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the gman
August 30, 2017, 15:24
Look, with no offense to those who hail from Oz, just because you lived in Lithgow or are an Aussie doesn't mean you are an expert on the L1A1 or allow you to jack up the price of a rifle built on an Enterprise receiver....

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/676811525

$3,895 for a rifle whose chief claim to fame is it has a new US made barrel on it which is melonited and thus "Our barrels have an entirely different barrel harmonic than ordinary FAL/L1A1 due to the extra rigidity from the meloniting." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

GTFO. I know the guy has a shop near Santa Fe but he needs to stop smoking the crap from Espanola and stop with asinine comments like the following: "Our customers say that these melonited barrels of ours shoot like lasers, this is not an ordinary FAL/L1A1 rifle so you cannot ask ordinary FAL/L1A1 builders about this rifles as they do not know anything about it." :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

If that wasn't bad enough, I guess I should order a 1260 round ammo can of SA surplus for the extraordinarily cheap price of only $1,739 plus shipping...:eek::eek::eek::eek: :whistling::whistling:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/688804612

Kb466
August 30, 2017, 17:12
We have been through this again and again-- seems about once a month. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. Plain and simple. I have dealt with Anthony of Croc's Gun Shop and found him to be an extraordinarily knowledgeable and talented builder. He is a great fellow too. He built up my L1A1/SLR from my Aussie parts, barrel and Entreprise receiver-- and no, he didn't charge me anywhere close to this price. I was and still am very happy with his work.
My concern is whether we are going to open the doors to open criticism of others listings and pricing. Seems like a slippery slope.
And by the way, I have no ties to Anthony except as a satisfied customer.
Bill M.

Trypcil
August 30, 2017, 17:57
I hope he does sell it for a high price, because its worth it - and so are all of mine, and yours also! if someone really wants it, well more should be so inspired - I have a US made Aussie barrel on an Aussie kit, Dsa Forged rcvr., and yes it shoots very well - I value it also as at least $3250 - if you know what i mean?:D You can't catch, if you don't fish?:p

Illurian00
August 30, 2017, 19:18
blah blah blah,,,but do your rifels shoot like laizurz >?

spider991
August 30, 2017, 19:24
Well he does say these are sub-moa "if you can shoot good".... I'm certainly not an expert, far from it...I would like to hear from the smart guys on this forum, on this being Gman always has good intentions! Especially if it keeps one of our new guys from buying something horribly priced and misrepresented. I would love to hear one of our resident smith's opinion...GP, WEG or one of the other "old" guys.:angel:

tac-40
August 30, 2017, 20:03
I would love for it to sell at that price. My insurance assessment will go up threefold, at least. I have several melonited barrels and they do shoot very well. So my opinion about them is still out as to why.

Anything "special", "rare", "custom built" used in the description of firearms makes me look closely at the product being sold. As posted above, documentation of a 1 MOA shooting FAL in a normal configuration would be more valuable than all the other stuff.

Thorack
August 30, 2017, 20:27
Well,

the gman runs his gob at times, but here he is correct. In my opinion the US barrels are way over priced regardless of melonite. I have four all Aussie guns, made from all NOS Aussie kits, except the DSA receivers, they all have NOS Lithgow barrels. They would currently not bring that price. That price is not within current market values. That said, you dont like it, dont buy it.

Thorack

ActionYobbo
August 30, 2017, 20:38
can we combine all the croc bashing threads into 1 big whine.
seems like every month some one "discovers" his stuff and then run as fast as they can to "the files" to post it while calling to their mother from the basement "Ma hey Ma guess what I just posted on the files"

ALL FAL
August 30, 2017, 21:01
So, I'll throw my giant Penis over my shoulder and go on home. :p

the gman
August 30, 2017, 21:50
can we combine all the croc bashing threads into 1 big whine.
seems like every month some one "discovers" his stuff and then run as fast as they can to "the files" to post it while calling to their mother from the basement "Ma hey Ma guess what I just posted on the files"

I did do a search using the Files search engine to see if anything had been posted about this guy before but only found one thread. FYI, I own my own home and support my own family so GFY.

the gman
August 30, 2017, 22:22
We have been through this again and again-- seems about once a month. If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. Plain and simple. I have dealt with Anthony of Croc's Gun Shop and found him to be an extraordinarily knowledgeable and talented builder. He is a great fellow too. He built up my L1A1/SLR from my Aussie parts, barrel and Entreprise receiver-- and no, he didn't charge me anywhere close to this price. I was and still am very happy with his work.
My concern is whether we are going to open the doors to open criticism of others listings and pricing. Seems like a slippery slope.
And by the way, I have no ties to Anthony except as a satisfied customer.
Bill M.

No slippery slope. If someone's products are vastly overpriced then it is absolutely within the realm of reasonable criticism to say so. I get that he's your buddy and he did you right, I found that in the one thread about him I was able to find. If you'd been here long enough, you'd know that I'm originally from the UK and served in the British Army where I was trained to work on the L1A1 and actually carried one in harms way.

I saw no such information on your buddy other than he's an Aussie and lived in Lithgow at some point. Big whoop for him. Not saying he's untalented or unable to screw together a working L1A1 but when you're asking well over the odds for a rifle, slamming others out there who've forgotten more about the weapon than he's ever likely to know and claiming to be God's gift with extremely dubious and well disproven bullshit claims, he can expect be called to account for it. Bullshit like melonite makes barrels more rigid is absolute horseshit and calls into question his knowledge and talent.

FYI, I was involved in some testing of melonite barrels well over a decade ago and working with the largest supplier of melonite sevices for barrels in the US, even they didn't make such insane, unvalidated and outrageous claims. I prefer melonite on barrels and high wear items but it sure as hell doesn't make barrels any stiffer than chrome or park. :facepalm:

I too live in NM and the next time I'm over by Santa Fag, I'll try to make time to swing by his shop and tell him in person that I think he's full of shit. Hell, if he was to say that he uses Krieger or Shilen or any other extremely reputable premium barrel maker's products, then the price might be more justifiable. As it is, the price is ridiculous and no, I will never buy one because, as with his ammo prices, he is nothing more than a rip off merchant. Over a $1 a round for ammo that I was buying a decade ago for 14 cents a round delivered to ABQ? GTFO. :skull::skull:

Kb466
August 31, 2017, 08:18
No, he's not my "buddy". I had one transaction with him and was very pleased, and impressed with the guy and his operation. He had the most impressive set of original Lithgow tools and parts that I had ever seen. I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about his prices. I guess that is what his stuff is worth to him. But name-calling (horse shit, bullshit and ripoff merchant) is not "reasonable criticism". Posting links to his auctions and bashing someone you don't even know over his prices is not warranted and is probably a violation of this forum's rules. With that said, I am done with this.
Bill M.
No slippery slope. If someone's products are vastly overpriced then it is absolutely within the realm of reasonable criticism to say so. I get that he's your buddy and he did you right, I found that in the one thread about him I was able to find. If you'd been here long enough, you'd know that I'm originally from the UK and served in the British Army where I was trained to work on the L1A1 and actually carried one in harms way.

I saw no such information on your buddy other than he's an Aussie and lived in Lithgow at some point. Big whoop for him. Not saying he's untalented or unable to screw together a working L1A1 but when you're asking well over the odds for a rifle, slamming others out there who've forgotten more about the weapon than he's ever likely to know and claiming to be God's gift with extremely dubious and well disproven bullshit claims, he can expect be called to account for it. Bullshit like melonite makes barrels more rigid is absolute horseshit and calls into question his knowledge and talent.

FYI, I was involved in some testing of melonite barrels well over a decade ago and working with the largest supplier of melonite sevices for barrels in the US, even they didn't make such insane, unvalidated and outrageous claims. I prefer melonite on barrels and high wear items but it sure as hell doesn't make barrels any stiffer than chrome or park. :facepalm:

I too live in NM and the next time I'm over by Santa Fag, I'll try to make time to swing by his shop and tell him in person that I think he's full of shit. Hell, if he was to say that he uses Krieger or Shilen or any other extremely reputable premium barrel maker's products, then the price might be more justifiable. As it is, the price is ridiculous and no, I will never buy one because, as with his ammo prices, he is nothing more than a rip off merchant. Over a $1 a round for ammo that I was buying a decade ago for 14 cents a round delivered to ABQ? GTFO. :skull::skull:

gunplumber
August 31, 2017, 08:29
The guy is full of shit. I don't care how "talented" one thinks he is, or what a "nice guy" he is, he is still full of shit. I would never deal with someone making such absurd claims. He can market his product for whatever price he wants, that isn't the issue. The issue is he is either delusional, or a liar, or both. As someone who should know better, I'm going to drop the delusional as an option, and just identify him as a liar.

Calling out a liar, as a liar, is discernment, not "name calling". It is an accurate identification and classification of observed reality. Calling him a piece of shit would be a value judgement and opinion of how a liar should be classified. But "Liar" and "Full of shit" (as a euphemism for liar) is simple fact.

You'd be much better off buying from me, because I bless each rifle with the tears of John Moses Browning, which I got from the Pope (JP2) when I was advising him, Ronnie, and Maggie, on ending the cold war.

medicmike
August 31, 2017, 09:11
The guy is full of shit. I don't care how "talented" one thinks he is, or what a "nice guy" he is, he is still full of shit. I would never deal with someone making such absurd claims. He can market his product for whatever price he wants, that isn't the issue. The issue is he is either delusional, or a liar, or both. As someone who should know better, I'm going to drop the delusional as an option, and just identify him as a liar.



Exactly this, IDGAS about his prices, and at those prices he will likely be hanging on to his merchandise for quite a while, totally his choice. It's the total BS in his ad that he uses to try and justify those prices that would make me hesitant to buy a wheelbarrow from this guy. I think the gman is quite justified in calling him out on that.

Also, even though a person is well within their rights to charge whatever they like for their product, we are also well within our right to call them out and warn others about it. It is often good for a laugh as well.

PvtJoker
August 31, 2017, 15:37
The guy is full of shit. I don't care how "talented" one thinks he is, or what a "nice guy" he is, he is still full of shit. I would never deal with someone making such absurd claims. He can market his product for whatever price he wants, that isn't the issue. The issue is he is either delusional, or a liar, or both. As someone who should know better, I'm going to drop the delusional as an option, and just identify him as a liar.

Calling out a liar, as a liar, is discernment, not "name calling". It is an accurate identification and classification of observed reality. Calling him a piece of shit would be a value judgement and opinion of how a liar should be classified. But "Liar" and "Full of shit" (as a euphemism for liar) is simple fact.

You'd be much better off buying from me, because I bless each rifle with the tears of John Moses Browning, which I got from the Pope (JP2) when I was advising him, Ronnie, and Maggie, on ending the cold war.

But won't the melonite rust if you leave the tears on it? :biggrin:

How exactly does he presume the melonite, by making the surface harder, is supposed to alter the overall stiffness of the barrel's core metal? I don't claim to be an expert on either subject but from what I do understand of both, the melonite treatment only penetrates a small amount into the outer part of the metal. I could see where it would reduce wear compared to plain steel barrels and where it would not alter the dimensions like chrome lining would (ever so slightly) but the rest of the metal in the barrel is still going to be the same as it was before, right? If I am missing something here, please let me know but the claim on its surface (if you'll pardon the pun) doesn't seem reasonable...

hkshooter
August 31, 2017, 19:51
The farther from current market value the price is the more of an idiot the seller looks. People can "wish" values that high all day long. They can also shit in one hand and wish in the other to see which hand fills up first.
The guy is off his rocker with those prices, don't give a damn what a few fans say.
I agree with GP and Thorack.

Lee Carpentieri
August 31, 2017, 22:11
An interesting article. Melonite is the registered trade name owned by Durferritt for the Salt Bath Nitriding(SBN)process also commonly called just nitriding. SBN is well known by the gun industry used to provide improved corrosion resistance, resistance to wear and fatique and lubricity.

Doesn't say anything about improving accuracy.

Andy the Aussie
September 01, 2017, 00:55
And here I was thinking there was finally a thread all about ME :uhoh::uhoh::rofl:

raubvogel
September 01, 2017, 05:11
And here I was thinking there was finally a thread all about ME :uhoh::uhoh::rofl:

https://danceswithdissonance.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/futurama-yay-pay-att-to-me.gif

J. Armstrong
September 01, 2017, 07:21
Posting links to his auctions and bashing someone you don't even know over his prices is not warranted and is probably a violation of this forum's rules.
.

And just where do you draw that conclusion from ?

J. Armstrong
September 01, 2017, 07:25
And here I was thinking there was finally a thread all about ME :uhoh::uhoh::rofl:

No, THAT is against forum rules :rofl::rofl::wink:

Bug Tussell
September 01, 2017, 10:18
And just where do you draw that conclusion from ?

Because he FEELS like it should be a violation, that's where.

J. Armstrong
September 01, 2017, 11:17
Silly me !!!:facepalm::D;)

the gman
September 01, 2017, 11:25
No, he's not my "buddy". I had one transaction with him and was very pleased, and impressed with the guy and his operation. He had the most impressive set of original Lithgow tools and parts that I had ever seen. I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about his prices. I guess that is what his stuff is worth to him. But name-calling (horse shit, bullshit and ripoff merchant) is not "reasonable criticism". Posting links to his auctions and bashing someone you don't even know over his prices is not warranted and is probably a violation of this forum's rules. With that said, I am done with this.
Bill M.

No newb, its not a violation of this forum's rules. :rolleyes: Here's an idea: call H&M Metal Processing as they are the foremost suppliers of nitriding services to the gun industry and ask them if the process adds rigidity to the barrel... :facepalm::facepalm:

http://blacknitride.com/contact-us/

Asking $8+ a gallon in a hurricane zone makes you a rip off merchant. As does asking over 3 times the going rate for ammo.

Words have meanings:

rip-off
ˈrip ˌŰf/
noun informal
noun: rip-off; plural noun: rip-offs; noun: ripoff; plural noun: ripoffs

a fraud or swindle, especially something that is grossly overpriced.
"designer label clothes are just expensive rip-offs"
synonyms: fraud, cheat, deception, swindle, confidence trick;

His claims are horseshit. Period. End of conversation. I can claim that my super coating for your engine will make it last longer, produce more horsepower and increase your sex drive but without empirical proof to back up my claims, it is entirely fair for someone to call me a bullshitter and a con man.

con man
ˈkšn man/
noun informal
noun: con man; plural noun: con men; noun: conman; plural noun: conmen; noun: con-man; plural noun: con-men; noun: con artist; plural noun: con artists

a man who cheats or tricks someone by gaining their trust and persuading them to believe something that is not true.


Now I'm done. :D

pistolero1911
September 01, 2017, 11:26
Melonite is like Vegemite, mates.

What it don't kill, it makes stronger.

Kb466
September 01, 2017, 11:40
Bug,
Do your homework before you accuse me of making things up. Go look at the Forum Rules of Engagement above. Unlike you, I have looked at the forum rules and it seems to me that this discussion is clearly in violation of those rules. Personal attacks such as "full of shit", "liar", etc. seem to be non-professional, agenda-driven personal attacks that have no place on this forum.
As I have said, I have no ties to Croc's Gun Shop except as a one-time satisfied customer. I obviously can't stop you from slandering Anthony and then for the rest of you to delightedly pile on. But don't accuse me of making things up when you have no idea. That said-- i reallly am done with this...
Bill M.
[QUOTE=Bug Tussell;4472210]Because he FEELS like it should be a violation, that's where.[/

miles1919
September 01, 2017, 12:06
@ gunplumber can i buy the just the blessing and if so how much? My fals have lost their way :bigangel::wink: :D:D:D:bow:

J. Armstrong
September 01, 2017, 14:18
[QUOTE=Kb466;4472242]Personal attacks such as "full of shit", "liar", etc. seem to be non-professional, agenda-driven personal attacks that have no place on this forum. QUOTE

Well, you obviously don't know the Files very well. If they are your idea of horrible, evil personal attacks, you need to retreat to the warm fuzzy comfort of, say, Arfcom or THR. Around here that stuff doesn't even come close to personal attacks. Even more so when the comments expressed are fundamentally true.

He is welcome to make any claims he wants, and to charge whatever he wishes, true enough. But that doesn't mean we have to buy it, literally or figuratively.He may be a great guy, may do great work, but that does not mean he is immune from people expressing their opinions or refusing to spend their money with him. Pretty simple, really.

Of course, if he can demonstrate that the rifle in question is in fact a true 1 moa FAL, the price wouldn't seem so bad. Of course, a FAL which can consistently shoot 1 moa is about as common as a dodo ( I would daresay nonexistent, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt ) so I'm inclined to view his claim with, shall we say, extreme skepticism.

Bug Tussell
September 01, 2017, 14:33
I thought he was done with this discussion last time. I guess he felt he wasn't. I wonder if he will be done this time.

Yes, please educate me on forum rules. Especially the Feels section which I can't seem to find.

and now I'm really, really, super really, done, kinda sorta.

tdb59
September 01, 2017, 14:36
https://danceswithdissonance.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/futurama-yay-pay-att-to-me.gif

How dare you post the image of a banned member of this Forum !!





..................

Bug Tussell
September 01, 2017, 15:08
I thought he was done with this discussion last time. I guess he felt he wasn't. I wonder if he will be done this time.

Yes, please educate me on forum rules. Especially the Feels section which I can't seem to find.

and now I'm really, really, super really, done, kinda sorta.

gunplumber
September 01, 2017, 15:39
Personal attacks such as "full of shit", "liar", etc. . . . have no place on this forum.

Except he is "full of shit" . . . a liar. And he deserves to be called out on it.

can't stop you from slandering Anthony

that word does not means what you apparently think it does.

gunplumber
September 01, 2017, 15:45
Asking $8+ a gallon in a hurricane zone makes you a rip off merchant.

No, it makes you one who is aware of rapidly changing market conditions.

As does asking over 3 times the going rate for ammo.

Nope - it just makes one a person who values the ammo more than most people in the market would, most of the time.

Riversidesports
September 01, 2017, 17:53
My 25 Centavos...

I regularly get this crap in my face at shows.
Have a great old Colt SAA, 1877 manufacture Cavalry pistol that someone fitted with an 1860 Army grip frame. Gun is tight as new, perfect bore.
Tagged it at $3200, I'd let it go for $2800

and there is always some asshat bitching about my price. Generally they offer like a grand after whining my valuation is way out of line.
I can take the damn thing apart and get well over two thousand in the damn parts.
but it's not matching !!!
I Don't give a shit...if it was it would be $7000+

My response is to laugh straight in their face telling them "That's not going to happen" then just turning my back on them.

Pops had an asshole try to offer under a grand on a preban FN Belgian FAL recently. See, he claimed he only wanted the RECEIVER !

We get this crap on a routine basis

Anyways I don't sweat what someone wants for whatever. That's THEIR business

As far as melonite, etc
Cavat Emptor

I shoot vintage English Parker Hale rifles
Have both Whitworth and Henry rifled percussions from the 1970s

Folks make crazy claims over the hex bore Whitworth
truth be told in my experience the Henry rifling is more accurate for me.

Cyro processing was a real fad years ago. It actually effected molecular level changes in barrels. Sometimes accuracy improved, sometimes no change.
I generally only used it before having older Nickel Steel Winchester barrel recut to larger bores as it eliminated the common issues with chatter but many acted as though it was the bees knees for ultimate accuracy :facepalm:

Anyways I read claims on GunJoker as just that, claims

Impala_Guy
September 01, 2017, 18:07
There's always someone out there who simply doesn't know what they are talking about. I had some stereotypical Opie in an NRA hat and padded vest ruin the sale of a nice clean Browning Auto 5 shotgun for me by telling the buyer that the gun was obviously refinished because "the metal should be slightly raised around that roll marked decorative pattern on the receiver." Even a casual Browning enthusiast knows that every single grade 1 Auto 5 and Superposed shotgun from tbe early 50s onward was hand engraved before final polish and bluing.

tdb59
September 01, 2017, 18:29
.......



....that word does not means what you apparently think it does.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MDhzp1DdSi8/Tjv4A5Wg02I/AAAAAAAAAyo/Wn844or0Vv8/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Inigo+Montoya+-+Mandy+Patinkin+-+Princess+Bride.gif

hueyville
September 01, 2017, 18:29
While I have gone toe to toe with each over a thing or three if Gman and GP agree on a general concept have to let respect for their knowledge of the gun industry as a whole and the FAL especially that it's better to take their advice on the front end than have regrets on the rear end. This "Croc" fellow I have no personal knowledge of nor done business with him to say anything negative or positive about his knowledge or the quality of his builds but when I read the quote I can't help but ponder who would make such a statement:

Our barrels have an entirely different barrel harmonic than ordinary FAL/L1A1 due to the extra rigidity from the meloniting

Have sent barrels off for cryofreezing, the once popular "Blackstar Microscopic Polishing", deep salt bath treatment a.k.a. Melonite and multiple finishes that were purely cosmetic or had some new proprietary process that claimed aided in accuracy or durability. There is no way I can see how Melonite or deep salt bath treating can cause any significant change in barrel harmonics. Having a barrel fluted, changing muzzle devices and other things can change harmonics of a barrel immensely. Just changing the torque value of a muzzle device will change its harmonics. Can take a rifle and put muzzle device "A" on and shoot for groups, retension muzzle device and group size will change. Swap to muzzle device "B" shoot, retension again and group size changes again. There have been barrels have swapped muzzle device three to five times with three different torque values per device till found device that shot best on that barrel. Cryofreezing can help with accuracy as the deep freeze rearranges and aligns molecules in the steel just enough to stabilize harmonics and decrease shot to shot stringing.

