'm getting one of those.

http://www.compasslake.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22&zenid=f78c33c18e0437b568f66ccf9f8db714

hueyville
September 25, 2017, 06:46
(Trim)
Got a slide fire stock, :facepalm: a gift, on another lower/rifle and one day dropped in the 22 conversion to see if it would run.
It ran fine, empties mags far faster than you can load them.:D

Purchased total of five Slidefire stocks in about a six month period during the mad post 2015 Christmas sell off time. Passed three off at a profit and left me with two free. Combined with a pair of free 16" take off barrels, some junk box parts, $35 lowers, $69 Palmetto bolts and had a matched pair of the things at just about $175 each. Took a buffer swap or two to make them happy across a broad range of ammo then to the rear of a vault they went. Hard shell zombie hoards start flying like pigs with wings and start handing them out with 55 grain milsurp. They are a hoot albeit expensive to run if bring along in a crowd. About only time bring one out now is when trying to convince a friend to buy a Gen 3 binary trigger rather than a Slidefire stock. That said tripped across a used AK compatible Slidefire recently and would like to find another as no binary triggers yet and have ◊39 ammo (including steel case/cast bullet reloads) piled up by the metric ton. AK with Slidefire, a few spam cans of steel core ammo would turn even a teenage girl into a scary opponent from behind good cover. So don't be ashamed of silly toys, bet when hand it off with the rimfire upper the kids smiles are worth the empty bricks of Thunderbolts or whatever have left from pre Sandy Hook 9.95 per 500 days.

jhend170
September 25, 2017, 08:39
All about purpose... training on the cheap? Get a conversion or build/buy a similar setup in .22 to your defensive piece. This way you know the ergos, and the feel of the trigger.

If it's just for paper punching then another complete .22 rifle is in order, because guns. More might not be the answer, but I'm exploring it as an option.

michael_g927
September 26, 2017, 22:45
For many many years i used Ruger .22s. I always knew it wasnt real training. About the time the AR conversions were really taking off, i knew that was the ticket.
At first i built the upper, but like my Advantage Arms Glock upper (which gets its new G17 lower very soon) i just couldnot let it be "just an upper". It wasnt long and had a lower all done up.
There is something to be said for being able to swap mags out in your gear and pistols in your holster and whala, instant training on the cheap.
Even though .22 is not as cheap as 8.88/550rds any more,it still way cheaper than centerfire.

Falfan2017
September 27, 2017, 07:46
How about this option. Reload really cheap .223. You can get it down to about 10-11 cents per round and plink with that for hardly any more than 22lr and you get the actual experience of shooting a real caliber

idsubgun
September 27, 2017, 08:54
I went the Tactical Solutions AR-22 Lightweight option and put in on a custom TacSol lower. We had them custom made when I was shop supervisor.

I'm not a big fan of just having uppers, or parts of another gun, and prefer to just have the complete firearm. After all, AR lowers are dirt cheap now so why have just an upper?



https://i.imgur.com/i6CqPWS.jpg

Custom engraved TacSol AR lower:

https://i.imgur.com/ZPcnv94.jpg

TenTea
September 27, 2017, 09:31
How about this option. Reload really cheap .223. You can get it down to about 10-11 cents per round and plink with that for hardly any more than 22lr and you get the actual experience of shooting a real caliber

Not a real *caliber* he says... ;)

http://www.nowaterriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Laughing-Frog-Meme-09.jpg

michael_g927
September 27, 2017, 11:39
I agree, it was not a stellar or well thought out remark. I can only give it credit if talking about longer range practice. And even then .22lr has long been used on scaled down distances for training on a budget. The only thing .22lr does not give the shooter is realistic environmental and wind training.
So at .10 a shot, we are putting rounds on our very expensive weapons for marginal at best performing ammo for training?
But at .05 a round same training can be had at the same distances, yet be done in more places with concern to safety and noise.
Some people reload for minimal cost and standards. I reload to get the best performance at the best price.
And lastly, what you recieve at .10 a round in 5 56 is hardly worth my time (which is the real expense here) to sit and make, when same training can be done for (what i consider way too expensive) nickel a shot .22. And no time unvested.

Falfan2017
September 27, 2017, 12:10
Not a real *caliber* he says... ;)

http://www.nowaterriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Laughing-Frog-Meme-09.jpg

I knew that would happen lol

Falfan2017
September 27, 2017, 12:13
I agree, it was not a stellar or well thought out remark. I can only give it credit if talking about longer range practice. And even then .22lr has long been used on scaled down distances for training on a budget. The only thing .22lr does not give the shooter is realistic environmental and wind training.
So at .10 a shot, we are putting rounds on our very expensive weapons for marginal at best performing ammo for training?
But at .05 a round same training can be had at the same distances, yet be done in more places with concern to safety and noise.
Some people reload for minimal cost and standards. I reload to get the best performance at the best price.
And lastly, what you recieve at .10 a round in 5 56 is hardly worth my time (which is the real expense here) to sit and make, when same training can be done for (what i consider way too expensive) nickel a shot .22. And no time unvested.

Here's my thinking. Are you going to be practicing slow shooting at 150 yards or less? If so why? Anybody can make good shots at 150 or less if they have time. Are you going to be practing mid range shooting? Judging drop, wind etc? Can't do that with a 22lr. Are you going to be practicing tactical shooting? Waste of time with a 22lr your 223 will have more recoil and muzzle rise so better get used to that.

For a 200$ upper to payoff you'd have to buy 4000 rounds of 22lr. The math just doesn't work out. What could you possibly do with 4000 rounds of 22lr that would allow you to do anything practical with an ar? Also 5 cents is cheap crummy 22lr. Try shooting low grade 22 vs cci at 200 yards. You'll want the cci. Well that's almost 10 cents a round right there.

hueyville
September 27, 2017, 14:26
Right now can buy entry level match ammo at about a penny per round more than cheapest rimfire. For past 30+ years every time went in Wallyworld put a brick of whatever their cheapest 22 rimfire was in buggy then when started carrying 325 round cartons of Federal Automatch added one of those too. Federal Automatch is cheapest ammo will shoot and seldom use it. Why had six figures of rimfire in the neckbeard pile when Sandy Hook happened. I still do its just most of what I have is not fit to shoot. How do you practice with inconsistent ammunition? Its trade bait only.

Never sweated running out of rimfire but began worrying about good rimfire. Match ammo has normalized much quicker than cheap variety. I kill small varmints with 60 grain Aguila Sniper Subsonic or their 40 grain Aguila Rifle Match (1080 fps and many of my rifles have it slowed down to 1050 so no sonic crack) if suppressor papers say "not warrantied for use with 60 grain Aguila Sniper Subsonic" due to end strike issues, about half exclude the 60 grain. Shoot a lot of CCI Green Tag, Federal Premium Ultra Match, Ely Target (found bricks for 99.99 when people were still paying $60 to $70 for Thunderbolts). Ordered some Aguila Pistol Match and Rifle Match just this week both for just $45 per brick with free shipping coupon. Nine cents a round gets me entry level match so why pay seven cents for crap? 13 to 17 cents gets me pretty good rimfire. When really care its more than centerfire.

