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View Full Version : If CETMEs are so dang weak...


johnnycobra
September 01, 2017, 14:56
I have a little bit of confusion, brought on from years of seeing spanish mausers (small ring) converted to 308 and being told they will blow up if you use them because they were made for "CETME" ammo, lower pressure than 7.62X51.
This was not the FR-8 Mauser built on a large ring and long before anyone brought in CETME rifles in quantity.

It seems like these rebuilt CETMEs have no problem swallowing NATO ammo or commercial 7.62. Is that because the delayed roller system in a CETME can handle low pressure "CETME" ammo as well as regular NATO stuff? Or were the myths of the low pressure CETME round for the delicate spanish CETME just a bunch of pre-internet hysteria?

SAFN49
September 01, 2017, 15:47
I have a little bit of confusion, brought on from years of seeing spanish mausers (small ring) converted to 308 and being told they will blow up if you use them because they were made for "CETME" ammo, lower pressure than 7.62X51.
This was not the FR-8 Mauser built on a large ring and long before anyone brought in CETME rifles in quantity.

It seems like these rebuilt CETMEs have no problem swallowing NATO ammo or commercial 7.62. Is that because the delayed roller system in a CETME can handle low pressure "CETME" ammo as well as regular NATO stuff? Or were the myths of the low pressure CETME round for the delicate spanish CETME just a bunch of pre-internet hysteria?

The Cetme ammo is CSP 003 CETME. It used a lighter bullet and < 50,000 psi. It was made for the small ring Mauser conversions for the police. The later CETME large ring and semi autos can handle 50,000 psi of 7.62 x 51. I would not recommend shooting a metric sh!t ton of .308 Winchester in them @ 52,000 psi.

21HK
September 01, 2017, 15:47
From Wiki:
The first prototype rifles fired the same 7.9233mm Kurz round as the StG45, and a variety of experimental 7.92 and 7.62mm cartridges were tested before settling on the 7.6251mm CETME. This round was dimensionally identical to 7.6251mm NATO, but with a lighter bullet and powder charge to reduce recoil, making fully automatic fire more controllable. Due to feedback from Heckler & Koch, the production rifle was chambered for the more powerful 7.62mm NATO. The Model B went on to be the foundation of the widely deployed Heckler & Koch G3 battle rifle.

Ironically I just found/bought a copy of this magazine about a week ago on eBay and read the article today.
The link is on a Spanish website and may take a minute to load. Scroll down half way for the English version.

Guns magazine: November, 1967 (http://cetme.foroactivo.com/t128-revista-ejercito-ano-1968-n-346-cetme-sport)

http://i.imgur.com/Dd8Lu8t.jpg

hueyville
September 10, 2017, 20:21
Bought my first CETME on a lark after posting here and learning all the tests necessary to run safely because was in pristine condition and dirt cheap. Carried it for a couple months and used for breaking rocks, shooting stumps and any other targets of opportunity at mixed ranges on large construction sites just after loggers or graders had finished but before next crews moved in. Discovered that it handled well, shot soft, was 100% reliable and magazines are $3.99 to $5.99 each.

Added more rifles and magazines as deals pop up because seem to be as fine battle rifle can buy for the money if get a good one which juse takes good inspection before buying. There are a lot of bad ones that discredit them some but also hold resale value down which is good for buyers. At point am adding spare parts and have so many magazines can't waste the fireproof storage on any but the high quality steel mags. Have fired all of mine with 7.62 NATO specification ammo and the first unit has seen around 700 rounds of ZQI and all measurements are same as when purchased.

Today had to order some reloading spare parts from Midway and they had their "Leapers UTG Deluxe Stanag Claw Mount H&K Matte" on sale. Says it will not fit CETME rifles but the claw mount for my H&K fits the CETME rifles. If have any issues plan to grind or weld as necessary to upper of one of my mid quality shooters. Going to put a basic thermal scope on it and put in rack of night vision rifles. An extra battle rifle with night vision and not hurting inventory of daytime rifles is always a good end of civilization rifle. Of course thermal will work in daylight buts not a Leupold VX-8. If trip across a 7.62 CETME tomorrow at fair price, passes full inspection and has nice bore will add it to the pile.

