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PARA FN FAL
September 17, 2017, 12:26
This article is interesting because I often see the same debate here on the internet on what mag to use in a AR15. Well this adds a little fuel to the fire of that debate. https://kitup.military.com/2017/09/army-report-buries-magpul-pmag.html

nwobhm
September 17, 2017, 12:36
Hard to argue with modern plastics. Amazing stuff.

hueyville
September 17, 2017, 12:49
My computer is not wanting to load link but have noticed when I watch the Nat Geo show featuring the Army medical air rescue crews in Afghanistan have noticed all of those guys are loaded to the hilt with FDE P-Mags. Those guys hang it out not only to save U.S. and allied troops but medivac more civilians it seems than combatants. Looks sketchy but its t.v., my guess it is pretty sketchy.

C2A1
September 17, 2017, 12:50
Thx for posting.

Bug Tussell
September 17, 2017, 15:38
...and it remains unclear why the Army didnít do the same. Itís also unclear*why the Army decided to develop another version of same magazine design when soldiers have used PMAGs in their weapons in combat for years because of their proven reliability.

some general's retirement job. If it's good enough for congress then why ain't it good enough for the other elites?

hueyville
September 17, 2017, 17:49
If I were deployed would take my own set of plates for my vest saving 10 pounds to hump and carry as many Lancers as could add to my duffel bag. Also have a Randal Model 15 Airman for my knife and carry a SIG sidearm. Nephew is redeploying and confirmed is allowed to carry sidearm of choice. Asked him if wanted to come pilfer Uncle Huey's vaults. The Randal knife has been on his flight gear through three deployments thus far and if had known he could carry choice of handgun would have likely given him a pistol to go with the knife. His mother and his wife love that knife. Didn't know that there was a knife specifically designed to chop your way out of a downed helicopter till his first family deployment party. He said wanted one but on a Leuitenants salary recently married and new kid in the oven money was tight and had no idea Uncle Huey wouldn't let him go without one. Have been buying them off the street as my entire Randal collection has been given to relatives and kids of friends that deployed so as another goes have a local collector/trader that keeps me in them. If someone you know gets sent if able to help them kit up, do it.

Falfan2017
September 17, 2017, 18:58
Never understood the emphasis on barrel/feed ramp wear. By the time you wear one out you'll have burned 50 times the cost of the barrel. Just buy another barrel if it gets to be a problem.

CTW
September 18, 2017, 22:18
I have p-mags, but really prefer the Lancer's. I have many of each stockpiled away and the Lancer's are my stock...

Falfan2017
September 18, 2017, 22:36
I like the stainless steel mags. Anybody know of any issues with them?

Right Side Up
September 18, 2017, 23:19
My H&K mags were good enough that I stopped looking for a different brand.

idsubgun
September 19, 2017, 07:53
I have around 200 AR-15 mags. Most are GI issued aluminum mags but I also have P-mags. All mags have worked flawlessly in probably 20-some AR's and a couple of FNC's, one being full auto.

The last big batch of GI mags I bought was 50 from the sandbox, either Iraq or Afghanistan. They were full of fine sand.
I disassembled them, flushed them out with the garden hose and then loaded them up in the dishwasher. I put anti-tilt followers in them but used the same springs. They work great!!

I've seen people run away from mags that have a lot of finish wear on them, but I try to buy them up BECAUSE the worn finish means they were used a lot! You don't use a mag a lot unless they work well!
Some of my best FAL mags have most of the finish worn off.

"WORN MAGS MATTER!"

Mebsuta
September 19, 2017, 07:55
Sanchez are the best.

yovinny
September 19, 2017, 07:56
Maybe somebody had a brain and some SF medic input ?
Since SF used them early on in the sand box and found those pretty plastic pmags explode very nicely when shot and the pieces dont show up on xrays ?
I know my ex 5th & 7th SF buddies wont touch them,,,thats good enough for me..

ICOM7800
September 19, 2017, 09:27
Maybe somebody had a brain and some SF medic input ?
Since SF used them early on in the sand box and found those pretty plastic pmags explode very nicely when shot and the pieces dont show up on xrays ?
I know my ex 5th & 7th SF buddies wont touch them,,,thats good enough for me..