Can shoot good centerfire reloads for same price or less then acceptable rinfire. When pull out a rimfire have only two goals, kill small varmints quietly and effectively or practicing true marksmanship. Running a rifle with $200 in trigger components and $300 barrel to actually get my breathing, finger position on trigger correct (my biggest consistent shooting error is too little trigger pressure and using finger tip instead of pad as afraid of hooking and jerking the trigger) along with stance have to know that every off target round is on me and not the ammo or practice is wasted time. Same with rimfire pistol, usually shoot a Smith Model 41 or a nice wheel gun and can't have bullets going where they choose but where I put them for better or worse. Do not believe practicing with cheapest ammo possible is teaching anyone marksmanship. Test each gun, find the load from a rest it will one hole group at 25 yards and assign it to that gun. Have one that will only one hole with green tags or very expensive ammo and got real scared about running out of Green Tags. Most of my trading was bulk cheap bricks for single match bricks during panic. LGS would get in some match and I would take five bricks of cheap or more. Their customers wanted volume, not quality at the time.

Don't need to increase familiarity with my AR rifles. After 35 years of always owning at least a couple and shooting them along with having one in the truck and handling daily for 25 years need work on basic skills. Match grade rimfire pistols and rifles with match grade ammo. Otherwise shoot 38 special wadcutters out of tuned wheel guns or cast SWC's out of 1911's. Still at a nickle to load 45 and 3.3 cents for 38 special wadcutters that will cut overlapping holes till I mess it up. Whatever you do, buy your upper or rifle based on reputation and use ammo that will help you become a better marksman because if unable to put 10 rounds though at best a small cloverleaf at 25 yards then need to keep practicing till you can. If equipment doesn't allow it have wasted the cheap ammo and time.

My Boy Scouts get free ammo I pay for shoot Federal Automatch. If they can't qualify for their marksmanship merit badge in a day they will get frustrated, embarrassed and likely never gain an interest in guns. After a day with "Mr. Michael" even the kid who never picked up a gun in their life has their badge. If don't will have an excuse not to show up next trip out till end of scouting career. Learned that lesson fast and purchased some decent iron sight rifles from Chipmunk size to full size and in between and brought good ammo. Nothing worse than spending over 50% of instruction time with one kid who is scared of the rifle because of parents programming to still be shooting when all the others are done as pressure is immense on them. When have one that is super challenged will soon examine rifle and say something about a defect, go to truck, grab one of "my" rifles and a box of Federal Premium Ultra Match that will one hole group at 100 yards and get them qualified. Nothing worse than messing a kid up first day ever holds a gun and same for me. Do not need negative reinforcement. Need to know if developed a quirk in stance or trigger pull and correct it fast. Cheap ammo and cheap rimfire guns are my worst enemy.

michael_g927
September 27, 2017, 16:07
Does run and gun type of shooting under 100 yards require one hole quality ammo while shooting from every wacky position? No.
Does 5.56 recoil require special training? No. If you think so, you might need to eat some wheaties.
By your thinking, guys would be wrong to train with pistol caliber carbines (which has exploded since the rimfire shortage). These same guys told me my 9mm AR wont shoot across the street. Mine rings chest size gongs regularly at 335 yards. At 350 it is not reliable. But even at 350 the bullet strilkes the gong like a ballpeen hammer! Others using real optics (i have eotech) are going over 450.
My buddy got the new Savage .22 bolt gun. We shot plates out to 150. My carbine hit everything his boltgun did. I once built a 10/22 with a SWFA SS10X42M on it. Thing was insaine. My dope card ended at 385. Guess had i used something better than federal bulk, maybe coulda done 450.
Point is, with .22lr coming back, dedicated guns make alot of sense. Now if your funds were limited, maybe not.
So if you think my upper took 4000 rounds to pay for itself, great. Only took 2 months!!! So the last 17 months it has been paying me!!!
But then again, if break even is at 4000 rounds, i can see why it would seem alot to someone who will never put 4000 on a gun in the first place.
Got my 9mm carbine in 2010. I think i hit break even after the second school i ever took it to.
Your mileage may vary.

Falfan2017
September 27, 2017, 16:24
If you have a carbine in 22lr you can pull the trigger as fast as you can with no muzzle rise and a decent group. With a standard ar carbine in 556 even though there isn't much felt recoil the barrel still rises or moves so without a lot of practice shooting 5.56 they won't group well shooting fast. That's why I don't think it's worthwhile to practice running and gunning with a 22.
Also what's the point of shooting a 22 at 300 yards. Totally different dope profile than a .223 and if you actually wanted to accomplish something with your round your 22 won't be too effective at that range.

Not sure what 9mm carries have to do with this. I'd shoot and train with a 9mm carbine long before I'd mess with a 22

hueyville
September 27, 2017, 17:20
Have no problem with a rimfire AR style rifle if using as a toy or especially to let wives and kids learn ergonomics of the rifle. But if goal is low cost training for when you need your full power AR then it's going to be counterproductive. If suddenly someone who has done 70% of their training with a rimfire is thrown to wolves their gun becomes a different animal in 5.56 except in looks and ergonomics. Put a 22 upper on your AR, shoot for a month daily till drillimg one hole groups off hand at 25 yards then slap the 5.56 upper on it and head for a Service Rifle match. Going to fall apart on the dope. Practice regularly with an inaccurate system and will have no idea if error on the range is in the system or induced by the shooter. What does eating Wheaties have to do with anything on Poodle Shooters? If want to connect up with a coyote past 400 yards cold bore with a crosswind on unlevel terrain better have every aspect of trigger discipline to dope worked out with system in hand.

Have several rimfire guns that will shoot much better than I can unless from a rest. Regularly shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with a couple but all I am trying to accomplish is focus on basic principles of marksmanship across the board especially in places with limited range or hardened backstop for centerfire. Can stand and work my offhand shooting technique well with a tuned 10/22 at 60 feet in my indoor range at work or 25 feet with handgun in basement of house. I just need a good trigger, accurate barrel and consistent ammo. Then if have a bad habit or technique issue giving me an trouble can find it work on trigger disciple, breathing, timing release of shot, stance or whatever can figure it out without having to load up the range kit and go somewhere other than home or work to figure out what's gone loopy. Marksmanship principles will cross platforms.

If I were interested in really shooting well would have to hire a coach. Hard to observe and critique your self but with rimfire can work on my technique in many more places than centerfire. All my students have class two sessions, dry fire next three lessons before move to rimfire for three sessions then when pick up first centerfire just have to remember their basics and not let recoil upset the basics. Worst thing in world is take on someone that the class they took taught them to flinch and have to untrain them first. When raced bicycles had a coach, when climbed competatively had a coach, Olympic shooters have coaches. Doubt the coach brings Remmy Thunderbolts to range sessions.

yellowhand
September 27, 2017, 18:10
PSA flyer today has a nice dedicated upper 22lr with charging handle and bcg for about 350.00

Upper looks nice, didn't pay attention to which magazine it uses.