Texgunner
September 10, 2017, 21:23
I bought one of the Century "Black Widows" (I believe that's what Century called it) from a member here quite a few years ago now. It is a really good shooter; both bolt gap and charging handle gap were fine and no mucked up bolt either. It is accurate and reliable but still has that loud Century brake. I have a Cetme flash hider for it but just never have gotten around to trying the swap.

It uses Cetme or HK mags and I have a bunch of the HK alloy mags from when they were about .50 each I think. I bought some Cetme wood furniture for it a while back but could never get all the needed parts for that swap. I removed the handguard when I first bought it and lined it with multiple layers of aluminum foil to cut down on the heat. That works well and no need for a chicken mitt...:biggrin:

yellowhand
September 10, 2017, 22:10
Tex, Huey, I'm in your camp, got one, shoots soft, reliable and handles very well, feels good to carry and shoot.

Got a couple of the C93's, and they also run perfectly, with very good bolt gaps on all.

Actually bought the magazines for both before picking up either rifle:D
Think I paid .97 cents for the 308 and 18.00 each for the C93's.
Wish I had picked up more than 20 each for the C93's @18 each, damn things are gold standard today at 60.00 or more.
Did snag 50 of the 308 ones, been giving them away to people picking up rifles ever since.:D

gunplumber
September 11, 2017, 08:36
Having some recent experience with a full auto CETME B restoration, I learned a lot in the last month about variations.

The bolt carrier on an A/B has weight reducing cuts on it. The C does not and is HK profile on the sides.

This supposedly is for the different power ammo.

So this Cetme B I was working on was made for the 7.62 Cetme, but someone had drilled out the sleeve in the bolt carrier in a misguided attempt to use an HK stock. The replacement was a model C, which is heavier for the 7.62 NATO.

In researching this, I noted one person seeking the 7.62 CETME lightened bolts as a start for using the HK training ammo. I also recall G3 bolts drilled out and filled with tunston as a factory attempt to make them heavier (to slow down cyclic?).

As to the safety of 7.62 NATO in a small ring, I can't say. I've always avoided the FR7s for that reason, and stuck with the FR8s. But my concern may be unfounded.

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620171_980574775418598_7313520884109304013_o.jpg ?oh=151e75a3b34ad607c85f9f8b3ade3065&oe=5A494E47

yellowhand
September 11, 2017, 11:56
Having some recent experience with a full auto CETME B restoration, I learned a lot in the last month about variations.

The bolt carrier on an A/B has weight reducing cuts on it. The C does not and is HK profile on the sides.

This supposedly is for the different power ammo.

So this Cetme B I was working on was made for the 7.62 Cetme, but someone had drilled out the sleeve in the bolt carrier in a misguided attempt to use an HK stock. The replacement was a model C, which is heavier for the 7.62 NATO.

In researching this, I noted one person seeking the 7.62 CETME lightened bolts as a start for using the HK training ammo. I also recall G3 bolts drilled out and filled with tunston as a factory attempt to make them heavier (to slow down cyclic?).

As to the safety of 7.62 NATO in a small ring, I can't say. I've always avoided the FR7s for that reason, and stuck with the FR8s. But my concern may be unfounded.

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620171_980574775418598_7313520884109304013_o.jpg ?oh=151e75a3b34ad607c85f9f8b3ade3065&oe=5A494E47

When you test fired this one, how did it handle, could ya control it?????

One day, got to have you pull off the muzzle things Century slapped on my three rifles, only real complaint I have about them.
No idea what to replace them with, but for sure, these noise makers need to go!:wink:

gunplumber
September 11, 2017, 12:15
When you test fired this one, how did it handle, could ya control it?????