Over the years have spent a lot of money having almost everything done to a barrel possible. Machine just enough off rear of barrel to allow recutting chamber to match dimensions and throat to desired length, flutes cut for changing harmonics or cooling surface area, send of for freezing or deep salt bath treatment, buying Shilen, Douglas, Kreiger, or others to be sent to a smith for profiling, chambering and assembling on blueprinted actions. Had one smith that built my bolt action rifles that had three basic muzzle breaks, once rifle was built would try each then whichever shot best according to way it grouped and his experience would alter ports in the brake till wrung all accuracy possible out of barrel similar to what the Browning BOSS System attempted. Give the shooter an ability to,adjust barrel harmonics to load.

A lifetime of spending "F Class" along with lightweight and midweight benchrest barrel money have learned a lot about bedding actions, free floating barrels, pressure pads on barrels, flutes, brakes and little tricks like lapping throats, setting up rifles with no free bore or extra free bore like Weatherby have learned a few things. First is a quality rifle smith is worth his weight in gold. But one thing I can say is that giving an FAL barrel a deep salt bath by any name no matter it's country of origin is going to make it shoot like a laser. Too many variables in the FAL design such as heavy and mushy triggers (can be improved but not to match quality safely), vertical stringing due to bolt carriers fit in rails (can snug it up some but too much and gun will bind up), fact that it's a repeater and add in its piston operated which negatively affects barrel harmonics and so many other little things stacking up adding to accuracy issues.

If someone is consistently building sub MOA FAL mixmasters seems like everyone on the Files would have heard of it, would be topic regularly discussed and I would already have three. Sell me a fair priced FAL that groups under 1 MOA and after 500 rounds if still shooting sub MOA will buy another. If it shoots sub MOA and holds true for 500 rounds and first is still near 1 MOA at 1,000 rounds will buy a third. Market a $2,000 1 MOA out of the box FAL and you will have a waiting list. But dipping it in molten salt and calling it magic voodoo makes me want to get in line behind Gman as I know he has shot barrels pre melonite and post melonite treated enough to know if there is voodoo in the hot salt he would have whispered it in our ears years ago.

No dog in the hunt except want a 1 MOA FAL really bad and out of all have purchased or screwed together only one L1a1 will do it and I paid up when purchased from an elderly Files member clearing out a premium collection. So yes it's possible but not common. Does this Cockodile character have a uTube video showing his rifles (not rifle) but rifles plural dropping five rounds in an inch at 100 yards? If so I may need to actually consider following the link.

raubvogel
September 01, 2017, 21:56
How dare you post the image of a banned member of this Forum !!





..................

https://i.imgflip.com/on84r.jpg
That and any day I can quote this movie is a good day.

baker72
September 02, 2017, 16:50
LMFAO more ads for Anthony kept it up mate

Silly sepo


Will


Look, with no offense to those who hail from Oz, just because you lived in Lithgow or are an Aussie doesn't mean you are an expert on the L1A1 or allow you to jack up the price of a rifle built on an Enterprise receiver....

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/676811525

$3,895 for a rifle whose chief claim to fame is it has a new US made barrel on it which is melonited and thus "Our barrels have an entirely different barrel harmonic than ordinary FAL/L1A1 due to the extra rigidity from the meloniting." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

GTFO. I know the guy has a shop near Santa Fe but he needs to stop smoking the crap from Espanola and stop with asinine comments like the following: "Our customers say that these melonited barrels of ours shoot like lasers, this is not an ordinary FAL/L1A1 rifle so you cannot ask ordinary FAL/L1A1 builders about this rifles as they do not know anything about it." :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

If that wasn't bad enough, I guess I should order a 1260 round ammo can of SA surplus for the extraordinarily cheap price of only $1,739 plus shipping...:eek::eek::eek::eek: :whistling::whistling:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/688804612

baker72
September 02, 2017, 18:29
Anthony Ask me to post this to you wankers , now that's only address to the wankers and you know who you are. So please don't take offense if you are a non wanker.

Enjoy you godless poofs

Here is a fact that none of those big mouth wankers ever considered;
My barrels have a different harmonic because of;
1.) twist rate is faster at 1in10 instead of the older 1in12. This makes a huge difference and no one has mentioned the twist rate which goes to show that they don't comprehend what they read.
2.) The meloniting does several things such as stress relieves the barrel and stiffening it. I'm not sure what they are imagining stiffen means.
The harmonic is changed mostly by the twist rate and to a lesser extent by the meloniting.
3.) I've sold 7 of these and everyone is getting sub MOA once they learn to shoot the rifle.
4.) These rifles with melonited barrels shoot better than normal barrels and far better than the average military barrel.
I have been building rifles with melonited barrels for almost 7 years now. I have far more practical experience than these guys who know so little about meloniting that they have To go ask someone about it. Can you believe their blind arrogance is making them look like fools.

OLDMANPBK
September 02, 2017, 18:45
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86142&stc=1&d=1504395864

baker72
September 02, 2017, 18:57
:whiskey: :cheers:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86142&stc=1&d=1504395864

gunplumber
September 02, 2017, 20:26
Anthony Ask me to post this to you wankers ,
1.) twist rate is faster at 1in10 instead of the older 1in12. This makes a huge difference and no one has mentioned the twist rate which goes to show that they don't comprehend what they read.

bullshit. twist relates to sectional density, more commonly (because it often is the same) bullet weight.* Unless the bullets are in the 165-175g 1-10 doesn't mean shit.

2.) The meloniting does several things such as stress relieves the barrel and stiffening it. I'm not sure what they are imagining stiffen means.
The harmonic is changed mostly by the twist rate and to a lesser extent by the meloniting.

Bullshit. Harmonics is a function of profile, not twist. A shorter barrel of the same diameter vibrates (harmonics) faster, but over a shorter sine wave. Thus a shorter barrel will be more accurate than a longer barrel of the same diameter, within it's transonic envelope. Adding a harmonic dampener will mitigate the larger sine wave of a longer barrel, which is why my olympic grade air rifles all had "muzzle weights" and why some have speculated the StG "stoll" muzzle device contributes to accuracy (but I digress).

3.) I've sold 7 of these and everyone is getting sub MOA once they learn to shoot the rifle.

bullshit

4.) These rifles with melonited barrels shoot better than normal barrels and far better than the average military barrel.

1/2 bullshit. A commercial high grade barrel will shoot better than a military grade barrel most of the time. Meloniting is irrelevant.

I have been building rifles with melonited barrels for almost 7 years now. I have far more practical experience than these guys who know so little about meloniting that they have To go ask someone about it. Can you believe their blind arrogance is making them look like fools.

I've been building FAL type rifles FOR A F-CKING LIVING for 25 years now. Somewhere between 3500 and 4000, last count. And every once in a while, some jackass comes up with the newest claims to fame. And they are ALWAYS shot down by reality.

I have no doubt that a quality commercial barrel will shoot well. But you (Anthony) remain FULL OF SHIT and I have no hesitation staking my considerable, (infamous, if you choose) reputation on it.

Scoped, from a machine rest, your rifles will not shoot a consistent, sub-MOA anything. So go f-ck yourself, loser.

(Wait, was that impolite?)

*The Greenhill formula (T = 150 * D^2 / L) didn't include velocity. It used a constant of 150 for "typical" rifle velocities. Some recommend replacing it with 180 for velocities above 2800 fps. But we're not, we're at 2750 from a 21" barrel, most of the time - with UK and Aussie ammo consistently chronographing less than US ammo. In 1962, Bowman added velocity to the formula. Higher velocities = greater spin. (T = 3.5 * V^0.5 * D^2 / L) Later, different constants were added to take into account different bullet densities (Specific Gravity), which I researched in depth during the 1-6 v 1-7, 5.45x39 AK74u debate. And concluded that it was bullet length more than sectional density (although they often correlated). And that agrees with the slight variations to the Greenhill formula, by Warren Page, Andy Barniskis & the Klaus Klein Regression Formulas. A bunch of mumbo jumbo resulting in the same conclusion - you are full of shit.

y18376
September 02, 2017, 22:13
[QUOTE=gunplumber;4472941]bullshit. twist relates to sectional density, more commonly (because it often is the same) bullet weight.* Unless the bullets are in the 165-175g 1-10 doesn't mean shit.

Twist rate relates to the pitch of the rifling. :]

J. Armstrong
September 03, 2017, 07:28
[QUOTE=gunplumber;4472941]bullshit. twist relates to sectional density, more commonly (because it often is the same) bullet weight.* Unless the bullets are in the 165-175g 1-10 doesn't mean shit.

Twist rate relates to the pitch of the rifling. :]

Which of course translates to the rotation rate of the bullet and hence the stability of the bullet which is a prime factor in accuracy. Hence, GP is functionally correct.

gunplumber
September 03, 2017, 09:24
(chuckle) I think y18376 was trying to be cute. Or maybe acute.

I've contemplated having some L1A1 barrels made and was considering a 6 groove 1-11 twist.

And I'd have them hard chromed.
But it will have to wait as I have another project I'm saving for right now.

Thorack
September 03, 2017, 09:35
GP,

You cant just drop that here and leave it. You wanna start a crowd funding campaign? For a quality Chromelined inch barrel I'm in.

Thorack

gunplumber
September 03, 2017, 14:05
I am intrigued with the ones from Utah. If they had quantity pricing, I might bite. But I'm trying to fund another project right now that I want finished by Christmas, and that means I really can't spend any money right now on long-term projects.

yellowhand
September 03, 2017, 14:18
I am intrigued with the ones from Utah. If they had quantity pricing, I might bite. But I'm trying to fund another project right now that I want finished by Christmas, and that means I really can't spend any money right now on long-term projects.

Count me in as well, like everyone else, got a couple bucks sitting in an account not doing shit.:D

baker72
September 03, 2017, 17:22
And a reply from Anthony

Further to my reply to you last night.
There is an assumption by most reading this thread that the Gun Plumber and some others actually know what they are talking about. This assumption couldn't be further from the truth. The GP user is a self described arrogant bastard and is actually contradicting himself in his posting.
1.) he states that twist rate doesn't effect the harmonic,
2.) he then goes on to say that weight and profile are what affect barrel harmonics.
A simple fact which by his own arrogance he has either ignored or is unaware of is that as you increase the twist rate you lighten the barrel due to the increase in length of the lands and grooves within the barrel.
Our barrels are made in the USA and have a faster 1 in 10 twist rate, this twist rate when combined with a M118LR chamber gives better long range accuracy than the Mil barrels commonly used. This chambering has been proven to shoot Ball ammunition accurately as well as the heavier long range loads.
I like the F1 flash hider that Lithgow developed for our L1A1 unfortunately on the service barrel it degraded accuracy.
See Skenerton.
On our USA Made barrel the subtle changes that we made to barrel structure by changing twist and surface hardness have produced a harmonic that when used with the F1 flash hider improved accuracy.
When GP states that the FAL is not capable of sub MOA this just goes to prove that he has never built or used a rifle outside of Mil spec and therefore reinforcing his poor opinion of its accuracy capabilities. Others making the same claim or agreeing with GP have only ever shot a mil spec FAL thus basing their opinions as GP does on their limited experience.
We decided to do a run of 12 fully modernized Aussie L1A1 rifles fully appreciating that we would not necessarily be understood or desired by the battle rifle crowd. The people who purchase our rifles want the best most accurate rifle that their money can buy rather than settling for a very ordinary mil spec rifle like the what GP claims to offer that can't shoot sub MOA.
As with all custom built highly accurate rifles our pricing reflects the amount of work it takes to produce. Unfortunately the abundance of cheap Century Sporters and their other FAL variants has led to a false impression as to the value of the L1A1 type rifle.
Since GP is in total and overwhelming disbelief about the accuracy of our L1A1 rifle he should allow any new purchaser of our fully modernized L1A1 rifle to take a shot at him from 600 yds, he can stand still or run but as some Marines like to say "He'll only die tired".

gunplumber
September 03, 2017, 18:26
And more bullshit from Anthony . ..

OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.

1.) he states that twist rate doesn't effect the harmonic,
2.) he then goes on to say that weight and profile are what affect barrel harmonics.
A simple fact which by his own arrogance he has either ignored or is unaware of is that as you increase the twist rate you lighten the barrel due to the increase in length of the lands and grooves within the barrel.

Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.

Our barrels are made in the USA and have a faster 1 in 10 twist rate, this twist rate when combined with a M118LR chamber gives better long range accuracy than the Mil barrels commonly used. This chambering has been proven to shoot Ball ammunition accurately as well as the heavier long range loads.

Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.

embatp
September 03, 2017, 20:14
I don't have a dog in this fight and the builder can charge what he wants but at the end of the day it's still a kit built parts gun....no matter how well it shoots...or doesn't....

J. Armstrong
September 03, 2017, 20:44
When one or preferably several of Anthony's rifles is/are demonstrated by a neutral third party or other credible witness to deliver consistent 5 shot 100 yard groups of 1" or less, from the magazine, I will gladly eat crow. Truth is, if such were demonstrated, he would probably get some sales here among members. Until then it is put up or shut up.

I must admit I find his "explanation" and further comments above to be without merit. Frankly, while one can change barrel harmonics any way one wishes, my amateur opinion based upon some experience and lots of observation, is that harmonics be damned, the FAL simply is near incapable of delivering consistent 1 moa due to the many compromises inherent in the design over and above the harmonic "issue". We all know good smithing can minimize these issues but I am skeptical that any amount of work or skill can deliv er what Anthony claims. I'd love to be proven wrong, but until then I second the "bullshit" verdict.

Invictus77
September 03, 2017, 20:55
due to the extra rigidity from the meloniting

Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs :?

J. Armstrong
September 03, 2017, 20:58
Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs :?

I'm thinking maybe it's time to melonite the ol' Johnson :D

And I don't mean the rifle !!!

Texgunner
September 03, 2017, 21:02
Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs :?

Is it available in a daily dose?

:)

nounnoun
September 03, 2017, 21:26
this whole "ignore the master tradesmen, only I know the secrets of the L1A1" thing is off-putting. I have my own feelings about decorum between brother tradesmen, though. Numbers speak louder than words, a simple demonstration could close the matter.

Honestly, I'm more interested if it'll run without worry on whatever cheap steel case or weird surplus ammunition it's fed than if it'll drive tacks a mile away when the moon and Venus are in the right alignment and the proper purification rituals are performed.

Being new to market, when I first saw this listing a month or so ago, I thought it a quick buy-in, paying a premium for a replica with a few perks rather than going through the unpaid labor of tracking down an original at a similar price point. I think that would have been a reasonable argument.

baker72
September 03, 2017, 21:31
GP we have had our differences I know, I'm posting these as I think its fair to give a bloke that's built me few great rifles a chance to defended himself since he is being attcked every few weeks.
So this is from me not Anthony
That said

I'm a machinist by trade I did a five year Apprenticeship in Australia and 5 years App here as a pipe fitter

Ive never done any gun work but I assume rifling is done by broaching And this removes mat'l in the bore giving the bore a twist rate and the lower the number the tighter the twist

All I can compare it to would be if I was matching a 3 start thread I'm removing mat'l at a tight rate while traving less distance thus removing more mat"l

If that is correct ?
So by cutting the twist into the bore you cut the groove removing mat'l and the lands are left behind

increasing the twist rate would mean a tighter twist hence more mat'l remove verse a longer twist and less mat'l ?
,
So by machining the bore with more twist my tool is moving down the bore less v speed over diameter than a higher twist rate where the tool would move faster down the bore removing less mat'l ?

I'm really curious,

I'm confused on the 4 grooves v 6 grooves also , it would seem that a 4 groove would have more mat'l left in the bore than a 6 groove ?

You say below that increase the twist rate leaves more lands and increase mat'l in the bore? but I don't see hoW , you then say each land is of set by the groove sort of contradicting the the increase in mass , I've never matching anything and increased the mass.


Cheers Will

OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.



Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.



Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.

Story
September 03, 2017, 21:39
blah blah blah,,,but do your rifels shoot like laizurz >?

https://media.makeameme.org/created/Prepare-the-Laser.jpg

801_Tactical
September 03, 2017, 22:26
I don't have a dog in this fight and the builder can charge what he wants but at the end of the day it's still a kit built parts gun....no matter how well it shoots...or doesn't....

That about sums it up.

RG Coburn
September 03, 2017, 22:43
"A 1 in 10 Twist Rate Barrel that's Chambered for M118LR Sniper Ammunition.

Runs NATO or Commercial Brass in all Bullet Grain weights.

Original Military barrels were 1 in 12 twist and chambered for M80 Ball neither of which was capable of accurate long range work."

Yeeeaaahhh...this sorta reminds me of old veterans who used to claim in Korea,the enemy rifles could shoot our ammo,but we couldn't shoot theirs...

..and what the hell is this???
"Forged Match Grade Vintage Entreprise Arms Buena Park Receiver"
Don't know about you boys...but I think it would be a better rifle with an Imbel receiver. Enterprise...nope.Not worth the gamble.

Jaxxas
September 03, 2017, 23:32
Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.


How does this work? An increase in twist rate is a faster twist rate, thus 1 in 12 increased to 1 in 10?

Seemingly for any given length barrel profile a 4 groove 1 in 10 twist rate would weigh less than a 4 groove 1 in 12 twist rate just because the grooves are longer, thus less weight? Does the ID change? The slower the twist the more the barrel weighs? A smooth bore would weigh even more? The faster the twist the more material in the grooves removed?

Educate me!

yellowhand
September 04, 2017, 01:43
A beat to shit AK or a tricked out FAL/SLR, suspect the AK will still be running long after the tricked out tight as a tick FAL/SLR is regulated to the parts bin.:facepalm:

There are rare cases where a sub minute rifle is required, but just how many head shots at 3 or 400 yds does one need to make, in record setting time, where a magazine fed semi auto rifle is required over a decent bolt gun with optics, all at 1/3 the cost of this rifle?

And anyone that claims a sub minute FAL/SLR, made on demand, made in numbers, please sending one to a someone for an independent review before making the claim, would solve a host of issues and questions.

I'm sure that there are a bunch of old boys down at Fort Benning that would love to get their hands on one to try out and suspect they would jump at the chance just for the asking.:D

raubvogel
September 04, 2017, 06:15
baker72, I do not know if you remember but years ago someone here mentioned they knew a guy who would take a FAL put a barrel wrapped with some coating until it made it look like a horse's dong, and then it would be doing submoa. A lot of people here asked the member (dong, member) singing the praises to show some groupings after he got his done (the joke keeps on giving).

When he did get his back, he showed some pictures of the finished product but refused to show the groupings. We are not talking about a neutral party here technically, but the bloke who sang the praises of this shop. He categorically refused, saying something on the lines of "if you want to post grouping, have yours built by the guy and then shoot it." And weeks/months later added that "BTW, he stopped offering these services, so too bad for those who did not send their FALs to him with a wad of money!"

That kind of talk does not go well, and this feels like a bit of a variation of the same theme. Hence the need for data.

I do not know which falfiles member Anthony lives close to, but it would make sense to meet with someone at a range and do the proper 100yr/100m grouping test. Ideally with a different set of ammo but probably a box of black hills 175 would be a great start; at least that is what I used in a Remington 700 (not mine) with 1:10 twist to bore myself all the way to 1Kyd (yes that rifle was that good and I felt I was there just to reload and move the trigger). Of course each rifle likes a specific ammo, but if that rifle can deliver sub moa on the entire box of whatever, I would think GP would start to respect your friend's claims. And if we then could get some of his customers to repeat the test, well, it is hard to argue with hard data.

Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?

RG Coburn
September 04, 2017, 06:20
The amount of total barrel mass between those two twist rates would be miniscule.
http://www.ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/specSheets/18004.html
hmmm....Ruger seems to think a 1/10 rate is fine.

Johnaski
September 04, 2017, 06:34
Why do not other numerous manufacturers who melonite or nitride their barrels make these same claims? You would think it would be a major selling point for increased sales and "prestige" for the companies.

baker72
September 04, 2017, 07:52
Yes that would be a good idea and I will suggest it to him
The real question is are people upset at his prices or his work. I don't see anyone here that actually had work done by him complaing. I'm curious at viciousness of these attacks and that every month we have a new one . . Could it be a running theme with a few members here ?

Barrel harmonic is beyond me. I've no idea what it means. Or melionite a barrel and how it will effect it. It seems to be more common now days some barrel come that way from the factory . Or you need to send the barrel to and expert to have it done. does the aveage punter on this site understand the process I doubt it , lots of shit kickers here chiming in but maybe one or two people really understand it . Simply posting that guys and ass or stupid or a rip is well figure it out .

But this comment here has me truly confused I cannot see how one adds mass with more twist or grooves!
Every machine procces is removing metal . Even grooving pipe for Vic coupling is deforming metal not adding it

In fact I need proof that this is so,

An increase in the mass ok please tell me how?

" GP Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove insteadr of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures."


baker72, I do not know if you remember but years ago someone here mentioned they knew a guy who would take a FAL put a barrel wrapped with some coating until it made it look like a horse's dong, and then it would be doing submoa. A lot of people here asked the member (dong, member) singing the praises to show some groupings after he got his done (the joke keeps on giving).

When he did get his back, he showed some pictures of the finished product but refused to show the groupings. We are not talking about a neutral party here technically, but the bloke who sang the praises of this shop. He categorically refused, saying something on the lines of "if you want to post grouping, have yours built by the guy and then shoot it." And weeks/months later added that "BTW, he stopped offering these services, so too bad for those who did not send their FALs to him with a wad of money!"

That kind of talk does not go well, and this feels like a bit of a variation of the same theme. Hence the need for data.

I do not know which falfiles member Anthony lives close to, but it would make sense to meet with someone at a range and do the proper 100yr/100m grouping test. Ideally with a different set of ammo but probably a box of black hills 175 would be a great start; at least that is what I used in a Remington 700 (not mine) with 1:10 twist to bore myself all the way to 1Kyd (yes that rifle was that good and I felt I was there just to reload and move the trigger). Of course each rifle likes a specific ammo, but if that rifle can deliver sub moa on the entire box of whatever, I would think GP would start to respect your friend's claims. And if we then could get some of his customers to repeat the test, well, it is hard to argue with hard data.

Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?

baker72
September 04, 2017, 09:18
The more I think about this statement the more I can't understand it

Just like cutting thread you have a pitch ( width ) a major and minor ID etc the lands should stay the same height no matter the rifling say 2 grove , 4 groove of 6 groove you still retaining the same major ID lands heights and minor ID depth of groove the helix angle would way different of course more like that of a reamer
I've cut square muilt start threads before in the case of the thread the nut will travel three times the distance on the shaft with one turn as it would with single start thread
Thus a bullet will spin more pre groove v distance travel down the barrel but I don't see how lands heights ( major Internal Diameter ) are reduced
if you reduce the land heights do u deepen the groove and if so where do you stop

But if that was the case and their id was reduced again this would mean less weight more mass (mat'l) is removed for the ID



OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.



Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.


Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.

hueyville
September 04, 2017, 11:10
GP covered the basics but the advertisement says that his rifles shoot better due to improved barrel harmonics from melonite process. Yes, a 1:10 twist barrel if made to reasonable quality will stabilize a heavier bullet more consistently than a 1:11. I can buy 1:10 twist barrels from DSA in heavy profile (have two) and one is in pile to go with next batch of parts for deep salt bath treatment. My 1:10 twist shoots heavier bullets decently but does not put milsurp ammo inside of 1 MOA. It will put some of my 168 grain SMK handloads inside 1 MOA but barely.

I have built or had built dozens of rifles with melonite. Have taken four identical 18" AR 15 barrels, sent two for deep salt bath treatment and two built as shipped. The melonite barrels had to be lapped to induce a little wear to smooth out rifling before shot as well as the non treated but do not shoot better now. all shoot basically the same. Harmonics are changed by altering rigidity, torque values at different areas, changes in crowning, etc. Melonite will increase the long term accuracy but not initial accuracy of a barrel. Make sure all your machining and threading is done before you send off for melonite, I like the stuff when need durability.

These rifles may shoot MOA if enough care in parts selection and fitting is done. A 1:10 twist barrel does have mathmatical potential for better stabilization of heavier and longer projectiles that tend to shoot better. That said, a good 1:11 twist barrel with good 150 grain load can shoot 1 MOA as well. Are these barrels being sold loose? Would like to examine and build myself.

Pick up a set of tuning forks, tap and listen. Change length, mass, shape, etc and will sound different. That's harmonics. Have had barrels fluted and shot better, some shot worse with a particular load. Suggest everyone interested in barrel harmonics go buy a good used Browning A-Bolt with their BOSS system. Fiddling with the muzzle device and different loads will really help wrap your mind around practical application of altering barrel harmonics. Anyone about to build two rifles with same barrel send one off for a salt bath and see if it comes back laser accurate. Am not bashing this guys product, just the statement that melonite makes a barrel more accurate. Like cryo-treatment, can be hit or miss.

Invictus77
September 04, 2017, 12:01
Harmonics of a barrel (or any other structure) is really about the "resonance" or the "natural frequency" of the structure.

This resonant frequency can only be changed by changing mass or stiffness. More is not necessarily better. The "change" in mass or stiffness (more or less will both move it) changes the resonant frequency to be higher or lower.

A resonant frequency must have an external excitation force and if the external excitation force frequency is near to the resonant frequency of the structure, then the structure will move (vibrate) in a significant fashion.

Barrel length, barrel thickness (OD vs. ID), barrel profile, and attachments such as muzzle devices will change the natural frequency because they change the mass and/or the stiffness.

Other factors that can change stiffness of a barrel are external factors such as a bi-pod, a bench rest, or simply "slinging up" tight.

Different bullet weights, different bullet speeds through the barrel due to powder loads, and different twist rates in rifling can all change the frequency of the excitation force acting on the barrel and may then become closer or further from the natural frequency of the barrel.

A coating on a barrel or a change in rifling does NOT make a significant change in the stiffness of the barrel or the mass. Either of those could potentially be beneficial to accuracy due to a change in the frequency of the excitation force of the bullet and are why some ammo works well in one rifle but does not do well in others.

Coatings or rifling changes will NOT make the barrel "stiffer" or notably change the harmonics of a barrel.

Vulcanator
September 04, 2017, 13:08
Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?

This is the part that intrigues me. I would love to see evidence of the sub MOA groups Croc claims. If the rifle can't deliver the goods, then Croc is engaging in false advertising for his product. As for the price, that's his call to make.

SteelGreyML
September 04, 2017, 13:16
This is the part that intrigues me. I would love to see evidence of the sub MOA groups Croc claims...

I second that. Video and target pictures should settle it easily.

the gman
September 04, 2017, 13:49
Yes that would be a good idea and I will suggest it to him
The real question is are people upset at his prices or his work. I don't see anyone here that actually had work done by him complaing. I'm curious at viciousness of these attacks and that every month we have a new one . . Could it be a running theme with a few members here ?

Barrel harmonic is beyond me. I've no idea what it means. Or melionite a barrel and how it will effect it. It seems to be more common now days some barrel come that way from the factory . Or you need to send the barrel to and expert to have it done. does the aveage punter on this site understand the process I doubt it , lots of shit kickers here chiming in but maybe one or two people really understand it . Simply posting that guys and ass or stupid or a rip is well figure it out .

But this comment here has me truly confused I cannot see how one adds mass with more twist or grooves!
Every machine procces is removing metal . Even grooving pipe for Vic coupling is deforming metal not adding it

In fact I need proof that this is so,

An increase in the mass ok please tell me how?

" GP Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove insteadr of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures."

I'm curious why someone who claims to have revolutionized the L1A1 into a tack driving, all singing, all dancing fcuking awesomely accurate rifle needs a sock puppet to repeat his bull shit for him. Is he unable to use the internet? Nope, his ads on GB prove his ability to use the internet to peddle his wares. Is he unable to articulate his position? Nope, even though he is a knuckle dragging Aussie, (sorry Andy :biggrin:) he appears able to read the comments on this thread and respond via his chosen mouthpiece (or perhaps his alter ego??) so that isn't the problem. So why pray tell, is the much vaunted Anthony unable to register here, identify himself and defend his products in person?

I'm attacking his bull shit claims which are so outrageous as to make me think he is either unhinged or consuming some illicit substances. :uhoh: He talks smack and admits (I think but its difficult to discern which comments belong to him or baker72) he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. :facepalm: Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?

What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel.

Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness to what the rifle can do in his hands. I can arrange access to the ZIA rifle and pistol range or can meet him at the Albuquerque City range and several other FAL Files members might be available too. If it will truly shoot 1MOA or less with his choice of ammo on a repeatable basis, I will gladly take photographs, post same and apologize.

If it doesn't? Well, I'll leave it up to the FAL Files crew to decide his fate... ;)

Ant W
September 04, 2017, 14:14
Meloniting of L1A1 barrels;
As you can read from previous posters meloniting is not well understood and their results have been varied. Meloniting is an art as there are a few variables that can be adjusted to change the overall result, these are time and temperature.
Our barrels are the Pat Jones L1A1 barrels 1/10 twist with a modified chamber cut for use with 175 gr ammunition. These Pat Jones L1A1 barrels were excellent barrels pre meloniting but after meloniting the combination of F1 Flash Hider and melonited barrel just kept producing excellent results with our L1A1ís. In the L1A1 platform we wanted the enhanced wear and corrosion resistance and ended up getting an improvement in accuracy with the F1 Flash Hider, The F1 Flash Hider which as mentioned by Skennerton did nothing for accuracy when first produced.
I think that some people also have an expectation of dramatic results and miss the subtle signs of improvement. When I say our barrels have a different barrel harmonic itís a subtle difference that is just enough to make the F1 Flash hider really work well on the barrel. Itís a combination of the twist rate and the meloniting. The barrel is more rigid but that is not noticeable to the touch and can only be measured. Having a 58 Rc to 60 Rc surface hardness thatís just a few thousandths deep changes the barrel in several subtle ways, At first you may not notice any difference since you are not actually correctly testing to find the enhanced characteristics.
Generally wear resistance can only be appreciated over the long term,
Corrosion resistance may not be noticeable to most people but there are test procedures as used by Crane NSW to determine corrosion resistance.
Stress relief of the barrel and the added benefit to accuracy can only be realized fully by proper testing with uniform ammunition. Comparing two identical barrels one being melonited and one not would seem a good place to start but then the variables of weapon platform come into play and last but not least the shooters skill is of the utmost importance when looking for positive results.
If your shooting skill is not up to Sub MOA then donít expect the gun to do anything better with your capabilities. You cannot expect mil surp ammo to produce Sub MOA shots, some will but most of it wonít. You must use something good like like Hornady TAP, Lapua etc. We all have our favorite ammo and as mentioned in other postings some rifles seem to like a particular brand of ammo.
It also should be mentioned that Meloniting brings different improvements to different rifles since some enhancements show up more on gas guns than say bolt rifles. When you divide gas guns into their groups letís say AR styles and then M14ís and L1A1ís they all benefit in some similar and some differing ways from meloniting.
Smith Enterprises of Tempe AZ have been meloniting their M14 Crazy Horse Barrels for well over 10 years now with considerable positive results. They produce one of the finest modernized M14 builds available. In the M14 platform Smith Ent uses it to stop barrel stretch and provide enhanced wear and corrosion resistance. Stress relief was found to be an added bonus of the process.

In an AR platform meloniting is used mainly as an alternative to chrome lining.
If there is anyone who wants a melonited barrel we can provide those, they are expensive as there is a lot of work that has to be done to each barrel. For instance the gas block has to be fitted first and then removed prior to meloniting, a lot of extra work but we have found it worthwhile.
Palmetto State Armory, Franklin Armory and Criterion Barrels are all selling melonited barrels for the AR platform.

308/223shooter
September 04, 2017, 14:47
How many of Pat's barrels do you have, and what is the price for one?

Ant W
September 04, 2017, 15:05
Hi, we have a few they are all melonited.
Should have some more shortly.
Best to call the shop when you have time.

RG Coburn
September 04, 2017, 15:35
So,is ANT W the guy selling that rifle?
"Our barrels are the Pat Jones L1A1 barrels 1/10 twist with a modified chamber cut for use with 175 gr ammunition."

Might be mistaken,but I thought the barrels was listed as a 1-12?
I really doubt meloniting is an "art form". Its a process....a repeatable process. What one man can do,another can do.

Ah.I see..the originals were 1-12...

baker72
September 04, 2017, 15:40
I do believe I posted that "this is from Anthony " in those post ,pretty simple mate

you really need to have beer ,like I said I posted his response to u lot why cause I'm tried of seeing this every month or so its like you lot are on a cycle

posting this is from" Anthony" reading is tough for pommys I know

I'm in ca if you want to meet me we can arrange it .

lol if u think I'm Anthony hahahaha you really are a silly I love this, to funny yes yes you have it I've been hiding here all this time just waiting to pop up.

Why don't you just call him and set up your date. I mean you were going to drive to his shop before why don't just do that ?

cough pommy cough poor inbreed bastards with the best teeths :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Will







I'm curious why someone who claims to have revolutionized the L1A1 into a tack driving, all singing, all dancing fcuking awesomely accurate rifle needs a sock puppet to repeat his bull shit for him. Is he unable to use the internet? Nope, his ads on GB prove his ability to use the internet to peddle his wares. Is he unable to articulate his position? Nope, even though he is a knuckle dragging Aussie, (sorry Andy :biggrin:) he appears able to read the comments on this thread and respond via his chosen mouthpiece (or perhaps his alter ego??) so that isn't the problem. So why pray tell, is the much vaunted Anthony unable to register here, identify himself and defend his products in person?

I'm attacking his bull shit claims which are so outrageous as to make me think he is either unhinged or consuming some illicit substances. :uhoh: He talks smack and admits (I think but its difficult to discern which comments belong to him or baker72) he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. :facepalm: Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?



Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness to what the rifle can do in his hands. I can arrange access to the ZIA rifle and pistol range or can meet him at the Albuquerque City range and several other FAL Files members might be available too. If it will truly shoot 1MOA or less with his choice of ammo on a repeatable basis, I will gladly take photographs, post same and apologize.

If it doesn't? Well, I'll leave it up to the FAL Files crew to decide his fate... ;)

1911Ron
September 04, 2017, 16:18
Meloniting is a coating that reduces friction and is easier to clean plus protecting the metal nothing more nothing less, to claim that it "stiffens" it is bullsh*t

msnyder
September 04, 2017, 16:39
Pat claimed his barrels were sub moa capable. Best I could get out mine was around 2-2.5" with milsurp. Never tried match ammo.

Ant W
September 04, 2017, 17:51
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.

msnyder
September 04, 2017, 19:59
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.

I set my headspace to around 1.630. I was happy with the results I got initially which were on par with other inch barrels so I never tried any match ammo. What ammunition are you using to get sub moa?

raubvogel
September 04, 2017, 21:27
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.

Croc, that is the crux of the problem and source of frustration here: we do not have access to the data -- groupings -- you have. So, you are asking people to have faith, and I am not that good with that myself; data points I can handle.

At this point in time I will leave the technical discussions to the boffins and other experts. For all I care your rifles might distort the time-space continuum and call upon their fairy godmother. All I want is the equivalent of an unbiased logbook data session. the gman offered to participate in the event. I can't go but would gladly buy a box of the ammo of your choice.

RG Coburn
September 04, 2017, 22:03
I'm not sure anybody is complaining...they just want to see where the rubber meets the road...
The Enterprise receiver would be the deal-killer for me. Some supposedly run.
I wouldn't build on one. Are they still in business?Oh wait...I heard some arrogant guy in Arizona territory bought all their stuff....

aussiedave
September 04, 2017, 22:15
this guy is claiming because he lived in the same town as the gun factory he is an expert, well shit,I lived in vegas, I don't know shite about gambling. he claims to have used L1A1s since he was a kid? in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims...

Crocs Gunshop specializes in the Aussie L1A1 & L2A1 Rifles.
Why, because Croc is an Aussie and has been using the Aussie SLR (L1A1) since he was a kid.
Have your Aussie rifle correctly assembled and tested by an Aussie.
Years of experience with the Aussie SLR make our knowledge of the weapon better than most.
Not only can we breach your barrel properly, we know how to time and install your flash hider so that it stays put. None of this Loctite nonsense that other gunsmiths or home jobs do.
Croc uses the Lithgow specs to assemble your rifle.
Having lived in Lithgow NSW for a time, the L1A1 is not the only rifle that Croc can work on for you.
Do you have a No1 Mk3 Lithgow, we can fix it for you, no problems. Out of headspace, need a new buttstock. Crocs has many parts for these fine old rifles.
As much as it goes against the grain for an Aussie, Croc can repair your British gear as well, Enfield, BSA, you name it we can fix it.
Call anytime to discuss your problem with your rifle.
1-505-757-3461, Ask for Croc.
Crocs is offering to Barrel and headspace your L1A1 rifle for $150.00.
Locking shoulders and breeching washers are not included in this price.
Locking shoulders are $25 each.
Breeching washers are $25 each.
Flash Hider washers are $15 each plus installation.

the gman
September 04, 2017, 23:53
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.

So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are... :wink:

Andy the Aussie
September 05, 2017, 00:46
this guy is claiming because he lived in the same town as the gun factory he is an expert, well shit,I lived in vegas, I don't know shite about gambling. he claims to have used L1A1s since he was a kid? in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims... ....... don't forget Dave that till 96 if you were a member of the rifle association and a service rifle shooter you had exemption from the state law courtesy of the Defence Act. The list of approved rifles was LONG and distinguised but specifically included SLRs, FALs, M14s, AR15s and even Valmets. I had and shot all of them on the line here in Sydney till 96. A mate got a visit from Police over his AR15 and it was seized but returned within 48hrs once the little known exemption was explored.

Johnaski
September 05, 2017, 05:24
If someone wanted a sub-moa rifle iin 308 wouldn't it be cheaper to get a tricked out AR10 than this kit built fal rifle?

ActionYobbo
September 05, 2017, 06:44
in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims...
.

that is not true. in NSW you could buy a gun directly from the lithgow factory as long as you were in a rifle club that was formed under the defense act and affiliated with the NSWRA. I did and had several SLR's as well as AR15's and AAA's and an AR10. All you had to do to own what you want was to join the club and shoot and attend a meeting 1x a year. Most country rifle clubs were formed under the defense act.
So calling bullshit based on the fact that you dont know the facts makes your claim of bullshit bullshit.

d762nato
September 05, 2017, 08:17
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.

So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are... :wink:
Well here's your chance Ant to prove how well your builds shoot. I'd just meet up and do some shooting, heck if your builds shoot that good you'd probably have a few folks lined up to purchase one.

801_Tactical
September 05, 2017, 09:43
Well here's your chance Ant to prove how well your builds shoot. I'd just meet up and do some shooting, heck if your builds shoot that good you'd probably have a few folks lined up to purchase one.

You know that a lot of building a rifle is art, but the vast majority is science. None of it is Voodoo. I'm not seeing the science behind the build.

I think the statements in the ad about no one else understanding how this all works, so don't ask other builders about this - vast paraphrasing here - kind of pissed everyone off.

It would be great if the builder would get with one of the forum members and have a live shoot with the conditions being documented. The offer is out there, let's see where this all goes.

If it shoots like claimed I'd likely buy one.

hueyville
September 05, 2017, 09:52
(Trim)
he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. :facepalm: Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?

(From Shilen website would assume)
What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel.

Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness...

My money is on G-man and suggest that this challenge is done with three examples. I have two rifles that on the right day with the right ammo will dance in the 1 MOA range. The hardest part was fitting an LTR dust cover snug enough to hold an optic stable for my aging eyes. With irons I will usually drop at least one shot out of five. One rifle is a DSA SPR with their set trigger I bashed until GP said it had redeeming qualities and one appeared on LGS shelf. It will only shoot true 1 MOA about one out of three tries using a handload tweaked down to a full week of trying different seating depths till found proper bullet ogive to rifling offset, not considering testing bullets and powders with a lot of ladder tests till got powder/projectile selection and then was a lot of tweaking how much shoulder setback and OAL. Other rifle is an L1a1 purchased from very nice gentleman here who said due to age was selling off his premium collection. Same as DSA rifle had to try several LTR equipped dust covers for best fit to hold glass in place and using military match ammunition it will drop a 1 MOA group out of every three tries and I really don't like taking it out of vault often for fear of messing up nicest finish have ever had on any personal FAL type rifle. Here is the real trick, only way I can do this is single loading each round from the top, if shoot from magazine between bullet tip distortion and bolt tilt being more random they both open up.

[B]Bring three rifles with commonly available ammunition or handload recipe willing to publish and if the three shoot 1 MOA I will buy one of them. Prove you can consistently build 1 MOA FAL's and might send a couple kits haven't assembled yet.

G-man,
Your quote from Shilen is partially true but my guess is mostly corporate covering their @$$ as hard to be sure quality of work done by myriad of smiths and machinists across the country. Have several barrels that started as Shilen blanks with final profiling done by well known and respected barrel supplier that have been fluted and shoot sub MOA and a few down in the 1/2 MOA consistent and sub half MOA on good days or when some of my competitive bench rest friends sit behind them. Like cryofreezing, have sent barrels off for a dip in the fridge and most shoot more consistently but not necessarily more accurately until other changes are made. I like melonite because a barrel will give me roughly 50% or more service life. If there is any burr or inconsistency in bore then have to lap a melonite barrel as just a few standard rounds down bore will not smooth a hardened flaw.

That said my custom throat burning 7mm Practicals, 22-250 Ackley Improved and similar turn bolts are built on unmolested barrels that have some proprietary aftermarket finish. Will get my 700 to 1,000 rounds, lap throat for another few hundred then send for replacement. Last thing wanted to do with my almost $600 Noveske 18" Swtchblock SPR AR barrel was send it off for freezing or boiling. No way will risk a $600 barrel with a process not controlled and warrantied by company that sold it to me. If well reputed vendor sells me a fluted Shilen barrel guaranteed to shoot sub MOA flutes influence is on them and yet to be let down.

So I hope this crocodile character shows up and proves he can sit three FAL's on bench, (Do not care if he has to get David Tubbs to run them) and all shoot 1 MOA from magazine as will buy two more than likely. Need an inch and metric tack driver for the range unless he doesnt understand metric system or SAE, always get confused as to which kind of math they use Down Under and my adopted son lives there... I really hope this reptile that resembles an American alligator claims are 100% true and has found a way to supply consistent 1 MOA FAL's. Of course if buy one, it doesn't shoot MOA and he says "you just have to learn how to shoot it" as his advertisement says will likely loose my mind because if it doesn't shoot MOA for me will put a 1,000 yard bench rest record holder and at least on Army trained Scout Sniper behind it before blame the rifle. Learned that sometimes have to bring in a "ringer" and don't want this test flawed by one rifle that's a "ringer".

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 09:52
Reply to Aussie Dave,
I grew up in the time before the gun ban.
I'm 60 now so do the math. I'm talking of a time when we still had gun stores and semi autos were normal.
You may not remember it as your recollection of OZ is a post ban one but we had a program at schools called cadets. Our school had an armory as most schools did back then. We had a couple of racks of .303's about 4-5 SLR's and a couple of Brens in transit cases. All of them worked they weren't demilled. Some of our .303 rifles were DP marked.
There are not that many people left living up in Lithgow who worked at the factory to talk with anymore but you can learn a lot talking to Aussies that were involved in it.

Bug Tussell
September 05, 2017, 10:08
So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are... :wink:

I'm curious to see a sub-moa FAL in action also. We have a shooting range in Los Lunas as well. I'm fairly flexible on dates and times as well.