TenTea
September 27, 2017, 18:14
22's are fun. Don't forget the fun. ;)

hueyville
September 27, 2017, 23:12
22's are fun. Don't forget the fun. ;)

Only if bullets land where aim if do job correctly.

michael_g927
September 27, 2017, 23:45
Falfan. Where to start. The 22lr trajectory is different from what? A 223 trajectory is different from what? A .300WM trajectory is different from what? A .338 LM trajectory is differenr from what? None of them are the same as .223. Guess shooting them is a waste of time.
Shooting .22lr at distances of 300yds is a very good simulation of .308 at 1000. Today we shoot Beeman R1 springguns in .177 and .22 at distances over 100 yds. I always akined every 10 yards in an airgun as 100 yards in a centerfire.
Cool thing about airguns is that just because a guy can shoot powderburners, in no way means he can shoot airguns. But the reverse is not true. A guy that shoots airguns well almost always is a rockstar with powderburners.
What i am getting at is, i realize your opnion of sub caliber training is low. You mighr revisit the idea. And one more thing. There are plenty of videos of .22 passing thru fully clothed frozen turkeys at 400 plus yards. You think you are tougher at 300 yards than a frozen turkey is at 400?
I have spent years doing these things you opine on.
If you do not wish to become experienced in these endevors, wht comment or poo poo those that do?

hueyville
September 28, 2017, 04:17
Wonder how often the coach of W.E.G.'s Service Rifle Team tells them to bring their rimfire uppers and some rimfire of choice to morning training sessions? That would be interesting to know if the people who invest tens of thousands of dollars in equipment and travel to win a ribbon or trophy use rimfire uppers for budget trainimg. A 22 is a 22 and either accurate or not. To make one accurate costs as much as shooting centerfire ammo. My only reason would be for limited range capability and would want good ammo thus no cost savings over reloading 5.56.

fnogger
September 28, 2017, 07:22
Wonder how often the coach of W.E.G.'s Service Rifle Team tells them to bring their rimfire uppers and some rimfire of choice to morning training sessions? That would be interesting to know if the people who invest tens of thousands of dollars in equipment and travel to win a ribbon or trophy use rimfire uppers for budget trainimg. A 22 is a 22 and either accurate or not. To make one accurate costs as much as shooting centerfire ammo. My only reason would be for limited range capability and would want good ammo thus no cost savings over reloading 5.56.

And at that level paying $300 for 1k rounds vs. paying $60 for 1k rounds isn't such a big deal. For people like me - supporting a family of 5 on an educator's salary - that kind of savings is nothing to sneeze at.

Accurate 22? For $600 including scope I can build a 10/22 that will shoot little tiny groups at 50 yards using 12c/rnd low end target ammo. Split playing cards, hit airsoft bbs glued to teh end of a tooth pick, etc.

Falfan2017
September 28, 2017, 07:49
Falfan. Where to start. The 22lr trajectory is different from what? A 223 trajectory is different from what? A .300WM trajectory is different from what? A .338 LM trajectory is differenr from what? None of them are the same as .223. Guess shooting them is a waste of time.
Shooting .22lr at distances of 300yds is a very good simulation of .308 at 1000. Today we shoot Beeman R1 springguns in .177 and .22 at distances over 100 yds. I always akined every 10 yards in an airgun as 100 yards in a centerfire.
Cool thing about airguns is that just because a guy can shoot powderburners, in no way means he can shoot airguns. But the reverse is not true. A guy that shoots airguns well almost always is a rockstar with powderburners.
What i am getting at is, i realize your opnion of sub caliber training is low. You mighr revisit the idea. And one more thing. There are plenty of videos of .22 passing thru fully clothed frozen turkeys at 400 plus yards. You think you are tougher at 300 yards than a frozen turkey is at 400?
I have spent years doing these things you opine on.
If you do not wish to become experienced in these endevors, wht comment or poo poo those that do?

The op is specifically talking about an ar. So he is most likely talking about a gun that shoots .223. 338 lap has nothing to do with this. If you want to get good with a 300 wm then practice with 300 wm. If you want to get good with a .338 lap then practice with a .338 lap. If you want to get good with an ar then practice with a real ar that shoots real ammo. Practice like your life depends on it cause one day it may.
Another factor that's left out of this discussion is people tend to go to the range and blast away indescriminately with .22lr. If I have a 9mm handgun out and a .22 I quickly find I've fired 2x as many rounds of 22. Just use .223 and make careful shots every time.

Old Sarge
September 28, 2017, 08:44
Have no problem with a rimfire AR style rifle if using as a toy or especially to let wives and kids learn ergonomics of the rifle. .

This is more in line with what I am looking at.

Old Sarge

Old Sarge
September 28, 2017, 08:47
PSA flyer today has a nice dedicated upper 22lr with charging handle and bcg for about 350.00

Upper looks nice, didn't pay attention to which magazine it uses.

Anyone used one of these? On sale at $299. looks like the way to go. Uses the black dog mags.

Old Sarge

TenTea
September 28, 2017, 08:50
If you want to get good with an ar then practice with a real ar that shoots real ammo.

Not real ammo, he says... ;) :biggrin:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/42/4e/99/424e99610e7990239e7b5dd43b28e666.jpg

hueyville
September 28, 2017, 09:09
First the three of us hijackers owe Ol Sarge an apology for hijacking his thread with our middle school style bickering over differences in opinion. Hope he got info needed for a 22 AR. As to what's best way to learn to shoot, it still boils down to a firearm with consistent trigger, accurate barrel and good consistent ammo. After that it is practice fundamentals and marksmanship basics will move from one system to another. When I want specifically build skills to use an AR in a defensive/offensive manner choose to use the real caliber but my situation is further complicated by fact use different calibers. If knew I was going to a fight and ranges were going to be to 250 to 300 yards will pick up a 6.8. If more urban areas and in buildings will choose my 13.5" to 14.7" and out in open an 18". If out in open will have an 18" 6.8. If engagement ranges past 300 yards possible then taking an 18" 5.56. if strictly indoors either an 11.5" 5.56 SBR or 12.5" 6.8 SBR. This means have to shoot them all enough to be familiar with dope on rounds. A 5.56 and 6.8 at 250 yards are totally different. A 5.56 or 6.8 inside a structure are virtually identical. None of these will be approximated with a rimfire. This discounts using a 20" 22 Nosler for varmint shooting where dope totally changes again.