Yep no magpul shit for use in my colt Mk18.usgi only

hueyville
September 19, 2017, 10:57
I use 60% stainless in AR's now followed by USGI aluminum with MagPul antitilt followers, chorme silicon springs and MagPul base plates. Otherwise use 20 round Lancers to identify non standard calibers easily and they seem to feed any case shape shoved in them. Otherwise

yovinny
September 19, 2017, 11:45
Dont get me wrong,,I happen to like and have had good luck with pmags..
I use nothing but in my 300BO's,,but their range and hunting mags,,Im not going to war any time soon...

Though body armor has become much better and the norm in combat today, those early sand box days were a little different and both SF guys i know were amoung some of the first boots on the ground..so take the info for what its worth..

idsubgun
September 19, 2017, 11:57
Dont get me wrong,,I happen to like and have had good luck with pmags..
I use nothing but in my 300BO's,,but their range and hunting mags,,Im not going to war any time soon...

Though body armor has become much better and the norm in combat today, those early sand box days were a little different and both SF guys i know were amoung some of the first boots on the ground..so take the info for what its worth..

That's how I was introduced to P-mags. I bought FDE P-mags for my 300BO's and the rifles are FDE, or parts of them. That way I won't mix up my .223 mags with 300BO mags.
After that I bought black P-mags from Brownell's when they had 10 for $104.

And like you said, I'm not going to war anytime soon either, I hope. But with things the way they are in St. Louis, which is an hour and a half away, there might be a race war soon! :uhoh:

gunplumber
September 19, 2017, 15:51
I have p-mags, but really prefer the Lancer's. I have many of each stockpiled away and the Lancer's are my stock...

I only use the Lancers now. Prior to that, it was just USGI. Never had a problem, and even ran one over with m,y Tahoe (it fed fine). PMags weren't milspec and wouldn't function in a SCAR (yes, they could be modified). I understand they have corrected the problem, but I like the idea of metal to metal on feed lips and catch.

I'd love to see a FAL mag made like the lancer.

I wonder how the lancer rated in the test, or if it was even tested?

Mebsuta
September 19, 2017, 17:06
If the plastic magazine is dangerous when shot, what about the plastic rifel parts?

yovinny
September 20, 2017, 08:07
If the plastic magazine is dangerous when shot, what about the plastic rifel parts?

I would assume any plastic secondary projectiles entering a body would be bad..
maybe they dont blow apart like the pmags do ?
maybe the plastic rifle pieces are not normally held hanging right in front of the belly and as much of an issue ?
like I said mebs, it was enough of an issue for them to quit using pmags,,take it for what its worth.

hueyville
September 20, 2017, 08:41
Remember a combatant will have entire front side covered with magazine pouches full of magazines. Odds are if take a hit in upper front torso it's going through magazines. A lifetime of manufacturing with all types of materials glass and plastic pieces suck the worst. Have known there were pieces of Plexiglass in places needed removal and other than random searching for bigger ones had to wait for smaller pieces to get infected and follow to red infection, swelling and puss to find and some smaller pieces am sure are still inside me. New I buy mostly stainless, used I like to rebuild a few milspec aluminum whenever find rebuild kits on sale and Lancers for the oddball cartridges as can color coordinate to cartridge, metal feed lips and they don't seem picky about what round you ask them to feed. Stick a P-mag full of 6.8 and see how that works... Have had other brand plastic split down seams with age over the years so will stick with what I know works and avoid anything have had problems with. Had an opportunity to buy a lot of P-mags dirt cheap and all but two or three are sealed in original packages. The ones tried using swelled up and getting in and out of magwell could be a chore compared to my stainless and Lancers jumping out when press magazing release.