I will donate for ammo costs if that is an issue.

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 10:27
Well alrighty! It seems that all our ducks are in a row now, with more than one offer for a demonstration. Let the shooting begin! :smile:

jhend170
September 05, 2017, 10:38
Now Mark, I have to tell you, my melonited/QPQ's/SBN'd (whatever the %#@ you wish to refer to it as, QPQ'd in my case) rifle and barrel absolutely shoot about .6moa. I had the rifle built, and all parts other than the springs QPQ'd. It is far and away the most accurate rifle I own, and the nitriding made even the factory trigger butter smooth, and the barrel is stupid-easy to clean. After near a 1000 rounds the chamber looks almost factory new. SBN is a fantastic thing to do to steels, be it carbon or stainless.

This might be the time to mention that it's a Remmy 700 that had the barrel broken in BEFORE nitriding, was a custom build, in a free-floated and pillar bedded stock, and it's a .270WSM. If SHTF this is what I hold them off at 1000+ yds with.

Applying any of that to a FAL however, other than the cleaning and barrel/chamber wear, is a load of horse$#!+ of the highest order, and GB should have a place where actual experts in harmonics or metallurgy or particular platfoms (yeah, I said it, GTFO yourselves) can chime in. Ultimately it is "caveat emptor," but it would be best if the buyer had a single place to find all claims verifiable.

Edit: And am I the one seeing the "barrel sleeve" all over again???

Trypcil
September 05, 2017, 11:01
The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 11:41
Entreprise Arms Receivers.
This is a reply to the comment about the Entreprise receiver being a deal killer.
I bought my first Entreprise Arms Inc. Buena Park receivers back when Clinton was President. As a matter of a fact I still the original receipt for one of them. On that receipt it specifically states "Forged Match Grade". Any one who wants a redacted pdf copy of the invoice can ask me via email at crocodile@newmexico.com for a copy.
Entreprise Arms was started by two brothers Walter & Howard. In the 80's they were making these receivers as stated "Forged Match Grade". I have found them to be the best and most faithful reproduction of an Aussie Cut receiver. They have always headspaced within the locking shoulder range and barrels have timed using std washers. I have had many receivers with tight carrier raceways and a few tail hooks that needed to be fitted. You have to install your ejector blocks so its a good time to do nice job on the pins so that they don't show. All of these receivers have "SPORTER" on the left side. Their address can be either Buena Park, CA. or Irwindale, CA., if they say SPORTER then they are the good ones. In recent years Entreprise made L1A1 receivers again all marked Irwindale, CA. I have not been happy with these later productions, so I stick to the SPORTERS as they produce less problems and work fine as well as look good. The only real damage to the SPORTERS that we see today is enlarged locking shoulder holes that won't take any series of locking shoulder tight enough. If you have one of these don't worry send to us and we'll fix it for you.
I have built on ARMSCORP, EDEN, ONYX, DSA, COONAN, IMBEL, CENTURY and others I can't remember.
DSA is really good the only issue I ever had was the tight headspace issue that needed special ground locking shoulders. COONAN went together without a hitch, IMBEL is great, CENTURY varies by where its made and have more than their fair share of problems.
Of these only ARMSCORP, EDEN, ONYX Entreprise and IMBEL are forged, the rest are investment cast except for the a few CENTURY receivers that are clearly marked made by IMBEL. There are a few POYERS and some ENFIELD/BSA receivers out there which are forged as well but you don't see them as receivers very often as they are usually seen as complete weapons.
Then there is Lithgow's Military receiver.
I have been writing to the BATFE for years and have many letter rulings and explanations from in regards the FAL/L1A1 rifles.
It should be noted at this time that there are very limited numbers of Aussie Sear Cut receivers here in country. These are all from foreign military sales of surplus weapons, that's why they are military receivers. I think the importation paperwork was for a semi auto only which as they were in most cases produced that way from the factory. These would all have be imported prior to the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. The 1968 Gun Control Act changed the status of the SEMI AUTO LITHGOW PRODUCED MILITARY RIFLE and all other sear cut receivers to a Machinegun since the sear cut version is so readily converted to a machinegun. None have been legally imported since the 1968 Act. under their new classification, there are only 1,848 FAL type sear cut receivers legally allowed in the country as non registerable Semi Auto rifles. These were all produced by Browning.
With the status change brought about by the 1968 GCA a sear cut receiver rifle that was built as a semi auto now had to be registered as a machinegun with the NFA Branch. Only the 1,848 Browning's were exempt. As is so common today most everyone hasn't got a clue about what the law says any more and after 1968 all that most people understood was that you had to register a machinegun not a semi auto rifle. The status change went unnoticed by most people. LEO only sales account for most of these sear cut rifles as that was allowable at the time but once the LEO decided to sell their personal firearm it usually became a civilian possession. The BATFE's position is that these are unregistered machine guns. Although there is some case law where a guy got let off but his had an altered sear welded into place making it far more difficult to "READILY"convert. Here is their final word on the subject.
"Any FAL-type firearm incorporating the frame or receiver of a machinegun having been neither exempted nor legally registered before (1986 Act) F.O.P.A enactment, is contraband and, as such may not be legally possessed or transferred.
With the court case deciding in favor of the Defendant any L1A1 with a sear cut could fall outside of the BATFE reach only if the difficulty of making it a machinegun was obvious (say the inclusion of a semi auto ejector block with welded cross pins or blind pinned cross pins or a welded insert) These grey area guns are now bringing a premium today regardless of condition but excellent examples will be selling north of $8 or $9K.
That makes these the most highly prized possessions due to their origin and rarity.

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 11:52
Thanks TRYPCIL,
That's been our experience and you can read by so many of the negative posters that they have never even owned a melonited barrel much less shot one. Your experience with the drills shows us why I call meloniting an Art form. There are good and bad heat treaters and with barrels its critical that the heat treatment be done properly. There is a lot of fine tuning that gets done by those who use it therefore I call it an Art. You don't just look it up in a book all the time temp variables. And Yes, its that hardened layer that adds stiffness to the barrel. One of your barrels was either undercooked or the other was over cooked to produce your drilling results. Thanks for commenting its a breath of sanity amongst lot of foolish and name calling posters.
Regards Croc.

The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?

msnyder
September 05, 2017, 11:54
I like the idea of meloniting Pat's barrels so I'm sending one of mine out for the process. Not trying to get sub-moa, just want to extend the life of a good barrel.

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 12:36
For all of you Forum Junkies who have said that they will buy one of my rifles if it shoots sub MOA then here's my offer too you.
I have five left out of twelve rifles. two are for me as they have consecutive serial numbers that leaves three for sale. Everyone who has bought one so far has no complaints about accuracy. Buy yours and get something in the game instead of just talk. I have put a lot of time and money into making these the very best and our customer service is second to none.
Its really far too easy to get on the forum and hide behind a computer screen in the safety of the basement and call my rifles shit and me a liar. I know that a good few on this forum who have been having a bash cause they can are just bullshit merchants who don't deserve the time of day. So to "name callers" like GMAN and rude "arrogant bastards" like Gun Plumber my rifles are only available to them for purchase for $5000 each no warranty included. That's an upcharge of a $1000 plus for the Asshole factor that you two bring to the table. I will though as gracious act of compassion offer only either of them "FREE SHIPPING". To other more reasonable people the price is $3895 plus shipping. Buy the rifle and go out and shoot it, it will take several hundred rounds to break in which you can do with Ball ammo if you wish.
At that point once the rifle has settled in to itself and your ready to start using some 175 gr M118LR I suspect that GMAN and possibly even the Gun Plumber will both come forward and back up their hatred for meloniting and everything else I have done to make a great rifle by offering themselves up as 600 to 1000 yd targets for you the new rifle owner.
When GMAN and his often quoted sucking chest wound become one and the same he will if he is lucky that day hear a little voice repeatedly saying SUB MOA. **** me it was true !

jhend170
September 05, 2017, 12:43
The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?

So my 700 I describe above... you'll notice that I said I had ALL the parts nitrided. I was able to do this because I was doing some environmental work for a company that does the QPQ SBN process mainly for the oil and gas industry. For the price of 2 cases of Coor's light my contact there, the guy that ran the operation, got all that done for me.

In the process of working with them I needed to understand exactly what the physics and chemistry were. Essentially cyanide-based salts are heated to the melting point, and the steel object, whatever it may be, is quenched in the molten salts. The salts melting point is below the Curie point of both carbon and stainless steels, and therefore does not affect the heat treatment. It does, however, expand the molecules so that nitrogen and carbon can fit into the "gaps" created while hot. When allowed to cool the N and C are held in place, and create the new hardened surface. The treatment goes up to 5 or 6 thousandths of an inch in penetration of the steel. The QPQ process is "Quench, polish, quench," so the surface is smoothed, and treated a second time, thus adding to the Rockwell hardness (65-70 if memory serves). Being a steel treatment, and not a coating, it can't flake off. It approaches hard chrome, but because the thickness doesn't have to be accounted for it helps maintain whatever accuracy the barrel had before treatment.

However, a few thousandths of hardening might have the SLIGHTEST stiffening effect, it certainly can't make up for the difference between barrel contours; it won't make a medium profile act like a heavy. It is a SURFACE hardening only, that is less likely to rust, less prone to wear and flame erosion, and easier to clean, but it is NOT thick enough to matter to barrel stiffness or harmonics.

So for some first-hand experience... that 700 of mine shot EXACTLY the same from an accuracy standpoint before and after treatment, but the POI was lower by not quite a half inch. Yes, lower indicates a slightly slower projo, and this is correct. The slickness of the nitrided surface actually slightly REDUCES velocities because the bullet get's through the barrel easier, thus in shorter time, and doesn't allow the projo to max out on velocity. The fix for this is adding an inch or 2 to barrel length.

So again, it can't make a barrel more accurate, just maintain accuracy longer (round count) than an untreated CM, CMV, or stainless barrel would.

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 13:14
For all of you Forum Junkies who have said that they will buy one of my rifles if it shoots sub MOA then here's my offer too you.
I have five left out of twelve rifles. two are for me as they have consecutive serial numbers that leaves three for sale. Everyone who has bought one so far has no complaints about accuracy. Buy yours and get something in the game instead of just talk. I have put a lot of time and money into making these the very best and our customer service is second to none.
Its really far too easy to get on the forum and hide behind a computer screen in the safety of the basement and call my rifles shit and me a liar. I know that a good few on this forum who have been having a bash cause they can are just bullshit merchants who don't deserve the time of day. So to "name callers" like GMAN and rude "arrogant bastards" like Gun Plumber my rifles are only available to them for purchase for $5000 each no warranty included. That's an upcharge of a $1000 plus for the Asshole factor that you two bring to the table. I will though as gracious act of compassion offer only either of them "FREE SHIPPING". To other more reasonable people the price is $3895 plus shipping. Buy the rifle and go out and shoot it, it will take several hundred rounds to break in which you can do with Ball ammo if you wish.
At that point once the rifle has settled in to itself and your ready to start using some 175 gr M118LR I suspect that GMAN and possibly even the Gun Plumber will both come forward and back up their hatred for meloniting and everything else I have done to make a great rifle by offering themselves up as 600 to 1000 yd targets for you the new rifle owner.
When GMAN and his often quoted sucking chest wound become one and the same he will if he is lucky that day hear a little voice repeatedly saying SUB MOA. **** me it was true !


"""I suspect that GMAN and possibly even the Gun Plumber will both come forward and back up their hatred for meloniting and everything else I have done to make a great rifle by offering themselves up as 600 to 1000 yd targets for you the new rifle owner.
When GMAN and his often quoted sucking chest wound become one and the same he will if he is lucky that day hear a little voice repeatedly saying SUB MOA. **** me it was true !"""

If ya feel this confident in your rifle, :facepalm: how about you locate a second person, I'll second either Gman or Gunplumber, :D we all four step off 600 to 1000 yards and then do battle, you and yours with your rifles, and I'll carry one of Gunplumber's built SLR's seconding either of them.

Now, if ya ain't got the balls to do this, then just STFU about using GMAN and Gunplumber, as targets for your rifles, as if this means shit!

A PSA AR parts rifle will kill a fellow at either 600 or 1000 yards all day long, so your boast means shit, looks childish and does nothing to support your claim of a superior built rifle ass hole.

Strap your super rifle down into a machine mount, fire off half a dozen sub minute groups, post your proof, then go sell a thousand of them.

Trypcil
September 05, 2017, 13:24
So Rem., barrels are hammer forged??? - many other melonited barrels are not. Whether it has a greater effect on non HF barrels I don't know. Either way even the source of barrel material, let alone batch may also affect the meloniting efficacy - let alone the time, temp, any lapping and who knows what else could also effect a barrels performance - personally I think there is much still to learn from the application, and the metals used, amongst other things, headspace tightness etc... tho' the claims laid out by Croc do seem bold, maybe a shoot off is in order, he might be onto something, or not.

mribley
September 05, 2017, 14:05
Quit the metallurgy and just show us the targets!

Groups or patterns !!!!

Trypcil
September 05, 2017, 14:06
Every slanderous interaction, is a learning opportunity!

the gman
September 05, 2017, 14:23
Thanks TRYPCIL,
That's been our experience and you can read by so many of the negative posters that they have never even owned a melonited barrel much less shot one. Your experience with the drills shows us why I call meloniting an Art form. There are good and bad heat treaters and with barrels its critical that the heat treatment be done properly. There is a lot of fine tuning that gets done by those who use it therefore I call it an Art. You don't just look it up in a book all the time temp variables. And Yes, its that hardened layer that adds stiffness to the barrel. One of your barrels was either undercooked or the other was over cooked to produce your drilling results. Thanks for commenting its a breath of sanity amongst lot of foolish and name calling posters.
Regards Croc.

Problem is, he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about either. :uhoh::uhoh: I've been testing QPQ components for over 10 years and if the bore is exposed to the product,(which is usually the whole point of the treatment) then it too becomes just as hard as the exterior.

Offer still stands bub: put up or shut up. If I was in your position, I'd be foaming at the mouth to show my rifles off and how good they shoot. Your refusal to address the situation leaves only one conclusion: you're full of it.

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 14:48
I'll restate what we found since things got pretty distorted by the people in the beginning of the thread.

The 1/12 twist standard L1A1 rifle barrel when coupled with an F1 Flash Hider was not as accurate as the same barrel with a Std five slot Flash Hider as issued on most Aussie L1A1's.
We used the Pat Jones 1/10 twist L1A1 rifle barrel, recut the chamber for M118LR and melonited it to a 60Rc skin. We coupled the barrel with an F1 Flash Hider and the rifle produced sub MOA. The F1 changes the length of the barrel by about 2" that alone changes the harmonic but instead of changing it for the worse (as on a std barrel) it changed it for the better. What changed? The twist rate of course, chamber cut and the meloniting. As I have said before the changes are subtle and more akin to a tuning. I think some people are expecting something dramatic by they way they write, but in general a few less hysterical people seems to agree that any changes would be minimal which of course I agree with. The barrel with a 1/10 twist has a slightly less weight than a 1/12 twist, the meloniting makes the barrel exterior (this includes the bore & chamber) harder now at about 60Rc instead of about 30-34Rc, the M118LR chamber has a longer throat than M80 Ball Chamber. We did each of these things since its all been well proven on the Smith Ent. M14 rifles that we have been selling for years now.

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 15:06
When and where is the shoot-off? It should be a great boost for sales. :smile:

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 15:07
You know what GMAN I think that you have a reading disability, you don't comprehend what you read and therefore you end up commenting on things that don't exist.
No one mentioned that the bore is not melonited only you came up with that one all by yourself. Before the internet your type was found outside the general store, wearing bib overalls, bullshitting a couple drunks who weren't sober yet. I'd be afraid to put a loaded gun in your hands since you might hurt yourself or someone else. You have no control over your mouth and, your a name caller, you don't even know me and you are publicly stating that I smoke crack from Espanola. Some might find you funny or entertaining but to me you are a Libelous. I wouldn't give you the time of day and especially not one of my rifles.

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 15:10
Heck yeah TEXGUNNER.
Whenever GMAN or GUN PLUMBER for that matter are ready to stand up for their words at 600yds, you can be my first guest to take aim.

gunplumber
September 05, 2017, 15:16
Heck yeah TEXGUNNER.
Whenever GMAN or GUN PLUMBER for that matter are ready to stand up for their words at 600yds, you can be my first guest to take aim.

I think you just won "retard of the internet" today.

My PKM shoots 4-6 MOA with 40 year old Polish light ball surplus ammo. Barrel is not melonited. Built by drunken Hungarians. Care to stand down-range to "prove" your bullshit? Or do you think 24-36" at 600 yards might be lethal?

gunplumber
September 05, 2017, 15:17
We used the Pat Jones 1/10 twist L1A1 rifle barrel, recut the chamber for M118LR and melonited it to a 60Rc skin.

Since the neck on a GI-spec chamber is larger than on a M118LR chamber, how did you "recut it" to a smaller size?

RG Coburn
September 05, 2017, 15:24
How do they plug off the bore and chamber? Meloniting utilizes heat in the 1000-1100 degree range,if my study of the process is correct. That would create some considerable pressure were the barrel ends to be plugged somehow.Maybe plug only one end,and treat the barrel up to an inch or two of the not-plugged end?Then reverse?
Do they melonite knife blades?

jhend170
September 05, 2017, 15:41
How do they plug off the bore and chamber? Meloniting utilizes heat in the 1000-1100 degree range,if my study of the process is correct. That would create some considerable pressure were the barrel ends to be plugged somehow.Maybe plug only one end,and treat the barrel up to an inch or two of the not-plugged end?Then reverse?
Do they melonite knife blades?

Can't plug a barrel for nitriding, the entire barrel is treated inside and out.

As for knife blades hard also means brittle, a quality not desired in the edge itself. They do melonite blades, but more for the ease of cleaning and as a cheaper method of reducing risk of rusting non-stainless steels on the "body" of the blades, rather than the edge that is finalized after.

jhend170
September 05, 2017, 15:42
Since the neck on a GI-spec chamber is larger than on a M118LR chamber, how did you "recut it" to a smaller size?

Like my grandpa used to say... "I've cut this board 3 times and it's STILL too short!"

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 15:44
RG, you don't plug off the chamber or the muzzle end. You want the liquid salt nitride to flow through the bore to give an even treatment to all of the exterior surfaces of the barrel.
Treating the chamber and bore is what gives you the enhanced wear and corrosion resistance characteristics. On the M14 rifle which has always suffered from barrel stretch the heat treatment arrested that as well.

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 15:47
This is just for the Gun Plumber.

Same way as you added rifling to the bore.

By the way Smith Enterprise in Tempe Arizona that's real close to you, are still waiting for you to come and beat them up as you promised you would.

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 15:48
Heck yeah TEXGUNNER.
Whenever GMAN or GUN PLUMBER for that matter are ready to stand up for their words at 600yds, you can be my first guest to take aim.

I'm pretty sure, you screwed this up as well, mate!

I read it, as waiting for you to take up your rifle against GMAN or Gunplumber and see who's still standing at the end of the day as being a great marketing tool for your so called superior rifles.

Might be wrong, Tex speaks for himself.

But we're still back too, you've made these brandy ass claims and can;t back them up, been called out, and now are just pissing and moaning like an old woman with new batteries in her vibrator!

Either prove your claims or stop making them.

hueyville
September 05, 2017, 15:50
(Trim)
This might be the time to mentioned that it's a Remmy 700 that had the barrel broken in BEFORE nitriding, was a custom build, in a free-floated and pillar bedded stock, and it's a .270WSM. If SHTF this is what I hold them off at 1000+ yds with.

Applying any of that to a FAL however, other than the cleaning and barrel/chamber wear, is a load of horse$#!+ of the highest order, and GB should have a place where actual experts in harmonics or metallurgy or particular platfoms (yeah, I said it, GTFO yourselves) can chime in. Ultimately it is "caveat emptor," but it would be best if the buyer had a single place to find all claims verifiable.
Edit: And am I the one seeing the "barrel sleeve" all over again???

Above poster brings up a good point and why I mentioned if send off barrel for a deep salt bath that has burr at some point in rifling, rough throat or flaw in crown it's best dealt with before the melonite process is done and barrel hardened. I believe "Melonite" is a trade marked name for the same process called deep salt bath treatment, QRP and other names. I know done correctly it greatly increases durability of a rifles bore and reason have bought Smith M&P 15's just to get the barrel for a battle rifle build where durability under extreme use is more important than a half MOA give or take in accuracy. Lucky Gunner did one of the best endurance tests that showed the Smith barrels showed no appreciable wear at 10,000 rounds sent down range till guns became to hot to hold or started cooking off. Have abused two Smith melonite AR barrels purposely in a Slidefire and binary rifle. Both are past 5,000 rounds with chambers, throats and rifling all still looking fine.

Wish Blackstar or a similar microscopic polishing process still could be found. It never caught on but for a while buying a Shilen/Douglas/Krieger/etc my smith would rough profile the blank and send to the freezer. When came back would finish profile and cut throat then send to Blackstar for microscopic surface smoothing of chamber, throat and bore. Upon return would assemble rifle with action bedded to the foundation of a skyscraper, totally floated barrel and based on bullet weight rifle was being built around (yes had rifles built specifically for a set bullet weight and ballistic coefficient) would then start experimenting with different brake designs to tune the barrel harmonics to bullet. Usually after finished my load development he would have me bring it back, shoot from his bench and on occasion change size or angle of a few of all ports just a fuzz and get me another tenth or two at 100 which added up to inches past 500 yards so understand a little about barrel harmonics as purchaser of custom tack drivers. Was amazing to see him shoot three rounds at 100, three at 300, remove brake and tweak, reinstall shoot three more at 100, tweak again then lock it down and usually have gained 3/8" to 3/4" at 300 "tuning the barrel harmonics" one final time after build, load development and break in was done. Barrel harmonics are a very complex subject but what I will say is that unless a barrel is totally free floated then tuning harmonics is almost impossible if barrel is contacting forearm, piston operated gas system and other parts of the rifle. I mentioned a tuning fork earlier, grab the ends of one between fingers then tap and see if it rings at all much less changes pitch. Yes, accuracy can be improved on an FAL but not by altering it's barrel harmonics unless figure out how to free float it and totally isolate it from gas system. Changing twist, improving chamber, better crown and a hundred different tricks can improve accuracy but harmonics are so low on the list they don't even warrant discussion.

tdb59
September 05, 2017, 16:09
Buy the rifle and go out and shoot it, it will take several hundred rounds to break in which you can do with Ball ammo if you wish.
At that point once the rifle has settled in to itself and your ready to start using some 175 gr M118LR..........