So how are all these variables reconciled? Basic marksmanship skills first and quality tactical training second. If trigger control, breathing, shot release, etc along with tactical shooting skills are second nature then matters not what rifle take to the party. Now it's being able to transition from a 25 foot pop-up to a 400 yard combatant behind partial cover and know how much dope you need for wind and distance. This will not be reinforced with a rimfire nor will training with a 9mm AR transition to a 5.56 if need a first or quick follow-up shot to deal with your 400 yard plus engagement with the flatter shooting weapon. Luckily we now have optics that do a lot of the work. Can get correctly calibrated turrets for your optics to dial up range and hold on target time allowing. Sometimes better to take best guess, loose a round and if miss know how much adjustment is required at specific range in two axis to make second round hit. I shoot with some guys that make it look easy and others that can't hit a silhouette target at 100 offhand. I keep working and spend more time now with the 6.8 than the 5.56 based on almost 30 years of running 5.56 needing less work and carry 6.8's more how. Now the real kicker is not been a single time in my life where needed these skills. 60% of shots I take are inside point blank range of my rifle (knowing your point blank range is key) and other 40% have time to pull out a range finder, anemometer and enter data into an app giving me a firing solution. When zapping crows, ground hogs and coyote at long range then leveraging electronic advantage brings a person right back where we started. Trigger control, breathing, shot release, watching for round so can adjust dope quickly in head if fall a foot short, go a foot long or a foot to either side. Marksmanship, tactics then train with weapon and ammo will be in field with and pray that never need any in real life to stay alive. Odd thread drift as don't think OP ever mentioned his goal was inexpensive training with an AR, just wanted an AR pattern rimfire. For all I know he wants it for kid or back yard where can't fire full power centerfire. But to say can use a 22 upper to train for long range engagement or rapid fire tactical run-n-gun is counterproductive as if I give someone an AR in rimfire and they run 100,000 rounds till totally familiar then suddenly switch it for a 5.56 and hit them with zombies it will bode bad. Hope OP finds his rimfire and it does what wants, it makes more sense than a 9mm AR to me.

hueyville
September 28, 2017, 09:22
Anyone used one of these? On sale at $299. looks like the way to go. Uses the black dog mags.

Old Sarge

I have not, only fired a couple of rimfire AR's. Own AR's by the dozens now and not felt need to own one in rimfire but have so many fine rimfires is likely a top reason haven't. May buy one before the day ends but the ones have fired were dedicated rimfire. Just checked Palmetto site and could only find two rimfire uppers and both are showing out of stock right now.

TenTea
September 28, 2017, 09:35
M261 Army conversion unit arrived this week and appears brand spankin' new, as do the steel, 10 round magazine inserts.
A minor tweak (file) on the followers and the mags now accept 10 rounds smoothly and position the top round for feeding correctly.
I will test drive this thing tomorrow even if the Compass Lake firing pin I ordered is not here yet.
Still waiting on more mag inserts (I found 5ea. for $50) and a couple BDM's ($15ea.) too.

I fought a Spike's conversion bolt (sold) for over a year, way back when, before buying the Tactical Solutions dedicated upper (sold) so hopefully this unit will be reliable and reasonably accurate in a 1:12 twist pencil barrel. If not, I'll save up for a Compass Lake upper if I get squirrely.

Part of the appeal of USGI (Army or Air Force) conversions is *the gadget* principle and part of it is engineering. To me, they are simply marvels of design made for a specific purpose at a specific time in history. The user of them can transform one thing into something else with a quick BCG swap.

I'm not after one hole groups at 50 or 100+ with this rifle, I have other tools for such, but if I can chase a golf ball downrange until I can't see it anymore, that is all I ask. Reliable function is another.

Anyway, hoping for the best, prepared for the worst and will be pleased if a LaRue MBT trigger doesn't pose any problems with the conversion function.

Good luck Old Sarge.

michael_g927
September 28, 2017, 11:21
Hey Sarge, can tou post a pic of your new toy? I agree with the nostalgia of it all. I wish i still had my Colt kit.
A few years ago i sold everything .23 i had (10/22 and mkIII). The only one i kept was a Marlin M25 my mom bought me for my 16th birthday.
Today my .22lr needs are handled by a dedicated .22lr AR and an Adams Arms G17 .22lr pistol. Are they tack drivers? No. But neither am i. They are better than i can shoot them though. I am very happy with my .22s. I am nearly finished with my dedicated .22lr AR15A2. And thinking of converting my M9.
Now i have looked at the dedicated CHIAPPA M9 pistols. They seemed a bit light weight and toyish (kinda like M&P 15/22). I am leaning towards the real Beretta conversion. What are you all thinking?

Falfan2017
September 28, 2017, 11:41
First the three of us hijackers owe Ol Sarge an apology for hijacking his thread with our middle school style bickering over differences in opinion. Hope he got info needed for a 22 AR. As to what's best way to learn to shoot, it still boils down to a firearm with consistent trigger, accurate barrel and good consistent ammo. After that it is practice fundamentals and marksmanship basics will move from one system to another. When I want specifically build skills to use an AR in a defensive/offensive manner choose to use the real caliber but my situation is further complicated by fact use different calibers. If knew I was going to a fight and ranges were going to be to 250 to 300 yards will pick up a 6.8. If more urban areas and in buildings will choose my 13.5" to 14.7" and out in open an 18". If out in open will have an 18" 6.8. If engagement ranges past 300 yards possible then taking an 18" 5.56. if strictly indoors either an 11.5" 5.56 SBR or 12.5" 6.8 SBR. This means have to shoot them all enough to be familiar with dope on rounds. A 5.56 and 6.8 at 250 yards are totally different. A 5.56 or 6.8 inside a structure are virtually identical. None of these will be approximated with a rimfire. This discounts using a 20" 22 Nosler for varmint shooting where dope totally changes again.

So how are all these variables reconciled? Basic marksmanship skills first and quality tactical training second. If trigger control, breathing, shot release, etc along with tactical shooting skills are second nature then matters not what rifle take to the party. Now it's being able to transition from a 25 foot pop-up to a 400 yard combatant behind partial cover and know how much dope you need for wind and distance. This will not be reinforced with a rimfire nor will training with a 9mm AR transition to a 5.56 if need a first or quick follow-up shot to deal with your 400 yard plus engagement with the flatter shooting weapon. Luckily we now have optics that do a lot of the work. Can get correctly calibrated turrets for your optics to dial up range and hold on target time allowing. Sometimes better to take best guess, loose a round and if miss know how much adjustment is required at specific range in two axis to make second round hit. I shoot with some guys that make it look easy and others that can't hit a silhouette target at 100 offhand. I keep working and spend more time now with the 6.8 than the 5.56 based on almost 30 years of running 5.56 needing less work and carry 6.8's more how. Now the real kicker is not been a single time in my life where needed these skills. 60% of shots I take are inside point blank range of my rifle (knowing your point blank range is key) and other 40% have time to pull out a range finder, anemometer and enter data into an app giving me a firing solution. When zapping crows, ground hogs and coyote at long range then leveraging electronic advantage brings a person right back where we started. Trigger control, breathing, shot release, watching for round so can adjust dope quickly in head if fall a foot short, go a foot long or a foot to either side. Marksmanship, tactics then train with weapon and ammo will be in field with and pray that never need any in real life to stay alive. Odd thread drift as don't think OP ever mentioned his goal was inexpensive training with an AR, just wanted an AR pattern rimfire. For all I know he wants it for kid or back yard where can't fire full power centerfire. But to say can use a 22 upper to train for long range engagement or rapid fire tactical run-n-gun is counterproductive as if I give someone an AR in rimfire and they run 100,000 rounds till totally familiar then suddenly switch it for a 5.56 and hit them with zombies it will bode bad. Hope OP finds his rimfire and it does what wants, it makes more sense than a 9mm AR to me.