One day, got to have you pull off the muzzle things Century slapped on my three rifles, only real complaint I have about them.
No idea what to replace them with, but for sure, these noise makers need to go!:wink:

Well, at 25 yards my three round burst had one round on paper.

yellowhand
September 11, 2017, 12:18
Well, at 25 yards my three round burst had one round on paper.

About what I expected!:facepalm:

johnnycobra
September 11, 2017, 21:08
Having some recent experience with a full auto CETME B restoration, I learned a lot in the last month about variations.

The bolt carrier on an A/B has weight reducing cuts on it. The C does not and is HK profile on the sides.

This supposedly is for the different power ammo.

So this Cetme B I was working on was made for the 7.62 Cetme, but someone had drilled out the sleeve in the bolt carrier in a misguided attempt to use an HK stock. The replacement was a model C, which is heavier for the 7.62 NATO.

In researching this, I noted one person seeking the 7.62 CETME lightened bolts as a start for using the HK training ammo. I also recall G3 bolts drilled out and filled with tunston as a factory attempt to make them heavier (to slow down cyclic?).

As to the safety of 7.62 NATO in a small ring, I can't say. I've always avoided the FR7s for that reason, and stuck with the FR8s. But my concern may be unfounded.

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19620171_980574775418598_7313520884109304013_o.jpg ?oh=151e75a3b34ad607c85f9f8b3ade3065&oe=5A494E47

That's pretty cool! And with a wronghanded selector too. Is that transferable, or a sample?

I had a spanish model 1916 Small Ring sporterized into 308 in around 1991. Great and handy rifle. The bolt seemed to get awefully loose after less than 100 rounds. No idea if it had 1 or 1,000 rounds through it before I got it. I didnt have headspace gauges, but was a tack driver. Wasnt an FR7, but basically the same thing. This got me researching CETME cartridges and spanish rifles in the library back before I had internet. Always been in the back of my mind that there was something to the CETME cartridge thing, but it turned out my rifle was a US made guNsmith experiment on a former 7mm mauser.

12v71
September 11, 2017, 21:31
A friend of mine loads for the Spanish "LaGaurdia" .308 rifle using pretty much 300 savage loadings and has had great success with those loads.

gunplumber
September 11, 2017, 21:42
Is that transferable, or a sample?

Posty.

21HK
September 11, 2017, 22:55
...I also recall G3 bolts drilled out and filled with tunston as a factory attempt to make them heavier (to slow down cyclic?).


The tungsten filler was added to control bolt bounce.

hueyville
September 14, 2017, 19:38
Definitely prefer wood furniture on them.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2irkztt.jpg

LGS puts all 7.62 NATO trade-ins in rack of back room till I get by and do a full inspection. If not a cobbled up bolt, bolt gap and charging handle is right, chamber and bore good they go home with me as shop doesn't give much trade in value on them. Guy came in today with a Model 12 Winchester with vent rib, 98 to 99% finish and beautiful wood. Properly advertised would bring $800 to $1,000 and guy happily traded it dead even for an older Glock 17. It's drop dead near perfect and gorgeous, if Model 12's had two operating rods on pump would have discussed buying it due to condition. Was odd as same time they were making the fancy grade M12's were selling the "Rangers" in the $150 range new out door with dual op rods. Last two CETME's through shop have been 5.56 and don't need a 10 pound poodle shooter that's been beat together by drunken monkeys.

The claw mount from Midway that said may not fit CETME's and were specifically for H&K's fit dead solid perfect on the rifle want to use it on. Mounted a Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle just to test with glass while scrounge up a thermal scope to stick on it. Think a mid priced thermal on the CETME will make a good extra night time fighting rifle.

Texgunner
September 14, 2017, 20:16
My "sporter" out in the woods:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/CETME%20Sporter/PICT3455.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/CETME%20Sporter/PICT3455.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/CETME%20Sporter/CETMEatthefarmleftside.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/CETME%20Sporter/CETMEatthefarmleftside.jpg.html)