.....

amazing.




................

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 16:17
I'm pretty sure, you screwed this up as well, mate!

I read it, as waiting for you to take up your rifle against GMAN or Gunplumber and see who's still standing at the end of the day as being a great marketing tool for your so called superior rifles.

Might be wrong, Tex speaks for himself.



So I will.
Well, pretty close YH. I would just as soon that nobody gets shot. I'm talking about putting the rifle to work to prove its accuracy on paper. I guess, more of a "shooting contest", not a duel. :wink:

Let croc shoot his rifles against any doubters (Gman, GP, etc) who want to match their iron against his. If his claims prove out, then good news for folks who want/need that sort of rifle. If not, well, then we'll know. I think it would help to have all interested parties shoot each other's rifles to eliminate "user error". It would do no good for me to shoot any of them...too much user error then! :facepalm:

Oh, I think it would be a bloody good show!

Ant W
September 05, 2017, 16:18
Mr YELLOWHAND you should take your own advice and STFU.
Maybe keep Mark the plumber company.
I didn't start this thread but you want to keep it going by slinging shit in my direction.
I'm not going to pander to you, GMAN or Gun Plumber. You'all never be a customers of mine and that's likely mutual. Anyone who's interested in buying one of my rifles can come and test one before buying. Always been that way.

Riversidesports
September 05, 2017, 16:37
So I will.
Well, pretty close YH. I would just as soon that nobody gets shot. I'm talking about putting the rifle to work to prove its accuracy on paper. I guess, more of a "shooting contest", not a duel. :wink:

Let croc shoot his rifles against any doubters (Gman, GP, etc) who want to match their iron against his. If his claims prove out, then good news for folks who want/need that sort of rifle. If not, well, then we'll know. I think it would help to have all interested parties shoot each other's rifles to eliminate "user error". It would do no good for me to shoot any of them...too much user error then! :facepalm:

Oh, I think it would be a bloody good show!

Shit just machine rest a couple of Croc's rifles and be done with it.

Testing doesn't have to be rocket science

either the claims stand or don't. It's pretty simple.

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 16:46
Mr YELLOWHAND you should take your own advice and STFU.
Maybe keep Mark the plumber company.
I didn't start this thread but you want to keep it going by slinging shit in my direction.
I'm not going to pander to you, GMAN or Gun Plumber. You'all never be a customers of mine and that's likely mutual. Anyone who's interested in buying one of my rifles can come and test one before buying. Always been that way.

Dickhead, I would not buy anything from you, that's a given, simply due to your shitty ass attitude.

You started throwing out your, stand down range horseshit, and let folks shoot at people with your superior rifles shit, I just called you out dickhead to take your rifle and go up against some grown men, if you're so damned confident in your product and wish to demonstrate that in a live fire environment.:uhoh:

Gunplumber is a pussy cat compared to me when I see a load of horseshit running its mouth and telling lies to people that don;t know any better than to listen.

Once again, put your rifle into a sled, then fire off five rounds of any make ammunition and make all five rounds fit into one inch area, then make the claim all day long that your shit will shoot into a one inch area at 100 yds.

Until then, its simply bullshit.

People that hang out around here, buy FAL type rifles, I own five of the things, getting ready to have a six, I might keep this thread going for years, just to piss you off or until you put up or shut up.:rofl:

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 16:47
Shit just machine rest a couple of Croc's rifles and be done with it.

Testing doesn't have to be rocket science

either the claims stand or don't. It's pretty simple.

See, WE fully agree on something!:rofl:

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 16:53
So I will.
Well, pretty close YH. I would just as soon that nobody gets shot. I'm talking about putting the rifle to work to prove its accuracy on paper. I guess, more of a "shooting contest", not a duel. :wink:

Let croc shoot his rifles against any doubters (Gman, GP, etc) who want to match their iron against his. If his claims prove out, then good news for folks who want/need that sort of rifle. If not, well, then we'll know. I think it would help to have all interested parties shoot each other's rifles to eliminate "user error". It would do no good for me to shoot any of them...too much user error then! :facepalm:

Oh, I think it would be a bloody good show!

Me too, far to old for that shit any more, in tha rear with the gear and old wimmen, but for a poo head like this one, I'd make an exception just for the hell of it!:rofl:

He can sled his superior rifles, fire five rounds and make a small fortune, if all five rounds land inside a inch area, as he claims they will do, but without providing any proof.

nounnoun
September 05, 2017, 16:57
another argument I'd buy:

The increased twist and bullet mass counter the disruption the F1 causes due to uneven gas pressures as the bullet passes through it -- lack of vents on the bottom end acting like a brake, &e -- while retaining the improved recoil characteristics and whatever benefits come from reducing overall length/shifting center of gravity back/sleeving the last ~4" of barrel.

I'm inclined to believe prejudice against that muzzle device -- based primarily on a like two anecdotes -- is causing others to skip over the one variable that a group of factory engineers came up with and which carries the lion's share in changing performance. I can see how if one had cut their teeth on the standard FH, it might take them "several hundred rounds to break in," or rather, get used to and be able to wring the most performance out of the F1.

Jaxxas
September 05, 2017, 17:00
http://i.imgur.com/pj5jwXM.jpg (https://imgur.com/pj5jwXM)

Riversidesports
September 05, 2017, 17:05
See, WE fully agree on something!:rofl:

As I always stated, we agree on MANY things
This drama and that's what it's became is largely not relevant.

Drop the rifle into a machine rest
use whatever ammo the maker wishes for the proving

It either performs or doesn't
end of story.

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 17:11
As I always stated, we agree on MANY things
This drama and that's what it's became is largely not relevant.

Drop the rifle into a machine rest
use whatever ammo the maker wishes for the proving

It either performs or doesn't
end of story.

Yepper!

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 17:29
Shit just machine rest a couple of Croc's rifles and be done with it.

.

Oh yeah.:cool: Hell, I'm jes a an old country boy, never had them fancy sleds or machine rest! I'm lucky to have a rest of any kind to shoot from.:smile:

See what I mean?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/K31/42K31Bushnell3200closer.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/K31/42K31Bushnell3200closer.jpg.html)

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 17:40
Oh yeah.:cool: Hell, I'm jes a an old country boy, never had them fancy sleds or machine rest! I'm lucky to have a rest of any kind to shoot from.:smile:

See what I mean?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/K31/42K31Bushnell3200closer.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/K31/42K31Bushnell3200closer.jpg.html)

I've got one like that, never fired it yet, looks just like yours though.

where did ya get the scope mount from?


As for rifle rest, you are fancy, ;) with that bag, I'm still using the scissors mount for my M16 that followed me home back in tha day.:sad:

We so poor, have to use bags to make pants from, so we won;t show our ass.:wink:

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 17:50
"where did ya get the scope mount from?"

I bought it from Brownells. It's the Swiss Products (or St. Marie) mount. That scope was an old Weaver K4 but it went tits up. She now wears a Bushnell Elite 3200. That's a damned accurate old rifle, a 1942 in beech.

Here's a sighting in target. Now don't laugh because it's only 25 meters. Hell, I'm half-blind from the sugar diabetes!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/K31/gp11.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/K31/gp11.jpg.html)

The old girl at work at a 105 yards:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/deer/IMG_0024.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/deer/IMG_0024.jpg.html)

Sorry, I've plumb derailed this thread now...:facepalm:

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 17:52
"where did ya get the scope mount from?"

I bought it from Brownells. It's the Swiss Products (or St. Marie) mount. That scope was an old Weaver K4 but it went tits up. She now wears a Bushnell Elite 3200. That's a damned accurate old rifle, a 1942 in beech.

Here's a sighting in target. Now don't laugh because it's only 25 meters. Hell, I'm half-blind from the sugar diabetes!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/K31/gp11.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/K31/gp11.jpg.html)

The old girl at work at a 105 yards:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/deer/IMG_0024.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/deer/IMG_0024.jpg.html)

Sorry, I've plumb derailed this thread now...:facepalm:

Thanks!

Na on thread derailment, plan to keep this sucker going until fellow proves his claims.;)

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 18:08
Below is my special 8000.00 dollar FAL rifle, if anyone is interested, :rofl: an Imbel kit fitted to a Argy receiver, built by Gun Plumber, which will place 20 rounds up into a nats ass at 200 yards, for damn sure it will too, :whistling: but, don't ask me to duplicate this superior shooting feat, :uhoh: because I've sworn off shooting rounds up nats asses, 20 rounds was pretty rough on that one nat!:butthurt:

And it does all this, because Mark made it all black with something, :secret: and black rifles shoot so much better, something to do with the harmonics of tha process adhering to the molecule structure of the steel at certain temperatures, all while being applied while smoking a cigar on the third Tuesday of the month.

<a href="https://imgur.com/xGXMu5Y"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/xGXMu5Yl.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

gunplumber
September 05, 2017, 18:26
This is just for the Gun Plumber.

Same way as you added rifling to the bore.

In other words, you are full of shit, and I just proved it (again).

By the way Smith Enterprise in Tempe Arizona that's real close to you, are still waiting for you to come and beat them up as you promised you would.

You do have a habit of making shit up - why would this be any different?

Bug Tussell
September 05, 2017, 18:27
Four 5 shot groups at 100 yards off a bench. If the rifle shoots moa or better I will sing the song of your people - "Waltzing Matilda" with my hand over my heart and with lots of gusto while drinking a Fosters! :fal:

Texgunner
September 05, 2017, 18:34
Four 5 shot groups at 100 yards off a bench. If the rifle shoots moa or better I will sing the song of your people - "Waltzing Matilda" with my hand over my heart and with lots of gusto while drinking a Fosters! :fal:

Too right mate! :smile:

yellowhand
September 05, 2017, 18:41
Four 5 shot groups at 100 yards off a bench. If the rifle shoots moa or better I will sing the song of your people - "Waltzing Matilda" with my hand over my heart and with lots of gusto while drinking a Fosters! :fal:

I'll even kiss one of his cousins!

<a href="https://imgur.com/mwLObWC"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/mwLObWCl.png" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

gunplumber
September 05, 2017, 18:47
another argument I'd buy:

The increased twist and bullet mass counter the disruption the F1 causes due to uneven gas pressures as the bullet passes through it -- lack of vents on the bottom end acting like a brake, &e -- while retaining the improved recoil characteristics and whatever benefits come from reducing overall length/shifting center of gravity back/sleeving the last ~4" of barrel.

I'm inclined to believe prejudice against that muzzle device -- based primarily on a like two anecdotes -- is causing others to skip over the one variable that a group of factory engineers came up with and which carries the lion's share in changing performance. I can see how if one had cut their teeth on the standard FH, it might take them "several hundred rounds to break in," or rather, get used to and be able to wring the most performance out of the F1.

Meh, it's a complicated issue. Aussie Dpt of Defense wrote that their testing show the F1 has

reduced concussion to shooter and at 45 and 90 degrees
reduced muzzle rise energy (20%) ( 11.5Nm v 14.2 Nm)*
faster time back on target.
equal flash reduction (95%)
2-1/2" shorter
all fittings except for the blank adapter are compatible, and that is easily modified (painted red instead of yellow).
reduced signature from dust
superior single shot accuracy
Slightly different 25m zero as POA=POI

Skennerton's comments are interesting but not as complete as that in the Defense Ministry's Tech manual.

They suggest that the point of departure closer to the sights on the F1 equipped SLR makes it more accurate (better grouping) at shorter ranges and only at 600m does it fall short of the standard flash eliminator. The longer barrel=standard flash hider has a longer wave. Shorter barrel had shorter wave. The velocity of the bullet and the sine wave of the barrel are closest together at 600. The same point is at a shorter distance with the F1, although that that distance is, is not listed.

Skennerton wrote (p45) that it was found that in the zeroing process, the grouping ability was adversely affected and the standards had to be reduced by about 50% to "pass" them for issue - and is therefore detrimental to accuracy. I mentioned the different point of aim in the zeroing standards, but I have found no confirmation of this assertion in any of my source material. Which doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm wondering if Ian is misinterpreting a change in group center for a change in group size. I'm also curious how there is increased single round accuracy but decreased multiple round groupings.

*this is "jump" or the difference in the line of departure of the bullet and the static axis of the bore in a fixed rest. It is not the angular displacement of the muzzle upon firing due to the stock in the shooter's shoulder being below the axis of the bore.

the gman
September 05, 2017, 19:20
You know what GMAN I think that you have a reading disability, you don't comprehend what you read and therefore you end up commenting on things that don't exist.
No one mentioned that the bore is not melonited only you came up with that one all by yourself. Before the internet your type was found outside the general store, wearing bib overalls, bullshitting a couple drunks who weren't sober yet. I'd be afraid to put a loaded gun in your hands since you might hurt yourself or someone else. You have no control over your mouth and, your a name caller, you don't even know me and you are publicly stating that I smoke crack from Espanola. Some might find you funny or entertaining but to me you are a Libelous. I wouldn't give you the time of day and especially not one of my rifles.

I read perfectly well. I also am able write at least semi-coherently, using paragraphs, commas, semi-colons and parenthesis to allow people to follow along without going blind. Unfortunately, it appears you never had that ability which I understand as you're obviously the product of the lowest criminal genes that the UK exported to Oz.:wink:

Go back and re-read what Trypcil posted, in fact, you're such a slow learner, I'll save you the trouble:

Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.

Now do you understand? :facepalm:

Your diarrhea of the mouth regarding imports, receivers, the 1968 GCA and the 1986 FOPA was so riddled with half truths, rumors, suppositions and bull shit, I simply don't have time to deal with it all. My easiest response to your assertions regarding recent DSA production receivers is to direct you to the two threads GP has posted here which extensively document the numerous and ongoing issues with their receivers.

Anyone who has been here any length of time knows full well GP and I often do NOT get along. However, his skill set as a gunsmith is well known, receiving such accolades as being the official refinisher for HK and voted as Gunsmith of the Year 2007 by Small Arms Review, THE magazine for seriously dedicated firearms enthusiasts. He is not only arrogant but also more than willing to defend his position by providing empherical evidence in the form of measurements, observations and demonstrations. He has shared his knowledge and skills here freely for at the least the 15 years I have been on this forum and never received a penny in payment. What have you offered to the membership here?

I've provided copies of blueprints, advice based on actual training given by government entities authorized to train armourers and copies of other documents scanned from the archives at the Royal Armouries in the UK. I instigated the first ever FAL Fest at Raton in 2006, providing the funding for the liability insurance to cover the whole event, the targets, the gun racks and even some trophies as well as some prizes. Others joined in and we had a great time with participants from all over the US and overseas. What have YOU done for this interest, this sport and this forum?

Nope, not a fcuking thing except bullshit and bluster. You consider what I've said as libelous? My name is George Joy, I run a company called GS Arms LLC in Farmington, NM and I'm also a detective with a police agency here in the 4 corners. If you do a search, you'll find me featured on KOB TV a few weeks ago when I arrested a scumbag who was preying on mental health patients. I eagerly await the notice of tort from your attorney if you wanna sue for libel bub, bring it on.

I don't hide behind the internet like some people and I offered you the opportunity to make me eat shit by demonstrating your weapons at any range of your choice. You choose not to. Instead, you make asinine remarks about being downrange at 600 yards while a dickhead like you can take pot shots at me? Please. You're supposed to be 60 years old not fcuking 6.

Either your rifles can perform to the standard you claim or they can't: PERIOD. If I was to take your word for it, you would need to prove by dint of your training and/or experience that your word meant something. If you were George Gardner of GA Precision or a nationally renowned shot like David Tubb, then your word might be worth something. The outrageous claims you make are not backed up by collective experience here, by other far more prestigious smiths, by the folks who QPQ/Melonite/Nitride barrels or by anyone other than Anthony the Aussie who says it is so.

Its clear you're a pathological liar with delusions of grandeur beyond your abilities. Send me a PM and I'll give you my attorney's name and we can meet in District Court. In fact, I welcome the chance to face you down and demonstrate your inadequacies as will my attorney cuz he likes easy cases and easy money. Put up or SHUT up. :facepalm::facepalm:

hkshooter
September 05, 2017, 19:26
Wow, this thread grew legs today.

Ant W, welcome to the forums.

I know little about the gigantic flinging of poo topic being bantered about here, I freely admit it. Salt bath nitride. Meh, whatever. I'd have it just for wear resistance, which I'm sure is a real benefit.

My only dig at your rifles is their price because I don't see anything that would make them $2k more valuable than the next parts build. But that's my opinion and you are certainly free to get all you can for your wares regardless of what I or others think about it. More power to you.

Again, welcome to the forums. Too bad you arrived under the circumstances you have rather than something a little more positive or innocent.

Johnaski
September 05, 2017, 20:24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sh0wr7HH8Y

ActionYobbo
September 05, 2017, 20:55
Wow, this thread grew legs today.

Ant W, a very late welcome to the forums for 11 years ago
.

:rofl:

gunplumber
September 05, 2017, 21:40
We used the Pat Jones 1/10 twist L1A1 rifle barrel, recut the chamber for M118LR and melonited it to a 60Rc skin.


The M118LR is longer in the throat (.117 freebore) and smaller in the neck (.3085") to match the ogive on the 168g BTHP and 175g Matchking).

I'll ask again, since you so inelegantly dodged the simple question. How do you "re-cut" Pat's GI chamber to a smaller neck than it started?


(((crickets))))

RG Coburn
September 05, 2017, 22:01
I'm guessing Pat Jones didn't use to make his own barrels? Somebody made them for him,or maybe he bought blanks and profiled them to the L1A1 pattern? I wonder what or who was his source.

msnyder
September 05, 2017, 22:28
I'm guessing Pat Jones didn't use to make his own barrels? Somebody made them for him,or maybe he bought blanks and profiled them to the L1A1 pattern? I wonder what or who was his source.

Dezarms.

308/223shooter
September 05, 2017, 23:02
Dezarms.

I have one of the Dez barrels somewhere, tried the F1 hider, went to the C1 hider which worked better. Plan to make a para barrel out of it.

nounnoun
September 05, 2017, 23:10
Meh, it's a complicated issue. Aussie Dpt of Defense wrote that their testing show the F1 has

reduced concussion to shooter and at 45 and 90 degrees
reduced muzzle rise energy (20%) ( 11.5Nm v 14.2 Nm)*
faster time back on target.
equal flash reduction (95%)
2-1/2" shorter
all fittings except for the blank adapter are compatible, and that is easily modified (painted red instead of yellow).
reduced signature from dust
superior single shot accuracy
Slightly different 25m zero as POA=POI

Skennerton's comments are interesting but not as complete as that in the Defense Ministry's Tech manual.

They suggest that the point of departure closer to the sights on the F1 equipped SLR makes it more accurate (better grouping) at shorter ranges and only at 600m does it fall short of the standard flash eliminator. The longer barrel=standard flash hider has a longer wave. Shorter barrel had shorter wave. The velocity of the bullet and the sine wave of the barrel are closest together at 600. The same point is at a shorter distance with the F1, although that that distance is, is not listed.

Skennerton wrote (p45) that it was found that in the zeroing process, the grouping ability was adversely affected and the standards had to be reduced by about 50% to "pass" them for issue - and is therefore detrimental to accuracy. I mentioned the different point of aim in the zeroing standards, but I have found no confirmation of this assertion in any of my source material. Which doesn't mean it's not there, but I'm wondering if Ian is misinterpreting a change in group center for a change in group size. I'm also curious how there is increased single round accuracy but decreased multiple round groupings.

What's funny, it's not too hard to read that as:

-- improves accuracy in semi-auto only
-- the sum of the benefits reduced innate grouping sizes by 50%, making it more difficult for poor or beginner shooters to match (if your service rifle goes from 3" to 1.5" groups in testing, do you revise training standards to account for a drop in margin of error?), adversely affecting standards

Call me crazy, but we have a thread where part of someone's magic accuracy recipe is the F1, various bulletin board anecdotes along the lines of "the F1 shoots as well, or better, than the other,"* positive government reports, and an assertion made by a military history writer that it harms accuracy.


That's just where I'm at as a new guy, but I'm intrigued.
It seems to me that very little was known about the behavior of gases traveling at high speeds, pressures, and temperatures as they exited a gun barrel in the mid-1950s, and this is backed by this report (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/634649.pdf) on the lack of knowledge during the development of the M73 machine gun for the M60 tank. The F1 is developed when the L1A1 is competing for sales with the M16, so it makes sense to me that it's going to be superior to the original, and likely also result in a pretty significant improvement in accuracy, if only as part of the total improvement, over the one designed when R&D was damn close to just blind hunches and trial and error.