Sorry Mr. OP! Of course if you ask a question on the internet you run the risk of getting stupid answers.

Old Sarge
September 28, 2017, 13:03
Hey Sarge, can tou post a pic of your new toy? I agree with the nostalgia of it all. I wish i still had my Colt kit.
A few years ago i sold everything .23 i had (10/22 and mkIII). The only one i kept was a Marlin M25 my mom bought me for my 16th birthday.
Today my .22lr needs are handled by a dedicated .22lr AR and an Adams Arms G17 .22lr pistol. Are they tack drivers? No. But neither am i. They are better than i can shoot them though. I am very happy with my .22s. I am nearly finished with my dedicated .22lr AR15A2. And thinking of converting my M9.
Now i have looked at the dedicated CHIAPPA M9 pistols. They seemed a bit light weight and toyish (kinda like M&P 15/22). I am leaning towards the real Beretta conversion. What are you all thinking?



Once I get something... I was hoping to get some feedback on the PSA upper and then get one. But it looks like I should have jumped this morning when I saw it. I wanted to see if I could figure out if it used the mags CDNN has for $9.00 ea.

But I have come to the conclusion that I am going to get a dedicated upper and add it to one of the existing lowers that I have making a complete gun that duplicates the controls and function of my AR 15s.

Thanks for the info all.

Old Sarge

TenTea
September 28, 2017, 13:19
Heck of a deal @ $8.99

https://www.cdnnsports.com/cmmg-ceiner-kel-sig522-22.html?___SID=U

Details
Designed to work CMMG coversion kits and similar Atchisson type .22LR conversion systems.

Fits ATI, Atchisson, Chiappa, CMMG, Kel-Tec, Sig Sauer 522, Spikes & Tactical Solutions 22LR AR-15 coversion kits.

High Quality Construction
Impact Resistant
Bolt Hold Open on Last Round
Green Follower
Full Body Design

In stock at PSA right now...if this is the one you are looking at, it appears to be a CMMG style bolt and collar.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-22-lr-1-16-nitride-upper-with-bcg-and-ch-516446935.html

ICOM7800
September 28, 2017, 15:38
Ive got a 1980s atchisson mk2 rimfire kit I use in my M16.as long as you use CCI mini mags it runs great.

michael_g927
September 28, 2017, 16:04
That PSA deal is cheap!!! Whos bolt does it use?
Post pics of these kits guys. Stuf is fascinating. I saw a G3 kit once. Very cool.
Fal fan, what was wrong with Huey's post? I think he adds quite a bit to the thread . Just because his experience and view are not same as yours or mine doesnt mean he is wrong or we are right.
Something you will find with any forum is, there is a hierarchy. Usually an anointed one, then a circle of beta males. God help you if you show up and say something intelligent. As long as you ask questions and never question the innercircle and just take their bad mouthing, you will be fine.
BUT.. If you question or confront the anointed one, they will pursue you till you are banned. Its proof positive of their insecurity.
I LOVE IT!

ByronF
September 28, 2017, 18:31
For a 200$ upper to payoff you'd have to buy 4000 rounds of 22lr. The math just doesn't work out. What could you possibly do with 4000 rounds of 22lr that would allow you to do anything practical with an ar? Also 5 cents is cheap crummy 22lr. Try shooting low grade 22 vs cci at 200 yards. You'll want the cci. Well that's almost 10 cents a round right there.

You lost the argument when you put the dollar sign in the wrong place.

ByronF
September 28, 2017, 18:43
Oh, and I've never been informed by moderators that I'm anointed, but I probably am. So... you know.... watch your step.

Old Sarge
September 28, 2017, 22:01
That PSA deal is cheap!!! Whos bolt does it use?
Post pics of these kits guys. Stuf is fascinating. I saw a G3 kit once. Very cool.
Fal fan, what was wrong with Huey's post? I think he adds quite a bit to the thread . Just because his experience and view are not same as yours or mine doesnt mean he is wrong or we are right.
Something you will find with any forum is, there is a hierarchy. Usually an anointed one, then a circle of beta males. God help you if you show up and say something intelligent. As long as you ask questions and never question the innercircle and just take their bad mouthing, you will be fine.
BUT.. If you question or confront the anointed one, they will pursue you till you are banned. Its proof positive of their insecurity.
I LOVE IT!

I should have on in about a week. Once I get it I will post up some pics and as I build it up. Not sure if the mags from CDNN are the same type or not but they look close from what I could tell on the websights. With luck the cheap mags will fit and work in it.

Now on to find a conversion kit for a Glock 17 or 19.

Old Sarge

Falfan2017
September 28, 2017, 23:09
That PSA deal is cheap!!! Whos bolt does it use?
Post pics of these kits guys. Stuf is fascinating. I saw a G3 kit once. Very cool.
Fal fan, what was wrong with Huey's post? I think he adds quite a bit to the thread . Just because his experience and view are not same as yours or mine doesnt mean he is wrong or we are right.
Something you will find with any forum is, there is a hierarchy. Usually an anointed one, then a circle of beta males. God help you if you show up and say something intelligent. As long as you ask questions and never question the innercircle and just take their bad mouthing, you will be fine.
BUT.. If you question or confront the anointed one, they will pursue you till you are banned. Its proof positive of their insecurity.
I LOVE IT!

No nothing wrong with Huey. He said the three of us should apologize to the op for hijacking the thread. I agreed with him.

yellowhand
September 28, 2017, 23:11
I should have on in about a week. Once I get it I will post up some pics and as I build it up. Not sure if the mags from CDNN are the same type or not but they look close from what I could tell on the websights. With luck the cheap mags will fit and work in it.

Now on to find a conversion kit for a Glock 17 or 19.

Old Sarge


I have this one below, works great.

https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1

I picked up a surplus Model 22 and converted it to 9mm, then picked up a 357Sig barrel, and finally this 22 conversion, whole thing, 40SW, 9mm, 357Sig, 22LR conversion, now all rides in same trouble bag, 9mm, 40SW, 357 Sig, and 22 LR, so figure I got about most calibers covered with one frame.:)LOL
I EDC a full size or the smaller Glock in 357 Sig anyway.

idsubgun
September 29, 2017, 07:08
Anyone used one of these? On sale at $299. looks like the way to go. Uses the black dog mags.

Old Sarge

The set up I have uses Black Dog mags. We partnered with them when we developed the AR-22, and other .22 conversions at Tactical Solutions.