michael_g927
September 24, 2017, 03:33
Guys will argue ANYTHING! I have used government mags for 30 years as of this year. I own maybe 50 of both 20 and 30 rd types. They vary in age from mid 60's and 70's thru the 80's and 90's. The last ones i got from my last enlistment are now 15 years old. They are every follower from the green one back. I do not view mags expendible. I maintain them as well as the rifle.
The ugly. I have seen gov usgi mags go tits up. Its rare but does happen. The failures seem to be feed lip failures and dented mag tubes. Most bent lip problems can be fixed in the field. The only real dead lined mag has been cracked feed lips on the back top corners. Even dented mags can be made servicable. But at $5, one can justify stripping the parts and tossing the mag body. I have never saw usgi mags have all the trouble folks claim they have.
I have seen magpul mags be pretty bad ass. Especially in the crush or dent department. Then again i have personally seen fully loaded magpuls hit the deck on the feed lips only to spew their guts out. Then they are never reliable again. And in nearly every case the mag has split right up the rear mold seam. They are never repairable much less field expedient repairable.
With my experience, there is no need to replace usgi mags. Would i take pmags into battle? Absolutely. Is either really better than the other one? No. Is one more TacTiKool? Damned skippy! Does magpul make good to go stuff? Absolutely.
Then i encountered an HK mag. WOW! Much harder to dent. Silky smooth feeding. Damned good follower. Stainless steel construction. Whats not to like!! $60 thats what.
So my answer is. Stainless CPD mag body. Stainless CMMG double wound mag spring. Stainless CMMG follower. Whew!! Damned sexy! Straight up bullet proof. Even corrosion proof. No anode/cathode goin on here. Even great in marine environment!! A hotrodded premium quality mag for under $20. So i built 20 of them. This started back in 08. These mage are no more or less reliable than the usgi and now the pmag. The only benefit is durability. That comes at a small uptick in weight. They are 3x the cost of usgi and nearly 2x the cost of pmag. I love em. So its all good.
So here i am with 20 new springs and followers from the CPD mags before hotrodding. Excellent parts. So i bought 20 new usgi mags and fitted em up. These CPD followers fit the usgi body so well that i feel this combination is THE most antitilt of em all. Yes. Sadly. Better than my pet hotrod homebrewed 416 mags.
If CPD ever offers their spring and follower for sale as a rebuild, they will make a fortune.
Today, i find myself using my hotrod usgi mags the most.
Yes i do own pmags. I have them for my LWRCI REPR. They are in reserve to my 12 DPMS surplus mags. Magpuls will prolly never get used in my lifetime.
Of all the mags i own, they are all as good as each other. AR10, pmag and DPMS. AR15, CPD, Windham, AR Stoner, ASC, and usgi.
I cannot comment on any other brand as i have no history or experience with them.

M90A1
September 24, 2017, 08:50
Sanchez are the best.

:uhoh:

hueyville
September 25, 2017, 08:38
Local base used to take all their brass to local scrap yard. They always held for me and one reason have 5.56 once fired Lake City with IMI M855 projectiles in stacks that require a pallet jack or forklift to move. Wediner's had a pre Y2K catalog sale in 1999 that leveraged hard. Guess I will never quit this stupid habit till die. Doubt I could shoot all my ammo if stopped making more and just ran mag dumps rest of life. Base also kept a barrel that as magazines gave trouble (fired a lot of blanks with tired candidates) would throw in the barrel. Knew was getting full and rather than random stops at scrap yard for wheel weights and brass stopped every week telling them what I was waiting to come in. Finally it hit and paid mix scrap price for it as had aluminum, plastic and steel pieces, think the weight of the barrel was biggest cost. My guess was less than a dime per magazine.

Over the years would pull a dozen or so out, clean, service, use hand seamed to fix feed lips if issue and run them, give away and during Bush ban was getting $20 to $25 each and same during Sandy Hook. A while back found what I believe to be last box of them. Took apart, cleaned, put anti-tilt folowers, Magpul floor plates and new chrome silicon springs. Put the best 50 in storage after testing and rest into inventory. Out of a 55 gallon drum of "retired and malfunctioning" magazines were at best two or three that were damaged too bad to fix. Some were worn to bright white aluminum in places. Odds are two more generations will still be using them and might need to put the occasional spring kit in a few.

TenTea
September 25, 2017, 09:21
Sanchez are the best.

Duly noted. Just don't get them dirty! :devil:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/magazines/sanchez_floorplate_jaybell.jpg

michael_g927
September 25, 2017, 11:51
We pretty much have the magazine all figured out. The lowest bidder making usgi mags is making more than excellent mags. Now a guy can go tacticool boutique on mags. I really think he is only really gaining appearance and status. At the end of the day, Empty brass just keeps ending up on the ground.
I love Hueys stories. They seem to be the story of all of us. Kinda cool to read about others experiences and realize that vack on that day in time someone else, maybe 1000 miles away was doing the same things i was!
The internet is awesome!

idsubgun
September 25, 2017, 14:04
Let me debunk a myth. It's not always the lowest bidder that gets the government contract.

I worked for a shop early in my career that made many parts for the government. Many of them went "boom" during the first Gulf War. I know for a fact that some bids weren't gotten by that shop, and others in the valley, and the explanation was the bid was too low. The government probably didn't think they could be done at that price but I can tell everyone that the lowest bidder does NOT always get the bid.