"Flash hiders received considerable attention during the First World War; however, the most effective devices namely, bar-type flash suppressors. did not make an appearance until 1949. At this time, the Franklin Institute accidently discovered the flash suppression capabilities of bars or prongs placed in the muzzle flow regime." -- Ballistics Reasearch Lab at Aberdeen, Report No. 2276, Feb 1973

*"I have two all Australian Eden Imports guns, one standard length, and the other PNG. The PNG configured gun is definitely the handier of the two guns. It's also the more accurate. Can't say why it sould be, but it is!" (http://l1a1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890052&postcount=8)

801_Tactical
September 06, 2017, 00:44
Below is my special 8000.00 dollar FAL rifle, if anyone is interested, :rofl: an Imbel kit fitted to a Argy receiver, built by Gun Plumber, which will place 20 rounds up into a nats ass at 200 yards, for damn sure it will too, :whistling: but, don't ask me to duplicate this superior shooting feat, :uhoh: because I've sworn off shooting rounds up nats asses, 20 rounds was pretty rough on that one nat!:butthurt:

And it does all this, because Mark made it all black with something, :secret: and black rifles shoot so much better, something to do with the harmonics of tha process adhering to the molecule structure of the steel at certain temperatures, all while being applied while smoking a cigar on the third Tuesday of the month.

<a href="https://imgur.com/xGXMu5Y"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/xGXMu5Yl.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

You forgot to say don't ask anyone with a regular FAL experience to comment on this, because they are just dumb asses that can't understand the voodoo behind all my bullshit lies. Don't ask for any targets to prove my claims either, they don't exist because regular smart people are incapable of understanding that a coating on the barrel gives it super powers.

I'm about sick of Ant's BS, put up fucker, or shut up. Shoot the gun in front of people that have challenged you and show the results or GO THE **** AWAY. All mouth and no show. Snake oil and voodoo.

Andy the Aussie
September 06, 2017, 00:51
My (factory) L1A1F1 was more accurate (from sand bags) than any of the several standard L1A1s I owned or shot against. The exception being a hammer forged barrelled one that belonged to a close friend. That does not account for my poor shooting in comps, the rifle was more than capable. This seemed to be the experience of a number of people here who had F1s.

Rudolf
September 06, 2017, 02:13
I think some of Pats barrels were still blanks. I remember seeing some of the them in the blank stage other than the exterior cuts??

Is that possible?

Striker1423
September 06, 2017, 07:30
This thread quickly became retarded.

It's simple. The FAL is just like every other semi-auto Mil-surp rifle I've seen (M1 Garand much?). Massive amounts of work to make accurate what was meant to hit a man-sized target at battle ranges (200, maybe 300 yards).

The FAL has sights on its back half, a hinge in the middle, and a front sight on the front half. Problem one. Fix that and you started on a long road of everything else you need to do to keep this BATTLE RIFLE accurate like it's some sort of bolt-gun specifically built for headshots at 1000 yards plus... even though it's a 308.

No argument needed. Unless everything is done up to such an extent that everything works together in harmony, a man-killer is all these rifles will ever be.

So, in short, stop arguing over nonsense and I'll stop cluttering the issue with facts.

aussiedave
September 06, 2017, 11:01
Reply to Aussie Dave,
I grew up in the time before the gun ban.
I'm 60 now so do the math. I'm talking of a time when we still had gun stores and semi autos were normal.
You may not remember it as your recollection of OZ is a post ban one but we had a program at schools called cadets. Our school had an armory as most schools did back then. We had a couple of racks of .303's about 4-5 SLR's and a couple of Brens in transit cases. All of them worked they weren't demilled. Some of our .303 rifles were DP marked.
There are not that many people left living up in Lithgow who worked at the factory to talk with anymore but you can learn a lot talking to Aussies that were involved in it.

sorry antW, I also grew up in OZ and was a dealer during the 1980s-through the mid 1990s, I was in cadets, we got to play with L1A1s, I bought guns direct from fuller firearms. my recollection is not post ban, actually there are plenty of people who worked at the factory, I still do talk to a few, one of the best gunsmiths in NSW lives not far from there, when I was working at silverdale SSAA range we had people from there coming to shoot on a regular basis.

Ant W
September 06, 2017, 17:14
Hey Aussie Dave,
No worries mate!
Always glad to hear from another expat.
I'm never far from the phone so gives us a call some time.
Regards Anthony.

Ant W
September 06, 2017, 17:33
Hey Flypaper,
Smith Ent in Tempe AZ. have been using salt bath nitriding (SBN) for almost 2 decades.
They initially did their SBN to stop the M14 barrels from stretching which was one of the biggest problems in the way of acurizing the M14.
All Smith Ent rifles with their Crazy Horse barrels are guaranteed Sub MOA. We had Smith Ent make us a Vortex Flash Eliminator for the L1A1 so now we are able to easily run their Windtalker Sound Suppressors when ever we are out shooting.
As soon as I have sufficient time to make a L1A1 firing vise I will gladly share the paper targets with interested people as what the rifle does with and without a suppressor on it, Vortex and No Vortex, etc. is our big concern at the moment.
Regards Anthony.

Ant W
September 06, 2017, 17:45
Hello 801_Tactical,
Nice to hear from you.
You're so friendly. Glad I'm not your neighbor.
Something for you to chew on bud, the whole world doesn't revolve around you or the forums or your stupid challenges and who the heck do you think you are anyway, I don't ever remember you calling our shop to ask about our rifles. That's the case with every loud mouth who been putting my L1A1's down. I don't owe you guys a thing. I take care of my customers real good and I don't have any complaints except from people like you.
So GFY and have nice life.

yellowhand
September 06, 2017, 18:33
Still no targets, still no proof of BS claims, bla, bla, bla, defensive, etc.

Ant ya got called out, do yourself a favor, either put up or shut up and go away. :facepalm:

Or go back and re-read, How to win friends and influence people, and I might add, in a positive way.

Not exactly sure what ya are doing, but I do know you are doing it all wrong.:D

You build and sell rifles, you made claims that most here find to be BS, you got called out, and still, you keep running your mouth and provide zero proof to your claims.

So, put up or shut up.

hkshooter
September 06, 2017, 18:44
:rofl:

Hmm, hadn't noticed that. Been so long since he was active it's like he's a Files virgin again.

hueyville
September 06, 2017, 19:48
(Trim)
#1
The 1/12 twist standard L1A1 rifle barrel when coupled with an F1 Flash Hider was not as accurate as the same barrel with a Std five slot Flash Hider as issued on most Aussie L1A1's.
We used the Pat Jones 1/10 twist L1A1 rifle barrel, recut the chamber for M118LR and melonited it to a 60Rc skin

#2
We coupled the barrel with an F1 Flash Hider and the rifle produced sub MOA. The F1 changes the length of the barrel by about 2" that alone changes the harmonic but instead of changing it for the worse (as on a std barrel) it changed it for the better.

What changed? The twist rate of course, chamber cut and the meloniting. As I have said before the changes are subtle and more akin to a tuning. I think some people are expecting something dramatic by they way they write, but in general a few less hysterical people seems to agree that any changes would be minimal which of course I agree with. The barrel with a 1/10 twist has a slightly less weight than a 1/12 twist, the meloniting makes the barrel exterior (this includes the bore & chamber) harder now at about 60Rc instead of about 30-34Rc,

#3
the M118LR chamber has a longer throat than M80 Ball Chamber. We did each of these things since its all been well proven on the Smith Ent. M14 rifles that we have been selling for years now.

I am going to play the other side of the fence and while compiled in a slightly confusing manner he finally made some statements that might actually have some real affect on actual accuracy of these magical rifles. Before I was going on the claims that the rifle shot better due to improved harmonics from melonite process which is utter nonsense. Melonite will make a barrel more durable, more resistant to corrosion and increase its long term accuracy by reducing affects of erosion.

#1: Now we are told these rifles are built on Pat Jones 1:10 twist barrels and chambers specifically recut for M118LR ammunition then melonited. Speeding up the twist for a given barrel design and cutting the chamber specifically for one type of match ammo should increase its potential to shoot a tighter group with the specified ammunition but with other ammunition it could have no effect or shoot worse. After doing this chamber modification deep salt bath treating the barrel should add erosion resistance and corrosion resistance but doubtfully increase accuracy. That would have come from the quicker twist and ammunition specific chamber.

#2: Changing the muzzle device and overall length of a barrel has the largest potential to change a barrels harmonics over recutting chamber or any proprietary finish. A longer throat will change the freebore of a chamber, it's how Weatherby keeps their overbore magnums from blowing up. Increased freebore will aid in accuracy in my experience if using longer bullets as able to seat bullets out farther (if magazine allows) and in turn gives increased case capacity for powder but we are not talking about tailored handloads. This is M118LR which is designed to work safely in a variety of rifles with SAAMI and NATO chambers.

#3: Discussed in number #1 response but since repeated yourself, changing amount of freebore is usually only an accuracy help if increasing distance from case head to ogive of bullet. Without closing up the bullet jump from case neck to lands of rifle will usually see decrease in accuracy unless believe some of Weatherby's propaganda. Know a smith that builds a custom bolt action using 270 Weatherby Magnum as his cartidges of choice but blueprints the action, builds it burly as a bear and takes all the clearance out so that a factory round should engage to lands or be very close to them and tells clients to set up loads so that bullet ogive engages lands but if do such in wrong rifle and will KaBoom a rifle.

So recutting chamber to match grade ammo using a reputed quality barrel with faster twist rate, proprietary coating that does increase lubricity of bore and hardens it for longer life, changing length and barrel length and muzzle device has potential to positively affect barrel harmonics so it's a stacking of many different things to tailor it to ONE ammunition type. If increased accuracy only happens with one load and not across the board with multiple ammunition selections, especially commonly available M80 NATO spec ball then is it a more accurate rifle or does it just shoot one round well. I know if sat at bench long enough could work a load for every FAL I own that increases that rifles accuracy significantly but might shoot like crap in all the others.

So here you go, one ambivalent post that neither detracts or supports your claims of a more accurate FAL but address the different changes made to barrel drug out into the daylight after what seems like a half a lifetime of chunking claims and calling B.S. back and forth. Bottom line is there is no way I am going to lay out basically $4,000 for a clone on Enterprise receiver unless shown for sure it will shoot as claimed. I often say my last AR shoots "x" MOA, people can choose to believe me or not but I am not selling AR 15's based on such claims. If I were would pay out of pocket to transfer one to W.E.G. with variety of ammo, have him and his friends wring it out then let their results either sell my rifles or not. The proof is in the pudding and all it will take is meet a few Files members at a range and let them run a few groups. Even if had to refinish due to a couple handling marks I believe it would be worthwhile to prove these claims to the collective.

Now for my burning question, past these three rifles you claim are done and will shoot MOA do you have enough of your old stock special Enterprise receivers and Pat Jones barrels to build more or will future rifles be regular old clones like come up in marketplace often or can be commissioned by half a dozen members here?

RG Coburn
September 06, 2017, 19:57
The proof isn't even if he puts up targets...you have no idea in what conditions they were achieved. It would have to come from a fairly neutral party.Someone who can shoot,or has the sled,at a known distance. It might shoot great,or shoot like crap,I don't know. The whole thing sounds dubious to me,because the rifle itself,in its best configuration,is not known to be a sub-moa sniping rifle,with consistency. It would actually behoove the guy to produce a test unit,let the whole community see this rifle fire and record the results for all to see.

AFeod
September 06, 2017, 21:15
:popcorn:

the gman
September 06, 2017, 21:29
The proof isn't even if he puts up targets...you have no idea in what conditions they were achieved. It would have to come from a fairly neutral party.Someone who can shoot,or has the sled,at a known distance. It might shoot great,or shoot like crap,I don't know. The whole thing sounds dubious to me,because the rifle itself,in its best configuration,is not known to be a sub-moa sniping rifle,with consistency. It would actually behoove the guy to produce a test unit,let the whole community see this rifle fire and record the results for all to see.

But there's the rub; Anthony won't do anything close to that. :rolleyes: He's relying on the suckers out there to believe his bullshit because he's an Aussie who once lived in Lithgow and touched the exterior walls of the factory... :whistling::whistling:

He's been called on his shit and refuses to prove his claims. Back in the day, folks like him sold snake oil and when they were found out, they were tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail. Then, after they cleaned themselves up, on they went to a new town and new suckers, hopefully making it out before they were discovered. Nothing new here, same old snake oil BS; make outrageous claims about how awesome your shit is, sell it for as much as is possible, impugn the reputation of anyone, no matter their background, training and experience who questions your snake oil. You have to deflect, deny and attempt to baffle the general public with enough science that you sound plausible to those who don't know any better.

Anthony sounds remarkably like R1... :p:p

yellowhand
September 06, 2017, 21:51
""Anthony sounds remarkably like R1... """

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

jhend170
September 07, 2017, 08:39
Same song second verse. At least someone with an SJ put up "results" pics, that prove... well it now has a big magical LOOKING barrel, that still shoots like a FAL.

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3320496

gunplumber
September 07, 2017, 09:00
We used the Pat Jones 1/10 twist L1A1 rifle barrel, recut the chamber for M118LR and melonited it to a 60Rc skin.

The M118LR is longer in the throat (.117 freebore) and smaller in the neck (.3085") to match the ogive on the 168g BTHP and 175g Matchking).

I'll ask for the third time, how do you "re-cut" Pat's GI chamber to a smaller neck than it started?


(((crickets))))

Oh what a tangled web we weave . . . .

See, that's why I don't lie. I know I'm not smart enough to remember things that never happened. Mendacem memorem esse oportet

801_Tactical
September 07, 2017, 11:04
Ant W

People have asked you to show your stuff, but you refuse. I suppose the put up or shut up opportunity didn't stick because you have done neither. That seems to tell the story. No results, no science on your claims = sham.

RG Coburn
September 07, 2017, 11:17
The M118LR is longer in the throat (.117 freebore) and smaller in the neck (.3085") to match the ogive on the 168g BTHP and 175g Matchking).

I'll ask for the third time, how do you "re-cut" Pat's GI chamber to a smaller neck than it started?


(((crickets))))

Oh what a tangled web we weave . . . .

See, that's why I don't lie. I know I'm not smart enough to remember things that never happened. Mendacem memorem esse oportet

Too,isn't it considered a no-no in precision shooting to use ammo other than the match ammo you plan to shoot competition,or snipe with,as "break-in" ammo? Like ball ammo?

mribley
September 07, 2017, 11:32
Mendacem memorem esse oportet

There must be a liar!

I had to look it up.
Thanks
MJR

ActionYobbo
September 07, 2017, 11:53
Too,isn't it considered a no-no in precision shooting to use ammo other than the match ammo you plan to shoot competition,or snipe with,as "break-in" ammo? Like ball ammo?

No but break in is also sight in and load development/tuning. So it would be rather pointless to not use the ammo that will be used for precision shooting.

Jaxxas
September 07, 2017, 12:57
Mendacem memorem esse oportet

There must be a liar!

I had to look it up.
Thanks
MJR

I too looked it up but I got "A liar needs a good memory."!


http://www.latin-dictionary.org/JM-Latin-English-Dictionary/P/Mendacem_memorem_esse_oportet

gunplumber
September 07, 2017, 13:18
I too looked it up but I got "A liar needs a good memory."!

That was what I was trying to write, but I almost flunked out of Latin II in 10th grade.

mp
September 07, 2017, 13:46
The best part of this dogpile is watching Hueyville pipe up with his incoherent ramblings.

Hueyville is the Brick Tamland (Anchorman) of this forum. "I love lamp!"

Ant W
September 07, 2017, 14:06
I want to address Hueyvilleís last posting on this thread as he as shown a reasonable side to himself;
In answer to your burning question,
These were personal L1A1ís I only have the 3 left to sell plus the two Iím keeping.
1. Iím out of the Buena Park Receivers after these, they are one reason for the rifles price tag.
2. The Pat Jones barrels are generally unavailable although I may have my finger on a few that could be melonited and sold for projects.
3. Anyone who has a nice receiver on a complete rifle can have a barrel installed, if we can get the barrels.
4. I have three sets of Aussie hardware left over and above the finished rifles that I just need barrels and receivers for. I can continue to look for Buena Parks but they are bringing a premium nowadays and GP, GMAN and others are complaining about the price already.
5. If you want to do a rifle build where you supply most of the parts so I donít have to waste my time on that aspect of it then that can be a way as well to get a less expensive rifle built.
6. I may or may not build more, I said itís a limited production run.
There are two types of Entreprise Arms Inc Receivers out there, the Early Sporter marked ones and then the late production without Sporter markings.
The very best Entreprise receivers must be marked Sporter on the left side otherwise they are late production investment cast. The Sporters are all Forged match grade receivers, I have the original invoice for the two that I bought from Entreprise back in the 80ís.
Now as to proving my claims to the collective it is just plain and simple not worth my time to do so.
Most of you are just blowing smoke about buying one if I prove it will shoot Sub MOA anyway, so why should I worry. There are only three rifles left for sale. Iím not trying to sell 500,000 copies of these.
Buy it and try it, everyone who has purchased one so far is happy with them.
As I said before 70% of my L1A1ís have already sold the remaining three are hardly worth my time from a cash flow perspective. This is the main reason I will not be doing a firing test until I get around to doing the vortex and suppressor test on my last two L1A1ís. This test I will happily share with those who are interested. They are expensive rifles and that is because of what has been spent on them. Iím not going to sell them at a loss but at the same time Iím certainly not getting rich on them. They are truly just the sum of their costs.
Back to the Pat Jones barrels these were purpose built to shoot better than the Mil Surp barrels. They have 1/10 twist bores and had match chambers
Now to my good friend and royal pain in the ass, the magnificent nitpicking Arrogant Bastard, GUN PLUMBER
Mark is correct that the spec for M118LR throat Dia is smaller by 15/10,000 ths of an inch than M80 Ball. Many tables will only show this as a 1/1000 ths of an inch difference. M852 Match uses the same throat diameter as M118LR. There are two scenarios where you would recut an M118LR chamber to an existing barrel.
1. Recutting a M852 Match Chamber, or
2. Recutting a M80 Ball Chamber.
In the case of the match chamber recut the throat would be lengthened by about 5 to 10/10,000ths depending on the care used while cutting.
In the case of the M80 Ball chamber recut the throat length would be extended out to M118LR length the same as above with a different length of cut since starting at M80 Ball throat dims.
Markís concern is that due to the different throat diameters for M80 vs. M852 & M118LR. A step in the throat down to the smaller diameter would be inevitable. Technically the step would be half the diameter measuring 71/2 /10,000 ths of an inch or less and about 3 thou long. The crimp on the case end gives this step sufficient clearance. These facts only hold true for as long as everything is precisely on spec to the same side of the tolerance. We are talking about less than a thou given no human error in manufacturing of the barrels and cutters used. This does not affect the bullet only the case neck during the final few 1/1000th of an inch of travel by the case into the chamber. Given that the headspace spec of 1.6325 as per Lithgow spec should be held then there is at a minimum 25/10,000ths of an inch of room plus the space provided by the bullet crimp are sufficient for safety and operation.
As for the Pat Jones barrels they were made for this and should not have a step in the throat.
One thing that should be remembered and has proved to be true on this forum, People donít read much of whatís in front of them let alone comprehend it. When writing an add for GunBroker you have only seconds to get a persons interest when they view your page. If you provide too much information it gets left unread. I want to give enough information to create questions and no more thatís why I say call me, which of course none of the bashers on the forum ever did. Those that did read the add misunderstood it anyway in most cases. So for all the name callers it is way more fun to call people names like LIAR and CRACK SMOKING AUSSIE. The Gun Plumber who likes to call me a liar for no other reason than he doesnít like competition is as he refers to himself an arrogant bastard, I could add a few more descriptive words to that but I donít care to call him names.
Now GMAN according to you, you are some kind of Copper and hats off to you mate but I expect more from my Law Enforcement than being a name caller. Now maybe you are actually a really decent human being in real life and your online persona is the vent you need after a work day doing whatever you do. I can accept that. The bashing that you instigated on this forum is unreasonable and unfair given that any of you bashers could have called me and discussed your questions with me in person, my number is in the add. Your statements about me personally and my personal habits are not funny, nor warranted. As to your lawyers name and address, again mate you go off half cocked all the time. Calm down.
Back to Hueyville, if you and a few others would like to buy a rifle together then its $3895 plus delivery.
I need to know if you want Ironwood Design Furniture or Aussie Coachwood and F1 or Std Muzzle device. Once you get it, put it through its paces, makes sure itís well documented and if itís not the best L1A1 you own give me a call because I want to know what your issues are.
Kind regards to all the sane people on the forum,
Anthony.
Crocs Gunshop
1-505-757-3461

Story
September 07, 2017, 14:12
Oh look, all the Aussies are congregating again.
http://cinetropolis.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/mad-max-beyond-thunderdome-5.jpg

Jaxxas
September 07, 2017, 14:29
That was what I was trying to write, but I almost flunked out of Latin II in 10th grade.

LOL! I barely got through Latin I in 9th grade, didn't even attempt Latin II, so God sent me Google!:whistling:

yellowhand
September 07, 2017, 18:20
LOL! I barely got through Latin I in 9th grade, didn't even attempt Latin II, so God sent me Google!:whistling:

Latin or Geek, first saw that, thought Mark had spent too much time again in the paint booth, again, happy to know its one of them forieng languages, was worried for a while I was.:biggrin:

As for the Ant man, proof amigo, proof of tha claims, like put up or shut up.:facepalm:
Ya made claims and can't back'em up.
Hole, digging, stop, as in, you're in a hole, so just stop digging.:cry:
I and many, many others here spend big bucks for firearms, and all I know about Crocs is from you, and none of it is good at this point.:rolleyes:

gunplumber
September 07, 2017, 18:49
Latin or Geek, first saw that, thought Mark had spent too much time again in the paint booth, again, happy to know its one of them forieng languages, was worried for a while I was.:biggrin:

טוב שקרן חייב להיות זיכרון
טוב

Riversidesports
September 07, 2017, 19:09
Latin or Geek, first saw that, thought Mark had spent too much time again in the paint booth, again, happy to know its one of them forieng languages, was worried for a while I was.:biggrin:

As for the Ant man, proof amigo, proof of tha claims, like put up or shut up.:facepalm:
Ya made claims and can't back'em up.
Hole, digging, stop, as in, you're in a hole, so just stop digging.:cry:
I and many, many others here spend big bucks for firearms, and all I know about Crocs is from you, and none of it is good at this point.:rolleyes:

I'm going to throw this out there...
1 MOA L1s exist. One of the L1s we assembled on NOS original C1 parts including barrel ended up that way. Total fluke. Only non Canuck bit was a NOS PNG FS. This was 90s, early Enteprise Arms receiver, we preordered a few as we had a mess of C1 bits we imported. This was before GPs infamous online tutorial on FAL building :biggrin:

Those were tremendous receivers when they came out, better than any thing inch DSA has ever offered.