One of the tool & die guys that worked at Black Dog at that time has a daughter that became a machinist, and she worked for me on my shift. Good little machinist!

So, I'm partial to Black Dog products.

idsubgun
September 29, 2017, 07:10
One thing to remember. Most .22 LR conversions like high velocity ammo. Sometimes you can't buy the cheapest ammo, or even match ammo, to make it work properly.

michael_g927
September 29, 2017, 08:47
I never used Blackdog or Tactical Solutions. But i have never heard any bad either.
As far as ammo, i have been lucky enuf for my stuff to run on federalnor winchester bulk walmart crap.
Yellowhand, your kit is one contemplated by me mant times. Lonewolf is awesome. But now with $30 AR lowers and $110 Glock factory lowers, i just cant help myself to finish out dedicated guns.
Falfan, i really dint think Old Sarge is mad. We never hijacked his thread. All debate was centered around the thread subject matter. Reading thru it, i think it is a very interesting thread with everyones input.
What i hate is when folks are sharing their experiences and someone turns it into a pissing contest. Happens alot around here.
10 or 15 years ago there was a young kid from Japan that would cone over here and shoot against guys like Butler and Lathem. What was interesting about him was, he was not allowed to have guns back home. So all year, he would shoot with airsoft, then come over here and compete with a .45 then go back home. This guy was fast. He was laying down sone blistering stages one day, and he had an AD. Now the AD was not one where the gun was pointed anywhere unsafe, but it did fire before the buzzer went of. So he was DQ ed. But. He was awesome. Especially for training only with airsoft!

hueyville
September 30, 2017, 09:02
M261 Army conversion unit arrived this week and appears brand spankin' new, as do the steel, 10 round magazine inserts.
A minor tweak (file) on the followers and the mags now accept 10 rounds smoothly and position the top round for feeding correctly.
I will test drive this thing tomorrow even if the Compass Lake firing pin I ordered is not here yet.
Still waiting on more mag inserts (I found 5ea. for $50) and a couple BDM's ($15ea.) too.
(selected trimming)
...so hopefully this unit will be reliable and reasonably accurate in a 1:12 twist pencil barrel. If not, I'll save up for a Compass Lake upper if I get squirrely.

Part of the appeal of USGI (Army or Air Force) conversions is *the gadget* principle and part of it is engineering. To me, they are simply marvels of design made for a specific purpose at a specific time in history. The user of them can transform one thing into something else with a quick BCG swap. I'm not after one hole groups at 50 or 100+ with this rifle, I have other tools for such, but if I can chase a golf ball downrange until I can't see it anymore, that is all I ask. Reliable function is another.
Good luck Old Sarge.

Above might be one of the best posts in the thread. The "gadget factor" of making your AR do something it was never intended when designed. I will concede to this part of the arguement. Hope your lazy twist rate barrel lobs rounds well. Be willing to try lots of different brands/price point choices in ammo. Will know in ten rounds if it groups to your satisfaction and if doesn't in the 1:12 leaves you 40 rounds to shoot a couple test groups in each of your other rimfires. Always amazed me how I can take a 22, shoot 20 different ammo selections and how it hates half, half it is o.k. and one or two that totally shine in it.

Admit I am odd and except for my old Marlin-Glenfield given at age 11 and and Ruger Mk 1 Standard given age 12 would have shot rocks, BB's and pellets if they cooperated at that age. Age 12 received my first centerfire (35 Remington), had loan of dad's handguns and was reloading at local game wardens house. Age 15 using someone else's equipment was inconvienent and added the issue he lived on a State Hwy and was only allowed to drive on dirt roads. Worked hard summers, after school, snuck to ATL bought complete reloading and casting setup, local hardware and added a Smith M19 Combat Master 357, General Merchantile to get a single action 44, 12 guage and 350 Rem Mag. So while most kids were still plinking with 22's had already abandoned them for reloading centerfire for economy, accuracy and making ammo only a kid would try and amazed didn't KaBoom anything though the shotgun was tied to an old tire and trigger pulled with a string more times than should have.

By time regained interest in rimfires had moved from farm to town and picked up a pair of Smith M41's in 5.5" and 7" used indoors or areas a centerfire would attract too much attention. Moving to town when used to having free run of 3,000 acres, personal steel course, bowling pin table, 100/150 yard level range and 450 yard downhill trending range was culture shock with two year wait to even have application to local gun club come up for review. Turned to rimfire as my most efficient way to practice marksmanship or killing varmints at work. When purchased my shop had been unoccupied for several years with four pecan trees and a thousand squirrel outside and in attic along with a infestation of rats and mice. With building in middle of town a miss was totally unacceptable as is till today. Kill over 200 squirrel just in fall every year and about as many over other three seasons combined.

Became accuracy obsessed with rimfire and have not used one for plinking since I was 12 much. In building couldn't miss rats and mice or risk shooting my equipment, quickly switched from my Smith M41's to a suppressed Beretta with subsonic and a turnbolt that had threaded to fit the can as well. Got back into rimfire but only as a means to practice mechanics of shooting so exceptional accuracy of equipment was required to know if error was mine not the gun or ammo. Except for running a few rounds down pipe of a 10/22 before tear it down for a custom build, plinking is just not something I do but if floats your boat go for it. The idea that shooting a 22 for tactical training transitioning to full power ammo evades me as everything changes. For getting trigger time, killing varmints and working on shooting mechanics, it's very effective. Backing out of this dead horse as pieces are starting to fall off, hope Ol Sarge gets what he wants/needs. May do a few hours at LGS if busy and we sell lots of rimfire AR's, will ask salesmen that use them some questions.

TenTea
September 30, 2017, 10:39
The M-261 conversion was very good at first use and more reliable than I expected, prior to being thoroughly broken in.
I'm told, just like anything, these will smooth up with use.
I ran it wet with CLP as per recommended and had the Compass Lake firing pin installed.
I tested 5 USGI mag inserts and 2 commercial BDM's...all were excellent!
Put over 250 rounds downrange in ammo and function testing.
The only glitches were a couple rounds of Aguila SV ammo that did not have enough power to reset the LaRue MBT trigger.
Accuracy was equally good with Aguila SE-SV and CCI MiniMags (both 40 grain solids)...maybe a slight edge to the SV at both 25 and 50 yards.
I'll get some gun and group pics uploaded Monday.
Until then, be well.

TenTea
October 02, 2017, 07:14
As promised.

Pictured are the first 50 rounds downrange without blackening or adjustment of sights.
After putting a brick of assorted ammoes through it, on two separate days, with 10 USGI mag inserts and 2 BDM's, I'm choosing CCI SV as the best for reliability and accuracy.
Average groups with CCI SV measured ~1.5" @ 25 yards and under 3" at 50 yards, which were fired after blackening the sights the day following these photos.
The firearm pictured is 1:12 twist 16" carbine barrel.
I may try the M261 conversion in a 1:14 twist 20" rifle barrel for fun and comparison sake in the near future.