Okay, back to the original conversation! lol

hueyville
September 25, 2017, 14:34
More than price plays info bids. There is a point system in which minority contractors vet an advantage. Can bid higher and still get job and why I know three local businesses where owner started a second corporation with wife as owner and let her company bid against his so if he didn't get job with lowest bid she got it because of minority business status. In end job is done by same people with same equipment. One guy somehow got his daughter Native American status and as a female Cherokee Indian her corporation rakes in government bids even though never lowest bidder. Natural blonde and nobody else in family has membership in tribe. Not mom, dad, brother or any grandparents. Word is there was a free private road built on a reservation soon after her acceptance in tribe. Hillary and Bill Clinton type business practices.

michael_g927
September 25, 2017, 16:22
Back in the 80's the airport in Chicago ( cant remember which one it was ), anyway, there was a gov paving contract awarded to a minority company. As it turned out, a big company did the job. But once a day a colored fellow with a real piece of junk dump truck would show up on the jobsite and dump his material and be gone till next day.
It was odd to be sure.
After the job was done, there was alot of squable around the union hall. As it turns out, that odd once a day truck was the contractor on record.

hueyville
September 26, 2017, 07:10
Back in the 80's the airport in Chicago ( cant remember which one it was ), anyway, there was a gov paving contract awarded to a minority company. As it turned out, a big company did the job. But once a day a colored fellow with a real piece of junk dump truck would show up on the jobsite and dump his material and be gone till next day.
It was odd to be sure.
After the job was done, there was alot of squable around the union hall. As it turns out, that odd once a day truck was the contractor on record.

Another member around here has a saying "The Chicago way..." Saw a documentary on Chicago starting with early motorcycle and auto industry around turn of century into teens, moved into Prohibition and gangsters to building contracts in the 70's and 80's. Definitely is a different place. Wife has some stories about doing sound and light rigging for concert tours as went through Chicago. While company she worked with had rigging contract for entire tour of whichever band, in Chicago the "job" was always awarded to a local union shop who sent a couple men to watch them do their gig and then money was passed laterally in cash and they moved to next town. Detroit is similar.

Have two companies do their displays for big trade shows and set up their displays in Atlanta. Union rules say only union shops in venue so first two years dropped off display at loading dock and later got a call show was starting next day and displays were all messed up so went and fixed. Now they pay the union, pay me and the union sends two men to watch me do the job but they won't so much as hold a ladder or pass a roll of tape. My guess is about 25% of cost of all products is graft and bribes at different points from raw materials to manufacturing and final delivery. Friend who has masters in economics and now a big shot for a Fortune 500 has some tales. One of my gigs the "client" has no idea company they contract with doesn't do the job and I have five of their company uniforms, I.D. badge, and signs for my truck when work for them. My deal with them is legit and 10-99's done, taxes paid but how they honor their contracts is nothing to do with me. When some of their employees discovered "contractors" were doing company work they sabatoged a job site done by a contractor landing them in hands of the police. I can only imagine how odd some government contracts get.

Notice Fluke makes same line of meters with majority made in China now but keep a made in USA line. I buy the U.S. and pay a 15% to 30% premium as does military and all dot gov. U.S. military has to use U.S. made tools on nuclear submarines and fighter jets to pocket watches. Fluke takes all the subassemblies in largest chunks legal from Chinese plamts, ship to U.S. for final assembly and box/tool says "made in U.S.A." though not anything but box is printed here and assembly of Chinese parts but the U.S. stuff has lifetime as opposed to one year warranty. My vendor asked me why paid the extra and told them it's a few more jobs in U.S. Heard yesterday everytime we have a significant raise in minimum wage manufacturing has a proportionate transition from hand assembly to robotic assembly. The bottom line is profit and pencil pushers know the tipping point in wages and benefits where a million dollar robot pays for itself. Why China will win in manufacturing if we don't adapt. Their new dam if doesn't collapse and the huge abundance of cheap electricity it provides is going to put a hurt on U.S. manufacturing. Remember movie "Armegeddon" where Russian Cosmonaut tells U.S. Astronaut Americn systems/Russian systems all built buy lowest bidder in China as wails on the ship with a BFH. Lot of truth there. Segway off, might want to get back to magazines.

Wonder where the springs, followers and other individual parts come from?

michael_g927
September 26, 2017, 10:02
I used to do some stuff in chicago. I grew up just around the lake from there. It always amazed me how the union has that place all sewn up.
It was so bad (and i myself am a union guy ((yankee at that))), that when we were setting up at shows, when we needed to plug in tools, extension cords, or anything, we had to wait for UNION ELECTRICIANS to do it, as it was considered their work.