If Croc has something that can mimic that accident on a regular basis that's Cool as hell.

The wood used btw was incredible. I hand picked wood out of a pile. Guy was burning C1 furniture to heat his shop :facepalm:
Some of the Walnut Canada cut was straight Exhibition grade.

Canada was weird like that :facepalm:

yellowhand
September 07, 2017, 20:24
טוב שקרן חייב להיות זיכרון
טוב

בגיל מבוגר הרג את הזיכרון שלי

tdb59
September 07, 2017, 20:51
Shheeee-it !

Iff'n I had an L1A1 that held anywhere close to 1 MOA, I would have 27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was.



:highpower:



.................

msnyder
September 07, 2017, 21:01
Shheeee-it !

Iff'n I had an L1A1 that held anywhere close to 1 MOA, I would have 27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was.



:highpower:



.................

I've got a few that are sub 2 moa with surplus ammo so I would think it's entirely possible that Croc's L1A1's will do close to moa with match ammo. And of course Pat said he was able to achieve sub-moa with his barrels but he didn't give any specifics.

Invictus77
September 07, 2017, 22:29
27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one.

Brudder frum anudder mudder me tinks :cheers:

yellowhand
September 07, 2017, 22:44
Brudder frum anudder mudder me tinks :cheers:

Hanging out with them darn Hillbillies again????:rofl:

Andy the Aussie
September 08, 2017, 00:24
Oh look, all the Aussies are congregating again.
http://cinetropolis.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/mad-max-beyond-thunderdome-5.jpg[/QUOTE] .....I am the good looking one there at the top left.... ;)

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 00:31
Bloody struth mate. It's looking like Anzac Day round 'ere! :biggrin:

:beer::beer::beer:

Riversidesports
September 08, 2017, 01:45
Shheeee-it !

Iff'n I had an L1A1 that held anywhere close to 1 MOA, I would have 27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was.



:highpower:



.................

to show who tard' ?

This was mid 90s

no Files, barely an internet.

I was in my 30s back then. I'm guessing you were like 11 or 12 :facepalm:

RG Coburn
September 08, 2017, 06:31
to show who tard' ?

This was mid 90s

no Files, barely an internet.

I was in my 30s back then. I'm guessing you were like 11 or 12 :facepalm:

He may have been referring the units AndyW says he builds.
At any rate,it's high time to start seeing results,not just claims. It's the weekend,drag out the gear,and get it done.

Riversidesports
September 08, 2017, 06:53
He may have been referring the units AndyW says he builds.
At any rate,it's high time to start seeing results,not just claims. It's the weekend,drag out the gear,and get it done.

Agreed on the proving.

I'm just saying I have owned a 1 MOA L1A1
at the time we had a NM Garand and a super match M1A...the L1 shot right alongside them.

Again, total fluke, the other two C1s were 2 MOA at best, both had nos C1 bbls too. No clue why it turned out that way, it just did.

jhend170
September 08, 2017, 07:39
Agreed on the proving.

I'm just saying I have owned a 1 MOA L1A1
at the time we had a NM Garand and a super match M1A...the L1 shot right alongside them.

Again, total fluke, the other two C1s were 2 MOA at best, both had nos C1 bbls too. No clue why it turned out that way, it just did.

Tolerance stacking goes both ways. Remember how the Brits chose which SMLEs would be the snipers? Locked into a sled, 3 rounds fired. If they went into an inch, they were sent to H&H to be fitted with glass. There was no "special" building of them, if they were "accidentally" accurate, they were put into service as such. More amazingly, no special ammo was used in the testing to my knowledge.

I have one of those, sadly sporterized before making its way to this side of the pond. I haven't taken the time to do anything special to accurize it (nothing to the stock, no loads worked up yet) but with factory ammo it manages about 1.5moa here nearly 75yrs after its birth.

Every once it a while the gun gawds smile and feel the need to touch a specific rifle.

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 08:55
Every once it a while the gun gawds smile and feel the need to touch a specific rifle.

Too right! Some are just built on the right day, by the right person. I think the same can be said for automobiles too. A cousin had a box-stock '66 Mustang, 289, 2 barrel carb and that car showed it's ass to many more powerful muscle cars. It just ran right. Car gods smile too. :smile:

gunplumber
September 08, 2017, 09:05
Now to my good friend and royal pain in the ass, the magnificent nitpicking Arrogant Bastard, GUN PLUMBER
Mark is correct that the spec for M118LR throat Dia is smaller by 15/10,000 ths of an inch than M80 Ball. Many tables will only show this as a 1/1000 ths of an inch difference. M852 Match uses the same throat diameter as M118LR. There are two scenarios where you would recut an M118LR chamber to an existing barrel.
1. Recutting a M852 Match Chamber, or
2. Recutting a M80 Ball Chamber.
In the case of the match chamber recut the throat would be lengthened by about 5 to 10/10,000ths depending on the care used while cutting.
In the case of the M80 Ball chamber recut the throat length would be extended out to M118LR length the same as above with a different length of cut since starting at M80 Ball throat dims.
Mark’s concern is that due to the different throat diameters for M80 vs. M852 & M118LR. A step in the throat down to the smaller diameter would be inevitable. Technically the step would be half the diameter measuring 71/2 /10,000 ths of an inch or less and about 3 thou long. The crimp on the case end gives this step sufficient clearance. These facts only hold true for as long as everything is precisely on spec to the same side of the tolerance. We are talking about less than a thou given no human error in manufacturing of the barrels and cutters used. This does not affect the bullet only the case neck during the final few 1/1000th of an inch of travel by the case into the chamber. Given that the headspace spec of 1.6325 as per Lithgow spec should be held then there is at a minimum 25/10,000ths of an inch of room plus the space provided by the bullet crimp are sufficient for safety and operation.
As for the Pat Jones barrels they were made for this and should not have a step in the throat.


Please clarify.
A. You lied about the barrels having a M118LR chamber. They do not.
B. You lied about recutting the chamber at all - you did not.
C. You lied about recutting the chamber to M118LR spec, because you cannot make a larger throat smaller.
D. Some of the Above
E. All of the above.

It is not "nitpicking". It is YOU BLATANTLY LYING, and me (and some others here) knowing enough about the subject, to know you're lying and to call you on it.

1911Ron
September 08, 2017, 09:37
Please clarify.
A. You lied about the barrels having a M118LR chamber. They do not.
B. You lied about recutting the chamber at all - you did not.
C. You lied about recutting the chamber to M118LR spec, because you cannot mae a larger throat smaller.
D. Some of the Above
E. All of the above.

It is not "nitpicking". It is YOU BLATANTLY LYING, and me (and some others here) knowing enough about the subject, to know you're lying and to call you on it.

Hell even someone who is about as dumb as a box of rocks knows that you can't cut a larger throat smaller. :facepalm:

Invictus77
September 08, 2017, 10:25
to show who tard' ?

This was mid 90s

no Files, barely an internet.

I was in my 30s back then. I'm guessing you were like 11 or 12 :facepalm:

Good call on that tbd character. I think he licked to many windows or something.

I'll call him tard-dog in the future. :biggrin:

tdb59
September 08, 2017, 11:21
to show who tard' ?

This was mid 90s

no Files, barely an internet.

I was in my 30s back then. I'm guessing you were like 11 or 12 :facepalm:

Your powers of deduction are lacking, Sir.


1 ) Not all posts are about you, though paranoia and feelings of inferiority may play well together in your head. Maybe not.

2 ) Since you are not (so far) attempting to sell an item with no evidence to support your claims, why the name calling? Is that your best ?

3 ) Certain references to pop culture pass you by.

http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/016/MI0000016463.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

4 )

http://pinkoski.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1959_1web1.jpg

baker72
September 08, 2017, 15:36
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: hahahah too funny Oh look, all the Aussies are congregating again.
http://cinetropolis.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/mad-max-beyond-thunderdome-5.jpg

TXMoose
September 08, 2017, 16:05
.....I am the good looking one there at the top left.... ;)[/QUOTE]

Obviously graded based on a curve:cool:

pistolero1911
September 08, 2017, 16:34
True story this:

Friend of mine originally from the Caribbean island nation of Jamaica, worked as a first mate on a reefer ship and had to fly out to OZ in order to catch the vessel and relieve another officer who had health issues. When he gets to Australian Immigration the agent starts giving him the third degree (he believes it was racially motivated, who really knows?)

Immigration: "Ever been convicted of a felony?"

Mate: "I didn't know it was still a requirement for entry."

Things deteriorated from that point. Friend never got to the ship in OZ, in fact he never got any further than the airport is Sydney.

persona non grata is what they called him.

yellowhand
September 08, 2017, 17:54
Any more Aussi's show up around here, well just damn, there goes the neighborhood, or should I say "hood" in that I've read all Aussi's have that there criminal gene thingy in them, yepper, read it on tha internet, so ya know its true it do!;)

As for all this, the fellow and his rifle claims, he is not the full quid, is behaving as a raw prawn, acts like a regular shonky, suffers from tall poppy syndrome, and appears as a yobbo.

Rudolf
September 08, 2017, 18:10
They are taking our women and siring them like crazy being they are all good looking and not fat or landwhales....

But hey..just my observations.

Andy the Aussie
September 08, 2017, 18:34
They are taking our women and siring them like crazy being they are all good looking and not fat or landwhales....

But hey..just my observations. .......well there was this great looking Gal in Tualatin back in the late 90s....best I know that I never sired any offspring but we certainly went through the motions....over and over.... :bigangel::bigangel::p

baker72
September 08, 2017, 18:35
They are taking our women and siring them like crazy being they are all good looking and not fat or landwhales....

But hey..just my observations.

yeah its true my wife is yank

tdb59
September 08, 2017, 18:44
.......well there was this great looking Gal in Tualatin back in the late 90s....best I know that I never sired any offspring but we certainly went through the motions....over and over.... :bigangel::bigangel::p

Oh !

Tualatin. Good.

If you had said Tigard or Beaverton, I may have been worried.


:shades:

...........

Andy the Aussie
September 08, 2017, 19:01
She said the same thing !!!!!

baker72
September 08, 2017, 19:21
Any more Aussi's show up around here, well just damn, there goes the neighborhood, or should I say "hood" in that I've read all Aussi's have that there criminal gene thingy in them, yepper, read it on tha internet, so ya know its true it do!;)

As for all this, the fellow and his rifle claims, he is not the full quid, is behaving as a raw prawn, acts like a regular shonky, suffers from tall poppy syndrome, and appears as a yobbo.

yeah you'd be lucky to have bunch of us living in your "hood" first off great BBQ great beer meat pies and cricket plus real footy without all the pads and helmets , they where helmets :bigangel: hahaha I jest.

baker72
September 08, 2017, 19:28
:]your mate didn't get in for being from the west indies lol, he didn't get in cause he is a dickhead. the blokes in custom don't have a great sense of humor.:biggrin:

never mouth off to custom agent when either arriving in oz or the usa. you will find the American agents are of a similar sense of humor:]


Cheers Big ear's

Will

True story this:

Friend of mine originally from the Caribbean island nation of Jamaica, worked as a first mate on a reefer ship and had to fly out to OZ in order to catch the vessel and relieve another officer who had health issues. When he gets to Australian Immigration the agent starts giving him the third degree (he believes it was racially motivated, who really knows?)

Immigration: "Ever been convicted of a felony?"

Mate: "I didn't know it was still a requirement for entry."

Things deteriorated from that point. Friend never got to the ship in OZ, in fact he never got any further than the airport is Sydney.

persona non grata is what they called him.

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 19:29
Mark the ball! :beer::beer::beer:

Go Geelong Cats!!

yellowhand
September 08, 2017, 19:38
yeah you'd be lucky to have bunch of us living in your "hood" first off great BBQ great beer meat pies and cricket plus real footy without all the pads and helmets , they where helmets :bigangel: hahaha I jest.

That be all fine and good, but tha burning question remains, do ya buy that meat, them criket things, and the balls, or do ya do as your ancestors, what be yours be mine, if'd I be quicker than you!:wink:


I actually mentioned once, that I'd spent a little time in Aussi land, and the person I was speaking too, and being very well educated to boot, actually said, I'd never go there, nothing but criminals live there.

She was serious, and I didn't have the heart to tell her otherwise.:sad:

Very pretty, but very dumb!:)

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 19:41
When I lived in Oz, I came to appreciate the fish 'n chips. Oh damn, did I love that stuff!! :biggrin:

yellowhand
September 08, 2017, 19:57
When I lived in Oz, I came to appreciate the fish 'n chips. Oh damn, did I love that stuff!! :biggrin:

I remember parts of my visit, arrival, somewhat, and departure, somewhat, but I'm told I had a wonderful time for ten days.:facepalm:;):D

And I don;t remember eating anything for that whole time.:wink:

baker72
September 08, 2017, 20:01
When I lived in Oz, I came to appreciate the fish 'n chips. Oh damn, did I love that stuff!! :biggrin:

yeah and Burger with the lot I will be there for Xmas and I will be sure to smash a burger with the lot sum hot chips with eater bbq sauce .

sorry America but ******* mayo on burger is the most disgusting thing ive ever encountered . I lived in Northern Ireland for 6 months and they have the best hot chips on the planet they put curry sauce on em and wow they are awesome.

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 20:11
Aussie burgers back in '66-'67 weren't much to brag about. Beets on them? And fried eggs? An acquired taste for sure. :wink:My dad was told that there was a burger joint in Adelaide that sold American-style hamburgers. Well, off we go on a long weekend from Geelong to South Australia. It was long trip in that '63 Ford Cortina but we got there and bought a burger!:)

My dad went back in '73 for a few months and returned with stories of the American fast food that was there then. Forget that, I thought, give me 20 cents worth of chip and a couple pieces of flounder!! Man, lay on that malted vinegar, salt the hell out of it, tear a hole in the wrapping and get outta the way...:wink:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/1965_Ford_Cortina_De_Luxe.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/1965_Ford_Cortina_De_Luxe.jpg.html)

baker72
September 08, 2017, 20:48
:angel:there is reason we have a hate love of the pommys.

your question is one that is asked by many Americanos, they ask stuff like are there roos everywhere or do you have super markets or roads , can a croc get in house, everything there can kill u right ?etc etc.
yes I've had some silly questions over the years and it just not people taking the piss.

Since you keep asking it I will answer it. No I'm not going to nick your lawn mower, I might drink all your beer though.:angel: here let me try to explain.

see when they banned slavery they the English still needed cheap labor so any Irish Scotts Walsh was fair game.
My great great great great great (not sure on the greats)grand mother was accused of stealing a shirt (Bullshit) for this "crime" she got a sentence of 20 years to life in the penal Conley, We have all this info because the English keep great records.

They sent her on a convict ship aka a ex slaver to Australia, she never saw her family again. locked below decks for the voyage many died in route. you can guess what happened to young girls and boys at the hands of the crew :sad:.
she survived the lovely trip as she was tough bird. after 6 years as a slave where if tried to escape they could kill her or beat and rape for what ever English reason they wanted, she gained her freedom or was granted it by the English nice of them to do so don't you think. she then married and lumber jack and that's how part of my family started in oz

The rest came on steam ships a little later we call that part of family puassys .

do we hate the English yes :) but not really, do we hate cops yep f%&king hate em . will we steal from the government hell yes from our mates hell no.

Are we nation of thieves nope are we a nation of hard C&*ts. F&*king a right mate.

I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney in a lovely place call Campbelltown, my home was in a even nicer part of C town called Airds this was the 1980s rough as your grandmum bum. Now Andy hearing this probably thinks I might of been a thief as a young bloke lol maybe but maybe not.
Airds was where I learnt its best to hit first and hit often. There is no chit chat before a fight where I'm from, if you start talking shit in the pub you will get bashed.

Aussie now days seems softer to me . the boys like their shopping but a day at the SCG watching Australia smash who ever is still one the great joys of life

Cheers

Will


That be all fine and good, but tha burning question remains, do ya buy that meat, them criket things, and the balls, or do ya do as your ancestors, what be yours be mine, if'd I be quicker than you!:wink:


I actually mentioned once, that I'd spent a little time in Aussi land, and the person I was speaking too, and being very well educated to boot, actually said, I'd never go there, nothing but criminals live there.

She was serious, and I didn't have the heart to tell her otherwise.:sad:

Very pretty, but very dumb!:)

enbloc8
September 08, 2017, 20:48
But what if the judge shows up with a seein-eye dawg...? :confused: :facepalm:

Shheeee-it !

Iff'n I had an L1A1 that held anywhere close to 1 MOA, I would have 27 eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was.



:highpower:



.................

baker72
September 08, 2017, 20:51
yeah my wife doesn't much like a burger with the lot but I miss it. holy crap all the Adelaide , south oz I went there once and once was enough:rofl:

Aussie burgers back in '66-'67 weren't much to brag about. Beets on them? And fried eggs? An acquired taste for sure. :wink:My dad was told that there was a burger joint in Adelaide that sold American-style hamburgers. Well, off we go on a long weekend from Geelong to South Australia. It was long trip in that '63 Ford Cortina but we got there and bought a burger!:)

My dad went back in '73 for a few months and returned with stories of the American fast food that was there then. Forget that, I thought, give me 20 cents worth of chip and a couple pieces of flounder!! Man, lay on that malted vinegar, salt the hell out of it, tear a hole in the wrapping and get outta the way...:wink:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/Texgunner/1965_Ford_Cortina_De_Luxe.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Texgunner/media/1965_Ford_Cortina_De_Luxe.jpg.html)

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 20:54
yeah my wife doesn't much like a burger with the lot but I miss it. holy crap all the Adelaide , south oz I went there once and once was enough:rofl:

Yeah, but didya get a burger? :D. It was along f*ckin' way in the backseat of that Ford.!

yellowhand
September 08, 2017, 21:00
:angel:there is reason we have a hate love of the pommys.

your question is one that is asked by many Americanos, they ask stuff like are there roos everywhere or do you have super markets or roads , can a croc get in house, everything there can kill u right ?etc etc.
yes I've had some silly questions over the years and it just not people taking the piss.

Since you keep asking it I will answer it. No I'm not going to nick your lawn mower, I might drink all your beer though.:angel: here let me try to explain.

see when they banned slavery they the English still needed cheap labor so any Irish Scotts Walsh was fair game.
My great great great great great (not sure on the greats)grand mother was accused of stealing a shirt (Bullshit) for this "crime" she got a sentence of 20 years to life in the penal Conley, We have all this info because the English keep great records.

They sent her on a convict ship aka a ex slaver to Australia, she never saw her family again. locked below decks for the voyage many died in route. you can guess what happened to young girls and boys at the hands of the crew :sad:.
she survived the lovely trip as she was tough bird. after 6 years as a slave where if tried to escape they could kill her or beat and rape for what ever English reason they wanted, she gained her freedom or was granted it by the English nice of them to do so don't you think. she then married and lumber jack and that's how part of my family started in oz

The rest came on steam ships a little later we call that part of family puassys .

do we hate the English yes :) but not really, do we hate cops yep f%&king hate em . will we steal from the government hell yes from our mates hell no.

Are we nation of thieves nope are we a nation of hard C&*ts. F&*king a right mate.

I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney in a lovely place call Campbelltown, my home was in a even nicer part of C town called Airds this was the 1980s rough as your grandmum bum. Now Andy hearing this probably thinks I might of been a thief as a young bloke lol maybe but maybe not.
Airds was where I learnt its best to hit first and hit often. There is no chit chat before a fight where I'm from, if you start talking shit in the pub you will get bashed.

Aussie now days seems softer to me . the boys like their shopping but a day at the SCG watching Australia smash who ever is still one the great joys of life

Cheers

Will

I did enjoy my short stay there in 1970, lovely people, who understood that crop of yanks visiting, and all took great pains to keep us safe from ourselves.:D
Actually, anytime when I think of down under, its always with a smile and a tip of my hat.:bow::bow::bow:

baker72
September 08, 2017, 21:04
Yeah, but didya get a burger? :D. It was along f*ckin' way in the backseat of that Ford.!

lol yeah we did & they talk funny in south oz. we drove from Sydney to south Australia in HQ wagon across the hayes plains to visit family that's a nice place I guess, there is bloke there that own the name burger king so burger king cant use the name so theyre csl hungry jacks but either way its nasty

ExCdnSoldierInTx
September 08, 2017, 21:35
It's good news for me then,

Hey y'all, send me all your C1a and C1A1s please. I carried them in Service and used them overseas, so it seems that by me handling them and giving my approval, the value will triple.
I'll charge the bargain price of an even 1K per rifle, an absolute steal, apparently. :wink:

baker72
September 08, 2017, 21:52
It's good news for me then,

Hey y'all, send me all your C1a and C1A1s please. I carried them in Service and used them overseas, so it seems that by me handling them and giving my approval, the value will triple.
I'll charge the bargain price of an even 1K per rifle, an absolute steal, apparently. :wink:

how old are ya mate ? hahaha must be old as bru

where and when did Canada use a C1A1 in a war , was it the gulf war ? or had they changed by then , what do they carrier now.
reckon the Aussie army would have to be Vietnam, or was it the same G man he said he carried one in brit army into harms way , but what was the Falkland war ? or gulf war

I just looked it up C7 1988 to present

baker72
September 08, 2017, 21:59
interesting post that would make sense .