I've been testing and proving match rimfire ammo in a match rifle and pistol all summer long, so this was an entertaining change of pace. :)

86329

86332

86330

86331

gunplumber
October 02, 2017, 08:21
I went with a dedicated .22 upper (Spikes) on a real AR lower. It's for sale, by the way, because I want to get one of the .22 SCARs instead. Now that I don't own any ARs anymore, keeping one for training I want it to at least look like the full size. Also have dedicated .22 glocks. One has a definite preference for Federal, the other for Remington. Can't remember which is which. I often run with a silencer which seems to give enough back pressure to help with some of the cheap bulk ammo. Otherwise CCI stingers.

michael_g927
October 02, 2017, 09:59
Dedicated .22s are the way to go. My Advantage Arms seems to shoot most anything. I would imagine it will only get better.
Where would a fella find a .22lr scar?

hueyville
October 15, 2017, 05:47
Noticed in LGS yesterday Smith & Wesson M&P 22 was $349.99. Complete rifle, same ergonomics as AR but dedicated rim fire. Only issue was except for barrel and bolt, everything is polymer. My guess is a polymer lower and upper is going to contain a 22 but wondered about forearm and some other areas. At $299.99 might have carried it out the door.

the gman
October 15, 2017, 13:13
Dedicated .22s are the way to go. My Advantage Arms seems to shoot most anything. I would imagine it will only get better.
Where would a fella find a .22lr scar?

https://www.cdnnsports.com/issc-mk22-22lr-16-blk-fold-stk-quad-flp-sght-1-22.html?___SID=U#.WeOlDDBrzIU

jam762
October 15, 2017, 14:10
https://www.cdnnsports.com/issc-mk22-22lr-16-blk-fold-stk-quad-flp-sght-1-22.html?___SID=U#.WeOlDDBrzIU

Iíve had one of those ISSC MK22 for 2-3yrs. Light strikes is the only issue Iíve had with it. Did they fix the light strike issue on the new ones?

hueyville
October 16, 2017, 09:40
Have had an order in cart at CDNN for a couple weeks but not large enough to warrant shipping cost, at $269 can fix a light strike issue if becomes an issue. If feed and extracts the hard work has been done, getting a little more force on firing pin could not be an impossible task.

gew98
October 16, 2017, 15:55
30 years ago I got a M261 kit and an Airforce kit. The Airforce kit worked super. The M261 kit was always a bugbear with the dozen 10rd mag inserts. Had a CMMG kit 8 years ago...it's mags sucked. Eventually settled on an Atchinson/ciener kit I got a super deal on with 7 30 round steel mags and a ramline mag loader. Functions awesomely. Only issues I noted is if my son lets it get bad dirty stovepipes and extraction failures will happen with cheap ammo. Gonna try it with a buddy's FA M16.... as it's got the full auto trip and anti bounce weight. On a sidenote Ceiner himself was at the Knob shoot and was selling his kits of all types and parts for them. Thought he had been locked up ?. Anyhow he was a charming fellow oddly enough.

Vulcanator
October 18, 2017, 21:20
I run a CMMG conversion bolt in my Bushmaster M-Forgery. Using open sights I can get 10 shot groups 2.5-3MOA all day long using CCI Mini-Mag. Never had an issue with fouling the gas tube. After a couple of hundred shots, I just run the normal BCG with about 5 rounds and I'm GTG.

lockjaw
October 19, 2017, 06:01
I've toys with .22 dedicated ARs and conversion kits. I personally found them to be a novelty. If I want to shoo tan AR, I use 5.56/.223 (has nothing to do with whether I think a .22 is viable or not).

If I need a .22, I grab a trusty 60s vintage Ruger 10/22. I love that little gun!

I have an original Colt conversion kit with a few mags which are fun when the mood suits me. I use it with my SP rifles with 1/12 barrels. It is perfectly reliable with high velocity ammo.

Possum
October 21, 2017, 14:16
The two conversions I have are unreliable. One was a CMMG that I bought at Knob Creek and the other came with a rifle purchase. So I would go with a dedicated upper Rimfire upper if I were you.

michael_g927
October 21, 2017, 19:11
I used to rely on Ruger rimfires. They were always great guns. That new MKIV sure has me lookin.
But as mentioned earlier, the training duality is a great reason for .22lr conversions.
One thing i also enjoy is the commonality of parts. This is something my Rugers could not give me.
Example. If my .22 AR breaks, most of the rifle is common to my other rifles. Or, if one of my other rifles needs a part, chances are, my .22lr has that part. Same goes for my Glock conversion.
I can mix/match and rob parts as needed.

lockjaw
October 21, 2017, 20:20
I cannot buy in to the training quality argument. The characteristics of SHOOTING a .22 AR compared to a 5.56 are too far apart. It is funny how the Airsoft guys use the same argument. Ha! I'm joking... well, sort of.

I do find shooting the .22 conversion in my old SP-1 fun and a nice change of pace for plinking. My old Colt .22 kit works great and the mags are tough as nails.

michael_g927
October 22, 2017, 09:27
Baffles me as to how guys think there is no training value. As above they point to the bang difference. By the time you sence the bang, the round has already terminated its flight. Either you hit or you didnt.
The bang is only 10% of training. Weapon manipulation the 75% and movement is another 15%. I realize that 99% of shooters stand static on a square range and make noise. Great training for the Ntl Matches. They call this training.
I fail to see the difference between 556 mag changes and CMMG mag changes. Also what difference is there running and gunning with a 556 over a .22lr? They both weigh the same.
As i said, if the 5.56 or 9mm are pushing you around so much that it is so noticable to you that you cannot benefit from the training, you might need to take up knitting.
If it is universally understood that these skills are developed and maintained dryfiring, making no bang at all, why is there no love for the same training using .22lr?
Militaries have been doing it for nearly 100 years now.
So if you limit your self to full power training, you must be wealthy. If not, you are just limiting your amount of training.
We all laughed at airsoft until a little japaneese kid came over here an stuck it in our ass. Sadly in his country he only allows airsoft. The ONLY live fire he got was here during actual comp.
Watching that event OPENED MY MIND.

hueyville
October 22, 2017, 12:11
(Trim)
I fail to see the difference between 556 mag changes and CMMG mag changes. Also what difference is there running and gunning with a 556 over a .22lr? They both weigh the same.
As i said, if the 5.56 or 9mm are pushing you around so much that it is so noticable to you that you cannot benefit from the training,.....
If it is universally understood that these skills are developed and maintained dryfiring, making no bang at all, why is there no love for the same training using .22lr?
Militaries have been doing it for nearly 100 years now.
So if you limit your self to full power training, you must be wealthy. If not, you are just limiting your amount of training.
We all laughed at airsoft until a little japaneese kid came over here an stuck it in our ass. Sadly in his country he only allows airsoft. The ONLY live fire he got was here during actual comp.
Watching that event OPENED MY MIND.

Dunno but any Japanese kid at any comps but take your word m on that. Some truth to above statements as trigger time is trigger time in somemways. I do dry fire drills five evenings per week on average. All it does is reinforce draw and first drop of hammer along with mag swaps and malfunction clearing with dummy rounds. That is a lot to,competative and defensive shootimg. In defense first accurately placed round is often the decision maker.

As to run and gun, yes some similarities but most dedicated AR pattern 22's have held are lighter and practicing double taps, fast followup shots with a rimfire can cause bad habits if don't practice enough with full power as mitigation of recoil and muzzle climb differences will be mistrained .

As to being rich to always shoot full power 5.56 I need to know definition of rich? Get roughly 300 rounds per pound of powder. Am loading using powder from decade ago marked $12.95 per pound, primers at $14.95 per 1,000 (till last year using $9.99 then ran through my $12.95 per 1,000 stockpile quickly) and projectiles paid five cents each for. Four cents for powder, 1.4 cents per primer plus bullet for nickle per pill and totals just under a dime. If use currently available components eight cents for new 55 grain fmj's, 13 cents for 62 grain premium bonded, seven cents for powder and just under three cents for primers. That's 18 to 24 cents per round unless use swaging press to make own jacketed bullets at less than half price or cast for about three cents if make own gas checks. So 15 cents if buy new components and if make your bullets and load for 13 to 15 cents. Either way it's just a few more cents than rim fire ammo currently.

Have always tried to stay a decade to fifteen years ahead on components but Sandy Hook caused me to delay most bulk component buys for two years except a few big estate buys. If you don't have a decades ammo put back you shold sell a few guns and buy ammo for the ones you keep as another Sandy Hook and have to quit shooting. Honestly had little to no sympathy for those who ran out of ammo during Sandy Hook. The supply line could end or price of ammo triple any day for life. Rifle without ammo in your posession is an expensive stick. When finish a new build make sure and have 2,500 rounds for it inside of a month. 5.56 AR's plan to keep for life all have 10,000 rounds in storage with their name on it. 6.8's have 2,500 and working to increase to 5k per.

All of my 7.62 NATO battle rifles have a minimum of 3,000 rounds in storage plus lockers of primers, powder and projectiles to reload. Know that a decade from now if still alive will be shooting quarter a round reloaded range ammo in AR's. If chose can pull ammo put in long term storage over 20 years ago that cost five to ten cents per round. Occasionally pull old cans and replace with new to keep inventory semi fresh, try not to let ammo get over 25 years old. During Sandy Hook was selling bricks of rim fire wit $7.95 to $9.95 per brick for $100 each.

lockjaw
October 22, 2017, 15:59
Baffles me as to how guys think there is no training value.

As i said, if the 5.56 or 9mm are pushing you around so much that it is so noticable to you that you cannot benefit from the training, you might need to take up knitting....



Nobody stated that there was "no training value." You are being dramatic.

Long story short, after 20+ years of training with 5.56 in the Infantry, in law enforcement, and personal enjoyment, I am confident that .22 is a NOT a realistic substation for 5.56 for QUALITY live fire training.

Hmmm... knitting. I might have to take that up.............

.

lockjaw
October 22, 2017, 16:21
I went with a dedicated .22 upper (Spikes) on a real AR lower. It's for sale, by the way, because I want to get one of the .22 SCARs instead. Now that I don't own any ARs anymore, keeping one for training I want it to at least look like the full size. Also have dedicated .22 glocks. One has a definite preference for Federal, the other for Remington. Can't remember which is which. I often run with a silencer which seems to give enough back pressure to help with some of the cheap bulk ammo. Otherwise CCI stingers.

Suppressed .22 Glock.... that has to be fun!

hueyville
October 22, 2017, 17:43
I can already knit. Heard a Navy SEA interviewed about an invention of his that made him a millionaire. Just some webbing sewn together. Said the dirty little secret about SEAL's is that all of them can sew. Have to alter or make mission specific gear while squatting in a warehouse or safe house for weeks waiting on the go order and if mission changes have to make do with what they have so needle work is mandatory. I sew all the time modifying body armor carriers and repairing soft equipment. On o"a sion have to hire a real seamstress like for my mostly NIJ Level II Multicam fatigues. Put on pants and most of the important arteries are protected from shrapnel and handguns. Hopefully will make a rifle hit less terrible even if doesn't stop it and pants still have great mobility. Now to knit a sweater and mittens with trauma panels...

Old Sarge
October 29, 2017, 15:03
Ok, so back to the original question.

I went a head and ordered one of the PSA dedicated uppers. It was advertised as using the BlackDog Machine mags, but they were out of stock. After looking at the pictures on BlackDog's websight and comparing a few others that I could find. I decided to take a chance on one of the cheap ones that CDNN has for $8.99 I got lucky and they work with the PSA upper.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/h9XEqg.jpg

The unit outside of the upper.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/h0KJTN.jpg

The Barrel stub in the receiver.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/922/ukBiYT.jpg

I put a MagPul backup rear sight on it that I had laying around my office.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/L31ldt.jpg

Took it out this weekend and tried it out. Had a couple of hiccups with the ammo that might have been ammo related but for the most part it worked fine. I shot a 5 shot group and made a sight adjustment. Went through the rest of the only box of 22Lr I brought with me plinking at shotgun disks from about 40 yards. I shot this last group just so I would have something to show.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/wnzwUy.jpg

All in all I am pretty happy with it. It gives me something that the wife and daughters can use to workup to the real thing. Learn the fundamentals of the manual of arms and how to shoot. As a recreational shooter the thing is just fun and surprisingly accurate.

Thanks for looking.
Old Sarge

yellowhand
October 29, 2017, 16:53
Ok, so back to the original question.

I went a head and ordered one of the PSA dedicated uppers. It was advertised as using the BlackDog Machine mags, but they were out of stock. After looking at the pictures on BlackDog's websight and comparing a few others that I could find. I decided to take a chance on one of the cheap ones that CDNN has for $8.99 I got lucky and they work with the PSA upper.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/h9XEqg.jpg

The unit outside of the upper.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/h0KJTN.jpg

The Barrel stub in the receiver.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/922/ukBiYT.jpg

I put a MagPul backup rear sight on it that I had laying around my office.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/L31ldt.jpg

Took it out this weekend and tried it out. Had a couple of hiccups with the ammo that might have been ammo related but for the most part it worked fine. I shot a 5 shot group and made a sight adjustment. Went through the rest of the only box of 22Lr I brought with me plinking at shotgun disks from about 40 yards. I shot this last group just so I would have something to show.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/wnzwUy.jpg

All in all I am pretty happy with it. It gives me something that the wife and daughters can use to workup to the real thing. Learn the fundamentals of the manual of arms and how to shoot. As a recreational shooter the thing is just fun and surprisingly accurate.

Thanks for looking.
Old Sarge

Yep!
My drop in unit uses the same mags, so far, so good, no issues.:D