The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?

tdb59
September 08, 2017, 22:05
....


sorry America but ******* mayo on burger is the most disgusting thing ive ever encountered ....

Mayonnaise on a hamburger ? That is what them soup-sipping froglegged Quebcois bastards do.

NOT Americans !

https://youtu.be/PYzOFfl2c-M

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PYzOFfl2c-M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

baker72
September 08, 2017, 22:19
Mayonnaise on a hamburger ? That is what them soup-sipping froglegged Quebcois bastards do.

NOT Americans !

https://youtu.be/PYzOFfl2c-M

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PYzOFfl2c-M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

balls mate ive seen them do it! a toasted bun needs butter not mayo

the gman
September 08, 2017, 22:21
SNIP Drivel

So for all the name callers it is way more fun to call people names like LIAR and CRACK SMOKING AUSSIE. The Gun Plumber who likes to call me a liar for no other reason than he doesnít like competition is as he refers to himself an arrogant bastard, I could add a few more descriptive words to that but I donít care to call him names.
Now GMAN according to you, you are some kind of Copper and hats off to you mate but I expect more from my Law Enforcement than being a name caller. Now maybe you are actually a really decent human being in real life and your online persona is the vent you need after a work day doing whatever you do. I can accept that. The bashing that you instigated on this forum is unreasonable and unfair given that any of you bashers could have called me and discussed your questions with me in person, my number is in the add. Your statements about me personally and my personal habits are not funny, nor warranted. As to your lawyers name and address, again mate you go off half cocked all the time. Calm down.
Back to Hueyville, if you and a few others would like to buy a rifle together then its $3895 plus delivery.
I need to know if you want Ironwood Design Furniture or Aussie Coachwood and F1 or Std Muzzle device. Once you get it, put it through its paces, makes sure itís well documented and if itís not the best L1A1 you own give me a call because I want to know what your issues are.
Kind regards to all the sane people on the forum,
Anthony.
Crocs Gunshop
1-505-757-3461

Mate, you were the one making comments that you thought what I said was libelous. In which case, I invited you to have at it and offered to let you have my attorney's name. I don't hide behind a keyboard, I gave you my real name and where I live. Put up or shut up.

I made fun of your ad and your claims because they were so outrageous and your characterizations of anyone other than yourself as being idiots who don't know shit about the L1A1 were downright dumb, plumb arrogant and ridiculous. Was I harsh? Yep. My wife has the patience of a saint to put up with me but I am a Yorkshireman, born and raised and yes, I'm blunt and I have zero tolerance for bull shit. I'm willing to apologize for some of my less than kind comments but the essence of my complaints about your claims still stands.

You made some bold claims and seem butt hurt that someone would have the temerity to call you on them. Not only that, I offered you the opportunity to demonstrate your claims, have them verified and have me eat shit. Hell, others offered to chip in for ammo and provide ranges but you refuse to participate. You can claim all you want but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and you won't even take a seat at the table.

I don't know how many rifles you've built, but I'm willing to bet Mark Graham has you beat by several thousand. No, he's not an Aussie but that doesn't make you any better than him because you lived in Lithgow for some period of time. I have a genuine love affair with the L1A1 from the plastic one I had when I was a kid to the times I got shoot them in the Army Cadets through when I was first issued one 29 years ago in basic training and on through Desert Storm to this very day. I'm building a really special FAL right now that will be my patrol rifle when I change agencies in November to serve with the Sheriff's Office.

I've spent a LOT of money on FAL's and the L1A1, trying to wring the best out of it, using fresh barrel blanks, heavier profiled barrels and yes, tighter chambers with 1-10 twist barrels. When I can be bothered, I'll dig one out I built over a decade ago with a heavy profile, match chambered 1-10 twist barrel with an OPS inc brake, Izzy HB gas block, screwed onto a stainless DSA (LMT) receiver and a Birdman fully adjustable stock with pretty good trigger. Even with FGMM, it would only shoot MOA every now and again and it has a MUCH stiffer barrel than anything you think QPQ does to a standard profile L1A1 barrel.

I find it curious you claim to have solved the FAL/L1A1 accuracy issue yet Lithgow, with almost unlimited funds, resources and employees couldn't, even when they designed and manufactured the manually operated target version of the SLR. An esteemed member here actually has one of those rifles and he has stated, in this very thread, that it is hit and miss as to when it will shoot MOA. From this, we can deduce several things:

1. With limited funds in nowheresville NM, Croc, the self taught gunsmidt, who simply by dint of having once lived in Lithgow and lifting a few pints with some blokes who once worked there, has succeeded where a national arms factory, who actually employed his drinking buddies has failed.

2. Having succeeded, Croc has decided that anyone who challenges his assertions has to cough up around $4,000 to determine if this is true or not. Natch, there is no chance to get your money back if he's full of shit.

3. Croc is the king of all FAL smiths, no matter their training, their experience and their reputation because he says so.

OR

4. Croc is full of shit, makes bullshit claims he can't back up and makes childish threats he also cannot back up.

I'm personally going with #4 but others can make up their own minds... :wink:

the gman
September 08, 2017, 22:45
how old are ya mate ? hahaha must be old as bru

where and when did Canada use a C1A1 in a war , was it the gulf war ? or had they changed by then , what do they carrier now.
reckon the Aussie army would have to be Vietnam, or was it the same G man he said he carried one in brit army into harms way , but what was the Falkland war ? or gulf war

I just looked it up C7 1988 to present

Op Granby mate. I served with B Squadron, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, REME LAD attached from C Squadron, 17th/21st Lancers LAD REME, based out of Swinton Barracks, Munster, BFPO 17.

I personally DGAF if you like or dislike the English but hanging on to the past is worthless. Or if everyone talked like you, they would blame you and every Aussie for the absolutely disgusting way the Aborigines were treated until very recently. See how that works??

baker72
September 08, 2017, 23:20
[QUOTE=the gman;4475692]Op Granby mate. I served with B Squadron, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, REME LAD attached from C Squadron, 17th/21st Lancers LAD REME, based out of Swinton Barracks, Munster, BFPO 17.

I personally DGAF if you like or dislike the English but hanging on to the past is worthless. Or if everyone talked like you, they would blame you and every Aussie for the absolutely disgusting way the Aborigines were treated until very recently. See how that works??[/QUOTE

we all know the English killed the natives right of the bat, infact they recently uncovered mass graves. Yes Australia has lots to answer for its treatment of the natives especially in the 50s and 60s its still not great.

seems like you do give a F&*k or you wouldn't have posted

btw see where I said do we hate the English YES no not really :angel:. that means no we don't or I don't, it was a joke.

you took what your people did to mine personally it wasn't directed at you or any brit any where . I for one am grateful if it didn't happen I wouldn't be here or worse I might of been born in England and I would have no teeth at all.<------ joke
my description of coming to Australia via the force relocation British empire was too much to take <----- joke
don't hate yourself mate you didn't do it and I wasn't there :). <-----joke

that's cool that u was in the brit army. N Ireland ? I was there in 1990 I stayed with some catho mates, I never drank so much even for an Aussie in form it was a lot.

Cheers:beer: Will

baker72
September 08, 2017, 23:25
hahaha

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g49/baker1972/KUNGFU1972/Pictures/furinture%20for%20sale/01haters-thumb-400x300_zpsdfflaeq8.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/baker1972/media/KUNGFU1972/Pictures/furinture%20for%20sale/01haters-thumb-400x300_zpsdfflaeq8.jpg.html)

baker72
September 08, 2017, 23:29
I did enjoy my short stay there in 1970, lovely people, who understood that crop of yanks visiting, and all took great pains to keep us safe from ourselves.:D
Actually, anytime when I think of down under, its always with a smile and a tip of my hat.:bow::bow::bow:
bloody ripper mate. http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g49/baker1972/new%20stuff/55%20buick/IMG_9345_zpsq7kub1lx.png (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/baker1972/media/new%20stuff/55%20buick/IMG_9345_zpsq7kub1lx.png.html)

Texgunner
September 08, 2017, 23:44
balls mate ive seen them do it! a toasted bun needs butter not mayo

:rofl: True story-We hadn't been in Australia very long before we were invited to a beach outing with some other Americans and Aussies who worked with my dad at ALCOA. Well, the Aussie ladies brought sandwiches and passed them around. I took a big bite and almost gagged. There was no mayo, no mustard, but plenty of butter. We American kids thought WTF is this? One by one, we buried our samitches in the sand.

When I make a burger at home, I put mustard under the meat patty, and mayo on the other bun, top o' the "salad". Mmmmm. Heretic. :tongue:

Okay, now back to the argume...uh, serious discussion! :)
I can't wait to see how it turns out!:wink:

Andy the Aussie
September 08, 2017, 23:55
Mark the ball! :beer::beer::beer:

Go Geelong Cats!! ..... aerial Ping Pong ??/ Or Poofter Ball as it is also known.... ;)

yeah and Burger with the lot I will be there for Xmas and I will be sure to smash a burger with the lot sum hot chips with eater bbq sauce .

sorry America but ******* mayo on burger is the most disgusting thing ive ever encountered . I lived in Northern Ireland for 6 months and they have the best hot chips on the planet they put curry sauce on em and wow they are awesome. ...funny you tossers got to burgers, just back from the local take away with a couple of works burgers and chips...!!! Works = Patty, Cheese, Pineapple, Egg, Bacon, Lettuce, Tomato, Beetroot and BBQ sauce. Just ate it and typing that out makes my mouth water still....and yes, WTH is it with mayo on a burger..... I will call the pope and have that declared a SIN !!



And AIRDS .....LOL Not saying a word mate.... ;)

Texgunner
September 09, 2017, 00:00
..... aerial Ping Pong ??/ Or Poofter Ball as it is also known.... ;)



:rofl: That's what my mates over there called American football!

Andy the Aussie
September 09, 2017, 00:50
There is that as well... I mean all those pads and helmets and stopping all the bloody time. Get hold of that ball and run the damn thing up...:D:D:beer:

the gman
September 09, 2017, 02:10
[QUOTE=the gman;4475692]Op Granby mate. I served with B Squadron, Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, REME LAD attached from C Squadron, 17th/21st Lancers LAD REME, based out of Swinton Barracks, Munster, BFPO 17.

I personally DGAF if you like or dislike the English but hanging on to the past is worthless. Or if everyone talked like you, they would blame you and every Aussie for the absolutely disgusting way the Aborigines were treated until very recently. See how that works??[/QUOTE

we all know the English killed the natives right of the bat, infact they recently uncovered mass graves. Yes Australia has lots to answer for its treatment of the natives especially in the 50s and 60s its still not great.

seems like you do give a F&*k or you wouldn't have posted

btw see where I said do we hate the English YES no not really :angel:. that means no we don't or I don't, it was a joke.

you took what your people did to mine personally it wasn't directed at you or any brit any where . I for one am grateful if it didn't happen I wouldn't be here or worse I might of been born in England and I would have no teeth at all.<------ joke
my description of coming to Australia via the force relocation British empire was too much to take <----- joke
don't hate yourself mate you didn't do it and I wasn't there :). <-----joke

that's cool that u was in the brit army. N Ireland ? I was there in 1990 I stayed with some catho mates, I never drank so much even for an Aussie in form it was a lot.

Cheers:beer: Will

No worries. Only blokes I found who could keep up with British forces when boozing was the Aussies and the Kiwis. The Canucks gave it a good try but Americans fell by the wayside. ;);) The Germans could never understand us drinking until we passed out, while the Belgians and the Dutch were damn good sports but knew when to quit. The French cheese eating surrender monkeys started at lunch with wine but really couldn't handle a lot of beer. Norwegians and Danes were also great drinkers but not to excess. The Swedish guys could handle their ale but the price of booze there made your head spin.

These days, I'm a lightweight and couldn't drink a six pack without feeling like shit in the morning. :cry::cry:

Yes, I was in NI a few times, last time was in 97/98 with a regiment who recruited from NI so it was a bit of a boozy tour. Most of the population were really good folks but the criminals and terrorists on both sides of the conflict screwed it up for the rest of them.

RG Coburn
September 09, 2017, 07:39
....and still no response from builder,as to when and where he is going to prove the claims of his build,with a range demo. Were I expecting that much money from a mix-master parts gun,I'd damn sure prove that it would indeed do what I said it would.

raubvogel
September 09, 2017, 10:44
http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/016/MI0000016463.jpg?partner=allrovi.com

So you used to work in a strip-a-gram store? :whistling:

tdb59
September 09, 2017, 10:51
So you used to work in a strip-a-gram store?

Whaddya mean used to ?


All of the earnings go to reloading components and schnitzengruben.....



................

raubvogel
September 09, 2017, 11:09
Whaddya mean used to ?


All of the earnings go to reloading components and schnitzengruben.....

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqnnklBsY31qclv83o1_500.gif

Ant W
September 09, 2017, 12:44
FOR THE AUSSIE.

Just so you all know what's going on here.

"There's a couple of blokes feeding at the brasco and their mouths are full".

Texgunner
September 09, 2017, 13:48
"There's a couple of blokes feeding at the brasco and their mouths are full".

"Full of shit." :rofl:

2barearms
September 09, 2017, 14:10
I've dealt with numerous
FALs and M14's. i talked with Elmer Ballance
some time back and he stated that the easiest
battle rifle to build was the M14. The FAL has about
127 parts and the M14 has about 65. They both have
shortcomings but on the battlefield I'd probably
take a specialized AR with me. I personally
believe the M14 to be a superior weapon vs the FAL.
The inch pattern rifles are not in any way
ever going to be repurposed as sniper rifles.
period! You might as well go ahead and try
building a Turk G1 sniper rifle while you're at it.

Having said all that there are numerous issues
'accurizing' an FAL not the least of which is the
gas system. How would you make a high performance
gas system for an inch pattern rifle? What about the
bolt and carrier lock up. As you tighten the headspace
you increase the odds of malfunctions. Out of
spec ammo would be a real problem. it would
almost certainly limit the use of military ball ammo.
Using a 1 in 10 twist would almost guarantee
having to shoot a 168gr match round.....

The fun in having an FAL is for most of us here
a reliving of the Main Battle Rifle glory days and trying
to turn them in to sniper rifles is a complete waste
of time and money.

This certainly isn't the first time someone has brought
this particular ad of his to the boards attention
and likely won't be last. The issue I take with all this
is that it's about some romantic notion that the
L1A1 is some over looked battle rifle that missed
it's calling and he was sent to us to right that wrong.
When I look at the way Tony comes across I hear Ron Smith.
It's the arrogance of you're the ONLY one
who knows how to do it right crap. Tony is an
expert at building Smith Enreprize M14s too.
Here in the highly litigious gun smith world
where you sue customers for saying things that
you disagree with I'd suggest not hurting Tony's
feelings he might sue you. I'm sure Tony and Ron
would prefer uneducated sheep for customers and have bulging
bank accounts.....ijs.

Ant W
September 09, 2017, 15:11
This is not an ordinary FAL/L1A1 rifle so you cannot ask ordinary FAL/L1A1 builders about this rifles as they do not know anything about it. Mark has just proved us right.

This Gun Plumber (GP) bloke, Markís his name, has called me a liar on many occasions
His opinion of my rifles is that they donít shoot Sub MOA just like his guns donít either.
His opinions about my rifles and my person are based upon assumptions that are all false.
Markís line of questioning is based upon a standard military rifle with a 1/12 twist, M80 ball chambering. These questions about that rifle do not apply to our rifles as they were built to an alternative target specification,
Since Mark (GP) has never owned, touched or fired any of my hand built rifles then his opinion about my Rifles can only be based upon two sources of very inadequate information, those being;
1. Our add on Gun Broker,
2. His assumptions, and with a good dose of,
3. His hatred for anyone he perceives is a competitor.
How does Mark (GP) form a rational opinion based purely upon assumptions. He doesnít, but as he says heís an arrogant bastard. For example;
1. GP in subsequent postings has asked questions based upon his assumption that we started with a M80 ball Chamber on our barrels. He asks ďHow do you recut a M80 chamber thatís already bigger. Our only answer is that we are not recutting a M80 Ball chamber so the question pertains to a different rifle.
2. GP also stuck his boots in his mouth another time as well, We said that our barrel is lighter than a Mil spec barrel because of the twist rate. GP went off like a baboon with a hot splinter in his ass. GP stated that a faster twist rate adds material and therefore the barrel would be heavier. OK letís all pretend that were stupid and go along with GP defying the laws of physics here and call GP a miracle worker.
3. Based upon GPís published comments about meloniting it is clear that he has had nothing to very little to do with the meloniting process as it is used with firearms and specifically L1A1 firearms.
GP has called me a lair and defamed me in front of my peers, he has published claims that are false and misleading.
GP can disbelieve my rifles, that is his prerogative.

Ant W
September 09, 2017, 15:14
For the AUSSIE
Now fellas here comes 2barearms, another forum brain fart.
He's a Smith hater.
Another one, its just unbelievable.

yellowhand
September 09, 2017, 15:23
Damn, someone needs a hug and a new pink knitted sweater, so sad.:rofl:

Ant, ya made the claims and to date, you ain't backed them up.

Borrowing a phase from our noted Texas folks here about, Ant, you are just a big hat and no cattle, AKA, a blowhard.

tdb59
September 09, 2017, 15:25
For the AUSSIE
Now fellas here comes 2barearms, another forum brain fart.
He's a Smith hater.
Another one, its just unbelievable.

Name calling is not your best response, one might hope.

Even if " someone else started it ", that is not germane to the question posed.



Show the targets, please. Or better yet, video.

Even a lowly smart phone will record video.

That would be a sure way to silence your critics.





.............................

yellowhand
September 09, 2017, 15:33
Name calling is not your best response, one might hope.

Even if " someone else started it ", that is not germane to the question posed.



Show the targets, please. Or better yet, video.

Even a lowly smart phone will record video.

That would be a sure way to silence your critics.





.............................

At this point, appears he will never do that, might even be so brain damaged, to believe that all publicity is good publicity.:rofl:

the gman
September 09, 2017, 15:42
This is not an ordinary FAL/L1A1 rifle so you cannot ask ordinary FAL/L1A1 builders about this rifles as they do not know anything about it. Mark has just proved us right.

This Gun Plumber (GP) bloke, Markís his name, has called me a liar on many occasions
His opinion of my rifles is that they donít shoot Sub MOA just like his guns donít either.
His opinions about my rifles and my person are based upon assumptions that are all false.
Markís line of questioning is based upon a standard military rifle with a 1/12 twist, M80 ball chambering. These questions about that rifle do not apply to our rifles as they were built to an alternative target specification,
Since Mark (GP) has never owned, touched or fired any of my hand built rifles then his opinion about my Rifles can only be based upon two sources of very inadequate information, those being;
1. Our add on Gun Broker,
2. His assumptions, and with a good dose of,
3. His hatred for anyone he perceives is a competitor.
How does Mark (GP) form a rational opinion based purely upon assumptions. He doesnít, but as he says heís an arrogant bastard. For example;
1. GP in subsequent postings has asked questions based upon his assumption that we started with a M80 ball Chamber on our barrels. He asks ďHow do you recut a M80 chamber thatís already bigger. Our only answer is that we are not recutting a M80 Ball chamber so the question pertains to a different rifle.
2. GP also stuck his boots in his mouth another time as well, We said that our barrel is lighter than a Mil spec barrel because of the twist rate. GP went off like a baboon with a hot splinter in his ass. GP stated that a faster twist rate adds material and therefore the barrel would be heavier. OK letís all pretend that were stupid and go along with GP defying the laws of physics here and call GP a miracle worker.
3. Based upon GPís published comments about meloniting it is clear that he has had nothing to very little to do with the meloniting process as it is used with firearms and specifically L1A1 firearms.
GP has called me a lair and defamed me in front of my peers, he has published claims that are false and misleading.
GP can disbelieve my rifles, that is his prerogative.

Bollocks. There's someone on this site whose mouth is full of shit and it ain't GP. You claim you got the last of Pat Jones' barrels (who BTW, was a personal friend) which, if I am not mistaken, were sold with a finished chamber. Now you claim you got them unchambered. :uhoh:

Can you change your narrative much when called on your shit? Don't flatter yourself; you are NO threat to GP. :rolleyes: Unlike you, GP has consistently defended attacks on his credibility from the likes of DSA, other defunct gunsmiths, assholes and general bullshitters by the use of FACTS, documentation and open sharing on his findings for all to judge. Not ONCE has he been shown to be a liar or bullshitter.

Lest you think I am a Mark Graham fanboy, think again. He and I have gone round and round on many subjects over the years but his credibility has never been in doubt nor is his thirst for knowledge on all things FAL and his ability to correctly identify issues with the weapon system. Here's a classic example:

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417148

Until I see something as cogent, well written and meticulously documented as that thread that UTTERLY discredited DSA's paid shill, R1shooter, from YOU, I'm going to call BULLSHIT on anything you have to say. :bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap:

Ant W
September 09, 2017, 15:43
Now Mr YELLOWHAND,
Did you want to buy a rifle?
Anyone can have shoot before they buy it.

Ant W
September 09, 2017, 15:48
Well Mr GMAN again you go off half cocked.
Were not knocking ole Mark your mate, he's just not right this time around that's all.

the gman
September 09, 2017, 15:49
While I'm at it, GP greatly assisted this community by reaching out to his wide network of contacts and obtained the correct FN specs for the para recoil springs. He then provided these specs to others, for NO material gain on his part, other than to advance the reliability of the FAL. I ask again, what have YOU shared to advance this weapon system? NOTHING. :facepalm: